[03:32] <Smex> nite folks.
[17:54] <abbra_kadabbra> any forum council members happen to be on?
[17:55] <abbra_kadabbra> I sent a mail to the mailing list but the spam blocker quarantined it.  I just want to know if it finally went through
[18:07] <abbra_kadabbra> ping
[18:13] <persia> This channel generally only has traffic for scheduled meetings.  You'd do better to find a more specific channel (e.g. #ubuntuforums), or wait for the folks you want to have their scheduled meeting.
[18:16] <abbra_kadabbra> thanks
[19:00]  * Pici yawns
[19:00] <jussi> o/
[19:00] <topyli> hi
[19:01] <jussi> have we a tsimpson?
[19:01] <guntbert> thats infectious Pici
[19:01] <topyli> tsimpson was doubtful yesterday
[19:01] <jussi> shall we start in any case? we have 3 of us...
[19:02] <jussi> #startmeeting
[19:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 13:02. The chair is jussi.
[19:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:02] <jussi> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
[19:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
[19:03] <jussi> [topic] #ubuntu-release-party access list
[19:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  #ubuntu-release-party access list
[19:03] <jussi> ikonia: about?
[19:03] <Pici> I don't think he needs to be here for this one.
[19:04] <jussi> right, so someone want to summarise for the record?
[19:05] <Pici> There are a large number of people on the access list in u-r-p, it was crazy last time around.
[19:05] <jussi> So remove the @ubuntu/member access?
[19:06] <Pici> Its open to ubuntu/member/* right now.  Lots of those people are not normally operators
[19:06] <Pici> (laggin here)
[19:06] <persia> Was there significant abuse of that right, or just a crazy number of operators?
[19:06] <Pici> "The last party channel was a very rowdy channel and a strong portition of the ubuntu member cloak holders where not mature enough to manage the channel without playing silly games. I understand the channel is supposed to be a fun place but kicking people for fun and placing bans in a channel is not part of that fun. I would suggest adding the core channel operators to the list and removing the membership cloak access."
[19:07] <Pici> * from the agenda proposal page.
[19:07] <topyli> tsimpson suggested restricting it to core channel ops, since we have no core ops yet
[19:07] <jussi> [idea]I would suggest adding the core channel operators to the list and removing the membership cloak access (ikonia)
[19:07] <MootBot> IDEA received: I would suggest adding the core channel operators to the list and removing the membership cloak access (ikonia)
[19:08] <jussi> I think thats a good idea, basically replicating the -ops +v list with +o instead.
[19:08] <topyli> ah, same suggestion :)
[19:08] <topyli> nhandler said he has a script to copy an access list from one channel to another. this would help if we decide to go that way
[19:09] <jussi> topyli: yes, and then make sure that everyone is op, not just +v.
[19:10] <Pici> Sounds good to me.
[19:10] <topyli> yeah
[19:10] <jussi> ok, lets vote on that...
[19:11] <topyli> question
[19:11] <Pici> answer.
[19:11] <topyli> i haven't been to the channel in a few years, too old
[19:11] <topyli> is that enough ops for the channel?
[19:11] <jussi> topyli: I think so.
[19:12] <jussi> if its not, we can revisit the idea.
[19:12] <Daviey> I'm actually more concerned about the point that Ubuntu Members haven't been acting in a proper way previously.
[19:12] <topyli> jussi, ok, i'm going to believe you :)
[19:12] <Pici> I think we should allow for common sense when adding ops on-the-fly
[19:12] <jussi> [vote] add the core channel operators to the list (#ubuntu-ops +V list) and removing the membership cloak access
[19:12] <MootBot> Please vote on:  add the core channel operators to the list (#ubuntu-ops +V list) and removing the membership cloak access.
[19:12] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:12] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:12] <Pici> Daviey: Its more that they're not used to operator duties.
[19:13] <Pici> and the problems that come along with that.
[19:13] <Pici> +1
[19:13] <MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:13] <jussi> +1
[19:13] <topyli> +1
[19:13] <MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:13] <MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[19:13] <jussi> [endvote]
[19:13] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
[19:13] <ikonia> jussi: yes
[19:13] <jussi> awesome. now then:
[19:14] <jussi> [topic] Consider deactivating/re-purposing the ~ubuntu-irc team on launchpad
[19:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Consider deactivating/re-purposing the ~ubuntu-irc team on launchpad
[19:14] <jussi> [idea] As for ~ubuntu-irc, I haven't seen any good ideas on how to re-purpose it right now, so I would propose removing all members, making it restricted, and adjusting the description to "disable" it for now (nhandler)
[19:14] <MootBot> IDEA received:  As for ~ubuntu-irc, I haven't seen any good ideas on how to re-purpose it right now, so I would propose removing all members, making it restricted, and adjusting the description to "disable" it for now (nhandler)
[19:15] <topyli> i have heard anyone come up with a viable use for it so far
[19:15] <jussi> so, thoughts on this?
[19:15] <topyli> have not, even
[19:15] <ikonia> could it not be used for irc related dicussion ?
[19:15] <jussi> ikonia: the LP group?
[19:16] <ikonia> oh, sorry the actual group, miss-read
[19:16] <jussi> :)
[19:16] <jussi> Im with nhandler here.
[19:16] <Pici> I'd like to see it eventually turn into our irc-community participants group. Since we currently don't have any way of quantifying that.
[19:16] <ikonia> Pici: could you expand on that a little for me please ?
[19:17] <jussi> I dont think we need to come up with exactly what it needs to become in the future, but just that for now it should be disabled.
[19:17] <Pici> ikonia: Its a bit vauge, but we don't have a group right now that includes people in our communtiy that partipate that are not operators.
[19:17] <persia> Pici: So a container for the polity that e.g. votes to confirm IRCC?
[19:18] <ikonia> Pici: perfect, thank you
[19:18] <jussi> Yeah, we are working on the membership thing, but that still excludes a lot.
[19:18] <Pici> persia: yes.
[19:18] <Pici> jussi: Yes, but its a start.  We have nothing now.
[19:18] <topyli> Pici, i like that
[19:18] <Pici> Besides operators.
[19:18] <jussi> yes
[19:19] <persia> You might just set to be a moderated team, disable anyone not in ~ubuntumembers, and process the join requests e.g. weekly based on membership in ~ubuntumembers.
[19:19] <jussi> ok, so the thought is that we disable it for now and think about what it should become, perhaps with some public discussion on the list?
[19:19] <persia> But I'd recommend checking with the CC about polity definition: there may be reasons to poll the entirety of ~ubuntumembers, even though some folk are rarely on IRC.
[19:20] <jussi> persia: the CC dont want us polling all of them
[19:20] <Pici> I don't see value in closing it and deactivating its members.
[19:21]  * persia stops attempting to get folk to repeat history
[19:21] <jussi> Pici: why?
[19:21] <persia> For what it's worth, I agree with Pici: I think that's needlessly disruptive if the purpose remains undefined.
[19:21] <Pici> Agreed.
[19:22] <jussi> thing is, for me, we need to create a clean slate. Its currently confusing to people - I had someone PM just yesterday (ne op in a loco) asking if they should join it.
[19:23] <Pici> jussi: Everyone who is in it right now should be in it if we turn it into a 'community users' group.
[19:23] <topyli> i guess the current members of the group would be included in any larger group we imagine
[19:24] <Pici> If we aren't sure what to do with it at this juncture, then I suggest that we change it's description to say that.
[19:24] <jussi> ok, so perhaps not cleaning it out, but putting something in the description?
[19:24] <jussi> lol
[19:24] <Pici> :)
[19:24] <jussi> great minds
[19:24] <jussi> ok, Id agree with that.
[19:25] <topyli> "Ubuntu IRC thingy"
[19:25] <jussi> [vote] Change the description of ~ubuntu-irc to reflect its current state of disuse, think about the future use of it.
[19:25] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Change the description of ~ubuntu-irc to reflect its current state of disuse, think about the future use of it..
[19:25] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:25] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:25] <jussi> +1
[19:25] <MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:25] <Pici> +1
[19:25] <MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:25] <topyli> +1
[19:25] <MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[19:26] <jussi> [endvote]
[19:26] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
[19:26] <jussi> ok, great. next item:
[19:26] <jussi> [topic] Create policy on external logging of channels (ircanswers.com)
[19:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Create policy on external logging of channels (ircanswers.com)
[19:27] <Pici> Can anyone give some backstory on what this is.  I only caught part of the conversation in u-irc.
[19:27] <jussi> So, I think as long as a party requests it and is not malicious, there is no reason to say no.
[19:27] <jussi> Pici: go look at the url ;)
[19:28] <Pici> jussi: It looks like a metabot-like thing.
[19:28] <Pici> but on a website
[19:28] <jussi> Pici: it basically is metabot transcribed to the web
[19:28] <jussi> :D
[19:28] <Pici> jussi: stop that!
[19:28] <jussi> hehe
[19:28] <topyli> the ircanswers.com owner/maintainer realised he should ask permission to use our logs, and did so
[19:29] <jussi> yes, because freenode klined him
[19:29] <Pici> oh?
[19:29] <ikonia> why should we allow 3rd party bots to log in #ubuntu channels ?
[19:29] <topyli> we have a precedent from 2007, when irseek was discussed
[19:29] <jussi> ikonia: why not?
[19:29] <ikonia> jussi: because ubuntu logs the channels publicly, those logs are available, why invite others
[19:30] <ikonia> those are the official logs - use them or do not, but having more and more bots to log channels opens the door
[19:30] <ikonia> why would we allow some, and not others
[19:30] <jussi> the thing is, whether they pull from own logs or the web logs makes no difference, except a bit of server loat, no?
[19:30] <topyli> ikonia, for arguments aready used in a similar matter, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/IRSeekDiscussion
[19:30] <ikonia> we provide official logs - they are there for public use
[19:30] <ikonia> ok - so I disagree with that argument totally
[19:31] <Pici> ikonia: why?
[19:31] <ikonia> Pici: why can they not use the logs we provide, why do they have to hav a bot
[19:31] <ikonia> have even
[19:31] <ikonia> the precidence is set, if we allow ircseek we have to allow others
[19:31] <ikonia> what makes them special
[19:32] <topyli> i guess their bot parses the logs nicely for their use. who knows, that's their business
[19:32] <ikonia> I thought one of the reason we provide logs is to stop this sort of argument
[19:32] <topyli> ikonia, we will allow others
[19:32] <ikonia> topyli: I have no issue with them parsing the logs, but not running a bot
[19:32] <ikonia> topyli: why ?
[19:32] <jussi> ikonia: we want to advance ubuntu, not hold it back. I dont see anything about this that is bad for our community?
[19:32] <ikonia> topyli: where it the line, how many ?
[19:32] <ikonia> jussi: why would this not advance ubuntu,
[19:32] <ikonia> why would the policy of use the official logs be a holding back of ubuntu ?
[19:33] <ikonia> from trusted sources
[19:33] <Pici> ikonia: Why is having other people log #ubuntu an issue?
[19:33]  * persia notes that sometimes the official logbots miss a couple days in one channel or another
[19:33] <topyli> a trusted source is no guarantee of the integrity of the service. whether they use our logs or their own makes no difference
[19:34] <ikonia> Pici: because you could end up with a channel of bots
[19:34] <ikonia> Pici: there is a no unofficial bot policy in ubuntu, and it works well
[19:34] <jussi> The fact is, that we can say, yes, you can have your bot there, as long as you ask nicely and promise not to be nasty, or the person can go grab logs from canonical and eat bandwidth. this way, we know who is doing it.
[19:34] <ikonia> Pici: how do you know what these bots that log do apart from log ?
[19:34] <ikonia> jussi: no you don't know who's doing it or what else it's doing
[19:34] <Pici> jussi: +1
[19:35] <ikonia> jussi: the canonical logs are there to BE parsed
[19:36] <jussi> ikonia: as long as the bot/irssi+script/whatever is silent, how does that harm us? if we do it this way, we know which bots are logging and we can keep an eye on them
[19:37] <ikonia> jussi: I disagree, but I'm not going to die if you impliment this. It just seems to go %100 turn around on the no official bots policy to "all silent bots welcome"
[19:37] <jussi> we also find out more about different ubuntu sites, and we make it easier for people to spread ubuntu.
[19:37] <ikonia> how are we interested in different ubuntu sites
[19:37] <ikonia> that's nothing to do with irc council
[19:37] <jussi> ikonia: no, silent bots welcome with permission.
[19:37] <Pici> ikonia: no, its "silent bots welcome as long as we know about them"
[19:37] <jussi> lol
[19:37] <Pici> o...
[19:38] <ikonia> how are these bots to be tracked ?
[19:38] <jussi> We can use the wiki for a list of approved logging bots.
[19:38] <guntbert> I'm more comfortable with ikonia's approach -- everybody can parse the official logs
[19:38] <ikonia> I assume we'll need a tracking page, with bot owner contact details and rules such as must be authenticated against freenode ?
[19:39] <Pici> guntbert: But that way we don't know who is parsing those logs.  This way we do.
[19:39] <jussi> ikonia: we already have such a page for official bots
[19:39] <jussi> ikonia: so replicating that for extrnal logging bots wont be too hard.
[19:39] <ikonia> jussi: yes, but I'm talking about making that more official, with rules such as must be authenticated against freenode, must have an active email account etc, crterial
[19:39] <jussi> or even just adding a section
[19:39] <ikonia> critera
[19:40] <ikonia>  jussi the current approved bots are trusted, these new ones will not be, hence why I'm suggesting rules and guidelines
[19:40] <jussi> ikonia: yes, thats what I was thinking also. this is about creating the poolicy for that.
[19:40] <guntbert> Pici: yes, but what good wolud that knowledge do? is there man/womanpower to check and recheck and look at the outcomes?
[19:41] <guntbert> *would
[19:42] <topyli> we can deal with someone asking permission, checking what they're doing, making sure they satisfy freenode's guidelines and saying 'ok'
[19:42] <jussi> I think we need to specify that any logs taken need to go into the public domain.
[19:43] <ikonia> why ?
[19:43] <Pici> There isn't any manpower being wasted on the bots that we do know about.
[19:43] <ikonia> what is the point of allowing bots to log and then put in the public domain the same as the offical logs?  once they log the data they can do what they want with it
[19:43] <jussi> and we need to of course run this by canonicals legal dept
[19:44] <ikonia> again - why ? we make the logs public
[19:44] <Pici> I don't see any reason to say anything about the logs themselves.  They are already in the public domain.
[19:44] <ikonia> exactly, suggesting I have to public logs when I may want them for a private application development test is wrong
[19:45] <Pici> jussi: They're public domain, that means that anyone can do with them as they please. They are not being released under a license with specific terms.
[19:45] <jussi> right
[19:45] <topyli> we can't demand anything regarding the logs
[19:45] <Pici> So we cannot tell Joe Botowner that he needs to release his logs under the public-domain as well.
[19:46] <Amaranth> What channels will they be allowed to log?
[19:46] <Pici> Amaranth: good question.
[19:46] <Pici> I say only the core support channels.
[19:46] <Amaranth> Everything? Everything but -offtopic? Only #ubuntu? etc
[19:46] <jussi> I say the same conditions as irseek
[19:46] <Pici> Plus #ubuntu-meeting
[19:47] <Pici> s/meeting/classroom/
[19:47] <topyli> Amaranth, the irseek decision page says: 1) channels with 'UbuntuIrcCouncil as contact, 2) already publically logged
[19:47] <Amaranth> irseek was only allowed to log channels ubuntubot is in then, right?
[19:47] <jussi> This initial permission extends only to channels satisfying the following conditions:
[19:47] <jussi> Channel has 'ubuntuirccouncil' as contact with chanserv.
[19:47] <jussi> Channel is already logged at irclogs.ubuntu.com by 'ubuntulog'
[19:47] <jussi> The IRSeek bot must also satisfy the freenode guidelines, mainly it should not be torified and should be easily identifiable by nickname.
[19:47] <jussi> Amaranth: correct
[19:47] <topyli> ok now you're doing it to me too
[19:47] <Pici> gag
[19:47] <Pici> er, hah
[19:47] <Amaranth> hehe
[19:47] <Pici> or gag too, thats fitting.
[19:48] <ScottK> IRC logs are not public domain.
[19:48] <Amaranth> Don't we delay the logs though?
[19:48] <ScottK> At least in the US.
[19:48] <ikonia> ScottK: how can they not be, ubuntu posts them on a public website with no terms of use?
[19:49] <persia> I believe they are protected as public speech in most jurisdictions, which typically allows arbitrary use of content if the speaker was aware they were being recorded.
[19:49] <Amaranth> ikonia: That makes them "All rights reserved"
[19:49] <Pici> They aren't posted to a website in the US...
[19:49]  * persia could be mistaken
[19:49] <ikonia> Pici: ahh, so the domain location is key
[19:49]  * Pici shrugs
[19:49] <ScottK> Hard to say, but in the US it's almost impossible for something created since Mickey Mouse to be public domain.
[19:49] <Pici> I am not a lawyer./
[19:49] <ScottK> It really just applies to a narrow category of works created by the government.
[19:50] <persia> Pici: The only places that don't default to "All Rights Reserved" are Nicaragua and Honduras, and they default to "Most Rights Reserved".
[19:50] <topyli> there's an extensive literature on public mailing lists, forum posts and irc logs, which i don't encourage anyone to read. in a nutshell, the consensus is those are public domain
[19:50] <jussi> but in anycase, we can consult canonical's legal eagles before actioning anything if need be.
[19:51] <persia> topyli: The consensus is that the are publically available on open fora.  Avoid saying "public domain" as it has a specific meaning which may not apply.
[19:51] <ScottK> topyli: What persia said.
[19:51] <Amaranth> So what if they put up logs faster than ubuntulog?
[19:52] <ScottK> I don't see that ubuntulog has any more or less rights to what I say on IRC than anyone else.
[19:52] <jussi> Amaranth: is there an issue there? do we delay the logs for any reason but practicality?
[19:52] <Amaranth> jussi: I don't know, that's my question, really
[19:52] <ScottK> If it's OK for ubuntulog to publish logs of what I say on IRC, then it's OK for anyone to do so.
[19:53] <jussi> Amaranth: afaik, its just that the cron job is hourly.
[19:53] <ikonia> maybe council should vote on concpet, then make rules later
[19:53] <topyli> so we take down our logs and start asking users to sign an agreement before publishing logs on ubuntulogs.org?
[19:53] <Pici> No
[19:53] <topyli> i didn't think so
[19:53] <persia> topyli: Check the ToS of freenode: I expect it covers the implicit agreement that comments may be logged.
[19:54] <jussi> yeah, the motd has something iirc
[19:54] <persia> (if it doesn't, that's a flaw, as lots of things that pretend to be humans log)
[19:54] <ScottK> But once again, ubuntulog doesn't have any special rights over any other logger
[19:54] <Pici> I say we replace the entrymsg with something that says that your logs may be published by the entities listed at $SOMEURL
[19:54] <jussi> ScottK: freenode says that people cant log unless they ask permission first
[19:55] <ScottK> jussi: That isn't what I said.
[19:55] <Pici> And at $SOMEURL, we list the people that have asked and have been granted permission.
[19:55] <jussi> ScottK: so yes, it does, it has permission.
[19:55] <ScottK> Mostly what I said is that the specific term public domain doesn't apply.
[19:55] <jussi> Pici: that makes sense.
[19:56] <ScottK> Pici: What gives you the right to give permission on my behalf?
[19:56] <ikonia> council, how about beyond logging bots, bots that are silent, such as the bridge bots of late, that have bridged #ubuntu to other irc networks ?
[19:56] <topyli> ScottK, i'll use another term once i think of one :)
[19:56] <ScottK> topyli: Good.
[19:57] <Pici> ScottK: If you can come up with a better idea, I'd love to hear it.
[19:58] <Pici> freenode's motd states that users should be informed of public logging by a channel entry message or channel topic.  I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that this says that we are allowed to publically log channels.
[19:58] <ScottK> Pici: Mostly I think that if you try to come up with rules about who can log and what a log bot is, it's a minefield.
[19:58] <ScottK> Pici: Sounds like as long as such an entry message is present.
[19:58] <ikonia> ScottK: that was part of my point, easier to say, no bpts
[19:58] <ikonia> bots
[19:59] <ScottK> Of course that's just taking the logs.
[19:59] <ikonia> just maintain official bots
[19:59] <ScottK> The matter of publishing them and redistributing them is another question.
[19:59] <ikonia> I am interested to see views on the bots that do more than log, such as the bridge bots ?
[19:59] <ScottK> ikonia: So when I'm not connected to my quassel core, is it a bot?
[19:59] <jussi> - By connecting to freenode you indicate that you have read
[19:59] <jussi> - and agree to adhere to our policies and procedures as per
[19:59] <jussi> - the website (http://freenode.net). We would like to remind
[19:59] <jussi> - you that unauthorized public logging of channels on the
[19:59] <jussi> - network is prohibited. Public channel logging should only
[19:59] <jussi> - take place where the channel owner(s) has requested this
[19:59] <jussi> - and users of the channel are all made aware (if you are
[19:59] <jussi> - publically logging your channel, you may wish to keep a
[19:59] <jussi> - notice in topic and perhaps as a on-join message).
[19:59] <ikonia> ScottK: no more less than my /away log
[19:59] <jussi> Sorry for the paste, but its useful.
[20:00] <jussi> ScottK: its about publishing the logs.
[20:00] <ScottK> Right, so how is a bot different?
[20:00] <persia> That's the bit that protects freenode in jurisdictions that grant protection to public speech.  As noted, it's best practice to indicate a channel is logged, if the logs are to be published, as the lack of informed consent makes it unacceptable in most jurisdictions.
[20:01] <ikonia> ScottK: bots can do more, such as the bridge bots I'm refercing to
[20:01] <ikonia> ScottK: I have no issue with logging, it's public anyway, I'm more intereted in control of the bots and what "else" they do
[20:01] <Pici> ikonia: you're the only one discussing that though...
[20:01] <ScottK> OK.
[20:01] <persia> So, technically, it's essential to have notice in every channel in which the log bot is that it's logging each user.
[20:01] <persia> (in many places)
[20:01] <ikonia> Pici: if it's a non-valid point, I can leave it
[20:01] <persia> ubuntulog may not currently comply as much as one would like.
[20:01] <Pici> persia: Those should already be in place.
[20:02] <jussi> yes, if they you nice one that isnt, please let us know.
[20:02] <jussi> persia: remember the xubuntu is logged factoid request? ;)
[20:02] <persia> Pici: I know of counter-cases, but yes, *should*.  Point stands, that there should be a documented place that lists the loggers, which then gives them the special rights that ScottK asks about.  Other loggers souldn't be there.
[20:02] <Pici> persia: I agree, we should create that.
[20:03] <jussi> persia: exactly what we said 20 mins ago :)
[20:03] <persia> Yes.
[20:04] <jussi> ok, so a vote?
[20:05] <ikonia> jussi: before you vote, I'd like to know if this is just for logging bots, or any silent bot
[20:05] <Pici> er, this has always been about logging.
[20:05] <jussi> [vote] Public log bots be allowed with a set of conditions and list of bots documented on a wiki page
[20:05] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Public log bots be allowed with a set of conditions and list of bots documented on a wiki page.
[20:05] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:05] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[20:05] <ikonia> ok, thank you
[20:06] <Pici> +1
[20:06] <MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[20:06] <jussi> +1
[20:06] <MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:06] <topyli> +1
[20:06] <MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[20:06] <jussi> [endvote]
[20:06] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
[20:06] <jussi> right, so who wants to get at least the bareboes of such a wiki page up?
[20:07] <topyli> could copy a skeleton from the irseek discussion page
[20:08] <jussi> yeah
[20:08] <persia> Might I suggest one additional rule: that channel operators are responsible for ensuring that public notice is provided if they allow the logbots (including ubuntulog) to enter their channels?
[20:09] <topyli> making sure the topic includes "channel is logged" would be good
[20:09] <Pici> persia: I believe that is already present on the wiki page regarding creating new channels.
[20:09] <Pici> We should double check though
[20:09] <jussi> yeah, i think Pici is right
[20:09] <persia> Pici: Yes, but it's not part of the logbot request process, which is the gap.
[20:09] <jussi> ok, anything else?
[20:09]  * persia knows lots of folk who created channels in the namespace who have only a passing famliarity with the guide
[20:10] <Pici> Who is doing the u-r-p stuff? That channel should probably be opened soon/now.
[20:10] <Pici> I've already heard a few questions about when it is supposed to open
[20:10] <jussi> Pici: you volunteering? or did nhandler say he could do it?
[20:10] <Pici> jussi: I'd be happy to do it in nhandler's absense./
[20:11] <gnomefreak> IRCC meeting?
[20:11] <nhandler> I can do it Pici
[20:11] <nhandler> Sorry for missing the meeting
[20:11] <jussi> gnomefreak: almost done
[20:11] <Pici> gnomefreak: just finishing.
[20:11] <jussi> lol
[20:11] <Pici> . . .
[20:11] <topyli> nhandler, just in time for volunteering for tasks!
[20:12] <nhandler> :)
[20:12] <jussi> I need to go. so Ill end the meeting, but feel free to sort stuff as needed
[20:12] <nhandler> I also noticed no action for updating ~ubuntu-irc. I can do that if nobody wants
[20:12] <Pici> nhandler: We had discussed copying the access list from -ops (those with +v) to u-r-p but to +o
[20:12] <nhandler> I saw
[20:12] <jussi> [endmeeting]
[20:12] <Pici> nhandler: Will your script do that? if not I'll do it manually.
[20:12] <nhandler> I can script that to save time
[20:12] <Pici> okay :)
[20:12] <nhandler> Pici: With a slight modification it should
[20:12] <jussi> #endmeeting
[20:12] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:12.
[20:13] <jussi> laters all
[20:13] <gnomefreak> while i have everyone here. any chance we can keep +1 open or at least open it when toolchain lands?
[20:13] <topyli> thanks gusy
[20:13] <ikonia> gnomefreak: yes please
[20:13] <nhandler> [action] nhandler to update release party access list
[20:13] <jussi> oh +1 to re-open when toolchain lands.
[20:13] <Pici> I say make it +im until the toolchain lands on... the 6th is it?
[20:13] <jussi> Pici: +1. now im gone
[20:14] <Pici> k :)
[20:14] <nhandler> I am fine with that Pici
[20:14] <gnomefreak> its win 3 for me and i know first 20 channels so it screws me uup :(
[20:14] <nhandler> Who wants the ~ubuntu-irc action?
[20:14] <Pici> nhandler: do you need to clear out the current access list, or will your script take care of that?
[20:14] <Pici> rather, need me to clear it out.
[20:14] <nhandler> Pici: I can take care of that
[20:14] <Pici> okay :)
[20:15] <topyli> i'll create the bot wiki thingy
[20:16] <topyli> we'll then hack it to pieces and remove my big fat "DRAFT" header
[20:16] <nhandler> topyli: Maybe just add a section to the already existing bot page
[20:16] <nhandler> [action] topyli to make bot list on wiki
[20:16] <topyli> nhandler, good idea, it's not that big
[20:16] <nhandler> [action] nhandler to update ~ubuntu-irc
[20:16] <nhandler> Who is doing minutes/updating wiki? jussi ?
[20:17] <Pici> I suppose.
[20:19] <topyli> traditionally, perks of the chair isn't it?


[14:35] <adom> unsure why my nick keeps changing to adom_
[14:35] <adom> im only logged in from one location


[21:51] <sredna2> what is the package i have to install to get c++ development tools?
[21:51] <nosrednaekim> like the compiler?
[21:52] <nosrednaekim> hoens`rZ: with the nv driver?
[21:52] <hoens`rZ> nosrednaekim: aye
[21:52] <sredna2> nosrednaekim: i appear to have gcc, but not c++ for example
[21:52] <NickPresta> sredna2, 'g++', 'build-essential'?
[21:52] <sredna2> NickPresta: thanks :-)
[21:52] <sredna2> build-essential is it
[21:53] <hoens`rZ> nosrednaekim: should i install nvidia-glx-legacy or nvidia-glx-new?
[21:53] <ubuntu> any way i can speed up .wmv movies on 64bit ubuntu? =/
[21:53] <nosrednaekim> hoens`rZ: give -new a shot
[21:53] <amrush> anyone can help me in retreiving what has been deleted from my trash can ?
[21:53] <NickPresta> amrush, what filesystem are you using?
[21:55] <amrush> nickpresta .. ext2
[21:55] <hoens`rZ> nosrednaekim: still nothing :E
[21:55] <NickPresta> amrush, first google result is this: http://www.stud.tu-ilmenau.de/~mojo/undelete.html
[21:56] <NickPresta> amrush, check out the 'e2undel' package too. It allows you to interactively undelete files
[21:56] <NickPresta> although none of this is promised to work, AFAIK
[21:56] <nosrednaekim> hoens`rZ: if its a server.... just use Vesa....
[21:56] <nosrednaekim> hoens`rZ: you can probably get vesa up to 1025x768
[21:56] <nosrednaekim> *4
[21:56] <fgh> amrush: use photorec
[21:57] <fgh> amrush: it's part of testdisk suite
[21:57] <amrush> nickpresta, fgh .. thanks .. but one by one ..
[21:57] <Exilant> ubuntu, well, what player are you using?
[21:58] <ubuntu> Exilant: kaffeine
[21:58] <fgh> ahh, yeah.. photorec is annoying like that.. no limitation on files it picks up (like only X file size, or X name).
[21:59] <Exilant> hm, never found out the options with kaffeine. you could try another player, mplayer or the like, but i guess kaffeine should be alright
[22:00] <hoens`rZ> lol nosrednaekim, now vesa doesn't work o_O
[22:00] <ubuntu> Exilant: any ideas?
[22:01] <Exilant> don't have any wmv files, so i never had problems
[22:03] <jesse> HELLO
[22:04] <SlimeyPete> hi.
[22:04] <nosrednaekim> hoens`rZ: heh.,..... set it to vesa and try rebooting
[22:04] <nosrednaekim> you probably got it all confused
[22:05] <ubuntu> how can i install restricted driver for my GPU? it aint automatically detected, i supposed it will be =/
[22:05] <nosrednaekim> ubuntu: what graphics card?
[22:05] <Exilant> ubuntu: i really don't know, i once learned a bit of mplayer tuning, but that was on a 233MHz machine, an x64 shouldn't have any problems even with full hd
[22:06] <Exilant> maybe xoverlay doesn't work for you? or is it just wmv, and avi works or so?
[22:06] <ubuntu> nosrednaekim: gf 8600 gt
[22:06] <ubuntu> Exilant: avi plays even better that on windows
[22:06] <ubuntu> than*
[22:07] <ubuntu> but only wmv is crap, i guess it will be codec-related stuff
[22:07] <Exilant> probably
[22:07] <Exilant> restricted-manager doesn't offer you sth. for your gpu?
[22:07] <nosrednaekim> ubuntu: install the "nvidia-glx-new" package as well as "nvidia-settings"
[22:08] <fgh> You know, looking at apt-list now, is enabling the deb and deb-src redundant for multiverse, universe, main, main restricted et al. ?
[22:08] <nosrednaekim> fgh: no
[22:08] <ubuntu> i got em enabled
[22:08] <ubuntu> dling stuff now, restrcted manager doesnt offer me
[22:08] <ubuntu> but mayb cause i am live cd :>
[22:09] <fgh> I can't figure why i'd need them though nosrednaekim, since it doesn't seem those install as anything?
[22:09] <fgh> i realise if i was a developer but... for my avg use i mean, is it redundant / needed?
[22:10] <fgh> will bad nanny boo bo happen to me if i disable them? :)
[22:10] <nosrednaekim> you don't need deb-src
[22:10] <nosrednaekim> thats only for course debs, and generally only developers need them
[22:10] <nosrednaekim> *source
[22:11] <fgh> gotcha, saves ubuntu some bw / me a lot of time probably to disable those so thanks.
[22:11] <nosrednaekim> yeah
[22:12] <amrush> fgh, recovering stuff .. thanks ..
[22:14] <Exilant> ubuntu: you might have some problems on the livecd getting them to load, though
[22:15] <fgh> np, what tool did you wind up using?
[22:15] <fgh> i'm always on the lookout for those things amrush
[22:15] <fgh> oh, nm.. gone pff
[22:15] <ubuntu> crap, i need to reboot machine =/ so  i guess i will install kubuntu and try compiz there
[22:16] <Exilant> ubuntu: well, i guess in theory you just need to restart X
[22:17] <ubuntu> Exilant: i did, it didnt appeared
[22:17] <Exilant> but i don't know how feasible it's with the livecd
[22:17] <ubuntu> yeah that is the prob i guess
[22:17] <Exilant> you also changed xorg.conf?
[22:17] <ubuntu> sudo nvidia-xconfig did
[22:17] <Exilant> ah, ok
[22:18] <Exilant> yeah, probably all that auto-stuff prevents it
[22:18] <ubuntu> Exilant: r u using compiz personally?
[22:19] <Exilant> no, i have it installed
[22:19] <Exilant> but it doesn't work well with google earth or other opengl apps
[22:22] <ubuntu> ah, u using 32 or 64bit ?
[22:23] <dwidmann_laptop> 64-bit ftw
[22:28] <viperserv2> how do i setup proftp to fxp on ubunto?
[22:29] <ubuntu> Exilant: one more thing plz, do u know how to make apt downloads faster?
[22:29] <dwidmann_laptop> viperserv2: if you're looking for something quick and don't want to mess around with setup, you might also want to consider sftp (openssh-server package) or pure-ftpd
[22:29] <dwidmann_laptop> ubuntu: pick a faster mirror :P
[22:30] <ubuntu> dwidmann_laptop: uh
[22:30] <Exilant> ubuntu: dunno, i think they are lightning fast
[22:30] <ubuntu> dwidmann_laptop: any how to on that plz? :>
[22:31] <Exilant> look into /etc/apt/sources.list
[22:31] <Exilant> dunno what mirrors the livecd uses
[22:32] <Exilant> maybe you can replace them with sk mirrors
[22:32] <dwidmann_laptop> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archivemirrors would be a good place to start ubuntu
[22:32] <ubuntu> dwidmann_laptop: thx
[22:32] <ubuntu> Exilant: just did that
[22:32] <ubuntu> Exilant: working :P
[22:32] <ubuntu> thx
[22:32] <Exilant> :)
[22:32] <dwidmann_laptop> ubuntu: basically it involves editing your /etc/apt/sources.list (frontends like adept and synaptic work too) and changing the site
[22:33] <ubuntu> i did it
[22:33] <ubuntu> i prefer shell that some gui
[22:33] <xomp> hey folks, does the standard Ubuntu Hardy CD come with KDE4? Or will I have to download all the packages for KDE4 once I install Hardy?
[22:34] <ubuntu> xomp: there r 2 versions of kubuntu
[22:34] <BluesKaj> i tmakes no difference apt and adept DL the pkges fromn the same sources
[22:34] <ubuntu> one with kde4 and one with kde3
[22:34] <xomp> ubuntu, well I already have a Hardy Ubuntu CD and I'm all out of blank CD's, just curious if the standard version came with KDE4 or not.
[22:35] <BluesKaj> xiomp there's a mix DL that has hardy+kede4
[22:35] <ubuntu> xomp: nop standard version of kubuntu is using kde 3.5.9
[22:35] <xomp> I thought I saw an option for kde4 when I installed this
[22:36] <ubuntu> kde4 is another cd
[22:38] <xomp> ok
[22:39] <BluesKaj> ubuntu hardy+kde4 is here http://www.kubuntu.org/
[22:40] <dwidmann_laptop> xomp: sudo apt-get install kubuntu-kde4-desktop
[22:40] <xomp> so if I want a copy of ubuntu with kde4 as the wm then I'll need to download kubuntu, I'd prefer not to have gnome loaded as I find the menu to be a bit busy with two wm's.
[22:40] <dwidmann_laptop> xomp: be sure to have updates and backports *universe* turned on.
[22:41] <xomp> dwidmann_laptop, I have it installed now, just don't want gnome anymore. Wasn't sure if there was a way to remove gnome or not.
[22:42] <dwidmann_laptop> xomp: google for "purekde" and you'll surely find what you're looking for
[22:42] <BluesKaj> sudo apt-get remove gnome desktop
[22:42] <xomp> dwidmann_laptop, so I'm more apt to just redoing everything again as not to bother anybody with "How do I do this? I'm a linux noob"
[22:42] <BluesKaj> err gnome-desktop
[22:42] <xomp> BluesKaj, ah, cool :) Thanks!
[22:43] <dwidmann_laptop> xomp: that will only remove the gnome-desktop metapackage ... it won't get rid of the gnome packages ...
[22:43] <xomp> dwidmann_laptop, ok, so look for purekde? Is that a ubuntu version perchance?
[22:43] <BonesolTeraDyne> !purekde
[22:43] <BluesKaj> xomp, then , sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop , (for kde3.5.9)
[22:44] <dwidmann_laptop> it's the number one hit on google, it also happens to be the link the bot just gave you.
[22:44] <BonesolTeraDyne> It took the silent one to bring out a simple fix in the form of a link... XD
[22:45] <BluesKaj> gnome still has some useful apps
[22:45] <ubuntu> lika?
[22:45] <ubuntu> llike?
[22:45] <BonesolTeraDyne> BluesKaj: GTK, or GNOME itself?
[22:45] <BluesKaj> synaptic for one
[22:45] <MilitantPotato> I have a logitech MX518, I have the side buttons working in firefox and other browsers, how do I get them to work in Konqueror?
[22:46] <dwidmann_laptop> BluesKaj: I'll give you that, synaptic is pretty good.
[22:46] <dwidmann_laptop> But given a bit more time I think adept will catch up.
[22:46]  * BonesolTeraDyne hopes that was sarcasam
[22:47] <BluesKaj> I think gnome apps are fine , just care for the desktop look and feel
[22:47] <BluesKaj> err don't
[22:47] <dwidmann_laptop> I can't stand most gnome apps .... they are weak....
[22:48] <BonesolTeraDyne> XD Nor do I. I like Exaile, SeaMonkey, and Logjam, but perfer KDE
[22:48] <introubleee> Hey people. I have a kubuntu machine and X doesn't seem to start. I get as far as the end of the progress bar but then the screen just goes blank. Anyone seen this before?
[22:48] <dwidmann_laptop> BonesolTeraDyne: seamonkey isn't a gnome app so you can cross that one out ... GTK != Gnome
[22:49] <MilitantPotato> introubleee: try sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg     use ctrl+alt+f1 to get to a terminal, and "sudo shutdown -r now"  to restart
[22:49] <dwidmann_laptop> Unless those apps started picking up heavy gnome dependencies o.O .... I haven't paid much attention to Mozilla in a long time.
[22:50] <BonesolTeraDyne> I was listing non-KDE\QT apps, not just GNOME ones.
[22:50] <dwidmann_laptop> BonesolTeraDyne: there are plenty of good GTK apps, they don't have to conform to the GNOME interface guidelines afterall.
[22:50] <CrunchyFerrett> Are the openssl-devel libraries no longer available through Adept?
[22:51] <CrunchyFerrett> howdy dwidmann (its that annoying "crash_" guy, btw)
[22:51] <dwidmann_laptop> CrunchyFerrett: I don't think I see it either ...
[22:51] <dwidmann_laptop> !info openssl-devel
[22:51] <introubleee> MilitantPotato: ok, I'll try that. Should I just take the default options
[22:51] <introubleee> ?
[22:51] <crimsun> libssl-dev
[22:51] <BonesolTeraDyne> !libssl-dev
[22:51] <BonesolTeraDyne> !info libssl-dev
[22:52] <dwidmann_laptop> That would explain why apt-cache found nothing
[22:52] <BonesolTeraDyne> I keep forgetting to put the 'info' part
[22:52] <CrunchyFerrett> libssl then. Lets see about it!
[22:52] <BluesKaj> CrunchyFerrett, libcurl (OpenSSL) is available in adept
[22:52] <MilitantPotato> introubleee: yea, try the defaults, the settings can be fixed later, hopefully it works after that.
[22:53] <CrunchyFerrett> libcurl? Who the heck thinks up these naming conventions?
[22:54] <crimsun> it's pretty standard practice
[22:54] <MilitantPotato> in CCSM under General Options, Display settings tab, what format does the Outputs use?
[22:54] <BlakStone> Hello eFriends
[22:54] <MilitantPotato> 1680x1050 ?
[22:55] <MilitantPotato> i remember it having a +0 or two somewhere, but can't remember it exactly
[22:55] <MilitantPotato> Wrong room, sorry
[22:56] <MilitantPotato> Is it possible for konq to register side mouse buttons for forward and back?
[22:57] <uhriventis> My kde4 bar is gone how do I get it back?
[22:58] <BluesKaj> uhriventis, ask in #kubuntu-kde4
[22:58] <matt___> anyone know anything about a qt toolkit package?
[22:59] <dwidmann_laptop> uhriventis: the easiest way would be to move your ~/.kde4 folder ... of course that would lose your app settings ... then log back in
[22:59] <dwidmann_laptop> matt___: probably something like qt3-dev-tools perhaps?
[23:00] <uhriventis> How would I move it
[23:01] <dwidmann_laptop> uhriventis: the mv command works well if you're familiar with the shell, otherwise, you could do it in konqueror or dolphin if you tell it to show hidden files
[23:01] <matt___> dwidmann_laptop: checking for Qt4 version of qmake... configure: error: ophcrack requires Qt toolkit version 4.3 or later. Please disable the GUI via '--disable-gui', or see http://www.trolltech.com/ to obtain it.
[23:01] <matt___> dwidmann_laptop: any the package you suggested didn't work
[23:02] <dwidmann_laptop> matt___: libqt4-dev
[23:02] <uhriventis> Where would I move it to?
[23:03] <dwidmann_laptop> uhriventis: anywhere you want.
[23:03] <matt___> dwidmann_laptop: now that...sounds promising. Downloading now.
[23:03] <uhriventis> Where is the file located?
[23:03] <dwidmann_laptop> matt___: I was trying to guess you what you might want before, if you had jumped straight to that I would have gotten it right the first time :)
[23:04] <dwidmann_laptop> uhriventis: in you home folder
[23:04] <uhriventis> I don't see kde in there
[23:04] <dwidmann_laptop> uhriventis: it's a folder called ".kde4"
[23:04] <dwidmann_laptop> uhriventis: Like I had said, you need to enable showing of hidden files first
[23:05] <matt___> dwidmann_laptop: no problem, that was my fault, and besides, i spent thirty minutes in #ubuntu before i realized that qt was used by kde. It ALL makes sense now :)
[23:05] <uhriventis> Okay I see the file so moving it to deskttop would work?
[23:06] <dwidmann_laptop> matt___: it seriously took thirty minutes in there? and you still walked away without a response? Wow, that's pretty sad :P
[23:07] <matt___> dwidmann_laptop: yep, noone said a thing, so i googled some more, and found someone explaining qt and gtk.
[23:09] <reagleBRKLN> hi, using inspiron 530 and my CD audio access is *very* slow: 2.3X at best. It's a HL-DT-ST DVD+/-RW GSA-H73N. Any idea how to speed up for this SATA interface?
[23:10] <reagleBRKLN> using kubuntu 8.04
[23:10] <dwidmann_laptop> reagleBRKLN: do you have any sort of CD drive acoustics options available in your BIOS?
[23:10] <dwidmann_laptop> reagleBRKLN: if so, you might want to set it to Performance.
[23:11] <reagleBRKLN> not sure, will check
[23:11] <ziun> ciao
[23:11] <ziun> w kubuntu
[23:11] <ziun> :D
[23:14] <adude> i need a program to record audio
[23:15] <sequethin> audacity rocks adude
[23:15] <sequethin> for recording and editing
[23:16] <adude> i want to record sound that the computer plays
[23:16] <dwidmann_laptop> adude: krecord is extremely simple and works
[23:16] <sequethin> oh
[23:17] <dwidmann_laptop> might have meant krec, not sure :s
[23:20] <adude> it is krec not krecord.
[23:21] <dwidmann_laptop> ah, yeah.
[23:28] <Itaku> if i burn a cd in linux would it work on windows
[23:29] <isaac_> hi
[23:29] <sequethin> Itaku: it depends on what you mean by "work" but in many cases yes it will
[23:30] <Shrek> running RutilT and wondering how to get rid of the nm-applet
[23:30] <andrago> I am trying to install xine extra  plugins, but is greyed out. Not sure what repositorie should I add to get it installable. Any help?
[23:34] <dwidmann_laptop> !info libxine1-extra-plugins
[23:35] <andrago> and why it appears?
[23:35] <draik> Ever since the upgrade to 8.04, I am unable to use VirtualBox and VMware Workstation
[23:36] <dwidmann_laptop> andrago: not sure
[23:36] <dwidmann_laptop> but it apparently doesn't exist in the main reps ... which things in particular did you need?
[23:37] <DarkestHour> !smb
[23:37] <andrago> play dvd, m3 etc...
[23:37] <dwidmann_laptop> andrago: for dvd see
[23:37] <dwidmann_laptop> !css
[23:37] <dwidmann_laptop> andrago for mp3 get the libxine1-ffmpeg package
[23:38] <dwidmann_laptop> for etc you might want the libxine1-misc-plugins package
[23:38] <andrago> well, just updated it and looking around the things
[23:38] <andrago> thanks, all these are installed
[23:38] <andrago> not tried to play mp3, only wondering why it is grey
[23:39] <andrago> and, you know, it is greyed out, I can't install it, I want to install it!
[23:39] <dwidmann_laptop> andrago: do "apt-cache policy libxine1-extra-plugins"
[23:40] <andrago> not found
[23:40] <dwidmann_laptop> andrago: well that would be why it's uninstallable, why it shows up in the list is beyond me.
[23:40] <andrago> thanks, I think I will be able to play anything
[23:40] <dwidmann_laptop> andrago: how about "dpkg --list libxine1-extra-plugins
[23:41] <andrago> neither
[23:41] <draik> VMware Workstation will not start and VirtualBox keeps asking for the modules, but I have already installed them. Am I missing something?
[23:41] <andrago> thanks dwidmann_laptop
[23:42] <andrago> should be some restriction in some hide file....
[23:42] <jereme> man I just have to rant that Firefox 3b5 should _not_ be the default browser for Hardy
[23:42] <jereme> I run into bugs every stinkin day
[23:43] <jereme> its form rendering is a little busted up
[23:43] <andrago> uninstall it and install firefox-2
[23:43] <jereme> andrago: yeah, I'm going to...  The standard procedure
[23:43] <jereme> exactly
[23:43] <andrago> fine, fine
[23:43] <andrago> continue, please
[23:43] <jereme> SOP from an SOB ;)
[23:44] <andrago> :-)
[23:44] <jereme> I'm done actually
[23:44] <dwidmann_laptop> draik: this might be of interest to you : https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VMware/Server
[23:44] <jereme> I mean I could rant for hours, but Hardy is pretty awesome otherwise
[23:44] <andrago> well, I just upgraded it and moved to KDE4 and it looks really good
[23:45] <jereme> yeah I got kde4 running on a virtualbox installation and I am impressed
[23:45] <andrago> never tryied an automatic version upgrade and it was awesome
[23:45] <jereme> I'm running the kde3 version on my workstation though
[23:45] <sponix> what is this crap where apps hang, and it dims the window, is that just Ubuntu, or does kubuntu and xubuntu do that also ?
[23:45] <jereme> andrago: have you seen the new installer?
[23:45] <andrago> not yet
[23:45] <andrago> not really sure how get the new apps yet
[23:45] <dwidmann_laptop> jereme: what's new about it?
[23:45] <jereme> andrago: it's awesome... really knocks out folks main complaints about linux
[23:46] <andrago> I am doing the standar procedure fo installing a lo tof new stuff until something will be broken
[23:46] <andrago> what is the name of the package?
[23:46] <jereme> dwidmann_laptop: it's just a legitimate installer... I _thought_ it was new for hardy... when I installed Feisty I had to boot a live CD and click an icon
[23:46] <sponix> Any stability problems with kde4 ?
[23:46] <andrago> not yet
[23:47] <andrago> sponix:  runs fine, a bit different
[23:47] <jereme> andrago: I don't know... you see it when you install ubuntu from CD
[23:47] <andrago> oh, it will appear
[23:47] <dwidmann_laptop> jereme: can't do lvm/encryption/raid installs by any chance can it?
[23:48] <jereme> dwidmann_laptop: I'm not sure... my install was very basic
[23:48] <jereme> I've heard of SATA issues, but I just don't know
[23:48] <dwidmann_laptop> jereme: livecd never has before, but I would like for it to, even though I presently can't use any livecds anyway ...
[23:48] <sponix> andrago, hear it feels faster and lighter than both kde3 and gnome, you feel that is true ?
[23:48] <jereme> dwidmann_laptop: ah...  well the livecd part of the install is no longer needed
[23:49] <temoto_alt40> Hello. How do i make system run "pon corbina" from root at the very startup?
[23:49] <jereme> sponix: well it has very thin application support at this point, so it sure looks lighter
[23:49] <andrago> yes, not used it more than few ours but I agree
[23:49] <dwidmann_laptop> sponix: certainly loads slower, but when it's loaded it is fairly snappy ....probably not as snappy as kde3 or fluxbox though, at least not yet.
[23:49] <dwidmann_laptop> sponix: some of the apps like konqueror&dolphin seem much faster, gwenview too.
[23:49] <andrago> you should try it sponix
[23:49] <jereme> I personally think... KDE4 for fun... KDE3 for work
[23:50] <jereme> but when 4.1 hits...  That's INSANE
[23:51] <jereme> stupid ATI in general
[23:51] <jereme> dwidmann_laptop: dual 20" 1600x1200
[23:51] <andrago> well, the ati drivers are far better in this new release
[23:51] <dwidmann_laptop> jereme: pick up a decent NVIDIA card for $100 or something
[23:52] <andrago> in fact, they work
[23:52] <jereme> dwidmann_laptop: I'm stuck on old AGP... and AGP nvidia cards with dual-dvi are 'spensive
[23:52] <jereme> dwidmann_laptop: I just need to request a new system from the company with pci express
[23:52] <dwidmann_laptop> andrago: hit ctrl + alt + f1 then ctrl + alt + f7 and see how spiffy the drivers are then .... I hear that problem still frequents ati users
[23:53] <dwidmann_laptop> that and freezing on log out, etc
[23:53] <jereme> dwidmann_laptop: I just fixed that on my box
[23:53] <jereme> dwidmann_laptop: it was pretty easy..  I'll dig through my browser history and see if I can find the page that helped
[23:53] <andrago> yes, with the last drivers that crashed X's
[23:53] <jereme> the fix isn't even to the drivers
[23:53] <andrago> you can't use the console or init 3
[23:53] <dwidmann_laptop> jereme: feel free to dig it up for me, I'll bookmark it and pass it on as neeeded.
[23:54] <jereme> gimme a second, I gotta file a bug here
[23:54] <jereme> dwidmann_laptop: k
[23:54] <andrago> I will try it tomorrow ;-)
[23:54] <andrago> but the new drivers woorks fine with X
[23:55] <jereme> andrago: fglrx?
[23:55] <dwidmann_laptop> Wow, external hard drive performance is nice, I'm glad I bought that enclosure :)
[23:55] <jereme> andrago: or the open source ones?
[23:55] <andrago> fglrx are the closed ones?
[23:56] <BluesKaj> dwidmann_laptop, jereme , do you mean this ati shutdown hang fix; https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24/+bug/118605/comments/32
[23:56] <sponix> AWN  Anyone used it ?
[23:56] <dwidmann_laptop> BluesKaj: does that also affect the inability to switch to a VT?
[23:56] <jereme> BluesKaj: I think that was it
[23:56] <andrago> I am using the ATI drivers, not the open source
[23:57] <andrago> jereme: this one works fine
[23:57] <andrago> do you use the open source?
[23:57] <BluesKaj> dwidmann_laptop, dunno
[23:57] <jereme> andrago: I use the binary installer for fglrx from ati's web site
[23:58] <jereme> because, as best as I could tell, the restricted-modules pkg that shipped with hardy was missing the fglrx kernel driver
[23:58] <andrago> It not worked for me in the previous kubuntu release
[23:58] <dwidmann_laptop> BluesKaj: After my experience with my radeon 9700 in linux I haven't touched an ATI card since ... and years later that problem still isn't 100% fixed :( jeeze
[23:58] <jereme> I think the bug that Blues posted is the proper fix
[23:58] <BluesKaj> this fix works for the lower end fglrx desfault restricted driver suggested by kubuntu upon reboot immediately after Hardy was installed
[23:59] <jereme> it worked for me on the binary install too
[23:59] <jereme> I can't find any other fixes in my browser history
[23:59] <BluesKaj> jereme, my card is the very common X200 used in a lotta laptops and MOR HP pcs


 @mhall119 planning for the Orlando area, @itnet7
 Was that a question or a statement?
 Statement
 My bad
 I'm wondering how we want this to run, like a BBQ like last time or conference like
 we can always just meet for food or drinks somewhere
 like we did at the coffee shop in Deland
 Conference in Orlando hah
 Nice
 Yeah.
 We could, it would be the most simple way @mhall119
 @mhall119 Keith still wants his smoked meat
 didn't get enough in Charlotte?
 No he did not lol
 He was a bit speechless at first XD
 @AbMind @govatent have anytime after Oct 20 free?
 Oct 20?!
 @Ivoriesablaze your by default coming
 That's the release date, we will pick a weekend date of course
 I'm sure I can make free time after Oct 20
 Ah!
 Sounds cool
 Yeah that works. Halloween weekend maybe?
 My October is crazy. The weekend of the 20 I'm heading to Tampa to be a patient for a dental exam for a friend
 Good it'll be around Orlando area @govatent lol
 The date is not hard coded
 Its flexible
 Alrighty. I guess I'll also toss I can't go the weekend of the 29th cause I got tickets for a show in town
 That'd about the only two days I can't go in October
 @AdamOutler ^ central Florida location
 @ahoneybun if I can get the time off, lol,or if its on a weekend
 And only if there are no hot dogs involved
 XD
 @KMyers you can see Sausage Party at 11 in Sweden
 Probably won't make it :(
 @govatent, You better start coming or we will start involving a suspicious looking white van, a hood and rope in the future
 Lol
 I must listen to the gnu lord
 has anyone tried KDE Neon?
 I have not
 https://m.imgur.com/a/Y6IEt
 How am I supposex fo install this?
 not sure
 I think the slideshow will be broke as well
 I don't think there is one for KDE Neon
 I rebooted the installer is working fine now
 installation succesfull
 How to Install Microsoft PowerShell on Linux or OS X … http://www.howtogeek.com/267858/how-to-install-microsoft-powershell-on-linux-or-os-x/
 Now install powershell
 ok then.... Why have I not tried kde connect before.
 and the OnePlus X has Marshmallow finally!
[10:40] <floridagram> * ahoneybun makes a backup of the ubuntu-fl server
 It's time!!!
 Nice
 Shame I'm no longer on a pure Android device
 I will dream of Android n for years to come
 XD
 Custom ROMs will come for me
 @govatent, The S7 should get it in a few months
 not Pure
 AOSP like
 @ahoneybun, Yes, I doubt there will be an official N release from One Plus for your phone so custom Roms will be the best for you
 well yea
 even the OnePlus X got killed lol
 @SivaMachina was the Neon slideshow broken?
 Not sure if it actually used one
 the dev or user one?
 user
 mm
 I does not seem to be useing the normal Ubuntu installer either....unless Kubuntu has a different one that KDE Neon is useing
 we do
 that looks like the one we have
 the UI is different from the Qt frontend
 it's possible
 I think we might have a new one in backports
 Um ok then I would have thought that KDE Connect would be more up to date
 since I am useing Neon
 oh IDK about them
 I haven't gotten the update yet
 @Ivoriesablaze, It is a rolling update, it will hit the newest supported devices and go from there over the next few days. I would not worry. Honestly I have not seen any differences between the beta and the production yet
[20:20] <maxolasersquad> Factory images are not yet available.
[20:20] <maxolasersquad> I'm wanting to do a fresh install.
 What device are you running?
[20:44] <maxolasersquad> Nexus 6
 Got the ota for 5X today too.
 Yeyyy
 I left my Pixel at home today, cant wait to go and update that as well
 I just found a medical reason why my next smart watch needs a heart rate sensor
 Anxiety attacks
 Then my current one is out of the question.
 The fossil doesn't have hr?
 Nope
 Damn


[04:41] <cwillu> so very quiet
[08:21]  * apw struggles with his Q upgrade wh
[08:21] <apw> which has decided to loose his settings
[08:22] <apw> df
[08:27] <apw> oh goody lots of display corruption
[08:32] <smb> pefect timing
[08:32] <smb> *perfect
[08:53] <cwillu> unless it's a problem with the timings...
[13:24] <abogani> BenC: Do you know if someone offers an apt-installable version-alligned cross-compiler for PowerPC for Ubuntu Desktop (as Canonical already does it for ARM with gcc-arm-linux-gnueabihf package)?
[13:25] <BenC> abogani: I used the emdebian repo, but no on strictly Ubuntu tools
[13:30] <abogani> BenC: PowerPC could gain appeal if the Ubuntu x86 Desktop would offers that cross-compiler for Ubuntu Core and Ubuntu Server. It works in this way for ARM at least here.
[13:30] <BenC> I can certainly work on that for raring
[13:32] <abogani> BenC: Please note that the missing plaftorm in our server farms here is PowerPC ;-)
[13:33] <BenC> abogani: by server farms, do you mean the server teams testing systems, or..?
[13:35] <abogani> BenC: both testing and production systems
[13:36] <BenC> There's two Xserve's for buildd's
[13:36] <BenC> I'm working on getting dev/testing boxes for you guys though
[13:37] <abogani> cool
[16:30]  * ppisati -> gym
[16:41] <hallyn> smb: feh, build of ubuntu-r kernel gives me /build/buildd/linux-3.7.0/arch/x86/xen/enlighten.c:223:15: warning: return type defaults to 'int' [-Wreturn-type]
[16:48] <hallyn> but it seems i've introduced my own errors as well :)


[21:26] <daftykins> i have once again polished off all jaffa cake caches at my home, so i won't be besieged by invaders (:
[21:27] <zxmpi_> emergency custard creams on standby? :-P
[21:28] <daftykins> cor i haven't seen one of those for a while
[21:30] <zxmpi_> you're a jammie dodger man then?
[21:31] <daftykins> chocolate hobnobs in the past, but i've tried to curb my snacking ways of late
[22:01] <penguin42> daftykins: The M&S custard creams are particularly nice
[22:01] <zxmpi_> i prefer raspberry creams over custard creams
[22:01] <daftykins> hmm if ever i'm over that way i will have to browse!
[22:14] <zxmpi_> neck fan charged for tomorrow, now putting phone on charge. i hate the heat ':-/
[22:16] <daftykins> mmm the humidity and such has been quite nasty, though i haven't been awake of daywalker hours :)
[22:20] <davef> this saturday, I will be davef in the raiders of the lost jaffacake
[22:21] <daftykins> do we avert your eyes when you step off the plane in your crocs with socks?
[22:21] <daftykins> oops *our eyes, duh
[22:53] <davef> you may beholden your eyes to my crocs with socks
[22:53] <daftykins> hehe
[22:54] <davef> I'm wearing crocs with socks right now
[22:54]  * zxmpi_ opens cupboard and starts passing out the blowpipes... :-P


[18:52] <TheLordOfTime> is there anyone who can help translate something on a bug for me, so I can get to triaging it?  https://launchpadlibrarian.net/159875974/DpkgTerminalLog.txt is an attachment on bug 1261235 and I can't read it.
[18:53] <TheLordOfTime> or, if anyone can point me to where I need to go to get some assistance with the translating, that'd be great too


[01:20] <jrwren> lol, remember testdrive? I just found an ancient testdrive system of quantal dated oct 2012 :)
[01:25] <cmaloney> Heh
[01:26] <cmaloney> Good times
[01:26] <cmaloney> I just put in the talk submission for the Penguicon Release party
[11:46] <cmaloney> morning
[12:38] <rick_h> wheeee
[12:42] <cmaloney> Are we having fun yet?
[12:45] <rick_h> not yet...but working on it heh
[12:45] <rick_h> 15 days and counting
[12:45] <cmaloney> How's the birthday month so far? :)
[12:45] <cmaloney> Hah
[12:46] <rick_h> good, working on house stuff and such
[12:46] <rick_h> shoveling snow every other day
[12:48] <cmaloney> Yeah, no kidding
[12:48] <cmaloney> Yesterday I used the snow blower for that little bit of snow, just to save a few minutes
[12:49] <rick_h> it's been too powdery here, just makes a mess with the blower
[12:49] <cmaloney> and get it all nice and clean so it could melt away just in time for the next batch
[12:49] <cmaloney> I did it around 12:30pm so it wasn't as powdery
[12:50] <cmaloney> had some sunlight on it
[12:50] <rick_h> ah, gotcha
[12:50] <cmaloney> Yeah, in the morning it wouldn't have worked
[12:51] <cmaloney> but I was shamed by my neighbors to going out there and shoveling
[12:51] <rick_h> lol
[12:51] <rick_h> well I just hate it because when we drive on it it compacts and it's impossible to get up so if it's not going to be warm I want to try to shovel before we leave the house if possible
[12:51] <cmaloney> Yeah
[12:52] <rick_h> which I got about 80% clear before my wife left...doh!
[12:52] <cmaloney> unfortunately I took JoDee to work before I could shovel so I had a tire speedbump
[12:52] <cmaloney> tire-compacted speedbump
[12:54] <rick_h> yea
[12:57] <cmaloney> https://unikeyboard.io/product/terminus/ <- Good God, people ar re-creating the PET 2001 keyboard on purpose.
[12:57] <cmaloney> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_PET#/media/File:Commodore_2001_Series-IMG_0448b.jpg
[13:18] <Scary_Guy> I mean it's not exact but it's close
[13:19] <Scary_Guy> screw matrix layout though.  I mean I'm sure I'd get used to it eventually
[13:21] <Scary_Guy> http://www.mistelkeyboard.com/barocco-rgb-series/ I just got this and I love it
[13:21] <Scary_Guy> kinda miss the full layout though, 60% seems stunted.  I'll probably end up getting the keypad
[14:09] <cmaloney> I just find it slightly humorous that for the longest time I was really looking forward to having a full-sized keyboard on my computer
[14:09] <cmaloney> and now that we do there's folks trying to see how minimalistic they can get with the design
[14:10] <cmaloney> Seriously I don't want to think that hard to type
[14:10] <cmaloney> If I did I'd become a stenographer
[14:17] <rick_h> I do like 10less though
[14:18] <rick_h> unless you're an accountant bring that mouse space in for the 95% of the day
[14:21] <cmaloney> Yeah; I'm a little too addicted to the numeric pad
[14:21] <cmaloney> but I can see where it might be an advantage.
[14:38] <Scary_Guy> I saw an old stego unit on craigslist for $8
[14:38] <Scary_Guy> steno*
[14:40] <Scary_Guy> https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BLKPC122Front.jpg really I'd love this keyboard
[14:42] <Scary_Guy> the only reason I got the split one is because it's more ergonomic.  I have it mounted at the ends of my armrests
[14:43] <Scary_Guy> well, sort of mounted anyway.  It's not going anywhere that's the point
[14:43] <rick_h> heh
[14:44] <rick_h> yea, I keep playing around with keyboards but always come back to my kenisis as my main board
[14:47] <Scary_Guy> kenisis is legit.  are the keys mechanical though?
[14:47] <Scary_Guy> that's what I like about this one.  I mean I can tolerate a rubber dome but this does feel much nicer
[14:49] <rick_h> yea, they're cherry browns which I wish I get could something better
[14:49] <rick_h> but ergo++
[14:50] <Scary_Guy> super nice then.  I may end up elevating mine on the insides too.    I wasn't planning on having kids anyway
[14:54] <Scary_Guy> also I'm sure the five CRTs I had before didn't help either
[14:57] <Scary_Guy> I may just elevate this chair, it's kind of like having a standing desk too, though now there is no desk
[15:08] <jrwren> SWEET!!! I finally finally finally got italics in byobu.
[15:11] <cmaloney> Wait till you get tmux. :)
[15:11] <cmaloney> *mind blown*
[15:12] <jrwren> :p
[15:12] <jrwren> the whole point was that I had it working in tmux but not byobu-tmux.
[15:12] <jrwren> what can I say? i really like byobu's status line.
[15:12] <cmaloney> Seems like an awful lot of baggage for a status line
[15:12] <cmaloney> but cool nonetheless
[15:12] <jrwren> really?
[15:12] <jrwren> I never notice the baggage.
[15:13] <cmaloney> I dunno. Byobu felt really heavy to me
[15:13] <jrwren> its litterally tmux with custom config.
[15:13] <jrwren> or screen, but I use byobu-tmux
[15:13] <cmaloney> Perhaps I like default tmux better tha byobu's defaults
[15:13]  * cmaloney hasn't looked at byobu since it was a screen wrapper
[15:14] <jrwren> I'd drop byobu and do tmux if I could get the same status line. the status line is the only reason I use byobu.
[15:14] <jrwren> I even change the keybindings to be default tmux.
[15:16] <rick_h> do you use the status line? what info do you find you use regularly through the day?
[15:16] <rick_h> it always seemed like interesting in theory to know that every so often but not something I needed constant repeated hits on
[15:16] <jrwren> I use it for update notification and for bwmon. The bwmon has saved my ass numerous times.
[15:17] <jrwren> i don't need it on every host on which I run, just this particular one, which also happens to be my internet router, so quick glance at data rates is very useful
[15:23] <_stink_> i still just use gnu screen :P
[15:24] <cmaloney> _stink_: Honestly you should give tmux a try
[15:24] <jrwren> +1 tmux is much nicer when connecting with multiple terms to the same session
[15:24] <cmaloney> I used to be a screen die-hard and I completely moved to tmux because it has a lot of nice things that never made it into screen
[15:25] <cmaloney> session switching is awesome
[15:25] <cmaloney> and I'm practically in a tiling window manager with the window splits
[15:25] <jrwren> I still never window split: )
[16:44] <waldo323> can you use tmux to connect to a serial console?
[16:45] <jrwren> no, you'd use something else for that.
[16:46] <waldo323> one of my uses of screen is "screen /dev/ttyACM0 115200"
[16:46] <waldo323> for connecting to circuit python boards
[16:46] <jrwren> what does that do?
[16:46] <waldo323> give access to the repl on the board
[16:47] <waldo323> *gives
[16:47] <jrwren> cool. I'd use minicom for that.
[16:47] <jrwren> screen sounds like its a bit lighter than minicom for that. I dig it.
[16:48] <waldo323> it is the command recommended by adafruit's guides,  https://learn.adafruit.com/welcome-to-circuitpython/what-is-circuitpython
[16:49] <waldo323> woa our mug video comes up first in google search when searching for welcome to circuit python
[16:49] <waldo323> https://youtu.be/307Ia_mv8AA
[16:50] <jrwren> so, its screen as a terminal emulator? there aren't multiple windows, right?
[16:51] <waldo323> That was my assumption.  you can still create other windows like normal but only one connects to the board
[16:53] <jrwren> huh, i was searching to see if tmux can do it, and I still dont' know, but apparently there is also `tio` tio.github.io
[16:55] <waldo323> nic
[16:55] <waldo323> e
[16:56] <waldo323> it looks like as of 2015 the author of tmux thought the ability was bloat and not the unix way so wasn't likely going to add it
[16:57] <waldo323> but that also looks like hearsay
[16:57] <jrwren> figures.
[17:01] <cmaloney> There's also cu
[17:04] <jrwren> cool. I didn't know that one either.
[17:05] <cmaloney> me either


[04:05] <bla2000> there is an error in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats
[04:05] <bla2000> It should be sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras
[04:05] <bla2000> in the 7.10 instructions
[04:05] <bla2000> currently it says sudo apt-get ubuntu-restricted-extras
[04:05] <jjesse> bla2000: please report a bug or submit a patch fixing it :)
[04:06] <bla2000> It's just the wiki that needs updatings
[04:06] <jjesse> do you have edit rights on the wiki?
[04:06] <bla2000> The instructions overlook "install"
[04:06] <bla2000> No.
[04:06] <bla2000> Newbs may get confused.
[04:07] <jjesse> i understand, heading to bed can you post to ubuntu-doc mailing list?
[04:07] <bla2000> I'll try
[04:17] <bla2000> I've just sent an email to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:17] <bla2000> Thanks.
[08:20] <posingaspopular> that one seems to be fixed already
[22:08] <coastGNU> Is there a documentation for oem-config? Didn't find it on launchpad and wiki.ubuntu.com...


[17:29] <arraybolt3[m]> Blah, QT transition in Debian just broke my ability to work on LXQt. Ah, well, guess that gives me time to attack Pipewire at some point today hopefully.
[18:40] <arraybolt3[m]> Alright, so, I'm modifying the seed to try to plug in Pipewire, and it's doing... nothing. Like, absolutely nothing.  I run Germinate against the unmodified seed, get one result, remove Pulseaudio and plug in Pipewire, run Germinate again, and get identical output.
[18:40] <arraybolt3[m]> What. In. The world.
[19:08] <arraybolt3[m]> This is really confusing - some stuff about Pipewire appears hardcoded into the ubuntu.lunar seed and is... getting picked up by Lubuntu, possibly? That doesn't make sense though, pipewire isn't installed on my system.
[19:08]  * arraybolt3[m] does a test with a new ISO
[19:27] <arraybolt3[m]> Yeah, the new Lunar ISO has nothing Pipewire in it that I can tell. I bet this is the source of the Germinate bug though. I'm going to see if a Xubuntu-like workaround will work.
[22:07] <arraybolt3[m]> Oh hey it worked! Even though Germinate isn't outputting anything different, the metapackage updated right.
[22:08] <arraybolt3[m]> Simon Quigley: Is this sufficient? I *think* if I push this and update the meta, that it will roll out Pipewire onto Lunar, which I believe is what we're going for. Will that work, and may I proceed?
[23:25] <arraybolt3[m]> @kc2bez: The exact packages you listed that needed to be removed and added in the list.
[23:26] <arraybolt3[m]> Namely, "pulseaudio" and "pulseaudio-module-bluetooth" are being removed, while "pipewire", "pipewire-pulse", "(wireplumber)', "libspa-0.2-bluetooth", and "gstreamer1.0-pipewire" are being added.
[23:26] <arraybolt3[m]> https://notes.lubuntu.me/huOk59_iRSaAMZDl_my8bw?edit
[23:28] <arraybolt3[m]> I've done very similar things before and I'm pretty sure it will work, but you're right, I do need to test that first. Thanks for reminding me!
[23:50] <arraybolt3[m]> Well turns out Falkon crashes like crazy with YouTube, but audio is working!
[23:51] <arraybolt3[m]> Oh wait, now Firefox is crashign with it too...
[23:51] <arraybolt3[m]> Maybe it was just random.
[23:52] <arraybolt3[m]> I didn't check it. I can do that easily enough though.
[23:53] <arraybolt3[m]> Hmm, Firefox is crashing like crazy too. That's worrying.
[23:54] <arraybolt3[m]> Never had this happen before. Maybe the GStreamer plugin is messing it up somehow?
[23:56] <arraybolt3[m]> Currently investigating.
[23:57] <arraybolt3[m]> (I have to reinstall my VM since I just chucked the original one using my VM tester, but I installed the VM to a SHM disk image so it should be fast to install.)
[23:58] <arraybolt3[m]> This is in a pure QEMU Lunar VM, and it is very noticable - tabs just crash right and left. Hopefully it was just random or the result of me doing something wrong.
[23:58] <arraybolt3[m]> I wonder if maybe it's because Pipewire is also messing with the video side of things?
[23:59] <arraybolt3[m]> Also, here's something weird - when I boot the freshly installed VM, I get messages "error: no server specified.      error: no suitable video mode found." or something like that. Looks like it comes from either GRUB or SeaBIOS.
[23:59] <arraybolt3[m]> Might be something new weird with Lunar that we need to look out for.