[12:31] <mdke> hi hypatia
[12:31] <hypatia> hi
[12:32] <hypatia> So that I know you from the mailing list...
[12:32] <mdke> <-- matt
[12:32] <hypatia> yeah, your mask is helpful there :)
[12:32] <hypatia> as is mine
[12:32] <mdke> yeep
[12:33] <mdke> Burgundavia = corey, froud = sean
[12:33] <mdke> boglot = logbot
[12:33] <mdke> i am happy to keep meeting short and regular
[12:34] <mdke> *meetings
[12:34] <Burgundavia> hello
[12:34] <hypatia> sure.
[12:34] <hypatia> To be fair, I haven't had a close look at the critique.
[12:34] <hypatia> For all I know it could be addresses fairly quickly.
[12:34] <hypatia> What do you think?
[12:34] <Burgundavia> not really
[12:35] <mdke> no
[12:35] <Burgundavia> I chatted with him on irc
[12:35] <hypatia> hi Burgundavia
[12:35] <Burgundavia> we discussed bluesky and breezy stuff
[12:35] <mdke> its not just him, its just that we need to sort out where we are going with the next release
[12:35] <Burgundavia> we have some ideas
[12:35] <Burgundavia> to bad most of us will miss UDU
[12:36] <hypatia> Well, I will be there, but only on the Monday.
[12:36] <hypatia> I don't want to take a week's vacation for it.
[12:36] <Burgundavia> well, the major thing that I have not seen mentioned outside of Sean, myself and Mark is the docbook/wiki/svn portal
[12:37] <hypatia> That sounds like a good idea to me.
[12:37] <mdke> my view is simply that it is good if someone can manage it
[12:37] <hypatia> But it also sounds like it would need a lot of energy to follow up, let alone to develop it.
[12:37] <Burgundavia> we need to flesh out a concrete set of goals
[12:37] <mdke> but if its unrealistic, i think we should not dream any further about it
[12:37] <Burgundavia> as mark mentioned that would we willing to throw some devs at it
[12:38] <Burgundavia> s/we/he
[12:38] <mdke> he mentioned it
[12:38] <hypatia> My partner works for Canonical.
[12:38] <mdke> but hasn't done it
[12:38] <hypatia> My impression is that their development time is kind of spoken for.
[12:38] <mdke> they are working hard on launchpad and stuff
[12:38] <hypatia> I assume there could well be a bounty kind of thing.
[12:39] <hypatia> And then a third party developer could work on it.
[12:39] <mdke> that would be cool
[12:39] <Burgundavia> no idea what his plans were
[12:39] <mdke> anyway we can discuss it, but I think that we shouldn't count on it happening soon
[12:39] <hypatia> Burgundavia: that is probably a good candidate for the pre-UDU meeting.
[12:40] <Burgundavia> hmm
[12:40] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:40] <hypatia> Burgundavia: so that someone at UDU can take it to Mark or Jane Silber or Jeff Waugh or whoever and get a firm yes or no.
[12:40] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[12:40] <hypatia> Burgundavia: but I think someone needs to spec it out really well.
[12:40] <hypatia> so that development time can be estimated.
[12:40] <mdke> mdz said he would fight our corner on the other thing, so if we give him some details on this too, perhaps he can present it
[12:41] <Burgundavia> I mentioned the basics on the list
[12:41] <mdke> or someone else
[12:41] <hypatia> Burgundavia: stick it on a wiki page for easy reference.
[12:41] <mdke> add to meeting agenda?
[12:41] <Burgundavia> ok, I will dig it up
[12:42] <hypatia> I'll ask Jeff Waugh to see if he knows what it would take to get a commitment one way or the other from Canonical on the development of an integrated tool.
[12:42] <hypatia> Burgundavia: yeah, stick it on a wiki page and also add it to the agenda.
[12:42] <mdke> perhaps the structure of docs/userbase issue can be postponed until after UDU
[12:42] <hypatia> mdke: Maybe it could be discussed on the mailing list for now.
[12:42] <mdke> ++
[12:43] <hypatia> mdke: If people have a couple of weeks to chew it over, the discussion at the meeting can probably move faster.
[12:43] <mdke> fine yeah
[12:44] <mdke> hey your website is awesome
[12:45] <hypatia> puzzling.org ?
[12:45] <Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocTeamWebPortal
[12:46] <mdke> hypatia, yes
[12:46] <mdke> i love the names page
[12:46] <Burgundavia> dine
[12:46] <Burgundavia> done even
[12:48] <hypatia> mdke: It's a fun meme :)
[12:49] <Burgundavia> still looking for a good domainname for myself
[12:49] <Burgundavia> I have settled on ontapSOMETHING
[12:49] <Burgundavia> but I need a good word for SOMETHING
[12:50] <hypatia> It took me about a year to find one I liked.
[12:50] <Burgundavia> I tried ontapdesktop
[12:50] <Burgundavia> but that doesn't read right
[02:18] <Burgundavia> mdke, ping
[03:29] <hypatia> Burgundavia: so, jdub<EMAIL_ADDRESS>asks for this re the wiki/docbook thing:
[03:30] <hypatia> email him and Cc docteam, asking for it to be raised at UDU.
[03:30] <hypatia> Make sure that you include links to the archive for all previous discussion, including Mark's comments.
[03:31] <hypatia> Because he has no idea about it, and will need some background if he's to push it up the chain.
[05:36] <jsgotangco> tadaaaa
[05:42] <jsgotangco> hi trickie
[05:45] <trickie> jsgotangco, hey there!
[05:47] <jsgotangco> whats up?
[05:48] <trickie> jsgotangco, not much... at work... just though i'd pop in
[05:49] <trickie> jsgotangco, i haven't had much time lately to spend on #ubuntu-doc
[05:49] <jsgotangco> its pretty quiet here at this time..
[05:49] <jsgotangco> probably in an hour or 2 froud will be awake
[05:49] <trickie> jsgotangco, yeah i seem to miss all the cool discussions
[06:17] <jsgotangco> hmmm the guys at devel are doing sparc but its 100% unofficial
[06:20] <jsgotangco> lunch bbl
[06:35] <Burgundavia> salut toutlemonde
[06:36] <jsgotangco> salut
[07:27] <jsgotangco> salut
[07:33] <froud> African Greetings
[07:34] <Burgundavia> salut
[07:56] <jsgotangco> hi
[07:56] <froud> morn
[07:58] <trickie> froud, i just wanted to thanks for all the work you did on the branch merge
[07:59] <trickie> froud, i have been quickly glancing at the commit logs and wathcing what you are doing
[07:59] <froud> no problem
[07:59] <trickie> froud, it was a good learning exp, never done a lot of branching/merging in SVN
[07:59] <froud> how r u
[07:59] <trickie> froud, yeah not bad... been pretty flat out lately...
[08:00] <froud> me too customers come last minute and want it now
[08:00] <trickie> froud, not much time to spend on the things i actually WANT to spend my time on :)
[08:00] <trickie> froud, always the way ;)
[08:00] <froud> trickie: hows you knowledge of entities in the internal subset
[08:01] <trickie> froud, internal subset?
[08:01] <froud> yeah the [ ]  in the DocType Decl
[08:01] <froud> in libs/global.ent we have language entities
[08:01] <trickie> froud, ah... i sorta know how to do them... not alot though...
[08:01] <froud> Ok
[08:02] <froud> seems like there is no way I can put paramatized internal entities into the internal subset
[08:03] <trickie> froud, as in &name; = something
[08:05] <froud> %languages;
[08:06] <froud> seems I must do it in the dtd which means we end up with our own customlayer of the DTD
[08:09] <froud> Ah hA I GOT IT, I GOT IT!
[08:09] <froud> !!!!!!!!
[08:09] <froud> Yeah
[08:09] <froud> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
[08:09] <froud> <!DOCTYPE article PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN"
[08:09] <froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
[08:09] <froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../../../libs/global.ent">
[08:09] <froud> %globalent;
[08:09] <froud> <!ENTITY % cdo-C SYSTEM "../../../libs/cdo-C.ent">
[08:09] <froud> %cdo-C;
[08:09] <froud> <!ENTITY % gnome SYSTEM "../../libs/gnome.ent">
[08:10] <froud> %gnome;
[08:10] <froud> <!ENTITY % gnome-menus-C SYSTEM "../../libs/gnome-menus-C.ent">
[08:10] <froud> %gnome-menus-C;
[08:10] <froud> <!ENTITY % language "&EnglishAmerican;">
[08:10] <froud> ] >
[08:10] <froud>

[08:10] <froud> where &language now equals <!ENTITY EnglishAmerican 'en'>
[08:10] <froud> damn I am good :-)
[08:10] <froud> Oh wicked
[08:10] <froud> jeffsch: you there
[08:11] <froud> mdke: you there
[08:11] <jeffsch> me here
[08:11] <froud> found the solution
[08:11] <froud> the languages are defined in libs/global.ent
[08:11] <froud> as entities
[08:11] <froud> <!ENTITY Bhutani 'dz' >
[08:11] <froud> <!ENTITY Greek 'el' >
[08:11] <froud> <!ENTITY EnglishAmerican 'en'>
[08:11] <froud> <!ENTITY Esperanto 'eo' >
[08:11] <froud> <!ENTITY Spanish 'es' >
[08:12] <froud> by adding <!ENTITY % language "&EnglishAmerican;"> to the internal subset
[08:12] <froud> we can expand by internal parameter using %language;
[08:13] <froud> we only need to change one value in the i18n docs
[08:13] <froud> that in the internal subset
[08:13] <froud> its is not perfect but it reduces the number of changes we will need to make in i18n docs
[08:14] <froud> why did I not think of this before
[08:14] <jeffsch> so C doc will use &language; entity, and that will not change in xx doc?
[08:14] <jeffsch> only need to change internal subset?
[08:14] <froud> yep
[08:15] <froud> so fileref="../path/to/images/%languages;/foo.png
[08:15] <froud> "
[08:15] <froud> Oh no
[08:16] <froud> but en is dir C
[08:16] <froud> Oh but as you said we keep path path C in en docs
[08:16] <jsgotangco> hmm
[08:16] <trickie> isn't the default language often sepcified as C
[08:16] <jsgotangco> thats what i always thought
[08:16] <froud> the parameterized entity only applies to i18n docs
[08:17] <froud> trickie: yes, but we dont have a problem with C docs cause we generate i18n docs from them
[08:17] <froud> our problem was the i18n docs
[08:18] <trickie> froud, ok... i am not sure what you mean... i will butt out! :)
[08:18] <jsgotangco> is it the reason why we made i18n specific folders
[08:19] <froud> trickie: the problem was that the fileref@ in imagedata elements changes when you have i18n screenshots
[08:19] <trickie> froud, ah ok, i see
[08:19] <froud> the over head in managing the image refs for language change across all docs was going to be high
[08:19] <trickie> froud, which was something we didn't want to tackle till after Hoary...
[08:20] <trickie> froud, yep... cool... good solution
[08:20] <froud> yes, it is on my todo list
[08:20] <froud> Hmmm but is it....
[08:21] <froud> Nearly there
[08:21] <jsgotangco> ill go back to reading docbook because at the moment this is like esperanto to me
[08:21] <froud> the problem is that if we do path/to/C/foo.png in the English doc it is automatically propogated to i18n docs
[08:22] <froud> we need to have the %language; in the engish documents fileref
[08:22] <froud> this means we wil get /en/ instead of /C/
[08:23] <trickie> froud, most app i have across use C instead of en
[08:23] <froud> Oh but that's OK I can do it recursiely via nesting
[08:23] <froud> yes, stupid thing
[08:23] <trickie> froud, <!ENTITY EnglishAmerican 'C' >
[08:24] <froud> but then <book lang="C"> is not good
[08:24] <trickie> simlink?
[08:24] <froud> unless for english docs we hard code the lang@
[08:25] <froud> trickie symlinks not supported in svn 1.0
[08:25] <froud> need svn 1.1
[08:25] <trickie> froud, ah yes... i remember that discussion
[08:25] <trickie> :)
[08:25] <froud> and I am not sure we want to hard wire it to the file system
[08:26] <jeffsch> would making the entire path an entity work?
[08:26] <froud> I wonder what will happen if I use C in the lang@ will the stylesheets splinter
[08:28] <froud> It could by paths change and we would have to manage more entities, no?
[08:29] <froud> lemme test with lang="C" and see if the transform breaks
[08:29] <froud> no it works
[08:30] <trickie> It is not the best form, but it is common (lang=C"
[08:30] <trickie> )
[08:30] <froud>
[08:30] <froud> <!ENTITY EnglishAmerican 'C'>
[08:30] <froud> so if
[08:31] <froud> Ok I think the xsl:template match=@lang=en is not defined or is the default so it does not look for it
[08:31] <froud> and since it finds no match for C it just loops over it
[08:32] <froud> cool, it's a hack, but hey iy works
[08:32] <jsgotangco> i get it now
[08:32] <trickie> excellent!
[08:33] <trickie> works is good :)
[08:33] <froud> committed
[08:34] <froud> so by adding <!ENTITY % language "&entityname;"> to the internal subset
[08:35] <froud> we can use lang="%language;" and for images we can use fileref="..path/to/%language;/foo.png"
[08:36] <froud> So when we transform to HTML docbook will autmatically pickup languages and use translated gen texts for things like captions and labels
[08:36] <froud> So we will have 100% translated documents
[08:37] <froud> and the flexability for management of images
[08:37] <trickie> wicked!
[08:37] <froud> all we must do when we create i18n XML is change the value of lang entity
[08:37] <jsgotangco> im not familiar on the technicalities but that is very good less work and more automation
[08:38] <jsgotangco> you just changed global.ent?
[08:38] <froud> jsgotangco: yes, and since I am very lazy I will script the part about changing the value language in i18n.sh :-)
[08:38] <froud> that way we need do nothing
[08:39] <froud> well except we need to run the script
[08:39] <froud> but we do that anyway to make the i18n XML file
[08:39] <froud> :-)
[08:40] <jsgotangco> you said before this would be easier when doing kubuntu docs because we dont have to rely on yelp and khtml is being used
[08:40] <jsgotangco> but i guess it is needed if we need uniform docs between ubuntu and kubuntu and other derivatives in the future
[08:41] <froud> jsgotangco: yes, and I have just commited a new gubuntu about doc with an example of usage
[08:41] <froud> jsgotangco: yes but we have the same problem with the i18n management
[08:41] <jsgotangco> ahh there
[08:42] <froud> so anyone working on changing fileref values, please see the gubuntu about doc for example of sample usage
[08:42] <froud> well time for school run. then must work, back to deadlines
[08:43] <trickie> later
[08:43] <trickie> yes i must be off also... see ya guys!
[08:43] <jsgotangco> there's a new entity
[08:43] <jsgotangco> oh ok maybe later then
[08:43] <froud> c ya
[08:44] <froud> jsgotangco: if you want a nice job you can add the lang attribute to the root element of each document
[08:44] <jsgotangco> all of them need that?
[08:44] <froud> and add the language entity to the internal subset of each book. It's a copy paste job
[08:44] <froud> wel yes
[08:45] <froud> but for example if you are doing a german book
[08:45] <froud> then you would do
[08:45] <jsgotangco> <!ENTITY % language "&EnglishAmerican;">
[08:45] <froud> <!ENTITY % language "&German;">
[08:46] <froud> jsgotangco: here is an example of German
[08:46] <froud> <!DOCTYPE article PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN"
[08:46] <froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
[08:46] <froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../../../libs/global.ent">
[08:46] <froud> %globalent;
[08:47] <froud> <!ENTITY % cdo-C SYSTEM "../../../libs/cdo-C.ent">
[08:47] <froud> %cdo-C;
[08:47] <froud> <!ENTITY % gnome SYSTEM "../../libs/gnome.ent">
[08:47] <froud> %gnome;
[08:47] <froud> <!ENTITY % gnome-menus-C SYSTEM "../../libs/gnome-menus-C.ent">
[08:47] <froud> %gnome-menus-C;
[08:47] <froud> <!ENTITY % language "&German;">
[08:47] <froud> ] >
[08:47] <jsgotangco> yes
[08:47] <froud>

[08:47] <froud>     <title>
[08:47] <jsgotangco> ohh
[08:47] <froud>         <inlinemediaobject>
[08:47] <froud>             <imageobject>
[08:47] <froud>                 <imagedata fileref="../../images/%language;/IconUbuntu.png" format="PNG"/>
[08:47] <froud>             </imageobject>
[08:47] <froud>         </inlinemediaobject>
[08:47] <froud>     </title>
[08:47] <froud> altough in reality the image for ubuntu in any lang is the same :-)
[08:47] <jsgotangco> ohhh
[08:48] <jsgotangco> i see 2 changes
[08:48] <jsgotangco> in the fileref and the language entity
[08:48] <jsgotangco> did i get that right
[08:48] <froud> Ok do svn up so you can now see the third change
[08:48] <froud> yes
[08:49] <froud> school run brb
[08:49] <jsgotangco> ok got this
[09:13] <froud> jsgotangco: back, so you understand it. Would you mind implimenting it for us. I will be in meetings for a large part of the day.
[09:19] <jsgotangco> i just finished it
[09:19] <jsgotangco> for about ubuntu
[09:20] <jsgotangco> froud, its done for about ubuntu
[09:21] <jsgotangco> committed
[09:29] <jsgotangco> doing quick-guides now
[09:49] <jsgotangco> adminguide, quickguide, releasenotes (en and i18n), userguide committed
[10:04] <jsgotangco> froud, please check when you are free
[10:04] <jsgotangco> froud, i took the liberty of editing everything in gubuntu
[10:42] <Kinnison> Morning
[10:44] <jsgotangco> hi!
[11:21] <jsgotangco> grr whats wrong with gmail
[11:28] <mdke> morning
[11:28] <jsgotangco> mdke, hi
[11:29] <mdke> jsgotangco, hi
[11:29] <mdke> what is all this about "gubuntu"

[11:29] <jsgotangco> its just a docteam term
[11:29] <jsgotangco> come one
[11:29] <jsgotangco> -e
[11:29] <mdke> i find it confusing
[11:30] <mdke> at least until it is adopted by Ubuntu
[11:30] <jsgotangco> thats strange gmail gives me 404
[11:31] <mdke> works here
[11:31] <jsgotangco> ill use konqueror
[11:33] <jsgotangco> Gmail is temporarily unavailable. Cross your fingers and try again in a few minutes. We're sorry for the inconvenience.
[11:33] <jsgotangco> doh
[11:51] <mdke> jsgotangco, what did you edit?
[11:53] <mdke> oh cool
[11:53] <mdke> nice one froud_
[12:00] <jsgotangco> heh
[12:00] <jsgotangco> im not so sure about this but i guess its the correct way
[12:00] <jsgotangco> hi mpt
[12:01] <mpt> Greetings jsgotangco
[12:02] <jsgotangco> arrgghh why does konqueror always crash lately
[12:09] <mdke> hi mpt
[12:10] <mpt> hello
[12:10] <mdke> please to meet you, i'm matt
[12:16] <mpt> Matts are good
[12:17] <mdke> yeep
[12:19] <jsgotangco> bah

[12:20] <mdke> omg
[12:20] <mdke> some crazy guy just wrote this
[12:20] <jsgotangco> wut?
[12:20] <mdke> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StopGnomeFromRestarting
[12:20] <jsgotangco> doh
[12:21] <jsgotangco> we hateses our wiki more than ever
[12:21] <jsgotangco> oohh headers now have drop shadow
[12:21] <mdke> jsgotangco, i don't have my ubuntu machine on me, what runlevel is gdm in, rc2 or rcS?
[12:21] <mdke> can you check for me?
[12:22] <mdke> also gimme the filename if poss
[12:22] <jsgotangco> how do i do that?
[12:23] <mdke> ls /etc/rc2.d
[12:23] <mdke> ls /etc/rcS.d
[12:23] <mdke> or find /etc/rc* -name "*gdm*"
[12:24] <jsgotangco> /etc/rc0.d/K01gdm
[12:24] <jsgotangco> /etc/rc1.d/K01gdm
[12:24] <jsgotangco> /etc/rc2.d/S13gdm
[12:24] <jsgotangco> /etc/rc3.d/S13gdm
[12:24] <jsgotangco> /etc/rc4.d/S13gdm
[12:24] <jsgotangco> /etc/rc5.d/S13gdm
[12:24] <jsgotangco> /etc/rc6.d/K01gdm
[12:25] <mdke> thanks
[12:27] <mpt> jsgotangco: Really "now have drop shadow", or just "I just started using Konqueror"? :-)
[12:29] <mdke> goddam
[12:29] <mdke> now look at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StopGnomeFromRestarting
[12:30] <mdke> why oh why doesn't the text in the box just drop to the next line instead of endlessly extending out left
[12:40] <jsgotangco> that's konqueror?
[12:42] <jsgotangco> oh my
[12:46] <jsgotangco> ok im going to eat first
[12:46] <jsgotangco> dinner time
[12:46] <jsgotangco> brb
[02:29] <jjesse> morning
[02:29] <jjesse> or whatever time of day it is around you
[04:57] <jsgotangco> hello world
[05:54] <jsgotangco> waa i said a mouthful
[07:02] <abelli> everybody ciao
[07:02] <jsgotangco> ciao? but you just arrived
[07:03] <abelli> justo (giusto)
[07:03] <abelli> correct, ciao is when you meet and when you leave someone
[07:03] <jsgotangco> oohh
[07:03] <abelli> dualism (like with Hegel)
[07:04] <jsgotangco> i see
[07:06] <jsgotangco> ok i gotta sleep
[07:06] <jsgotangco> nite nite
[07:06] <jsgotangco> ciao!
[07:06] <abelli> buona notte
[07:06] <jsgotangco> is that italian
[07:07] <abelli> si
[07:07] <abelli> bonne nuit
[07:07] <jsgotangco> goodie..ill learn that one day
[07:07] <jsgotangco> nite
[07:59] <mdke> yo
[08:00] <mdke> hi froud
[08:00] <froud> hi
[08:00] <abelli> froud: ciao
[08:00] <froud> sawubona abelli
[08:01] <mdke> whoa that is a seriously long email
[08:01] <froud> yeah enjoy
[08:02] <abelli> froud: tanta gnocca to you too
[08:02] <mdke> *grins*
[08:02] <mdke> hi abelli
[08:03] <mdke> froud, thats nice work :)
[08:04] <froud> thanks hope it clears it up. I know we discussed it on the channel but that is only a handful of people on the list
[08:04] <mdke> yeah
[08:05] <mdke> wiki page?
[08:05] <mdke> that is a very comprehensive email
[08:05] <froud> wiki, dunno
[08:05] <froud> maybe
[08:05] <froud> you thik
[08:06] <froud> think
[08:06] <mdke> its not urgent, but might be useful for translators at a later stage
[08:06] <froud> Perhaps forward it to translators lists
[08:06] <froud> I am not subscribed
[08:07] <mdke> well it essentially only affects the english documents because the translation will be done by pot files i guess
[08:07] <mdke> so i think you sent it to the right list
[08:08] <mdke> we will need to dig it out when converting into pot files
[08:08] <mdke> am i right that jsgotango has already converted the main documents in accordance with your new language entity?
[08:09] <froud> form the commits I see this is so :-)
[08:09] <mdke> awesome
[08:10] <froud> Having done this I realize one mor ething
[08:10] <froud> I need to do the same thing for menus
[08:10] <mdke> hmm
[08:11] <mdke> yeah i guess
[08:11] <froud> Busy now with a plan for a "Content Specification Phase"
[08:12] <froud> this is my thinking, tell me what you think
[08:12] <froud> Create wiki pages for each book
[08:13] <froud> Determine the goals and objectives via way of encouraging users to input what they think the book should be
[08:13] <froud> Perform a task analysis based on this
[08:13] <froud> Define a Product Description
[08:13] <mdke> yeah i would appreciate that
[08:14] <froud> with an audience profile
[08:14] <mdke> i find the mailing list discussion a little heavy ;)
[08:14] <mdke> what about meetings, you think they would be useful for that stage?
[08:14] <froud> Organize the publication in outline and annotate
[08:14] <froud> start work
[08:14] <mdke> sounds good
[08:15] <froud> meetings are wasting time IMHO
[08:15] <froud> I like to do
[08:15] <froud> I think that by providing an infrustructure to get user input now we can get things done
[08:16] <froud> we dont have any analysis to go on and we are pissing against the wind
[08:16] <mdke> yes i suppose a wiki page might attract more input than a meeting
[08:17] <froud> The wiki is a good vehicle to collect the thoughts of users via way of thier commnets
[08:17] <abelli> mdke: im happy you think so :)
[08:17] <abelli> froud: what are you going to do? books?
[08:18] <froud> abelli: until such time I have a help engine that allows be to do otherwise, yes
[08:18] <mdke> froud, we have to make sure users see the page tho
[08:18] <froud> The channels, the user lists
[08:18] <abelli> froud: what kind of books .
[08:18] <abelli> ?
[08:18] <mdke> froud, yes lists are good, also linking on frontpage
[08:18] <froud> abelli: that the users will tell us
[08:18] <froud> yes
[08:18] <abelli> froud: ... so why not a simple poll?
[08:19] <mdke> we will certainly need a Userguide
[08:19] <abelli> on ubuntulinux.org page?
[08:19] <froud> I am typing an email with a proposal to th elist I will send it to Mark and Company at Canonical
[08:19] <abelli> mdke: there are thousands of user guide (wheels) out there ...
[08:19] <froud> abelli: that is what we are proposing
[08:20] <abelli> froud: learnlinux ... huh right ... what about the bugzilla advert thing?
[08:21] <froud> abelli: the technicallity of how we execute it is not so important. What is important that we gather the right information by asking the right questions
[08:21] <froud> abelli: yeah if the systeadmin woul dget back from leave
[08:21] <mdke> bugzilla advert?
[08:21] <froud> mdke: a private joke
[08:22] <mdke> ah
[08:22] <mdke> systemadmin?
[08:22] <froud> th elearnLinux bigzilla keeps bugging us
[08:22] <mdke> ah ok
[08:22] <froud> and the sysadmin either is to busy or is not there or you know the story
[08:23] <froud> mdke: Ok I am going for a 4 phase plan then
[08:23] <froud> 1. Create goals and objectives for the publication
[08:23] <froud> 2. Analyze the Product, User Environment
[08:23] <froud> 3. Analyze the tasks the user wants to perform
[08:24] <froud> 4. Organize the documents and prepare the rational
[08:24] <froud> seem ok
[08:24] <froud> ?
[08:25] <mdke> yeah
[08:25] <froud> Ok cool
[08:25] <abelli> froud: well i think that right questions should be asked the right way.
[08:25] <abelli> so it might be important considering where and when you ask them (the story of my life).
[08:25] <froud> abelli: when we get to developing them you can give input
[08:25] <abelli> i dont think that the normal user can tell you what to do.
[08:26] <froud> first lets create the action stages and then do one by one, each has its challenges
[08:26] <froud> baby steps
[08:26] <froud> but i agree that the questions must be put correctly
[08:27] <abelli> froud: make me dream.
[08:28] <froud> of what naked girls, you're not old enough :-)
[08:28] <froud> sex maniac
[08:28] <froud> and italian to boot
[08:28] <froud> sex maniac on steriods
[08:29] <abelli> froud: ive been in france last week (my life-love's place)
[08:29] <abelli> im a better boy now.
[08:29] <froud> Oh boy dont get me started on french girls, give me italian girls anyday
[08:30] <abelli> froud: a poll on the telly they are the hottest in europe .. i mean italian ones.
[08:30] <froud> you been to CZ
[08:30] <froud> drop dead gorgious
[08:30] <abelli> froud: please ...
[08:30] <abelli> avoid me this kind of ...
[08:31] <froud> I am happy with my Romain/Hunagrian/Israeli model tough
[08:33] <mdke> italians are the best
[08:33] <mdke> but the best looking men are the english
[08:33] <froud> nice until 30
[08:34] <froud> same for English men
[08:34] <mdke> lol
[08:34] <abelli> mdke: ok . now you can freely shut up.
[08:34] <mdke> we come into our own at 30
[08:34] <froud> yeah beer belly and red face with white hair
[08:34] <froud> :-)
[08:35] <froud> guess it matches the flag
[08:35] <abelli> froud: beer ... you're so old-fashioned .... bacardi breezer duuuude.
[08:35] <abelli> Cturtle_: buona sera
[08:35] <froud> red wine
[08:35] <abelli> naaaa ...
[08:35] <froud> good with pizza
[08:36] <abelli> huh btw, which one is better italian or french (cultural poll)?
[08:36] <froud> better with blue chese
[08:36] <abelli> froud: ok you're out.
[08:36] <abelli> thank you for being here ... you can take your u're fluo cheese.
[08:37] <froud> lived in England for 4 years, best thing about it was Irish, the Guiness
[08:37] <mdke> whereabouts?
[08:37] <froud> London, West Hampstead
[08:37] <abelli> mdke: brixton
[08:38] <mdke> nice
[08:38] <abelli> froud: noblesse d'oblige
[08:38] <froud> mdke: yep Kilburn High Road just down the hill :-)
[08:38] <abelli> froud: school disco?
[08:38] <froud> going to pub was easy
[08:39] <froud> getting back home was not so easy
[08:39] <froud> and it was uphill
[08:39] <froud> but a cool dip in the nood pools was always guaranteed to sober you up and cool you down
[08:39] <froud> nude
[08:41] <froud> which reminds me I must go renew my passport
[08:41] <froud> everytime I go to Pretoria I forget to go to the consul
[08:41] <abelli> pretoria?
[08:41] <abelli> did italian go in SA?
[08:42] <abelli> s
[08:42] <froud> http://www.pta.co.za/
[08:43] <mdke> froud, do you have that link on you from that guy who wrote the guide on installing without media?
[08:43] <froud> yes, somewhere
[08:43] <abelli> i was talking about the name
[08:44] <froud> hey dudes you are a bad influence I must work and you keep talking
[08:45] <abelli> froud: where's god gone ?
[08:45] <abelli> lately.
[08:46] <froud> keep telling you he is a myth
[08:46] <abelli> the more i move towarrds neurosciences ... the more i love you.
[08:46] <froud> he exists because you do
[08:46] <froud> so he is like your shadow
[08:46] <froud> were you are he is
[08:47] <froud> abelli is god
[08:47] <abelli> froud: i knew that.
[08:47] <abelli> but i can tell you that different cultures give different ppl.
[08:48] <abelli> you're "mdke: come si dice occidentale?"
[08:48] <froud> people will think we are mad if we start this conversation here and I am 2 tired to rant on this today
[08:48] <mdke> abelli, erm...
[08:48] <mdke> westerner?
[08:48] <abelli> and this makes you think that individuality is more important than the "mdke: collettivita'"
[08:48] <mdke> group?
[08:49] <abelli> froud: this is the typical reasonment of a person that after 2 books thinks to be mastering the subject...
[08:49] <abelli> mdke: grazie
[08:49] <mdke> heh my translating is rubbish
[08:50] <abelli> mdke: si lo sappiamo . yes, we know.
[08:50] <abelli> :)
[08:51] <abelli> i was looking something more noblesse_d'oblige for "collettivita'", im talking to  froud ... you know.
[08:51] <froud> cant understand a thing you are saying, but ok, yes, yes and yes
[08:52] <mdke> italian lends itself to philosophy better than english
[08:52] <froud> oh boy why did I start
[08:52] <froud> somebody give abelli a pacifier
[08:52] <abelli> froud: can i call you "mamma"?
[08:53] <froud> yes my son
[08:53] <abelli> mmm well, what about "magister"?
[08:53] <froud> how to bring the temprement out of an Italian
[08:53] <abelli> froud: ... your work ...
[08:54] <froud> yes my son, it was hard work
[08:55] <abelli> froud: no i mean. .. you should return to your work.
[08:55] <froud> abelli: but you are my lifes work
[08:55] <abelli> mdke: define temprement how froud's used it.
[08:55] <abelli> froud: yeah live me stronger.
[08:56] <mdke> abelli, no idea ;)
[08:56] <froud> mdke: is playing English
[08:56] <abelli> the typical Londoner...
[08:57] <abelli> Camdon? the Mid-Land?
[08:58] <froud> No the market
[08:58] <abelli> between the Ciouty and Grinchley?
[08:58] <abelli> froud: ...i was Lord of The Ringing your mispelling ... sorry.
[08:59] <froud> not worried boy spelling now
[08:59] <froud> give me a break
[08:59] <froud> all I do all day is worry about spelling
[08:59] <abelli> ok, but please the bugzilla  thing.
[08:59] <abelli> i unsubscribed from ubuntu-it for quite the same reason ...
[09:00] <abelli> are you talking about Jeez Capello... disco music hero?
[09:00] <mdke> i'm going to watch Friends
[09:01] <abelli> froud: pleading you with my eyes twice in 6 months is not nagging you ...
[09:01] <froud> :-)
[09:01] <froud> chow
[09:01] <abelli> ciao
[11:38] <hypatia> last chance for people to let me know their availability for an IRC meeting...