[00:00] <DPic> Okay, who's here?
[00:01]  * johnc4510-laptop +1
[00:01] <johnc4510-laptop> hmmm
[00:02] <DPic> Well, we could start talking but maybe it's be best to wait a few minutes..
[00:02] <DPic> it'd*
[00:03] <johnc4510-laptop> DPic: yes
[00:03] <johnc4510-laptop> and tyche is here for meeting too
[00:04] <DPic> cool
[00:17]  * johnc4510-laptop anyone else here for a marketing meeting?
[00:17] <maccam94> i heard there was one from DPic
[00:17] <johnc4510-laptop> ah :)
[00:17] <maccam94> supposedly starting... 15 minutes ago
[00:17] <johnc4510-laptop> yep
[00:18] <johnc4510-laptop> not many have shown up
[00:18] <DPic> yeah, disappointing :/ but we can still discuss plans
[00:19] <johnc4510-laptop> ok, we better start then, i have to leave in 40 mins. now
[00:19] <DPic> okay
[00:20] <maccam94> so
[00:20] <DPic> so, for the hardy release, we want to have a big release campaign
[00:21] <DPic> so far we know we want to press release the local teams can adopt and release themselves
[00:21] <DPic> any other ideas?
[00:21] <maccam94> we need to get fliers in places where people will pick them up
[00:21] <DPic> and for that, we need fliers
[00:21] <maccam94> indeed
[00:22] <johnc4510-laptop> are there premade fliers from earlier releases
[00:22] <johnc4510-laptop> or
[00:22] <maccam94> so they probably need tweaking
[00:22] <DPic> yeah
[00:22] <johnc4510-laptop> have we checked the art team for new ones for hardy heron
[00:22] <DPic> we could always start fresh and just use the past fliers for ideas
[00:23] <maccam94> the art team doesn't seem.... very "with" it, but i'm sure if we asked them they'd make one
[00:23] <DPic> we haven't, does the art team make fliers and those sorts of materials?
[00:23] <DPic> that would be good. i'll get in contact with them
[00:23] <johnc4510-laptop> not sure, but they could point us to the newest artwork for hardy
[00:24] <maccam94> i think it's supposed to be fairly similar to gutsy
[00:24] <DPic> true
[00:24] <maccam94> the big redesign got postponed
[00:24] <DPic> yeah, that's probably for the best
[00:24] <maccam94> :-\
[00:25] <maccam94> i would have liked the refresh, considering it's now competing against glossy UI's like OSX's and Vista's
[00:25] <DPic> i think they need more time to work on it, but just a simple refresh would have been nice
[00:25] <DPic> so, for the press release-- how can we make that effective?
[00:25] <johnc4510-laptop> we _can_ use ideas from past fliers for the content
[00:26] <DPic> ^ yeah, already said that :)
[00:26] <johnc4510-laptop> kk
[00:26] <DPic> we really want to start being a communication and resources hub for local marketing
[00:27] <DPic> we need to be able to contact all the LoCo's for whatever out current campaign is
[00:27] <DPic> which we can do through the loco contacts list
[00:27] <johnc4510-laptop> canonical puts out a press release themselves so we need something we can use to blog and digg etc and to let the loco's use
[00:27] <DPic> yeah, out own press release wouldn't be necessary
[00:28] <DPic> but we should focus on attracting more people who wouldn't normally hear about ubuntu
[00:29] <DPic> i created this page which we should work on a lot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoActivism
[00:29] <johnc4510-laptop> looking
[00:29] <DPic> as well as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoMediaCoverage
[00:31] <johnc4510-laptop> ok, as a start, *I* would like to see us getting the loco's involved in distributing fliers about the upcoming release
[00:31] <DPic> me too
[00:31] <DPic> and CD's too, of course
[00:32] <johnc4510-laptop> you are going to have a hard time with cd's i think
[00:32] <DPic> teams can't solely operate online, they have to get out and hit the streets to erach out to more people
[00:32] <somerville32> Maybe create a template letter to send to local media agencies?
[00:32] <DPic> somerville32: canonical issues their own press release that can be used
[00:32] <johnc4510-laptop> most of the loco's however would be receptive to distributing fliers
[00:33] <somerville32> DPic: Okay. So how about encouraging loco teams to forward that press release to local media agencies?
[00:33] <johnc4510-laptop> i think somerville32 is meaning something the loco's could send to their local media
[00:34] <johnc4510-laptop> somerville32: :)
[00:34] <DPic> yeah, definitely
[00:34] <somerville32> I'm sure that some local agencies would print it if not for lack of something else :P
[00:34] <DPic> the loco media coverage page is a good guide for that
[00:34] <boredandblogging> locos probably want to do some customization to it
[00:34] <DPic> why will CD's be difficult?
[00:34] <DPic> they might not be immediately available
[00:34] <somerville32> Maybe we could have an easy step program? "Want to help promote Ubuntu 8.04? Step 1. Step 3. Step 4."
[00:35] <DPic> but when they are, they should be distributed as widely as possible
[00:35] <desertc> specifically about the next ubuntu release, maybe even covering a release party.
[00:35] <boredandblogging> in reality, LoCos need to make their own CDs
[00:35] <maccam94> really?
[00:35] <boredandblogging> approved LoCos get a couple hundred
[00:35] <johnc4510-laptop> DPic: we could have the loco's insert times and dates of loco installfest on the fliers to give access to cd's
[00:35] <maccam94> they probably wouldn't come out as nice as official ones tho
[00:36] <boredandblogging> if you aren't approved, you might get 20 or 30 max
[00:36] <boredandblogging> asking all the individual loco members to request CDs might help, but don't depend on shipit
[00:36] <johnc4510-laptop> no
[00:36] <DPic> well keep in mind, individuals on launchpad who are active can get ten-- and if each unapproved team has several active people on launchpad, they can get a hundred or so as well
[00:36] <johnc4510-laptop> boredandblogging: hey
[00:37] <DPic> fliering and postering is something we should add to the loco activism page
[00:37] <DPic> and we could link to our resources page when we have uploaded thos kinds of materials
[00:38] <johnc4510-laptop> as i said earlier, let the loco's use the release flier to promote installfest or release parties in their area
[00:38] <boredandblogging> have you guys looked at the old spreadbuntu stuff?
[00:38] <DPic> i have, yeah
[00:38] <johnc4510-laptop> boredandblogging: i have not yet
[00:38] <johnc4510-laptop> :(
[00:38] <johnc4510-laptop> but there should be good ideas there
[00:38] <DPic> i put the useful stuff here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Materials
[00:39] <DPic> as far as materials go
[00:39] <boredandblogging> http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/
[00:39] <desertc> boredandblogging: you mean spreadUbuntu?
[00:39] <boredandblogging> desertc: hah, yeah
[00:39] <boredandblogging> it can be used for a starting point
[00:39] <boredandblogging> or just for ideas
[00:39] <johnc4510-laptop> agreed
[00:39] <desertc> spreadbuntu is a windowing theme
[00:40] <johnc4510-laptop> DPic: is that a flier or a cd cover?
[00:40] <DPic> which?
[00:40] <johnc4510-laptop> last link, under flier
[00:40] <desertc> boredandblogging: yeah, spent a lot of time looking at DIY marketing, actually
[00:40] <boredandblogging> need to encourage locos to think big, like get a huge banner and hang it where a lot of people will see it
[00:41] <johnc4510-laptop> DPic: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Materials
[00:41] <desertc> boredandblogging: How many of these assets do you consider ready-to-use ??
[00:41] <DPic> johnc4510-laptop: it's a flier
[00:41] <johnc4510-laptop> kk
[00:41] <johnc4510-laptop> and post the fliers anyplace that will let them
[00:42] <johnc4510-laptop> and they should be asking to post it anyplace the visit during the day
[00:42] <johnc4510-laptop> fliers are cheap and something anyone in a loco can do
[00:43] <desertc> you need a double sided print for those fliers, right?
[00:43] <desertc> flyers (silly spell check)  ;)
[00:43] <DPic> desertc: yeah
[00:44] <DPic> is there anything else that people can do for the hardy release?
[00:44] <desertc> that increases the cost of production by quite a bit, just fyi
[00:45] <DPic> well, we'll have more soon
[00:45] <DPic> that one is just from the spreadUbuntu thing
[00:45] <DPic> contacting computer retailers might be good to request ubuntu and shot it off. but that's something that doesn't have to just be for the hardy release
[00:45] <DPic> show it off*
[00:45] <boredandblogging> need to get the locos excited about hardy
[00:45] <maccam94> computer retailers generally depend on windows for business
[00:46] <johnc4510-laptop> we should keep the flyers to _one_ sided productions i think
[00:46] <maccam94> there isn't an incentive to push an alternative
[00:46] <DPic> johnc4510-laptop: that wouldn't be hard to do. i don't think having double-sided options would be a bad thing though
[00:46] <desertc> boredandblogging: could canonical get the locos an advanced press release on the features of hardy?  else, is there a definitive list of new features that we can start passing around to locos?
[00:47] <maccam94> it's at feature freeze
[00:47] <DPic> Maybe what we should do, is write up press releases not for the media, but for loco teams to read what we have going and what we want them to do
[00:47] <maccam94> so yeah there should be a list up
[00:47] <maccam94> i can check
[00:47] <boredandblogging> yeah, features are set
[00:47] <johnc4510-laptop> not a bad thing, but it's not needed i don't think  we want to make this as easy on the loco's as possible, and the most cost efficient
[00:47] <boredandblogging> as for the canonical press release, I wouldn't really depend on them
[00:48] <desertc> boredandblogging: right - I understand what you're saying
[00:48] <boredandblogging> think if we can come up with something general, and let the locos customize it, it would be good enough
[00:49] <desertc> so it sounds like we need to put together a short press release based on the hardy features - something in layman's term.  one page should be ample.
[00:49] <johnc4510-laptop> boredandblogging: nice
[00:49] <DPic> we don't want to just have one thing. we'll craete a bunch of things that loco's can either use directly or customize for themselves
[00:49] <maccam94> um
[00:49] <maccam94> one thing
[00:49] <desertc> well - one thing would be the start of many things  ;)
[00:49] <maccam94> we should list ALL the features of ubuntu
[00:49] <maccam94> GENERAL things
[00:49] <maccam94> because these fliers aren't for people UPGRADING ubuntu
[00:50] <desertc> that's a good point
[00:50] <maccam94> they're for people who *don't use it yet*
[00:50] <johnc4510-laptop> should point out the advantages of ubuntu and open source
[00:50] <desertc> or - at least include the new features AND the existing features
[00:50] <desertc> however, the newsworthy part is the new release, of course
[00:50] <DPic> i remember seeing an article on digg about what was wrong with the ubuntu press release for feisty and how it should have been different
[00:50] <DPic> let me try and find it
[00:51] <maccam94> yeah me too
[00:51] <boredandblogging> no version numbers
[00:51] <johnc4510-laptop> should have links to ubuntu, forums and how the community supports with help
[00:51] <boredandblogging> like gnome 2.x.y
[00:51] <johnc4510-laptop> agreed
[00:52] <boredandblogging>
[00:52] <boredandblogging>
[00:52] <johnc4510-laptop> lol
[00:52] <boredandblogging> http://blog.gobanquet.com/index.php/why-ubuntu-804-needs-better-marketing/
[00:52] <boredandblogging> no clue what happened there
[00:52] <johnc4510-laptop> hee hee
[00:53] <desertc> one challenge will be getting someone in the locos talking to the media.  most likely they have no contacts.  there might need to be some coaching for doing it
[00:53] <DPic> thanks for finding that, i couldn't find it for some reason
[00:53] <maccam94> me neither
[00:53] <tyche> Yes, please.  Coaching is definitely needed.
[00:53] <maccam94> lol
[00:53] <DPic> desertc: yeah, and any people who are experienced with the media should contribute to the loco media coverage page
[00:53] <boredandblogging> encourage locos to create some kind of kit, with documentation and CD and send it to some local media
[00:54] <desertc> we shouldn't assume that if we make a press release on a wiki that the locos will make the effort to get it in papers.
[00:54] <johnc4510-laptop> desertc: we need to get the team leads to handle that i think
[00:54] <johnc4510-laptop> in fact as we get further along we should start cultivating the team leads to get them on board with this
[00:55] <DPic> there is the loco contacts list
[00:55] <desertc> my expectation is that even getting a few locos to get this in action will be challenging, so we should start with just a few - maybe provide coaching for the approved locos and see what happens.  It's going to be a learning experience for everyone
[00:55] <johnc4510-laptop> DPic: yes
[00:56] <johnc4510-laptop> it can be reached from the usteams page i think
[00:56]  * johnc4510-laptop sorry i've got to run    :(
[00:56] <johnc4510-laptop> i'll catch up from my logs
[00:56] <DPic> alright thanks for showing up
[00:57] <DPic> well we definitely have a good amount to work with now
[00:57] <DPic> should we move onto talking about a meeting schedule?
[00:58] <somerville32> :)
[00:58] <boredandblogging> sure
[00:59] <DPic> okay, so how often should we meet, and what should we do about timing (since we're a global team)?
[01:00] <desertc> most of us are from the us time zones
[01:00] <DPic> okay so then around this time shouldn't be a problem
[01:00] <desertc> I know I was thinking about the us-locos in this discussion
[01:00] <DPic> should we meet once a month, or twice a month?
[01:01] <boredandblogging> why not do another one in 2 weeks
[01:01] <desertc> for me, feel free to ping me whenever - if I'm online, then I'm available to help
[01:01] <boredandblogging> if no one shows up
[01:02] <DPic> boredandblogging: in 2 weeks if no one shows up?
[01:02] <desertc> I will work on writing up some notes for a press release - need to work on writing a linux speech anyway this week ;)
[01:02] <somerville32> If someone would fix the Fridge's calendar... I wouldn't miss any of the meetings because google would page my blackberry
[01:02] <DPic> what's wrong with the fridge's calendar?
[01:03] <somerville32> Won't work with google calendar
[01:03] <DPic> ah
[01:03] <somerville32> Some drupal module bug or something that is apparently fixed upstream
[01:03] <DPic> i see
[01:04] <DPic> so we all agree, every 2 weeks, at 00:00 UTC?
[01:04] <tyche> +1
[01:04] <somerville32> +1
[01:04] <boredandblogging> might also want stop by the -locoteams channel
[01:04] <boredandblogging> and see if anyone there has any ideas
[01:04] <DPic> and always on wednesday?
[01:04] <boredandblogging> or what they are planning to do
[01:04] <DPic> boredandblogging: good idea
[01:05] <DPic> does this day of the week always work for everyone?
[01:05] <boredandblogging> sure
[01:05] <maccam94> sure
[01:06] <DPic> great
[01:06] <tyche> fine
[01:06] <DPic> anything else to talk about?
[01:07] <DPic> i'll get working on the notes for this meeting, and drawing up a plan for us
[01:09] <DPic> meeting adjourned?
[01:09] <boredandblogging> sure
[01:10] <DPic> okay thanks everyone
[01:13] <desertc> !seen
[01:13] <ubotu> The seen function has not been operational for a long time.  Use /msg seenserv seen nickname instead.
[04:07] <michaelramm_mac> did i miss the marketing mtg?
[04:14] <michalski> no, starts in 2 hours
[04:14] <michalski> oh wait marketing,yes
[04:15] <michaelramm_mac> d'oh. darn UTC time!!!
[04:15] <michaelramm_mac> thanks
[06:51] <evand> good evening
[06:52] <Mithrandir> good early morning
[06:52] <bryce> heya
[06:52]  * ogra tries to get his eyes open ...
[06:52] <evand> heh
[06:54]  * Hobbsee throws some sand at ogra
[06:54] <ogra> Hobbsee, that only helps if to match a moment where i actuallly have them open :P
[06:54] <ogra> (and am not yawning)
[06:54]  * Mithrandir tickles Hobbsee
[06:55]  * Hobbsee tickles Mithrandir back, and stomps on his feet, before he levitates
[06:56] <calc> hi
[06:57]  * cjwatson blinks a few times
[06:57] <doko> good morning
[06:58]  * ArneGoetje waves
[06:58] <TheMuso> Hey folks.
[06:58] <cjwatson> asac,slangasek: ping
[06:59]  * TheMuso looks out the window and hopes the storm doesn't come this way...
[06:59] <slangasek> cjwatson: hi
[07:00] <Hobbsee> evening, cjwatson.  here's your coffee
[07:00] <cjwatson> heh
[07:01] <Hobbsee> just don't fall asleep in it :P
[07:01] <ogra> if its hot enough that will wake him up :)
[07:01] <TheMuso> aww! And I thought everybody on the team was a morning person. :)
[07:01] <cjwatson> ok, just missing asac - let's start anyway and hope he shows up
[07:01]  * ogra slowly feels the healing power of caffeine in the morning
[07:02] <cjwatson> first off, activity reports: I have four out of nine this week
[07:02] <ogra> mine just hit the list ...
[07:02] <cjwatson> please send these *before* the meeting
[07:02] <ogra> (sorry)
[07:03] <cjwatson> next the real agenda
[07:03] <slangasek> would you prefer if I started sending mine end of day Monday?
[07:03] <cjwatson>  * Actions from last week
[07:03] <cjwatson>   * Result of multi-monitor discussion with desktop team? (Bryce)
[07:03] <cjwatson> bryce: how did this go?
[07:03]  * asac hides
[07:03] <cjwatson> slangasek: no, yours was fine, I get up a little early before the meeting so I can catch up on them
[07:03] <slangasek> ok
[07:04] <bryce> cjwatson, it's come along fairly well
[07:04] <bryce> cjwatson: I have debs and screenshots up at:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Testing/XrandrGui/
[07:04] <bryce> right now I'm mostly waiting on seb128 to review/upload things
[07:05] <bryce> I was hoping to get some feedback from him on the integration, but I gather he's been busy with the new gnome stuff
[07:06] <bryce> the gui installs and runs, and it seems to work (but I found a bug when using it on a KVM)
[07:06] <bryce> most of the work has been packaging - a lot of autoconf/automake hackery
[07:06] <cjwatson> aside from the text about F9 :-), that looks pretty good; no facility for choosing a different driver?
[07:07] <bryce> right, this only uses xrandr interfaces
[07:07] <bryce> screenshot 1 and 2 are before / after
[07:07] <cjwatson> I just want to make sure that if we drop displayconfig-gtk we're not reliant on anything it does
[07:07] <bryce> screenshot 2 corresponds to what's in the debs
[07:08] <cjwatson> ah
[07:08] <bryce> well, displayconfig-gtk is essentially a fancy xorg.conf editor
[07:09] <bryce> this new tool does everything through run-time interfaces, so anything that requires xorg.conf modification is going to be out of scope for it
[07:09] <cjwatson> perhaps we should prepare some release notes text about how to do anything that's dropped
[07:09] <bryce> ok
[07:10] <cjwatson> ok, thanks
[07:10] <cjwatson>  * 5-a-day
[07:11] <cjwatson> Jono has asked that I remind everyone of the existence of 5-a-day (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day) and encourage all of you to take part
[07:11] <cjwatson> err, where relevant anyway
[07:12] <cjwatson> even if you're already doing equivalent bug work (which most of you should be, at a minimum), please also help to spread the message
[07:12] <evand> will do
[07:13] <cjwatson> the wiki page has pointers to some tools to help with this
[07:14] <calc> ok
[07:14] <doko_> hmm, so I should just call 5-a-day before a package upload?
[07:14] <cjwatson> that's one reasonable approach, yes
[07:14] <cjwatson> if you're feeling particularly enthusiastic you could hook it into dupload ;-)
[07:15] <doko_> ok, will do.
[07:16] <cjwatson> but the important bit is publicising to the community that this is something that the Ubuntu community does as a matter of course
[07:16] <TheMuso> I've certainly been thinking that it *could* be a way to encourage people testing a11y to file bugs, as they just about always post to mailing lists...
[07:17] <TheMuso> But other than that, I'll likely jump in and participate as well.
[07:17] <cjwatson> hmm, I think filing bugs is just about the only bug activity that's not part of 5-a-day
[07:17] <cjwatson> the point is to get the bug count down :-)
[07:18] <TheMuso> right
[07:19] <calc> file more bugs so you can turn around and close them? ;-)
[07:19] <cjwatson> I think that's enough on that topic :-)
[07:19] <cjwatson>  * Final call on dmraid (Luke)
[07:19] <TheMuso> Right.
[07:19] <TheMuso> If people haven't been following my reports and other IRC activity, let me bring everybody up to speed.
[07:20] <TheMuso> For several years, many consumer, and some low-end server boards have been shipping with what is known as fake raid.
[07:21] <TheMuso> Basically, the BIOS of the disk controller writes special metadata to a pair or so of disks, to make them a fake software raid, be it raid 0, 1, or 5.
[07:21] <TheMuso> Windows drivers for these controllers know what to look for, and transparently read/write this metadata as necessary, with the user not even knowing most of the time that windows is sitting on top of a RAID setup.
[07:21] <TheMuso> Dmraid is such an interface to this metadata for Linux.
[07:22] <TheMuso> However, so far from my testing, it doesn't come close to either what the BIOSs can do, or what Windows drivers do in terms of keeping the array consistant.,
[07:23] <TheMuso> So, with dmraid still not being able to reliably provide event monitoring for failed/degraded arrays, and not being able to rebuild arrays, as well as at least one BIOS on a controller I have always finding array inconsistancies when Linux has touched the array, we need to really consider whether dmraid is something we want for hardy.
[07:23] <TheMuso> From my point of view, it comes down to whether I keep actively working on it, dispite these issues, or whether I move onto other things, and keep an eye on it for hardy+1.
[07:24] <calc> perhaps whitelist it on a known working chip/bios-rev basis?
[07:24] <TheMuso> I have also discovered that kernel patching is required to allow for the use of RAID 5 via dmraid.
[07:24] <TheMuso> calc: Since it uses metadata on the hard disk, this could be possible, but the fact is, that at least one BIOS I have complains of array inconsistancies after I even do an install onto a dmraid array.
[07:24] <slangasek> what's the alternative to having dmraid enabled - having no support for the controller, or having support for it as a plain IDE/SCSI controller?
[07:25] <TheMuso> Another controller I have did not appear to be as strict, but only complained when I degraded the array.
[07:25] <TheMuso> slangasek: Only supporting it as a standard IDE/SCSI controller.
[07:25] <TheMuso>  /SATA even
[07:25]  * slangasek nods
[07:25] <TheMuso> slangasek: Which means that users who have windows on such an array could very easily destroy it.
[07:26] <slangasek> oh... :)
[07:26] <slangasek> but, you're saying that the current code isn't guaranteed to do much better for them?
[07:26] <TheMuso> slangasek: No it is not.
[07:26] <ArneGoetje> TheMuso: can we detect this situation and display a warning to the user?
[07:26] <TheMuso> Especially if the BIOS is as strict as my hpt37x controller supporting fakeraid.
[07:26] <calc> is the code not working for any of the many different brands, or just not good on certain ones?
[07:27] <cjwatson> it looks to me that the dmraid program isn't really hooked into device-mapper change events, and that it only erases the metadata if you explicitly tell it to
[07:27] <TheMuso> calc: I don't know, as I only have 2. The code works, but its a matter of makings ure the array is consistant once Linux shuts down.
[07:27] <calc> grr hpt is crap, i had trouble with one of those writing into cylinder 0 even when raid wasn't enabled :-\
[07:27] <calc> overwriting grub bootloader in the process
[07:28] <calc> TheMuso: ok
[07:28] <slangasek> hmm, hpt is the one that's now courting Linux
[07:28] <TheMuso> cjwatson: As I said in my report, there is work going on to get some stuff into the kernel to support dmraid better. There is also more userspace work going on for event monitoring.
[07:28] <calc> does intel's matrix raid stuff use dmraid?
[07:28] <cjwatson> TheMuso: was your testing just with the installer, or did you also try editing partitions in a regular system?
[07:28] <calc> getting intel's fake raid to work (if possible) would probably be a good thing
[07:28] <cjwatson> TheMuso: the reason I ask is that I notice that the installer integration does not do the same stuff that /etc/init.d/dmraid does on shutdown
[07:29] <TheMuso> cjwatson: I tried the following: 1) install windows, then Linux. 2) Install Windows, edit partitions, reboot. 3) install Linux only.
[07:29] <TheMuso> All were caught by the BIOS as possible inconsistancies on the array.
[07:29] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Well, I even tried hand-deactivating the arrays before rebooting.
[07:29] <cjwatson> though, I have to say I'm slightly surprised that the partition table is ATARAID metadata as such
[07:30] <cjwatson> I would have thought that dmraid should present a device to Linux on which parted blindly edits the sectors corresponding to the partition table, which then translate into writes to both disks
[07:30] <TheMuso> cjwatson: The partition table is totally separate to the metadata.
[07:30] <TheMuso> The metadata is at the end of the disks. The partition table is where you would normally find it.
[07:31] <cjwatson> right, so what's the metadata that needs to be updated? would that not normally only be if you added or removed disks, or if disks failed?
[07:31] <cjwatson> I'm trying to figure out why partitioning changes it
[07:31] <TheMuso> cjwatson: I don't know without digging into code. My guess something to do with state is stored in metadata, but I think this varies from controller to controller.
[07:32] <TheMuso> Well as referred to by calc, it could also be a flaky BIOS. There is no newer revisions for the board however.
[07:32] <TheMuso> And, running WIndows/DOS and doing all manner of parttion edits etc does not seem to bother the BIOS.
[07:33] <cjwatson> dmraid seems to have explicit BIOS-specific metadata handlers
[07:33] <TheMuso> Yes it does.
[07:34] <TheMuso> As all metadata is different from controller to controller.
[07:34] <calc> bug 8978 refers to the issue i had with hpt controllers doing stupid things
[07:34] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 8978 in grub "Grub - Error 21 returned" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/8978
[07:35] <TheMuso> Now. I will be getting a new system in the coming weeks, that will have 2 different dmraid compatible controllers on it. I'll be interested to see how well they are handled. One will be intel, and one will be Gigabyte.
[07:35] <ogra> i have some edubuntu users using hpt
[07:35] <asac> hmm, are there actually any bugs filed about these inconsistencies after shutdown?
[07:36]  * asac looking at dmraid lp bugs page
[07:36] <TheMuso> However my silicon image controller was not even bothered when Linux was installed. Never tried Windows+linux, as I wanted to move the dmraid testing to another box.
[07:36] <TheMuso> asac: No, as it is only with cone controller that I get the behavior.
[07:36] <TheMuso> one
[07:36] <evand> TheMuso: I have two dmraid systems that were sent to me and can help, as I've also been tasked with similar goals.
[07:37] <cjwatson> ... so at least one controller *does* work?
[07:37] <TheMuso> evand: Right, if I were to give you some quick isntructions as to build a modified alternate disk, wuould you mind having a look?
[07:37] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Yes, for a linux only install.
[07:37] <TheMuso> I can certainly try it again, if required. Need to card swap, but thats no big deal.
[07:37] <evand> TheMuso: not at all, I'll make it a top priority.
[07:37] <cjwatson> that's a little more promising
[07:38] <TheMuso> cjwatson: However, there is still the issue of not being able to rebuild the array from Linux.
[07:38] <cjwatson> basically, I'm just aware that this is an increasing target and if we don't get something in I suspect it's going to come up in point releases as a hardware support target anyway
[07:38] <TheMuso> So at this point, we could certainly blacklist the hpt37xx controller I have.
[07:38] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Right.
[07:38] <cjwatson> if it were totally non-functional, I'd agree it doesn't make sense
[07:39] <cjwatson> but it sounds to me that we have some specific bugs on which we need help from upstream
[07:39] <TheMuso> cjwatson: I do need to do a dual boot windows test with that silicon controller however to be sure.
[07:40] <TheMuso> The upstream mailing list is rather quiet. The person at Red Hat who maintains this certainly is working on it, but I think he is also involved with other things.
[07:40] <TheMuso> I'm downloading fedora 8 as we speak to see if that yields any different results.
[07:40] <TheMuso> As they've had dmraid in fedora for a few releases now.
[07:40] <calc> TheMuso: blacklisting probably should be based per bios revision, but that might get complicated
[07:41] <cjwatson> I think a fairly sane approach would be to move it to main for wider testing for now (since we need it in main in order to have it in the installer), but put a prominent note in the release notes for alpha 6 and beta that we will rip it back out again if test results are unfavourable
[07:41] <TheMuso> calc: Yeah I'd say it would, but as I said, there is no newer revision for this board, and I can't download an older one to try.
[07:41] <calc> maybe best to upgrade chipset to most recent bios (where possible) if it doesn't work blacklist the whole chipset for the time being
[07:41] <cjwatson> how does that sound?
[07:41] <slangasek> sounds agreeable to me
[07:41] <ogra> pretty dangerous
[07:41] <evand> heh
[07:41] <TheMuso> Note if any testing is to be done, it should be on a clean system so that data loss is no issue.
[07:41] <cjwatson> ogra: elaborate?
[07:42] <ogra> since its probably the base of your install people really need to be aware they need to reinstall if it fails
[07:42] <ogra> i mean
[07:42] <ogra> its your filesystem
[07:42] <slangasek> TheMuso: I look forward to your recommended release notes entry ;-)
[07:42] <cjwatson> we could include a warning in partman-dmraid that this is explicitly experimental and you MUST have backups
[07:42] <ogra> that needs a very wordy warning
[07:42] <TheMuso> cjwatson: partman-dmraid already has a warning.
[07:42] <cjwatson> "NO, REALLY"
[07:43] <evand> "Type 'Yes, do as I say' to continue" :)
[07:43] <ogra> i mean, i'm getting mails atm if ltsp is already final for hardy ... from people wanting to use it in production next week (if i dont shout)
[07:43] <cjwatson>  The support for SATA RAID disks (using dmraid) in the installer is
[07:43] <cjwatson>  experimental. You should make sure that you have a backup of any
[07:43] <cjwatson>  data on your system that you do not want to lose!
[07:43] <cjwatson> [and more]
[07:43] <TheMuso> Well there is a question that gets asked by partman-dmraid.
[07:43] <ogra> since "its only about a month")
[07:44] <TheMuso> cjwatson: As for raid 5 support, I could easily see how well that patch could be adapted for lum perhaps?
[07:44] <cjwatson> ogra: this is balanced against the fact that you can try to install Ubuntu right now on these systems and it's *guaranteed* to do bad things to your array
[07:44] <ogra> right
[07:44] <cjwatson> TheMuso: it came up a little while ago, and I didn't think it was all that important?
[07:45] <cjwatson> TheMuso: do people need RAID 5 support?
[07:45] <TheMuso> cjwatson: I don't think that was dmraid related...
[07:45] <cjwatson> it was some module that had 'dmraid' in its name
[07:45] <TheMuso> cjwatson: I certainly know intel controllers support it, and some others do.
[07:45] <cjwatson> dmraid56 IIRC?
[07:45] <TheMuso> cjwatson: I didn't dig, but I'll ahve a look. It could be the one.
[07:46] <cjwatson> if it's needed, then I apologise for saying it wasn't - #ubuntu-kernel should be able to help
[07:46] <TheMuso> Yes there was a post to the kernel list about it, but I  don't think its been acted upon.
[07:47] <cjwatson> any other questions? I agree that this is an uncomfortable situation
[07:48] <TheMuso> If you have dmraid compatible controllers that you could spare, testing would be very welcome.
[07:48] <TheMuso> spare as in, use that machine for testing, with data backed up to a safe place.
[07:48] <ogra> TheMuso, i'll send a call to the edubuntu list ... o know many of my users have such HW in their ltsp boxes, but dont know if they have spare stuff for testting
[07:49] <ogra> s/o know/i know/
[07:49] <TheMuso> ogra: I think its safer if the machine is non-critical at this point. Thanks though./
[07:49] <ogra> yeah, i'll ask if someone has a spare one to test on
[07:49] <cjwatson> I'm happy to help review a release notes entry
[07:50] <cjwatson> ok, one more item from activity reports
[07:50] <cjwatson>  * need folks with European keyboards to test if dead-keys work when
[07:50] <cjwatson> using scim-bridge with scim and feedback to me. If this works, we can
[07:50] <cjwatson> use scim-bridge as default module for scim, as it seems to solve all the
[07:50] <cjwatson> problems we currently have with scim.
[07:50] <cjwatson> (arne)
[07:50] <TheMuso> How complex is os-prober? I'll see if I can also get windows to be detected on a dmraid array.
[07:50] <cjwatson> os-prober is not too bad; I wrote chunks of it so I can help you with it
[07:50] <TheMuso> Ok thanks. Ok we can move on now I have my answer. :p
[07:51] <cjwatson> volunteers for keyboard testing?
[07:51] <cjwatson> this looks like a five-minute test for a few different people
[07:51]  * ogra raises hand ....
[07:51] <TheMuso> If I knew a European keyboard layout, I'd be happy to help. :)
[07:51] <cjwatson> I don't think us/gb really count
[07:51] <asac> i have a dead-keys keyboard and could test
[07:52] <TheMuso> Thats why I said, if I knew a layout.
[07:52] <ArneGoetje> only those with dead-keys on their hardware keyboard
[07:52] <ogra> my prob is that all my keyboards are attached to thin clients and the classmate doesnt have a european one ... but i'll arrange something
[07:52] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: dead keys are typically implemented in X ...
[07:52] <cjwatson> not in hardware
[07:52] <slangasek> ArneGoetje: how does one test the scim-bridge part of this?
[07:52] <ArneGoetje> well, I mean using a keyboard layout with dead-keys enabled by default
[07:52] <cjwatson> right
[07:53] <ArneGoetje> please see my activity report for testing steps
[07:53] <slangasek> if I toggle input method to SCIM, compose still works better than the GTK default IM, so I'm happy
[07:53] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: (perhaps repost that one to ubuntu-devel)
[07:53] <ogra> all germans who dont use dvorak likely use "de nodeadkeys"
[07:53] <ArneGoetje> slangasek: you use en_US I suppose?
[07:53] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: will do.
[07:54] <slangasek> ArneGoetje: en_US, with plenty of use of compose; no deadkeys
[07:54] <ArneGoetje> slangasek: does that one work well when scim is enabled?
[07:54] <slangasek> it appears to - but I don't have scim-bridge installed yet
[07:55] <cjwatson> does scim implement the dead-key composition itself, or just pass keycodes through to X?
[07:55] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: it should pass it through X when in English mode.
[07:55] <cjwatson> i.e. is there a possibility that it works for some combinations of dead keys and ordinary keys but not for others?
[07:55] <cjwatson> ok
[07:55] <cjwatson> (English => "not CJK", IIRC :-) )
[07:56] <cjwatson> so in that case a couple of tests ought to be sufficient
[07:56] <cjwatson> (asac and ogra)
[07:56] <ArneGoetje> I know it works when scim is set to scim-immodule... but need to test with scim-bridge too
[07:56] <cjwatson> all right - any other business?
[07:57] <slangasek> reminder that this Thursday is the UI Freeze
[07:57] <cjwatson> bryce: that particularly applies to this xrandr gui work
[07:57] <TheMuso> Ouch.
[07:57] <TheMuso> re dmraid. :p
[07:57] <bryce> hrm
[07:57] <asac> ArneGoetje: ill test right after the meeting and let you know.
[07:58] <ArneGoetje> asac: thanks.
[07:58] <bryce> cjwatson: could you prompt the desktop folks to review/upload my patches?  I could really use their help to meet that cutoff
[07:58] <cjwatson> people will start taking screenshots for documentation, books, etc. at UI freeze and will need to be warned explicitly of changes
[07:58] <slangasek> I'll send out a more thorough reminder to u-d-a; in the meantime just bear in mind that any changes to UIs (artwork, text strings, etc.) after Thursday need to be coordinated
[07:58] <ArneGoetje> what is affected by the UI freeze?
[07:58] <slangasek> ArneGoetje: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserInterfaceFreeze
[07:58] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: everything that documenters, translators, et al might need to know about if it changes afterwards
[07:59] <cjwatson> (to a crude first approximation)
[07:59] <ArneGoetje> I'm still reshuffeling some font settings and default font packages to be on the first install...
[07:59] <cjwatson> bryce: ok, noted
[07:59] <cjwatson> *extra* fonts aren't much of a problem, as nobody's going to take a screenshot of broken stuff for documentation
[08:00] <ArneGoetje> I mean default fonts
[08:00] <cjwatson> I mean extra default fonts over what we have now :-)
[08:00] <ArneGoetje> which fonts are chosen to render a particular script, etc.
[08:00] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: ok.
[08:01] <evand> so then this doesn't cover color changes?  I'm still trying to work out grabbing the right ones from gtk for two different custom widgets.
[08:01] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: but if it produces radical changes, please coordinate with the release team
[08:01] <slangasek> evand: if it's a change that could affect the accuracy of screenshots, it should be communicated
[08:01] <ArneGoetje> however, for CJK the default font should be changed
[08:01] <evand> slangasek: noted
[08:02] <cjwatson> there is a bug about the look-and-feel of the new ubiquity timezone widget
[08:02] <cjwatson> would be worth seeing what can be done about that before Thu
[08:03] <evand> indeed, I did catch that one
[08:03] <evand> I'm tempted to zoom in even further
[08:03] <evand> so there's more spacing
[08:03] <cjwatson> I have noticed that it's quite difficult to land on a particular point
[08:03] <cjwatson> particularly given that the map moves as you move the mouse pointer over it, so it effectively ends up moving at twice the speed you expect
[08:04] <cjwatson> but that might be tolerable with more space to work with
[08:04] <evand> if it's still noticable I'll work on smoothing it out and slowing it down.
[08:04] <cjwatson> ok, we're over time and should probably take this to other channels
[08:04] <cjwatson> thanks, everyone
[08:04] <asac> thanks
[08:05] <cjwatson> I think I'm going to go and have a nap :)
[08:05] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[08:05] <slangasek> thanks
[08:05] <TheMuso> Thanks, will get minutes done tomorrow my time.
[08:05] <cjwatson> TheMuso: cheers
[08:05] <calc> goodnight :)
[08:06] <cjwatson> late reminder, please look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring
[08:06]  * asac looking
[08:06] <cjwatson> if you have anything with your name against it, particularly if it's old, please do something about it; we need to be responsive to people submitting patches
[08:07] <bryce> cya
[08:12] <evand> goodnight, good morning, and good afternoon, where applicable.
[08:12] <TheMuso> calc: Oh yes, Intel's matrix raid or whatever it is is dmraid so far as I know.
[11:57]  * ogra wanves
[11:57]  * stgraber waves
[11:57] <ogra> *waves even
[11:58] <ogra> anyone else here ?
[11:58] <ogra> RichEd has an immovable appointment, so he migh not come
[11:58] <stgraber> right, I have invited xivulon for Edubuntu+Wubi
[11:59] <stgraber> don't know if he's around at the moment (not sure of his timezone)
[11:59] <ogra> what would you do wth wubi in edubuntu ?
[11:59] <ogra> *with
[11:59] <ogra> we dont have any installable media atm
[12:00] <ogra> and we're unlikely to have ...
[12:00] <stgraber> right, so I'll probably ask him to just drop edubuntu support from wubi
[12:00] <ogra> i doubt i can make any edubuntu apps fit on the liveCD with the dep on ubuntu-desktop we have now
[12:00] <stgraber> well, it's not a problem with wubi
[12:00] <ogra> that will take up all space
[12:01] <stgraber> it runs from an ISO file, so size doesn't matter
[12:01] <ogra> if wubi has a networked install mode that would be an option
[12:01] <stgraber> but that would require an extra iso just for wubi which is unlikely to happen
[12:01] <ogra> like pulling everything from the archive
[12:02] <stgraber> hmm, I don't know if wubi has some kind of netinstall support
[12:02] <ogra> then you could just install edubuntu-desktop
[12:02] <stgraber> yes, well something he could also do is that when you select Edubuntu, it installs Ubuntu and then install edubuntu-desktop
[12:02] <stgraber> (don't know if it's something he can do though)
[12:02] <ogra> right, but that requires net access as well
[12:03] <ogra> or multi iso support in wubi
[12:03] <stgraber> right
[12:03] <ogra> well, anyway ... short Cd status report ...
[12:04] <ogra> the edubuntu-desktop package is now in g-a-i (still needs some description text)
[12:04] <ogra> so if you pop in the Cd you can just mark it for install in g-a-i and it will turn your desktop into edubuntu
[12:04] <stgraber> I tried it with alpha-5 and it worked perfectly
[12:05] <ogra> edubuntu-artwork got a notification to please reboot or at least relogin for the changes to take effect
[12:05] <ogra> since wallpaper etc wont change immediately ... gdm theme needs a gdm restart etc
[12:05]  * Hobbsee waves
[12:05] <ogra> there are some dependency probs i'm currently attacking
[12:06] <ogra> its currently not possible to install without network from that CD because its missing a lor of kde libs
[12:06] <ogra> i'm currently sorting that out and hope to have it fixed for tomorrows build
[12:07] <ogra> the prob here was that -alternate wasnt installable for some days due to new kernel builds
[12:07] <ogra> so i didnt have a plain fresh install to test on ...
[12:07] <ogra> vbox install of todays image is running in the background :)
[12:07] <ogra> meh
[12:08] <ogra> and just failed
[12:08] <stgraber> argh :(
[12:08] <ogra> well, anyway thats the current status
[12:09] <ogra> i'm waiting for some artwork but since rich usually does the communication here i'll do that off meeting
[12:10] <ogra> obverall the new CD design proves to be good ... we currently eat up only 430M ...
[12:10] <ogra> and still have WINFOSS on it
[12:10] <ogra> i suspect the deps i have to add will eat about another 50M or so though
[12:10] <ogra> so any questions ?
[12:11] <ogra> oh, and lasers freeze exception for squeak was approved ... we'll get a new working squeak for hardy :)
[12:12] <ogra> hmm, seems no questions so far ...
[12:12] <xivulon> ogra what will happen to the ISO?
[12:12] <ogra> xivulon, which one ?
[12:13] <ogra> the addon ? it will stay as is
[12:13] <xivulon> will we have a big ISO with desktop + edubuntu all in one?
[12:13] <ogra> the livecd is likely to go away as we wont have space for any edu apps
[12:13] <ogra> and there was no final decision about the dvd yet
[12:13] <xivulon> I am asking that in the context of wubi
[12:13] <ogra> but i'm not eager to maintain it
[12:14] <ogra> we had that in the beginning :)
[12:14] <xivulon> Size is not a big issue on my side
[12:14] <ogra> we dont have any installable media anymore in edubuntu
[12:14] <ogra> or will not have
[12:14] <ogra> edubuntu turned into a plain addon
[12:14] <stgraber> xivulon: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5042/
[12:15] <xivulon> stgraber: thx
[12:15] <ogra> xivulon, multi iso support would work ... or netinstall
[12:15] <stgraber> xivulon: is there a way you could chain both CDs or install edubuntu-desktop once the Ubuntu Desktop is installed ?
[12:15] <ogra> if wubi offers either that would eb for edubuntu
[12:16] <ogra> no need to chain them
[12:16] <ogra> just apt-cdrom add both
[12:16] <ogra> and then install edubuntu-desktop
[12:16] <ogra> the combo of both isos should have all you need
[12:17] <xivulon> ogra will need to investigate that, might be possible but no promises
[12:17] <ogra> doesnt sound overly complicated :)
[12:17] <ogra> but surely some code to write, so probably not for hardy
[12:18] <xivulon> yeah not sure if that would be a violoation of feature freeze
[12:19] <ogra> i wont cry if yu drop it for hardy and we re-add it in a proper (instead of quick) way in intrepid
[12:19] <ogra> not sure how much its used
[12:20] <ogra> did you have any complaints yet from hardy testers ?
[12:20] <xivulon> I'd guess it would be mostly for evaluation purposes
[12:21] <ogra> yeah
[12:21] <stgraber> having a way to work with add-on CDs in wubi would be interesting as some other derivatives may want to go that way in the future
[12:22] <ogra> hum
[12:22] <ogra> i just looked at the livecd
[12:22] <ogra> its remarkably small
[12:25] <stgraber> ogra: Have you had some time to write the MIR for italc ?
[12:25] <ogra> ugh, thanks for reminding, will do so today
[12:26] <xivulon> stgraber: yes I agree, does apt-cdrom work with an ISO?
[12:27] <stgraber> xivulon: not sure, but you could just loop mount it and then use it no ?
[12:27] <xivulon> yes
[12:28] <stgraber> sorry, I got to go back to my edubuntu deployement. Thanks for the meeting and see you later
[12:28] <ogra> yeah
[12:28] <ogra> i think we can adjourn now
[12:29] <xivulon> I'll keep edubuntu for the time being and see if I can add extra-isos with minimal changes
[12:29] <xivulon> if that's ok
[12:29] <ogra> seems theer is nothing pressing anymore we cant as well discuss in #edubuntu
[12:29] <stgraber> as we don't have Riched around for the community part I indeed think we can :)
[12:29] <ogra> yeah
[12:29] <ogra> xivulon, sure
[12:30] <ogra> xivulon, you can also keep it and show a note that the user needs network and install edubuntu-desktop from the archive
[12:30] <xivulon> that would be plan B I guess
[12:31] <ogra> right
[12:31] <ogra> ok, are we ready so far ?
[12:31] <ogra> going once ...
[12:31] <ogra> going twice ...
[12:31] <ogra> .
[12:31] <ogra> .
[12:31] <ogra> .
[12:32] <ogra> adjourned ...
[12:32] <ogra> thanks all
[12:32] <ogra> stgraber, good luck with your deployment
[12:49] <michalski> meeting starts in 10 minutes right?
[13:02] <Riddell> michalski: looks like the edu meeting has happened
[13:02] <michalski> happend? like has past?
[13:03] <michalski> impossible, my computer was on all night for the platform meeting, and i turned it off only between 7-30:8:30, so its impossible that i missed it
[13:05] <mjg59> michalski: It started an hour ago
[13:05] <mjg59> And finished half an hour ago
[13:05] <michalski> .....awwww :(
[13:06] <michalski> and next meeting at 5pm (AST), cya
[13:17] <mruiz> @schedule santiago
[15:58] <pedro_> hello!
[15:59]  * Iulian waves
[15:59] <heno> hey all!
[16:00] <nand> hey!
[16:00] <liw> hi
[16:00]  * nand is at work...
[16:00] <heno> bdmurray, ogasawara?
[16:00] <ogasawara_> I'm here
[16:01] <bdmurray> metoo
[16:01] <heno> ok, then we can start!
[16:01] <heno> #startmeeting
[16:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:01. The chair is heno.
[16:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:01] <heno> agena at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[16:02] <heno> [TOPIC] Evaluation of the current bug day arrangement.
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Evaluation of the current bug day arrangement.
[16:02] <stgraber> hello
[16:02] <heno> ... It seems to be going extremely well, with solid community participation and good impact on the numbers. In London we decided to run two bug days each week for a month or two approaching release. Should we make this a permanent arrangement? -- heno
[16:02] <bdmurray> I personally find it hard to participate in both of them
[16:02] <ogasawara_> same here
[16:03] <heno> yeah, I can understand that
[16:03] <pedro_> yes me too, it's hard for me to participate on the Tuesday ones (lot of emails to read basically)
[16:04] <Iulian> Well, here is going well, every morning I have some classes (school) but after that I'm free to give a hand.
[16:04] <Iulian> But I think that's up to you guys.
[16:05] <heno> pedro_: would you be comfortable running the desktop days with just the (growing) community?
[16:05] <pedro_> I'd like to celebrate both bug days, it seems that there's a lot of participation the Thursdays at the desktop hug days
[16:05] <pedro_> heno: of course!
[16:05] <pedro_> the bugsquad is doing an excellent job there
[16:05] <heno> we could look at the QA schedule and select point in the cycle where it makes sense to have two
[16:05] <heno> pedro_: indeed
[16:07] <heno> the time around UDS seems difficult
[16:07] <heno> or any meeting where we all have to attend
[16:08] <heno> but otherwise, are there any bad dates for bug days?
[16:09] <pedro_> i don't think so, just between meetings they are difficult to do
[16:09] <bdmurray> We didn't have one right after FF because people were so busy
[16:10] <heno> right, just leading up to release might also be busy
[16:10] <bdmurray> right with more testing
[16:10] <heno> but generally, i think we can continue as we are and see what capacity we have
[16:11] <pedro_> agreed with that
[16:11] <heno> with more people joining the bus factor drops also
[16:11] <bdmurray> I think it will be helpful if we can keep the momentum until UDS as we'll need help watching for SRU bugs for Hardy
[16:11] <heno> (ie. we can run them even if a specific person isn't available)
[16:12] <heno> bdmurray: esp as this is an LTS where we will expect to ship updates
[16:12] <heno> in the form of point releases
[16:13] <heno> Ok so we are all agreed the bug days are really rocking these days and not to change them ATM
[16:13] <heno> !
[16:13] <stgraber> moving room, will be back in ~5min
[16:13] <heno> [TOPIC] Kernel bug migration - are we blocked on bug 193853?
[16:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel bug migration - are we blocked on bug 193853?
[16:13] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 193853 in python-launchpad-bugs "add functionality for adding new tasks to bug report" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193853
[16:14] <ogasawara_> it really just depends on how we're wanting to handle the migration
[16:15] <ogasawara_> if we just want to mark the linux-source-2.6.22 tasks to Incomplete and ask to test with the Hardy kernel, then we're ok
[16:15] <ogasawara_> it's just an issue if we want to take the extra step of opening the 'linux' task at the same time
[16:15] <heno> they the user has to set the 'linux' task
[16:15] <ogasawara_> right
[16:15] <ogasawara_> or we have to set it
[16:16] <heno> it's fairly easy to do
[16:16] <heno> compared with finding the right pkg in the first place
[16:16] <heno> it will only take 1-2 lines to explain
[16:17]  * ogasawara_ nods
[16:17] <ogasawara_> but we'll want to make sure they understand that if they don't add the 'linux' task themselves it may get overlooked
[16:17] <heno> ogasawara, can the setting to incomplete and adding comment then be fully automated?
[16:18] <ogasawara_> heno: yes
[16:18] <heno> (once the high and critical bugs are taken care of)
[16:18] <heno> i'm happy with that
[16:18] <heno> rather than waiting for a p-lp-bugs feature
[16:19] <ogasawara_> yup, and I've been trying to take a look at the high and critical ones
[16:19] <heno> excellent
[16:19] <ogasawara_> also the Fix Committed ones are simple to close out
[16:19] <heno> anyone opposed to that approach
[16:20] <heno> are they all in reality fix Released?
[16:20] <ogasawara_> heno: not all, but a majority are
[16:21] <heno> ok, let's go with that then!
[16:21] <heno> what about time lines?
[16:21] <heno> when shall we do this?
[16:21] <ogasawara_> heno:  I'll immediately start taking a closer look at the High and Critical ones
[16:22] <ogasawara_> heno:  I don't have an exact count of how many there are, but I imagine I can tackle a good chunck of them by next week
[16:22] <heno> ogasawara_, thanks. Let us know how you get on
[16:22] <heno> [TOPIC] QA-poll pre-launch coordination
[16:22] <stgraber> re
[16:22] <stgraber> oh, just in time :)
[16:23] <heno> stgraber: did you want to ask for testing?
[16:23] <heno> or shall we do that in a different forum?
[16:23] <stgraber> well, it's late for testing, but I would like everyone of you to think about two ideas to add right after we release it
[16:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA-poll pre-launch coordination
[16:24] <heno> So these are ideas for improving Ubuntu
[16:24] <heno> basically feature requests
[16:24] <stgraber> yep, possibly linked to a spec, bug or forum thread (ideal would be the three of them)
[16:24] <heno> 'Video enabled skype should just work'
[16:25] <heno> 'better support for Wacom tablets', etc.
[16:25] <stgraber> 'Easy partition management'
[16:25] <stgraber> 'Graphic backup tool'
[16:26] <heno> stgraber: ok, thanks. we can look at the announcement texts later in #u-testing
[16:26] <heno> liw: did you want to talk about testing packages, or not yet?
[16:26] <stgraber> yes, I'll blog about it
[16:27] <stgraber> heno: can you post on ubuntuforum ?
[16:27] <liw> heno, they're not yet ready for public use, so not yet, but next week
[16:27] <stgraber> I would suggest that we start spreading the announcement tomorrow from 13:00 UTC
[16:27] <heno> stgraber: yes, I'll contact the forum and fridge people to get it posted centrally
[16:27] <heno> stgraber: sounds good
[16:28] <nand> re
[16:28] <heno> liw: ok, please email the QA list
[16:28]  * heno waves to nand
[16:28] <heno> any other topics?
[16:29] <nand> heno: I saw you mentionned bugvote.qa.ubuntu.com on your announcment sheet. But it is not ready
[16:29] <heno> nand: ah, ok. good catch, thanks
[16:29] <heno> I'll take that out
[16:29] <nand> ok
[16:29] <bdmurray> I recently was reminded about 'apt-cache policy <PKGNAME>' and that seems a bit better than 'dpkg -l ...'.  Thoughts?
[16:31] <bdmurray> For the guided bug filing. ;)
[16:31] <pedro_> bdmurray:  totally better than dpkg -l
[16:31] <bdmurray> I like how it shows the repo they are using too
[16:31] <pedro_> sometimes with dpkg -l the version number get corrupted
[16:31] <pedro_> yes yes
[16:32] <heno> I just looked -- if you guys say so :)
[16:33] <Iulian> apt-cache policy won't give you the description of the package but I think it is not so useful
[16:33] <heno> should not be needed by the package maintainer who fixes the bug in the end ;)
[16:34] <Iulian> Indeed
[16:34] <heno> bdmurray: right, so let's use that
[16:34] <heno> has anyone noticed any impact of the bug filing instructions on new bugs
[16:35] <heno> ?
[16:35] <heno> difficult to measure of course
[16:35] <bdmurray> I think my initial sample is a little off
[16:35] <bdmurray> but I wrote up some notes somewhere
[16:35] <bdmurray> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/BugSampling
[16:35] <heno> excellent, I'd like to read those
[16:36] <heno> thx
[16:37] <bdmurray> I want to redo to it with a better initial sample and also look at the change 'apt-cache policy' has
[16:37] <heno> It would be interesting to see a time spread of the '700 with the header "sourcepackage=None"'
[16:37] <heno> of course older bugs will have moved out of new so a naive analysis will be way off
[16:38] <bdmurray> I started off with bugs with "NEW" in the subject so those are the 1st e-mails.  Somebody would have to be very quick to get it moved to a package
[16:39] <heno> ah, the data is 'old' also, excellent
[16:39] <bdmurray> Additionally, we implemented the guided instructions on the 24th of January so this is after they were in effect
[16:39] <heno> so a time spread of no-pkg/total would be very useful
[16:40] <heno> just plotting those in daily or weekly bins
[16:42] <heno> if there is nothing else, let's wrap up
[16:42] <heno> - ? -
[16:42] <heno> 3
[16:42] <bdmurray> regarding malone bugs tagged ubuntu-qa
[16:42] <liw> I'm fine
[16:43] <heno> ah :)
[16:43] <bdmurray> mpt is / was under the impression that they are bugs that are blocking our work - are we in agreement about that?
[16:43] <heno> I've notified bjorn about them
[16:44] <bdmurray> I just wanted clarification as to when we should use the tag
[16:44] <bdmurray> or consensus
[16:44] <heno> blocking us from doing it as efficiently as we could otherwise
[16:44] <heno> oh, i see
[16:44] <heno> perhaps better keep pet annoyances off the list
[16:45] <bdmurray> I might tagged some I just wanted to watch and share with the team
[16:45] <heno> but include things you feel slow you down
[16:45] <bdmurray> Okay, would e-mailing the QA list about "interesting" ones be best?
[16:46] <heno> bdmurray: to get others to weigh in on whether it should be tagged?
[16:46] <heno> when in doubt that sounds good
[16:47] <heno> ie. when it's not obvious
[16:47] <bdmurray> as an example is bug 165283 blocking our work - stgraber?
[16:47] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 165283 in malone "The +txt listing for a bug is missing mentoring information" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/165283
[16:47] <heno> should we review this list within the QA team regularly as well?
[16:49] <bdmurray> Maybe do an initial review via e-mail, only brining up contentious ones, and then talk about new ones in the meeting?
[16:49] <bdmurray> contentious or interesting
[16:50] <heno> there are 28 ATM
[16:51] <heno> 7 have no priority
[16:51] <bdmurray> that's their responsibility though right?
[16:51] <heno> which could mean they are not very serious, or that the LP team is not taking them seriously enough
[16:52] <heno> but if those are really blocking us we should lobby to have them raise the priority
[16:52] <bdmurray> well one of them was just submitted yesterday
[16:53] <heno> "nomination listings on a bug page are odd" likely isn't a blocker
[16:53] <bdmurray> yeah, I was just looking at that and will remove it
[16:53] <heno> ok, so let's do a review on the qa list first
[16:54] <heno> bdmurray: do you want to post a strawman list?
[16:54] <liw> (time's running out)
[16:54] <bdmurray> heno: sure
[16:54] <heno> bdmurray: these are clear; these are less clear
[16:55] <heno> bdmurray: thanks!
[16:55] <heno> ok we are agreed
[16:55] <heno> and done
[16:55] <heno> #endmeeting
[16:55] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:55.
[16:55] <heno> thanks everyone!
[16:56]  * heno will be AFK for a while
[19:39] <janquark> @now
[19:39] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 27 2008, 19:39:19 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 hour 20 minutes
[19:54] <andrea-bs> @schedule europe/rome
[19:54] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 27 Feb 22:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 15:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 13:00: MOTU | 05 Mar 08:00: Platform Team | 08 Mar 12:00: Kubuntu Developers
[19:55] <keescook> security team meeting isn't listed, but is starting in 5 min
[19:55] <andrea-bs> thanks keescook
[19:55] <keescook> np, sorry for the confusion
[19:55] <joejaxx> hi
[19:55] <joejaxx> :)
[19:55] <andrea-bs> heya joejaxx
[19:55] <keescook> heya
[19:59] <astharot> 60secs!
[19:59] <andrea-bs> @now
[19:59] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 27 2008, 20:00:02 - Next meeting: Server Team in 59 minutes
[20:00] <keescook> #startmeeting
[20:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 20:00. The chair is keescook.
[20:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:00] <keescook> hello!
[20:00] <keescook> [topic] agenda review
[20:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda review
[20:00] <keescook> heya folks :)
[20:00]  * jdstrand waves
[20:00] <keescook> anyone new here that wants to introduce themselves?
[20:01] <popey> o/
[20:01] <popey> Hello - popey - just a bloke interested in security
[20:01] <keescook> :)  it's a big topic area, anything in particular?
[20:02] <popey> keeping systems up to date
[20:02] <keescook> cool.
[20:02] <keescook> welcome :)
[20:02] <popey> we do hosting for LUGs, so I'm interested in best practice for making sure we don't get hacked basically :)
[20:02] <keescook> sounds good -- have you been using gutsy for those hosts?
[20:02] <popey> they're mostly debian
[20:03] <keescook> I'm curious if anyone has played much with doing apache isolation with apparmor in gutsy.  ah, heh.
[20:03] <astharot> keescook: cool
[20:03] <astharot> will try
[20:03] <keescook> okay, if there are any new agenda items, please add them to the wiki agenda page:
[20:03] <keescook> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
[20:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
[20:04] <keescook> as usual, we've got an hour before the server team meeting uses this room
[20:04] <\sh> starts now?
[20:04] <keescook> so, continuing into what I think will be a quick topic...
[20:04] <keescook> \sh: yeah, started
[20:04] <jdstrand> keescook: I thought about it
[20:04] <jdstrand> re apache/apparmor
[20:04] <keescook> hehe, me too!  :)
[20:04] <keescook> [topic] cve review
[20:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  cve review
[20:05] <keescook> anyone have any open CVE concerns?  I've got nothing myself, but I like having this place holder just in case.
[20:05] <\sh> keescook: how do we going for sec fixes for issues which don't have a CVE filed
[20:05] <\sh> ?
[20:06] <jdstrand> \sh: we track these by CVE typically-- do you have a particular thing in mind?
[20:06] <keescook> \sh: we can follow the same processes, but generally, we should request CVE for issues that need them
[20:07] <keescook> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures
[20:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures
[20:07] <keescook> there is a small section on requesting a CVE
[20:07] <keescook> err... there was.
[20:07] <joejaxx> lol
[20:08] <\sh> jdstrand: lighttpd
[20:09] <keescook> [action] keescook to (re?)add CVE request procedure to SUP wiki page
[20:09] <MootBot> ACTION received:  keescook to (re?)add CVE request procedure to SUP wiki page
[20:09] <keescook> \sh: I opted to let lighttpd publish without the CVE (since it was ready to publish)
[20:09] <keescook> basically, we contact mitre and vendor-sec and ask for one.
[20:10] <keescook> okay, moving on...
[20:10] <jdstrand> \sh: does this have an LP bug?
[20:10] <\sh> jdstrand: jepp...sec
[20:10] <keescook> [topic] selinux progress
[20:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  selinux progress
[20:10] <\sh> jdstrand: bug #195380
[20:10] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 195380 in lighttpd "lighttpd crashes in some cases and giving a remote DoS possibility" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/195380
[20:10] <propagandist> :o) Most packages have made it into upstream.
[20:10] <keescook> propagandist, jason_tang: things seems pretty cool
[20:11] <jason_tang> spiffy
[20:11] <joejaxx> :)
[20:11] <keescook> I installed a selinux vm.  I have no idea what I'm doing in it, but "sestatus -v" seems happy ;)
[20:11] <propagandist> horray ;o}
[20:11] <joejaxx> keescook: lol :D
[20:11] <propagandist> SETools 3.3.3 was released and is in the PPA now. I'll be posting it to revu this week.
[20:11] <jdstrand> \sh: thanks
[20:11] <keescook> propagandist: okay, cool
[20:11] <jason_tang> extra spiffy
[20:11] <propagandist> Some packages (refpolicy, selinux, and selinux-basics) need to be deleted from the PPA so that their version can be sync'd with upstream. If there aren't any objections I'll do that after the meeting today.
[20:11] <keescook> propagandist: did you catch the issues with libselinux and libsepol that got uncovered over the weekend?
[20:12] <propagandist> with pkg-config?
[20:12] <keescook> yeah
[20:12] <propagandist> yes, i've pulled those into bzr and posted to the ppa today
[20:12] <propagandist> they'll get pushed to revu as well
[20:12] <keescook> okay, excellent.  is there hope that those changes will get into upstream?
[20:13] <keescook> for note, I've already uploaded the fixed packages to the archive
[20:13] <propagandist> I would think so :o)
[20:13] <keescook> propagandist: cool.  is that something you can drive?  I'm not sure where to send the patches
[20:13] <propagandist> I made some adjustments to the .pc changes though that I think will be easier to upstream (I removed the DESTDIR changes)
[20:13] <propagandist> keescook: yup i can submit them for us
[20:14] <propagandist> keescook: Any update on ubuntu-standard apparmor-utils=>security-utils?
[20:14] <keescook> propagandist: okay, cool -- I did think it was a bit funny-looking that way.  what was your solution for handling "prefix" in the .pc file?
[20:15] <keescook> propagandist: now that I've got my selinux vm, I can more easily see/test the virtual package need there.
[20:15] <keescook> I will get that into the archive this week -- it should be a very simple fix -- I just wanted to let the new packages settle for a bit
[20:16] <keescook> propagandist: is it intentional to have the X login be unconfined?
[20:16] <propagandist> keescook: i left it as the combined DESTDIR+prefix... thats not really optimal, but removing destdir will require a bit more work due to the way its being used currently
[20:17] <propagandist> keescook: kk
[20:17] <propagandist> keescook: um... no
[20:17] <keescook> propagandist: well, the requirement is that the .pc file reports the correct thing.  :)  how that happens doesn't matter.  ;)
[20:17] <propagandist> keescook: ;o} sounds like a bug to me
[20:17] <propagandist> I'm going to keep a closer eye on the lp bugs if you want to put it there
[20:18] <keescook> propagandist: okay, I did an alpha5 install, then dist-upgrade, apt-get purge apparmor, apt-get install selinux, reboot, reboot, login, sestatus => "unconfied"
[20:19] <keescook> propagandist: okay, I'll file the bug
[20:19] <propagandist> keescook: :o}
[20:19] <keescook> [action] keescook to file "unconfined" selinux bug
[20:19] <MootBot> ACTION received:  keescook to file "unconfined" selinux bug
[20:19] <keescook> propagandist: beyond setools and the virtual package, is there any outstanding in your view?
[20:20] <propagandist> keescook: nope, everything looks like its coming together nicely
[20:21]  * propagandist is excited to hear about the gui tools ;o}
[20:21] <keescook> excellent!  :)
[20:21] <keescook> [topic] selinux gui utils
[20:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  selinux gui utils
[20:21] <joejaxx> hi
[20:21] <joejaxx> :)
[20:21] <keescook> :)
[20:21] <joejaxx> setroubleshoot is almost done packaging wise i just need to fix something to be in compliance with ubuntu policy
[20:21] <joejaxx> there are still some redhat/fedora specific things i need to investigate
[20:22] <keescook> joejaxx: is there any beta in REVU or something to poke at early?
[20:22] <joejaxx> i should have the other gui tools done soon as well (system-config-selinux and the policycoreutils-gui)
[20:22] <joejaxx> keescook: nope not yet i should upload to ppa ( or revu since that sounds better)
[20:23] <jdstrand> joejaxx: is the system-config-selinux standalone, or does it need other redhat stuff (IIRC it is python and other libs)
[20:23] <jdstrand> ?
[20:23] <joejaxx> the later is actually a patch on policycoreutils so i am wondering how i should go about that
[20:24] <keescook> joejaxx: is it a bolt on? or does it need a patch to make the -gui work?
[20:24] <jdstrand> by 'it' I mean 'system-config-*' tools
[20:24] <jdstrand> in general
[20:24] <joejaxx> jdstrand: standalone i believe, we already have system-config-printer
[20:24] <joejaxx> keescook: the patch is the gui code
[20:25] <joejaxx> grr i wish i would have posted it somewhere http accessible so i could show you all
[20:25] <keescook> joejaxx: hm... is there some way to keep it external?  the feature freeze makes it hard to add a feature to a package, but easy to upload a NEW package.  :)
[20:26] <joejaxx> keescook: yeah, i will have to look further into it
[20:26] <joejaxx> :)
[20:26] <joejaxx> i will do that before the end of this business week
[20:26] <keescook> joejaxx: cool, that sounds good.
[20:26] <joejaxx> :)
[20:27] <keescook> do we need to have auditd running when using any of these things?
[20:27] <joejaxx> for setroubleshoot yes
[20:27] <joejaxx> but you can have it review log files as well
[20:27] <keescook> okay.  I think mathiaz is actually intending to get it into main for intrepid
[20:28] <joejaxx> ok great
[20:28] <keescook> anything we can help with for the gui bits?
[20:29] <joejaxx> keescook: yes if you are knowledgeable with the python policy it would help :D
[20:29] <joejaxx> i will upload it to revu later
[20:29] <keescook> oops.  I'm a newb there.  ;)  we can find someone :)
[20:30] <joejaxx> ;)
[20:30] <keescook> okay, so, once on REVU, we can poke at it.  :)
[20:30] <jdstrand> there is a good link-- getting it...
[20:30] <andrea-bs> joejaxx: I know python a bit well
[20:30] <keescook> eek, meeting half-over....
[20:30] <jdstrand> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy
[20:30] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy
[20:30] <jdstrand> joejaxx: ^^
[20:30] <joejaxx> jdstrand: ok thanks
[20:30] <joejaxx> keescook: perhaps we should move on to the next topic for time sake?
[20:30] <keescook> [topic] hardening wrapper testing
[20:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  hardening wrapper testing
[20:31] <keescook> so, I starting trying to do some benchmarks for fun and discovered that mplayer doesn't compile with PIE
[20:31] <keescook> PIE will fail for applications with raw assembly...
[20:31] <keescook> since those are, by definition, not relocatable in most cases.  :(
[20:31] <NthDegree> PIE seems to have issues with apps that want PIC too
[20:32] <crimsun_> what portion of main does that affect?
[20:32] <keescook> NthDegree: afaict, an executable can link with either PIC or PIE objects
[20:32] <keescook> (PIE is just a "lesser" PIC)
[20:32] <NthDegree> i've had a few errors where it's asked to recompile with -fPIC
[20:33] <jdstrand> keescook: when is it ok to issue FTBFS bugs against the packages, when intrepid opens?
[20:34] <keescook> NthDegree: right, those are .o's that are neither -fPIC nor -fPIE, from what I've been able to tell (i.e. they are not relocatable at all)
[20:34] <NthDegree> ah
[20:35] <keescook> and the things that I've found that don't get -fPIC/-fPIE during a compile (with the wrappers) are .S files
[20:35] <keescook> (things going though "as")
[20:36] <keescook> those .o files are not relocatable... and some may not be able to be defined that way... it kind of depends.
[20:36] <keescook> [agreed] we need to take a closer look at things like mplayer
[20:36] <MootBot> AGREED received:  we need to take a closer look at things like mplayer
[20:36] <keescook> NthDegree: what were you compiling that failed?  (and did compiling with DEB_BUILD_HARDENING_PIE=0 help?)
[20:37] <NthDegree> keescook: err large'ish things... KDE was one of my attempts
[20:38] <keescook> jdstrand: we should open them now, actually, but note them with the tags from the wiki page:
[20:38] <keescook> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/HardeningWrapper
[20:38] <keescook> "hardening-ftbfs"
[20:38] <jdstrand> cool
[20:39] <keescook> crimsun_: it's unclear...
[20:39] <keescook> but probably everything with asm in it
[20:39] <keescook> which is, ironically, the things I'd want to protect most with PIE.  ;)
[20:39]  * jdstrand just had a thought that we could compile select packages with hardening wrapper for hardy-- and release with it (eg tasksel server packages might be a start)
[20:40] <jdstrand> but I realize this is probably too late because of FF
[20:40] <keescook> ah, as a ppa, perhaps?
[20:40] <jdstrand> I was thinking for release, ideally
[20:40] <jdstrand> we Build-Depends on it
[20:40] <keescook> yeah... makes me nervous to do it this late... but perhaps should be considered more carefully
[20:41] <keescook> (before ruling it out)
[20:41] <keescook> what would people nominate for this?
[20:41] <jdstrand> maybe this is an #ubuntu-server topic too
[20:41] <keescook> i.e. what packages?
[20:41] <crimsun_> daemons listening on non-localhost?
[20:42] <keescook> openssh, while not compiled with some of the other things, is compiled with PIE.
[20:42] <jdstrand> my thoughts were things in main that ship on the server cd that open a port
[20:42] <jdstrand> cups might be another candidate
[20:42] <jdstrand> dhcpd
[20:42] <jdstrand> dhcp3-client (or whatever its called)
[20:42] <keescook> jdstrand: would you make a list of candidates and put them in the wiki under the roadmap?
[20:43] <jdstrand> keescook: I can do that
[20:43] <keescook> [action] jdstrand to make a list of possible candidates for early hardening in hardy
[20:43] <MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand to make a list of possible candidates for early hardening in hardy
[20:43] <keescook> okay, moving on...
[20:43] <keescook> [topic] pentest team organization
[20:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  pentest team organization
[20:43] <astharot> hello
[20:43] <joejaxx> hi
[20:44] <astharot> I'll talk about this instead of emgent :)
[20:44] <keescook> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest#head-9a8d1f8d2cdf1209688c579b0b9dea5610015391
[20:44] <astharot> i'll be quick, 15 minutes left
[20:44] <keescook> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest#head-9a8d1f8d2cdf1209688c579b0b9dea5610015391
[20:44] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest#head-9a8d1f8d2cdf1209688c579b0b9dea5610015391
[20:44] <astharot> all the people involved into the team are pleased to subscribe to the ML
[20:44] <astharot> http://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-pentest/
[20:44] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-pentest/
[20:45] <keescook> [action] pentesters subscribe to private pentest list
[20:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pentesters subscribe to private pentest list
[20:45] <astharot> yep
[20:45] <astharot> then
[20:45] <astharot> keescook: emgent told me that you should know something about platforms census
[20:45] <keescook> I don't yet have an infrastructure machine list, IS would like to know what the plans for them are first.  :)
[20:45] <astharot> and that you have to discuss with him via mail
[20:46] <astharot> uhm I think that by knowning the "volume" of the platforms, the criticism and everything related about the productivity we could start thinking a plan
[20:47] <astharot> otherwise, how to plan if we don't know what to do?
[20:47] <joejaxx> we should probably draft up policies first
[20:47] <astharot> yep, CoC is the next point :)
[20:47] <keescook> I'd like to at least have an outline.  e.g.   1) check for XSS in webservices a, b, c.   2) check for ... etc
[20:47] <joejaxx> on how to go about things :)
[20:48] <joejaxx> keescook: same here
[20:48] <astharot> ok so we should first define the tasks that people will perform on platforms
[20:48] <keescook> right, CoC will get written before the week is up.  jdstrand and I are face-to-face this week (server team meeting)
[20:48] <astharot> perfect
[20:48] <astharot> then
[20:48] <keescook> astharot: that's my thinking.  I'm going to have a hard time convincing IS to help until they're comfortable with what's going to happen.  :)
[20:49] <astharot> ok so, task definition in todo list
[20:49] <astharot> please add it, dunno how to do it :P
[20:49] <keescook> [action] pentest team to define tasks for TODO list
[20:49] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pentest team to define tasks for TODO list
[20:50] <keescook> does that capture the task description correctly?
[20:50] <astharot> yep
[20:50] <keescook> the template looks good
[20:50] <astharot> then, I prepared a draft of the pentest report
[20:50] <astharot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport/template
[20:50] <keescook> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport/template
[20:50] <keescook> heh
[20:50] <astharot> yes
[20:50] <astharot> so, approvation?
[20:50] <keescook> (why do some links need [link]?)
[20:51] <keescook> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport/template
[20:51] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport/template
[20:51] <keescook> sure, looks good.
[20:51] <joejaxx> keescook: maybe it does not like https
[20:51] <joejaxx> :P
[20:51] <keescook> ah
[20:51] <astharot> the, emgent is working on "anteater" that should be something automatic to send directly the report to launchpad as bug
[20:51] <astharot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport
[20:52] <keescook> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport
[20:52] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport
[20:52] <astharot> he has to finish it then he will make a package and will update it on bazaar or ppa
[20:52] <keescook> okay, sounds good
[20:53] <keescook> are there new pentest members to approve?
[20:53] <astharot> last point
[20:53] <astharot> everything related to ubuntu-pentes should be discussed and approved by every member of the team
[20:53] <astharot> I don't think there will be new people involved, AFAIK
[20:54] <keescook> astharot: unanimous approvals may be tricky
[20:54] <astharot> at least, atm
[20:54] <jdstrand> astharot: I am assuming that the bug will be marked private as well as security?
[20:54] <astharot> why tricky?
[20:54] <astharot> jdstrand: yes that's the plan
[20:54] <keescook> astharot: it can just be hard to reach 100% agreement some times.
[20:55] <joejaxx>  /win 116
[20:55] <keescook> I think simple majority should work in most cases.
[20:55] <joejaxx> bah
[20:55] <astharot> ye sure, I think that he wanted to say that every member should vote, not only older or "admins"
[20:55] <keescook> [agreed] joejaxx has too many windows
[20:55] <MootBot> AGREED received:  joejaxx has too many windows
[20:55] <keescook> astharot: ah! okay, then I agree there.
[20:55] <keescook> running out of time again....
[20:55] <astharot> perfect
[20:55] <astharot> I've done :)
[20:55] <jdstrand> haha
[20:56] <astharot> hands up \o/
[20:56] <joejaxx> hahaha
[20:56] <jdstrand> re joejaxx' windows
[20:56] <keescook> so, should we start this meeting an hour earlier in two weeks?  we see to always run out before discussing cve-ubuntu-tracker
[20:56] <keescook> and the todo lists, etc
[20:56] <joejaxx> that sounds good
[20:56] <keescook> [topic] scheduling
[20:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  scheduling
[20:57] <keescook> anyone else have issues with it?
[20:57] <jdstrand> fine by me
[20:57] <propagandist> sounds good to me
[20:57] <keescook> joejaxx: sorry to defer the topics again.  :(
[20:57] <andrea-bs> that's better for me
[20:57] <keescook> joejaxx: anything you can quickly cover about todo list ideas?
[20:57] <keescook> [topic] todo list
[20:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  todo list
[20:57] <joejaxx> same
[20:57] <joejaxx> keescook: it is quite alright
[20:57] <joejaxx> keescook: we can leave that for next time :)
[20:58] <keescook> okay, well, I'd like to shake out the Roadmap to really outline all the kick-ass work we're doing
[20:58] <joejaxx> yeap
[20:58] <keescook> okay, next meeting: Mar 12, 1900UTC
[20:59] <joejaxx> thanks everyone! :)
[20:59] <keescook> thanks everyone for coming!  we'll cover more next time around.  :)
[20:59] <astharot> good
[20:59] <jdstrand> thanks keescook! :)
[20:59] <keescook> #endmeeting
[20:59] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:59.
[20:59] <astharot> thank you
[20:59] <andrea-bs> thanks everyone
[20:59] <michalski> did i miss the meeting?
[21:00] <astharot> michalski: if you are talking about security-meeting, yes :P
[21:00] <michalski> ...the server team
[21:00] <faulkes-> ubuntu-server meeting will be starting shortly
[21:00] <astharot> server team is gonna start, i think
[21:00] <michalski> few haha had me worried
[21:00] <astharot> lol
[21:00] <andrea-bs> @schedule
[21:00] <astharot> dinner is waiting for me, cya around ;)
[21:00] <michalski> cya
[21:00] <mathiaz> hi all !
[21:00] <andrea-bs> see u
[21:00] <faulkes-> heya mathiaz
[21:01] <soren> o/
[21:01] <zul> hello
[21:01]  * nijaba waves
[21:01] <mruiz> hi mathiaz
[21:01] <sommer> yo
[21:01] <kirkland> \n
[21:01] <keescook> \m/
[21:01] <owh> .
[21:01] <michalski> hi
[21:02] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[21:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 21:02. The chair is mathiaz.
[21:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:02] <dendrobates> o/
[21:02] <jdstrand> \o
[21:02] <mathiaz> so - let's get started
[21:02] <mathiaz> current agenda for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[21:02] <jdstrand> \/o
[21:03] <michalski> not alot on the agenda
[21:03] <nijaba> >o
[21:03] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[21:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[21:03] <soren> ☕
[21:03] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080220
[21:04] <mathiaz> As you may have noticed, I've sent a link to the new reporting page
[21:04] <soren> ✌
[21:04]  * faulkes- did
[21:04] <mathiaz> So I'd like to remind everyone to update the ReportingPage
[21:05]  * nijaba hides
[21:05] <michalski> whats nijiba's email? I want to join his beta test
[21:05] <keescook> mathiaz: so, e.g. for my bits, should I just keep this up to date week-to-week?
[21:05] <keescook> (i.e. delete an old entry?)
[21:05] <mathiaz> keescook: yes
[21:05]  * michalski grabs nijaba and hauls him out of his hiding spot
[21:05] <mathiaz> I'm still wondering if we should have a weekly page
[21:05] <mathiaz> or if the monthly page is enough
[21:06] <nijaba> michalski: just msg'd it to you
[21:06] <michalski> do we have enough for a weekly?
[21:06] <mathiaz> for now - just update the ReportingPage with a status report from last week
[21:06] <michalski> k thanks
[21:06] <keescook> mathiaz: and if a section of the roadmap is finished, remove myself from the ReportingPage ?
[21:06] <mathiaz> keescook: nope - ReportingPage is to know what we did
[21:07] <mathiaz> keescook: it will be removed once the MonthlyReport is done.
[21:07] <mathiaz> That's a difference between the ReportingPage and the Roadmap
[21:07] <michalski> supper, back in 20, sorry mathiaz
[21:07]  * nealmcb returns to eir computer
[21:07] <mathiaz> the Roadmap is about the future and ReportingPage is about the past
[21:08] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] mentoring program name
[21:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring program name
[21:09] <mathiaz> dendrobates suggested the use sheperd
[21:09] <mathiaz> a shepherd
[21:09] <mathiaz> using mentor reminds of the MOTU mentoring program
[21:09] <faulkes-> pathfinder ?
[21:09]  * mruiz agrees
[21:10] <faulkes-> although shepherd is fine with me as well
[21:10] <mathiaz> and we're not trying to compete with the MOTU mentoring program
[21:10]  * faulkes- nods
[21:10] <Jeeves_> pathfinder reminds me of a car
[21:11] <ScottK> I think mentor is fine.  Debian uses it too.  It's sufficiently generic.
[21:12] <owh> Would it be a good idea to ask the people who will be mentored?
[21:12] <mathiaz> owh: who will be ? or who would be a mentor ?
[21:13] <owh> I mean, the customer, the person that will receive the mentoring.
[21:13] <mathiaz> for now, I'll be the contact for users who want to embark on the mentoring program.
[21:13] <faulkes-> I think that would indicate a lack of planning on our part if we have to ask them what we want to name the program
[21:13]  * ScottK thinks we probably have more important details to obsess over.
[21:13]  * faulkes- agrees
[21:14] <owh> Ah, we're talking about naming the thing :-) NM
[21:14]  * nealmcb looks around for the best summary-to-date of the concept - is it one-to-one?  or might the mentor hand someone off to a subject-matter-expert?  length of time involved?
[21:14] <mathiaz> ok - so I'll keep the mentoring name for now
[21:14] <mruiz> the name is just a detail
[21:15] <mathiaz> for now, I've summarized my ideas about the Mentoring program on a wiki page
[21:15] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Mentoring
[21:15] <nealmcb> :-)
[21:16] <mathiaz> so - let's move on
[21:16] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Forum reporting
[21:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Forum reporting
[21:16] <mathiaz> faulkes-: any news on that ?
[21:16] <faulkes-> yes
[21:16] <faulkes-> first, the sticky has been put in place, it has been up for a week and has seen 180 views
[21:17] <faulkes-> about ~30 / day or so
[21:17] <dendrobates> faulkes-: I noticed the sticky is locked for comments.  I
[21:18] <faulkes-> next, I began a project to help categorize, summarize and visualize forum questions, from a broad level narrowing it down
[21:18] <mathiaz> faulkes-: that looks promising
[21:18] <jdstrand> dendrobates: you were cut-off at ...comments. I
[21:18] <faulkes-> dendrobates: yes, it is locked, I will add a note asking for any additions or changes to be sent to me
[21:19] <faulkes-> otherwise it tends to grow and the original content gets last paged, which makes it less than useful
[21:19] <dendrobates> faulkes-: I was wondering about general feedback, though
[21:19] <faulkes-> understood, I will look into addressing that
[21:19] <faulkes-> as I was saying, visualizing forum questions
[21:20] <faulkes-> the purpose behind it is to give that "a picture is worth a thousand words" feeling, so that we can easily see what the most common areas of discussion are
[21:20] <faulkes-> and to further be able to drill that down to specific issues
[21:20]  * nijaba hugs faulkes-
[21:20] <faulkes-> version 0.1 is avaiable at http://ubuntu.oss-mgmt.com/
[21:21] <faulkes-> for those of you who had a pre-look, it has been updated with additional graphs
[21:21]  * nealmcb oohs and ahhs :-)
[21:21] <owh> vnice
[21:22] <faulkes-> version 0.2 will include further data, such as links to the forum posts themselves and better categorization
[21:22]  * michalski sits back down
[21:22] <mathiaz> faulkes-: great. How does the categorization work ?
[21:22] <faulkes-> currently, it is one big regex, it will be moved to a array/hash algorithm to better be able to categorize properly
[21:22] <mathiaz> faulkes-: could you give a quick overview ?
[21:23] <faulkes-> it's complicated by the nature of human expression and terminology
[21:23] <mathiaz> faulkes-: right.
[21:23] <faulkes-> i.e. vsftp as an ftp server, would also match in the regex for sftp
[21:23] <mathiaz> faulkes-: do you plan to make the code available ?
[21:23] <faulkes-> giving a false positive
[21:24] <faulkes-> yes, I intend to place the code on LP
[21:24] <michalski> where do you get the stats, faulkes?
[21:24] <faulkes-> that will be done within the next week
[21:24] <michalski> (source)
[21:24] <faulkes-> the backend is written in perl, it connects to the forum and slices out the forum subject/topics
[21:25] <nealmcb> nice that you seem to distinguish between samba questions that are related directory services vs file serving
[21:25] <michalski> ok, so theres no real place to add in your stats
[21:25] <faulkes-> add in how?
[21:26] <michalski> eg: a little form online to mark off what your servers uses and how
[21:26] <nealmcb> can you analyze mailing lists?  irc logs?
[21:26] <nealmcb> is it message-by-message or topic-by-topic?
[21:26] <faulkes-> nealmcb: with some modification, yes, it likely could do that on a topic by topic basis
[21:26] <mathiaz> I think it's a good start.
[21:26] <nijaba> michalski: faulkes and I are preparing a survey for that
[21:26] <faulkes-> message by message is more difficult because multiple things can be related within a single message
[21:26] <michalski> ok thanks nijaba
[21:26] <mathiaz> Once you've put up the code on LP, some people may start to implement other backends.
[21:26]  * nealmcb hugs faulkes
[21:27] <faulkes-> mathiaz: well, I believe that this provides value to us, but it will likely be a tool other teams can use as well
[21:27] <nealmcb> the links to messages will be great
[21:27] <mathiaz> faulkes-: I think so too.
[21:27]  * michalski agrees
[21:27] <owh> You could even apply it to all of Ubuntu.
[21:27] <mathiaz> faulkes-: but let's start small
[21:27] <michalski> experimental
[21:28] <faulkes-> yes, I'm taking it step by step right now
[21:28] <mathiaz> Fujitsu: and get something usefull for analysing the ubuntu server forums
[21:28] <faulkes-> feedback on category naming, sub-categories, and other questions are all welcome
[21:28] <mathiaz> faulkes-: ^^
[21:28] <mathiaz> Fujitsu: sorry
[21:28] <nealmcb> and then try to link things the other way - from common questions back to documentation, faqs and wikis, and identify outages in those
[21:28] <mathiaz> right - so there are a lot of ideas to improve.
[21:28] <owh> faulkes-: Would it be useful to make the configuration of all of that a wiki page?
[21:28] <mathiaz> let's start small
[21:28] <faulkes-> agreed
[21:29] <mathiaz> faulkes-: so - could you setup a LP project and push your code there ?
[21:29] <faulkes-> yes, I will do that
[21:29] <mathiaz> faulkes-: we'll take it from there.
[21:29] <faulkes-> add it as an action item so I don't forget ;)
[21:29] <mathiaz> [ACTION] faulkes- to setup a LP project for the forums analyser
[21:29] <MootBot> ACTION received:  faulkes- to setup a LP project for the forums analyser
[21:29]  * nijaba notes that faulkes- now masters bzr
[21:30] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server survey
[21:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server survey
[21:30] <mathiaz> faulkes-: nijaba : updates ?
[21:30] <faulkes-> nijaba: I have you to thank for that
[21:30] <faulkes-> mathiaz: patches have been submitted and merged to it, I will let nijaba answer more fully
[21:30] <nijaba> soren, I am about to push v.2 of the survey tonight
[21:30] <michalski> looking at server forum questions for directory services, i see alot about samba in general
[21:31] <nijaba> Thanks for a ll the feedback, I think it has improved a lot
[21:31] <michalski> we should recommend to the docs team to improve the docs on it
[21:31] <nijaba> it is not too late to send me an email if you want to test drive it :)
[21:31] <michalski> you didnt give me your email :P
[21:32] <owh> michalski: It's on the wiki page.
[21:32] <faulkes-> nijaba: how comfortable are we with setting a release date for taking the server?
[21:32] <faulkes-> err, survey
[21:32] <michalski> nick barcet?
[21:32] <nijaba> well, we still have some hosting issues
[21:32]  * faulkes- nods
[21:32] <nijaba> I am working on it
[21:32] <michalski> ok thanks
[21:33] <faulkes-> ok, from my perspective, I want to have some advance on it so we can properly publicize it to get maximum responses/exposure
[21:33] <faulkes-> i.e. UWN, Fridge, Forums, etc..
[21:33] <owh> Can we find a way to collectively digg it for example?
[21:33] <nijaba> well, the way we have the question, I don't think we will be able to launch it before April
[21:34] <nealmcb> owh - good idea
[21:34] <kirkland> someone needs to post a blog entry explaining the motivation and goals etc, and then post it to slashdot
[21:34] <mathiaz> nijaba: before hardy is released ?
[21:34] <kirkland> and hope slashdot picks it up
[21:34] <nijaba> mathiaz: yes or around
[21:34] <kirkland> and then pray your server can handle the traffic ;-)
[21:34] <nijaba> so I guess next step is to prepare the text for the annoucement
[21:34] <owh> nijaba: So, lime doesn't host for us then?
[21:35] <mathiaz> so - could we come up with a list of website/ressource we wanna post to ?
[21:35] <nijaba> no, lime is an app, not a hosting provider
[21:35] <owh> I'll be happy to come up with a list and email it to the list.
[21:35] <faulkes-> mathiaz: I think that would be wise, although we want to selectively target the most appropriate sources, rather than shotgun effect it
[21:35] <nijaba> owh, whu not use the wiki?
[21:35] <nijaba> s/whu/why
[21:35] <mathiaz> owh: great - I'd rather use a wiki
[21:35] <owh> Works for me.
[21:36] <nijaba> anybody up to start the announcement?
[21:36]  * michalski hides :P
[21:36] <owh> I'll draft one for the wiki page.
[21:36] <mathiaz> owh: we should target both the ubuntu community and server/companies related sites ?
[21:36] <kirkland> who's blog is most heavily read?
[21:36] <faulkes-> oh, on the subject of forums, if you are doing testing on a new release of a package, feel free to notify me and I can post it to the forums if it's server related
[21:36] <michalski> couldnt we send it to the fridge?
[21:36] <mathiaz> [ACTION] owh to draft a wiki page with a list of ressource where we can announce the survey
[21:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  owh to draft a wiki page with a list of ressource where we can announce the survey
[21:36] <owh> mathiaz: I'll come up with the first list, it will be a wiki page so you can add to it :)
[21:37] <owh> I'll also draft the announcement text.
[21:37] <mathiaz> owh: exactly.
[21:37]  * nijaba hugs owh
[21:37] <owh> :)
[21:37]  * michalski takes a kodak moments
[21:37] <mathiaz> owh: could you create one page under wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ with the text announcement and a list of ressource ?
[21:37] <faulkes-> note: the stats collected by the forum reporting tool will also be able to be analyzed by full / year / month
[21:37] <michalski> * moment
[21:38] <mathiaz> faulkes-: zul uploaded a new version of ebox
[21:38] <owh> mathiaz: Yup, consider it done.
[21:38] <mathiaz> faulkes-: could you post in the forums about testing ebox ?
[21:38] <zul> mathiaz: yep I sent out another announcement to ask for testers again and for feedback
[21:39] <faulkes-> I saw that message, there is already a current thread for him in forums, I will update it
[21:39] <mathiaz> faulkes-: where did you post ? in the server forums or the developer forums ?
[21:39] <faulkes-> server
[21:39] <owh> mathiaz: Will wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ServerSurveyLaunch work for you?
[21:39] <mathiaz> faulkes-: ok.
[21:39] <mathiaz> owh: WFM
[21:40] <michalski> is there a GUI for the firewall config?
[21:40]  * michalski wonders
[21:40] <michalski> (sorry for a tad offtopic
[21:40] <zul> michalski: install ebox-firewall=<version from email>
[21:41] <michalski> ok
[21:41] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] libdb migration
[21:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  libdb migration
[21:41] <mathiaz> ScottK: what's new on this front
[21:42] <ScottK> I updated the wiki.
[21:42] <ScottK> To show what needs to be done for 4.3
[21:42]  * ScottK hasn't done much with it since due to time pressure.
[21:43] <mathiaz> ScottK: are these transition easy to do ?
[21:43] <ScottK> mathiaz: Yes.
[21:43] <mathiaz> ScottK: I'm looking for easy tasks to do for beginners.
[21:43] <mathiaz> ScottK: Do you think these are good task for new comers ?
[21:44] <mathiaz> ScottK: bitesize tasks ?
[21:44] <ScottK> mathiaz: You need to grab the source and make sure they don't use transactions (grep'ing the source is enough) and if not, it's just updating the build-dep/depends
[21:44] <ScottK> Yes.
[21:44] <mathiaz> ScottK: ok.
[21:44] <ScottK> If it uses transactions, then leave it mark it and leave it for someone else.  Those are harder.
[21:44] <mathiaz> ScottK: ok.
[21:44] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Documentation
[21:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  Documentation
[21:45] <mathiaz> sommer: ?
[21:45] <sommer> likewise-open section is available for your reviewing pleasure
[21:45] <sommer> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/likewise-open.html
[21:45] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/likewise-open.html
[21:45] <nijaba> \o/
[21:46] <mathiaz> sommer: which section are left ?
[21:46] <sommer> bacula, virt-manager/libvirt, ebox
[21:46] <sommer> then updates
[21:46] <mathiaz> sommer: well - let's start with virtualization
[21:46] <sommer> path name, package names, etc
[21:46] <sommer> mathiaz: ya, I'm sort of stuck on that one
[21:47] <mathiaz> sommer: yes - that's actually quit an important one.
[21:47] <sommer> since I don't have KVM friendly hardware
[21:47] <mathiaz> sommer: it's one of the big feature for hardy
[21:47] <sommer> mathiaz: ya I know
[21:47] <sommer> I was thinking of documenting what I can then submit it to those with compatible hardware for testing
[21:48] <sommer> should have something by the end of the week
[21:48] <sommer> other ideas are welcome :-)
[21:48] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
[21:48] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[21:49] <nealmcb> has anyone made a vm image of e.g. hardy alpha 5?  faster/easier to try out than a cdimage for many folks
[21:49] <mathiaz> anyone wants to add something ?
[21:49] <michalski> on the note of documentation... samba docs, are they sufficient at current levels?
[21:49] <mathiaz> nealmcb: you can use ubuntu-vm-builder
[21:49] <owh> How do action points from previous meetings get carried forward?
[21:49] <ScottK> mathiaz: You're going to merge cyrus-sasl2, right?
[21:49] <mathiaz> michalski: which part of the documentation are you talking about ?
[21:50] <mathiaz> ScottK: working on it with kirkland
[21:50] <nealmcb> sommer: I'd say ebox doc would also be good sooner rather than later - help attract testers
[21:50] <ScottK> mathiaz: Great.
[21:50] <faulkes-> qemu + ubuntu + ppc != work at least for me with 8.04
[21:50] <kirkland> ScottK: some nasty man page merge issues, working through them still
[21:50] <mathiaz> owh: they should be.
[21:50] <nealmcb> mathiaz: yes indeed - just wondering if anyone had done it, if there would be a way to distribute such things, etc
[21:50] <sommer> nealmcb: yep, hope to have something soon as well
[21:50] <faulkes-> install screen comes up but then video goes all wonky, but it's ppc-server, so I can't really expect alot on that
[21:50] <mathiaz> owh: there is a section about bacula in the ReportingPage
[21:50] <michalski> documentation for directory services, from the stats of faulkes, we can see that alot of questions are for directory services
[21:50] <michalski> more specificly samba
[21:51] <owh> mathiaz: Cool.
[21:51] <nealmcb> after my big symposium next week I should have more time to try that out
[21:51] <faulkes-> one of the key things I have found with the forums, is that pointers to documentation, more often than not, do not point to the official documentation
[21:51] <mathiaz> michalski: ok - did you have a look at the samba section on the server guide ?
[21:51] <faulkes-> and this causes issues
[21:52] <faulkes-> I'm still thinking of a way to properly address that, which is more a social issue
[21:52] <michalski> just a tad mathiaz
[21:52] <nealmcb> faulkes-: yeah - hopefully the likewise work is exactly what a lot of them need
[21:52]  * faulkes- nods
[21:52] <mathiaz> michalski: if you have any comments or modification, don't hesitate to submit a patch to sommer
[21:52] <mathiaz> michalski: or update the wiki pages.
[21:52] <ScottK> faulkes-: I think more effort is needed to merge stuff into the official documentation and prune redudant info from the community docs.
[21:52] <michalski> ok
[21:52] <mathiaz> michalski: the roadmap has a list of pages related to samba.
[21:53] <faulkes-> ScottK: I can't argue against that, I will investigate possibly getting involved
[21:53] <mathiaz> michalski: that needs some cleanup
[21:54] <michalski> I'll see what I can do, but I have zilch experience with Directory services
[21:54] <nealmcb> faulkes-: yes - I agree that figuring out how to link forum questions to our best documentation would help a lot
[21:54] <michalski> either way, i have to go or i'll be late for a meeting out in the real world
[21:54] <michalski> bye
[21:54] <nealmcb> getting better google search results for our documentation would help there also
[21:54] <faulkes-> nealmcb: I will ponder and get creative after a couple of martinis
[21:55] <nealmcb> maybe advertising how to do google searches specific to the official documentation would help
[21:56] <owh> Make it a sticky.
[21:56] <sommer> did we come to a consensus on the documentation motd bug?
[21:56] <mathiaz> sommer: no.
[21:57] <mathiaz> sommer: it's part of a bigger question about seed managment.
[21:57] <sommer> mathiaz: I'm with ya, is there still time to update the motd?
[21:57] <sommer> seems like that may be a new feature?
[21:57] <mathiaz> sommer: well - given that we're past FF, it may be not late.
[21:58] <mathiaz> sommer: it depends on the solution we choose to implement.
[21:58] <mathiaz> sommer: well - given that we're past FF, it may be too late.
[21:59] <sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, I'll try and focus on that at the beginning of the next release cycle
[21:59] <nealmcb> mathiaz: who are the right people to decide what to do with it?
[21:59] <mathiaz> nealmcb: people
[21:59] <sommer> seems like general updates were more important this time :-)
[21:59] <ScottK> We are
[21:59] <mathiaz> nealmcb: from the platform
[22:00] <owh> Is there a meeting after us?
[22:00] <mathiaz> nealmcb: we had a discussion with cjwatson last week
[22:00] <nealmcb> 5 years of having to explain to people how to get to the documentation from the command line would be a drag
[22:00] <mathiaz> and we know what's involved now.
[22:00] <sommer> nealmcb: surely it'll only be the first few months... heh
[22:00] <mathiaz> well - we've got to move on.
[22:00] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
[22:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
[22:01] <mathiaz> next week, same place, same time ?
[22:01] <faulkes-> WFM
[22:01] <owh> .
[22:01] <nijaba> +1
[22:01] <zul> okiely dokely
[22:01] <sommer> o//
[22:01] <nealmcb> I'll be busy then - see you the week after
[22:01] <owh> soren: You got a moment?
[22:01] <faulkes-> good meeting folks
[22:01] <nealmcb> mathiaz: good work - quick meeting
[22:02] <mathiaz> great then- Thanks all - see ya next week
[22:02] <nijaba> thanks *
[22:02] <kirkland> thanks
[22:02] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[22:02] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 22:02.
[22:02] <sommer> later all