[02:59]  * pleia2 waves
[02:59] <Skullz> Allo :)
[02:59] <pleia2> almost meeting time :)
[03:00] <Skullz> Yep :D
[03:00] <DarkwingDuck> Aye it is
[03:00]  * Skullz looks around
[03:00] <philipballew> 7:00
[03:01]  * pleia2 IRCs from new desk!
[03:01] <pleia2> ok, let's get this rolling
[03:02]  * Shakata|Home waves
[03:02] <pleia2> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/11June19
[03:02] <pleia2> looks like grantbow isn't here for the first item, we'll come back to it if he arrives
[03:02] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Discuss changing the launchpad team from moderated to open.
[03:02] <pleia2> DarkwingDuck: all yours!
[03:02] <rww> o/
[03:03] <DarkwingDuck> Okay, as it stands at the moment we have a policy for jioning the LP team.
[03:03] <DarkwingDuck> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/LaunchpadMembership
[03:04] <DarkwingDuck> I'm trying to understand why we have closed membership for our team
[03:04] <DarkwingDuck> I would propose that we open our LP team
[03:04] <DarkwingDuck> IMO Having a closed team sends the wrong message.
[03:05] <rww> DarkwingDuck: Did you read the log from the meeting at which that was implemented? iirc, we went through the reasons for it there.
[03:05] <pleia2> currently we ask that people applying get in touch with the team somehow, while this was a nice idea when it was proposed, in reality no one does it
[03:05] <pleia2> so even if we had great reasons for it, the process as it stands now doesn't work
[03:06] <DarkwingDuck> rww: You have a link to those logs by any chance?
[03:06] <philipballew> i never got in touch. i was just accepted a hour later. so pleia2 is correct that it isn't implemented
[03:07] <rww> DarkwingDuck: I'm looking. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10June27 seems to be one of them, and I imagine the meetings around it probably have some discussion.
[03:07] <pleia2> philipballew: I knew you :)
[03:07] <rww> Data point: there are 37 pending memberships in the LP team right now.
[03:07] <pleia2> philipballew: if I didn't know you I wouldn't have approved you, our approval queue is huge
[03:07] <pleia2> yeah, 37 :(
[03:08] <akk> We definitely don't want people applying and sitting in the queue. That's bad.
[03:08] <pleia2> akk: *nod*
[03:08] <DarkwingDuck> I'm just pointing out that it sends the wrong signals and messages. Not ones that I would assume that a friendly open group woudl like to send.
[03:08] <philipballew> i never got in touch just to get accepted. 37... because were so popular!
[03:09] <DarkwingDuck> Does anyone have objections to an Open team?
[03:09] <pleia2> so I think we need to either: 1: open the team; 2: empower our admins to add people based on believing they are a human (this is what we did for pennsylvania) or 3: come up with a solution to make our process we have now work somehow
[03:09] <rww> In my opinion, this is tied to what the LP team is actually used for. aiui, that's 1) determining who can vote in leadership elections, 2) determining who has access to write to the team bzr repository. I don't think that having both of these be unrestricted is a particularly good idea.
[03:10] <akk> I remember those discussions of why people should have to renew (in the log rww referenced) -- but that doesn't answer why they should have to wait in a queue to join in the first place.
[03:10] <pleia2> 3) adding things to the loco directory
[03:10] <philipballew> i have wanted to be able to sign people up to the group at Ubuntu hours before. but didn't want the people to have to wait. it was just a though to implement if sd hour gets big.
[03:10] <philipballew> it would help us grow possibly
[03:10] <pleia2> rww: I've never really seen it abused in other teams
[03:10] <pleia2> (and bzr has reverts! and a bunch of us keep an eye on loco directory)
[03:11] <rww> pleia2: Neither have I, though the only other team I have experience with that's open is UW.
[03:11] <akk> I can't imagine people joining our LP team in order to game our voting".
[03:11] <pleia2> rww: honestly I think UW is the one where it would be most likely to be abused - of all the community teams in ubuntu
[03:12] <rww> and all in all, people who don't put in enough effort to satisfy the membership criteria are unlikely to vote anyway
[03:12] <akk> yeah, UW is much more of a target.
[03:12] <pleia2> rww: there are active members who didn't follow the procedure, I like and respect these people now that I know them but even they didn't read the directions
[03:12] <DarkwingDuck> So, does anyone have any issues with opening the team at all?
[03:12] <aaditya> o/
[03:13] <DarkwingDuck> yes aaditya?
[03:13] <pleia2> so I don't really see it as "not putting in enough effort"
[03:13] <rww> I think it's a little odd to propose and implement opening it without looking into why it was closed in the first place. Other than that, I'm pretty much apathetic either way.
[03:13] <pleia2> people just don't expect it, so they don't look for joining rules on loco teams
[03:13] <aaditya> I don't have any issues. Also, Hi!
[03:13] <jbermudes> Is there a way to set permissions on LP so that people can join but aren't automatically granted those certain rights?
[03:13] <DarkwingDuck> Ahhh, Hi :)
[03:13] <pleia2> jbermudes: no
[03:14] <pleia2> launchpad is not particularly flexible (you'll see this reflected in some teams having a half dozen launchpad teams to handle permissions, it's awful)
[03:14] <akk> rww: Do we know why it was closed? That log you pasted is about requiring renewals, not about joining (unless I've missed something).
[03:14] <rww> akk: I don't know, I only read the agenda right before the meeting started.
[03:15] <akk> Seems like if nobody can come up with a good reason for it, that's a good argument for opening it.
[03:15] <pleia2> if I recall correctly part of it was not having a launchpad team full of unactive people, and getting some kind of introduction so that new members could be contacted when there were events in their area
[03:16] <pleia2> and weeding out spam bots
[03:16] <pleia2> the wiki page DarkwingDuck linked says "To give us a chance to get to know you (and to weed out spam bots), we ask that you get in touch before we approve your join request."
[03:16] <akk> Do we have introductions now, or any record of who lives where?
[03:16] <jbermudes> Right, that was also the reasoning behind the renewal was to have some sort of way to keep a somewhat active roster
[03:16] <akk> I know it's taken me a long time to figure out which IRC nicks are northern vs. souther.
[03:16] <akk> n
[03:17] <aaditya> Do we reach more people through the mailing list by allowing unactive and lazy people on the LP team?
[03:17] <pleia2> all that's actually required is that they make some kind of contact somehow, even if it's just "hi"
[03:17] <pleia2> we don't track where people are formally, and don't require them telling us
[03:17] <pleia2> aaditya: the mailing list is completely unrelated to LP
[03:18] <rww> Do you need to be in ~ubuntu-california to RSVP to LoCo Directory events? Something philipballew said earlier seems to imply you do, and I think that's relevant.
[03:18] <rww> (as a reason to make it open, that is)
[03:18] <pleia2> rww: nope
[03:18] <rww> hrm
[03:19] <pleia2> since people often go to other people's loco events when they're in town
[03:19] <rww> because the other side of the coin is "what are we losing by keeping it restricted?"
[03:19] <pleia2> in general trying to join a team and being stuck in a queue for months is demotivating
[03:19] <akk> We're probably losing members who try to join, and get frustrated at waiting.
[03:19] <rww> being in the LP team isn't a requirement for doing LoCo stuff, though :|
[03:20] <DarkwingDuck> And just the appearence of having a restricted LP team.
[03:20] <akk> Even if they eventually get approved, that probably makes them figure the team is pretty dead and not worth caring about.
[03:20] <aaditya> Can we improve this process by not making them wait for that long?
[03:20] <pleia2> and when people see so many people waiting they get the impression that it's closed, some people have told me in person they didn't apply because they assumed the admins were dead and not approving anyone
[03:20] <jbermudes> So isn't that an issue with the people approving as opposed to a problem with the idea of approval?
[03:20] <philipballew> does it have to be pleia2 who approves or can we off load to others?
[03:20] <akk> Making them not wait that long sounds like it requires volunteers.
[03:20] <rww> One thing I think we used to do is reject applications after some amount of times with an explanation of how the team works. I assume that doesn't happen now?
[03:21] <eps> (1) Whatever we decide should be documented (and dated?) (2) This issue seems bigger than us ... is there a "best practices" we should be referring to?
[03:21] <akk> It's easy to say "those dang people not doing their job! why don't <<they>> approve people faster?"
[03:21] <rww> (which would prod people into actually doing it properly, and get rid of that "oh noes, 37 people are waiting, the team must be dead" thing)
[03:21] <pleia2> philipballew: everyone in the leadership team does, we can add more, but that's not the bottleneck
[03:21] <jbermudes> pleia2: then what's the bottleneck?
[03:21] <pleia2> our policy
[03:21] <rww> the bottleneck is that people who hit the join button aren't reading the "*** IMPORTANT NOTE:" and contacting an admin, aiui
[03:22] <pleia2> we require people to introduce themselves somehow, if they don't we can't add them
[03:22] <akk> They have to apply, then also send an email somewhere?
[03:22] <aaditya> If they fail to provide enough info or otherwise prove that they're human, we could reject the membership and tell them to retry with relevant info.
[03:22] <jbermudes> couldn't we do it via IRC? they have to come into the channel, say hi, and then Eureka can add them?
[03:22] <rww> "Some ways of doing this are using our mailing list or IRC channel, coming to an event or meeting, or contacting one of our group administrators privately."
[03:22] <rww> so yes, IRC works fine.
[03:22] <pleia2> things I count as introducing: joining IRC with a name that's obviously tied to LP, emailing the list, coming to an event
[03:22] <aaditya> However, the question boils down to: Should we require introductions?
[03:22] <pleia2> but I have to know they are the same person joining, and sometimes I don't know
[03:22] <pleia2> every time someone joins I search my IRC logs and mail for them
[03:22] <philipballew> not all new people do irc
[03:23] <pleia2> if I find them I add them, if not they stay in the queue
[03:23] <rww> philipballew: which is why we wrote several options when making the policy
[03:23] <philipballew> i did forms and still do mostly
[03:24] <jbermudes> if it's an issue of not knowing that the queue is getting long, we could make Eureka alert us just like it does that the wiki has changed
[03:24] <akk> It feels like setting up hoops to jump through, like the SRU or patch submittal processes.
[03:24] <pleia2> so even with me searching email and trying to track down activity from these people... we have 37 in the queue
[03:24] <akk> "Mwa ha ha, you may have done this step, but you missed that you also need THIS step! Denied!"
[03:24] <pleia2> the process doesn't work
[03:24] <rww> akk: right, and the question is whether the hoops are necessary given the benefits you get from joining the LP team (which boils down to voting rights)
[03:25] <pleia2> I approve maybe 10% of people joining, and that's usually due to my effort in trying to see if they've been active
[03:25] <akk> And if they're on IRC but their nick is different from LP, you probably wouldn't see them.
[03:25] <aaditya> akk: imho, it works if we also make it clear that they can apply again immediately and need to provide XYZ.
[03:25] <pleia2> akk: *nod*
[03:25] <akk> (unless you're going to extraordinary effort)
[03:25] <DarkwingDuck> But shouldn't anyone be able to vote?
[03:25] <rww> pleia2: If we switch the team from Restricted to Open, does the renewal preference go away, or is that still applied?
[03:26] <DarkwingDuck> it's not like this is Ubuntu Membership
[03:26] <pleia2> rww: I'd say it's still applied
[03:26] <pleia2> we have expiration for a different reason which I think is fine
[03:26] <sn9> akk: irc nicks are listed on one's lp page, even if the lp name is different
[03:26] <rww> pleia2: I meant technically, but yeah :)
[03:26] <pleia2> rww: oh no, you can still set expirations on open teams :)
[03:26] <rww> pleia2: yay
[03:26] <akk> aaditya: Sort of, but it's demoralizing to keep having to reapply. That's why i've had patches sit in bugs for years ... I get tired of "no, submit it this way." "Okay, now we have that, but we also need this other format."
[03:27] <akk> aaditya: After a while you decide it's not worth it.
[03:27] <aaditya> DarkwingDuck: that'll be an issue if someone brings their 20 inactive friends, e.g., to vote in their favor.
[03:27] <pleia2> even the ubuntu-women team hasn't had trouble with ballot stuffing
[03:27] <akk> sn9: Assuming they listed their irc nick there, and the person on our end doesn't mind the extra step of looking for it.
[03:28] <DarkwingDuck> I just didn't like the image a closed loco team sends.
[03:28] <aaditya> akk: introduction isn't a big requirement. If they can't go through that much, maybe it's not worth it to them, which raises the question of whether or not we should let them in.
[03:28] <sn9> akk: correct
[03:28] <pleia2> aaditya: mostly it's just that people don't read the directions, there are active people in the team who didn't notice them until I pointed them out
[03:28] <rww> I think opening the team and saying "Anyone who's been a member of the LP team for more than x days is eligible to vote in this election." may be a reasonable solution. x could equal 30.
[03:29] <pleia2> I wouldn't put that against their character, humans are just lousy
[03:29] <pleia2> rww: yeah, UW does that
[03:29] <aaditya> pleia2: oh, fair enough.
[03:29] <akk> aaditya: I don't mind groups where the Join page also has a section "tell us something about yourself." But if it's an extra step you have to notice, that's not so good.
[03:29] <DarkwingDuck> That would assume that everyone has an LP account.
[03:29] <aaditya> akk: agreed.
[03:29] <DarkwingDuck> What about those who are on the ML but have no LP Account?
[03:29] <philipballew> depends on what type of group we want to me.
[03:29] <rww> DarkwingDuck: as I understand it, you currently need to have an LP account to vote in our elections currently. If you want to change that, that's a whole separate issue.
[03:29] <aaditya> Can we limit voting to those who have been a member for, say, 6 months?
[03:29] <rww> s/currently //
[03:29] <rww> aaditya: yes
[03:30] <pleia2> rww: yes, that's how it works now
[03:30] <rww> well, yes it's technically possible. I think 6 months is too long.
[03:30] <pleia2> I think 6 months is too long as well
[03:30] <sn9> i find "humans are just lousy" to be more typing than "people suck"
[03:30] <akk> I agree, 6 months is a long time.
[03:30] <DarkwingDuck> 1-3 months is a better solution
[03:30] <rww> yup ^
[03:30] <aaditya> I would be inclined towards setting it to 3 months.
[03:30] <akk> 3 months ++
[03:30] <aaditya> (6 was just an example.)
[03:31] <akk> (that's not "3 or more months", it's support for ==3 :)
[03:31] <sn9> 6 months is one release cycle, to put it in perspective
[03:31] <rww> How often are elections? I can't find the page I vaguely remember existing with these details :|
[03:31] <DarkwingDuck> Yes.
[03:31] <aaditya> Are 3 months enough for a new person to understand the team
[03:32] <DarkwingDuck> 1 year?
[03:32] <aaditya> ...team's general direction?
[03:32] <DarkwingDuck> I believe?
[03:32] <pleia2> 1 year
[03:32] <DarkwingDuck> Last election was mid/end october 2010
[03:32] <pleia2> should just be /Leadership
[03:32] <pleia2> but the wiki is being horrible
[03:32] <akk> I thought it was "whenever the team gets sufficiently annoyed with current leadership" :)
[03:32]  * DarkwingDuck hates the wiki
[03:32] <rww> oh, there it is. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Leadership
[03:32] <DarkwingDuck> LOL
[03:33] <DarkwingDuck> assuming no one steps down.
[03:33] <rww> akk: If the last election is anything to go by, the next one might be as controversial as the recent DPL election ;P
[03:33] <aaditya> I got an HTTP 50x error on the leadership page a moment ago, and it worked after rww posted it.
[03:33] <aaditya> Wiki sucks.
[03:33] <rww> aaditya: yeah, the wiki has issues
[03:33] <pleia2> they upgraded it last week, it hasn't been a particularly graceful upgrade
[03:33] <pleia2> hoping they'll fix it when they get back into work tomorrow ;)
[03:33] <aaditya> (I easily mistook it for a 404 done incorrectly.)
[03:34] <rww> Anyways. Any objections to opening the team up, keeping renewal policy as it is, and requiring that voters in elections have been in the LP team for 90 days* prior to the election announcement?
[03:34] <DarkwingDuck> I have no issues with that rww
[03:34] <rww> * I personally like 30 better, but everyone else likes 90 so whatever.
[03:35] <pleia2> rww: sounds perfect
[03:35] <aaditya> rww++
[03:35] <sn9> 60 :P
[03:35] <pleia2> (I like 30 better too)
[03:35] <aaditya> (pleia2: before I forget, we didn't do newbie introductions at the beginning of this meeting.)
[03:35]  * DarkwingDuck is in favor of 30
[03:35] <DarkwingDuck> Bugger
[03:36] <pleia2> aaditya: we're been trying to do announcements and intros at the end, but I suppose introductions at the beginning do make sense
[03:36] <pleia2> so maybe we should just do announcements at the end ;)
[03:36] <aaditya> That works too. I thought we skipped it.
[03:36] <sn9> jdeslip: 30 or 90? what say you?
[03:37] <DarkwingDuck> I don't think jack is here is he?
[03:37] <pleia2> no, he's not
[03:37] <sn9> just in case
[03:37] <DarkwingDuck> I'm not going to die if people vote 90 instead of 30
[03:37] <pleia2> ok, well we have a couple months until voting, do we want to table that portion and add it to a meeting item next meeting so people who care can vote then?
[03:37]  * aaditya murmurs 90 from a corner.
[03:37] <pleia2> just go with "open team and keep renewal policy"
[03:37] <DarkwingDuck> Why not vote via ML?
[03:38] <pleia2> DarkwingDuck: I've never really seen that work well, but we can try
[03:38] <DarkwingDuck> :D
[03:38] <eps> I oppose using the ML for this
[03:38] <rww> you could do a CIVS poll of everyone eligible to vote currently... *runs off giggling*
[03:38] <sn9> why not vote with that voting thing used for the first geeknic(s)?
[03:39] <sn9> i mean, what rww said
[03:39] <pleia2> rww: don't make me cry :'(
[03:39] <DarkwingDuck> rww: We could make an LP poll....
[03:39]  * DarkwingDuck hides
[03:39] <aaditya> I personally easily overlook emails on the ML, so I'd say ML--. Also, how hard would it be to make a tool that uses launchpad API to validate voters and allows them to vote?
[03:39] <sn9> lp poll would make sense
[03:39] <pleia2> LP has polls, and would work for something this simple
[03:39]  * aaditya starts to scribble something on a piece of paper.
[03:39] <aaditya> LP polls +1
[03:40] <pleia2> so let's set up a poll, have it expire after our next meeting so we can remind people at the next meeting to vote real quick before it ends
[03:40] <pleia2> and we'll email it to the list
[03:40] <rww> would be useful as a demonstration of whether LP polls do in fact work, at least ;P
[03:40] <pleia2> rww: indeed!
[03:40] <sn9> and civs for the actual votes
[03:41] <pleia2> yeah, CIVS for elections is tricky (we need to get jono to pull some strings), but we should use it
[03:41] <DarkwingDuck> CIVS isn't so bad... We used it for our Kubuntu Council elections.
[03:41] <pleia2> ok, so I think we're agreed: opening the team up, keeping renewal policy as it is, setting up LP poll to see how long you have to be a member before you're eligable to vote in an election
[03:42] <rww> DarkwingDuck: the major hurdle is getting email addresses of people with email addresses hidden on LP. but yeah, it's doable.
[03:42] <rww> pleia2: +1
[03:42] <sn9> pulling the strings should not be difficult, considering the need for civs is ultimately due to a decision from up above
[03:42] <DarkwingDuck> rww: That's what Scott Kitterman was going on about.
[03:42] <DarkwingDuck> pleia2: +1
[03:43] <akk> +1
[03:43] <pleia2> DarkwingDuck: you need everyone's email address, not everyone makes their email address public, so you need to get a list from LP admins (which is Wrong but possible if you're jono) or use up all your daily allowance of "emailing people on LP" to contact them and get their email addresses
[03:43] <pleia2> this usually takes several days and the result of all this effort is a couple people replying with their email address to be added to the poll, some people yelling at you, and mostly people ignoring you
[03:43] <rww> this is probably obvious, but I'll note it for posterity: I assume that while opening the LP team, everyone currently pending will be added?
[03:44] <pleia2> rww: yes, thanks for mentioning it
[03:44] <DarkwingDuck> IIRC yes
[03:44] <eps> Not everyone has an @ubuntu.com address, and not everyone wants<EMAIL_ADDRESS>addresses made public
[03:45] <pleia2> eps: yep
[03:45] <pleia2> ok, shall we move on?
[03:45] <DarkwingDuck> Yes.
[03:45] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Review Approval Application and discuss goals
[03:45] <pleia2> I have a lot of non-ubuntu things to say about the wiki today
[03:45]  * DarkwingDuck snickers
[03:45] <pleia2> I had intended to finish the events portion of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/ApprovalApplication2011
[03:45] <pleia2> but with the wiki practically unusable, I couldn't
[03:46] <pleia2> so we'll have to finish reviewing those later, but for now I wanted to bring up that we need to write up some goals
[03:46] <pleia2> for reference, our goals last time around are on our Approval App from 2009: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/ApprovalApplication
[03:47] <DarkwingDuck> Internal Server Error
[03:47]  * DarkwingDuck snickers again.
[03:47] <pleia2> indeed
[03:48] <DarkwingDuck> So we are looking at our goals for the next year?
[03:49] <pleia2> I'd call "short term" in the next 6 months, and "long term" the next two years (when we go through reapproval again)
[03:49] <DarkwingDuck> I would like to see what "Bigger Programs" our LoCo woudl like to get involved with.
[03:49] <pleia2> we don't need to decide upon goals right now, but I at least wanted to get the discussion rolling
[03:50] <pleia2> DarkwingDuck: such as?
[03:50] <DarkwingDuck> Italy does Laptop Testing Team
[03:51] <DarkwingDuck> There are programs that we, as a LoCo can get involved with.
[03:51] <pleia2> ah, that's a good one
[03:51] <rww> I'd like us to look into whether there are more conferences/conventions/whatever than SCaLE we could be going to. OSCON moving northwards made a gap in the calendar :|
[03:51] <pleia2> I did some xubuntu testing at the last global jam, that went really well
[03:51] <DarkwingDuck> Are there any confereces in NorCal?
[03:51] <rww> and yeah, what DarkwingDuck said. QA stuff always needs people.
[03:51] <rww> DarkwingDuck: I don't know ;P
[03:51] <philipballew> none really DarkwingDuck
[03:51] <akk> DarkwingDuck: Not really. :(
[03:51] <philipballew> unless i'm wrong
[03:52] <DarkwingDuck> So, SCaLE is our yearly conference.
[03:52] <akk> Well, lots of confs but no specifically linux-related or ubuntu-related ones.
[03:52] <philipballew> oscon is in august
[03:52] <philipballew> portland
[03:52] <rww> It's just weird to me that there isn't one so I assumed there is. Maybe there isn't :|
[03:52] <pleia2> yeah, the washington and oregon teams are doing oscon
[03:52] <DarkwingDuck> Oh, I'm designing a booth for us at SCaLE. I'll upload and post the finished blueprint when it's done.
[03:52] <DarkwingDuck> Anyway, that's for a SCaLE discuss.
[03:53] <DarkwingDuck> If you would like I'll go through and find some good places and assemble a list.
[03:53] <pleia2> ok, so these are both good goals - get involved in more QA stuff and put more effort into conferencey venues other than SCaLE
[03:54] <DarkwingDuck> I know that soon there will be a QA Community person and maybe that person will have more stuff for Locos to do.
[03:54] <pleia2> I've also been talking to the folks in Italy about their best practices for testing, so their ISO and Laptop stuff is pretty much ready to go
[03:55] <DarkwingDuck> But, having something outside our state would be a good idea IMO
[03:55] <rww> this is a little apropos, but Oneiric ISOs are now dd'able to USB sticks instead of needing that USB Creator thing, which might make ISO QA a little easier.
[03:55] <akk> That'll be great.
[03:55] <pleia2> nice
[03:56] <pleia2> usb sticks really are the way to go about testing, and it's silly that ISO Creator required 2G sticks (I didn't actually own any that big until I bought some)
[03:56] <akk> You can't buy anything smaller than 2G now.
[03:56] <akk> But of course lots of people have old stuff.
[03:56] <pleia2> yeah, most of mine are free-from-conferences kinds, which are all 256-1G
[03:57] <rww> a non-technical end user brought an 8GB stick into work to backup about 100MB of stuff the other day, so I take it USB sticks are cheap ;P
[03:57] <akk> ISO Creator also required a lot of stuff software-wise -- I've tried it on many different machines and never gotten it to work.
[03:57] <akk> dd works from any linux machine.
[03:57] <pleia2> I think I paid $10 for my 4G sticks
[03:57] <rww> akk: or OS X, or Windows even
[03:57] <rww> which is wonderful
[03:57] <pleia2> nice
[03:57] <akk> ah, didn't know windows had dd
[03:57] <pleia2> ok, well I think this is good goal-wise for now
[03:57] <rww> akk: well, there are programs that do it. they're a /lot/ less annoying than the previous way of doing it.
[03:58] <akk> usually I see instructions like "if you're on linux, type this dd command. If you're on windows, follow the next two pages of instructions."
[03:58] <pleia2> I'll add them to the wiki once that's possible, and hopefully by next meeting we'll have a more complete app to review :)
[03:58] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Announcements, intros, other misc
[03:59] <pleia2> so, anyone new here tonight who cares to introduce themselves? or anyone with announcements about upcoming events or anything?
[03:59] <Skullz> I'm new here :3
[03:59] <pleia2> welcome Skullz :)
[03:59] <Skullz> Thank you. :)
[03:59] <Skullz> Anything I should add? Aha.
[04:00] <pleia2> only if you care to share, but whereabouts are you in the state? have you been to any events? any questions or expectations of the team?
[04:01] <DarkwingDuck> Skullz, where are you from?
[04:01] <DarkwingDuck> NM, Lyz beat me to it.
[04:01] <pleia2> (this goes for anyone who is new :))
[04:01] <DarkwingDuck> Oh, I'm David Wonderly and I'm in San Diego.
[04:01] <Skullz> Ah. I am from San Francisco, and I've so far been to yesterday's geeknic. :)
[04:01] <DarkwingDuck> Awesome. :)
[04:01] <Skullz> Ah, yes, and my name is Dash.
[04:01] <BrightAmbition> Oh
[04:01] <pleia2> Skullz: me too! but I don't we formally met?
[04:01] <BrightAmbition> ok
[04:02] <BrightAmbition> I think i did meet him but i forgot what he looks like
[04:02] <BrightAmbition> lol
[04:02] <Skullz> I don't believe so, no.
[04:02] <pleia2> ah, well next time then
[04:02] <Skullz> Hopefully, if I can before I move :)
[04:02] <DarkwingDuck> I need to make it up there for events.
[04:02] <DarkwingDuck> Maybe if I get this job...
[04:02] <Skullz> Meet who, BrightAmbition?
[04:03] <BrightAmbition> Skullz: I was the person in the Linux Chicks shirt
[04:03] <pleia2> looks like we're pretty sparse event-wise on the loco directory right now, but I'm sure that'll pick up once people add their monthly ubuntu hours
[04:03] <pleia2> for july
[04:03] <BrightAmbition> Skullz: I think i talked to you for a bit but i don't remember what you look like for some reason
[04:03] <Skullz> Ahh.
[04:03] <Skullz> I was the tall one, in the grey shirt with the rolled up sleeves.
[04:03] <pleia2> we'll have at able at the linux picnic here in norcal in august, but that's a bit far out for an announcement :)
[04:03] <pleia2> s/able/table
[04:03] <BrightAmbition> Skullz: Short or long hair?
[04:03] <Skullz> Ear length, brown.
[04:04] <BrightAmbition> Skullz: Glasses or no glasses?
[04:04] <Skullz> No glasses.
[04:04] <pleia2> Skullz: oh, are you the one moving to an island?
[04:04] <Skullz> Yes, yes I am.
[04:04] <pleia2> we didn't formally meet, but I heard part of that conversation
[04:04] <BrightAmbition> Skullz: What were you wearing for some reason i could now remember people by which color they were wearing but usually i remember by face
[04:04] <Skullz> Ahh, oka :)
[04:05] <aaditya> Skullz: Welcome to Ubuntu California!
[04:05] <pleia2> anyway, we should wrap up this meeting so I can finish putting my office back together! ;)
[04:05] <pleia2> anyone else have anything to add?
[04:05] <BrightAmbition> sounds fun pleia2
[04:05] <Skullz> BrightAmbition, I was wearing a grey, long-sleeve shirt with the sleeves rolled up. I had on tan cargo shorts as well, and white sneakers.
[04:05] <BrightAmbition> Skullz: oh
[04:05] <aaditya> Yes, Geeknic was a blast yesterday. Looking forward to the next one.
[04:05] <BrightAmbition> I feel that same way aaditya
[04:05] <Skullz> I was probably seen moving around my backpack a bit.
[04:06] <pleia2> btw, we're planning the next one for July 16th down in los gatos
[04:06] <BrightAmbition> Hopefully we could crash a wedding next time
[04:06] <BrightAmbition> lol
[04:06] <aaditya> yes!
[04:06] <Skullz> Yeah, I'm disappointed I had to leave early.
[04:06] <rww> I'm looking forward to there ever being a geeknic that doesn't conflict with my work schedule. Mainly so I can look at how time was bended to make that happen since I work constantly ;P
[04:06] <aaditya> We'll be more prepared for crashing weddings next time.
[04:06] <BrightAmbition> Awesome!
[04:06] <rww> bended? bent. pah.
[04:06] <BrightAmbition> lol
[04:06] <pleia2> rww: I think you should have fewer jobs
[04:06] <pleia2> :)
[04:07] <DarkwingDuck> Any other buisness?
[04:07] <pleia2> ok, let's wrap this thing up, thanks for coming everyone!
[04:07]  * DarkwingDuck waves.
[04:07] <BrightAmbition> Mark should wear the penguin suit and dancing at a wedding reception so people could take pictures
[04:07] <BrightAmbition> lol
[04:07]  * DarkwingDuck snickers
[04:08] <pleia2> chasing geese: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/5159643579/in/set-72157625344546226
[04:08] <BrightAmbition> k, are we done talking yet?
[04:08]  * BrightAmbition continues to talk
[04:08] <BrightAmbition> hehe
[04:08] <BrightAmbition> I got a picture of that on my phone, lol
[04:08] <DarkwingDuck> LOL
[04:08] <pleia2> meeting is over, but everyone is welcome to stay and chat forever
[04:08] <BrightAmbition> yay!
[04:08] <DarkwingDuck> Mark is great.
[04:09] <BrightAmbition> More chatting!
[04:09] <DarkwingDuck> Oh I forgot something!
[04:09] <rww> my Facebook photo is of that time I wore that penguin suit... |:
[04:09] <pleia2> oh, the photos from the geeknick yesterday: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/sets/72157626874010053/
[04:09] <DarkwingDuck> Happy Fathers Day to all the dads in teh channel.
[04:09] <pleia2> geeknic!
[04:09]  * pleia2 didn't take enough photos
[04:09] <BrightAmbition> I had my birthday last week, that was fun
[04:09] <BrightAmbition> Well not really
[04:10] <BrightAmbition> I wanted to do karaoke
[04:10] <pleia2> DarkwingDuck: happy father's day :)
[04:10] <BrightAmbition> Even better Mark doing karaoke in a penguin suit
[04:10] <BrightAmbition> lol
[04:10] <DarkwingDuck> Thanks Lyz :)
[04:10] <BrightAmbition> Geez that was today?
[04:10]  * BrightAmbition is in panic mode
[04:10] <DarkwingDuck> Girls are in the bath and my son has taken over my playstation
[04:10] <pleia2> DarkwingDuck: haha
[04:10] <BrightAmbition> That sucks
[04:10] <BrightAmbition> I would want the playstation back
[04:10] <BrightAmbition> :)
[04:11]  * pleia2 wanders back to cleaning up her office
[04:11] <crashsystems> I hope you never gave sony your credit card number
[04:11] <DarkwingDuck> About to take it back over... Time for some Call Of Duty: Black OPS
[04:11] <BrightAmbition> It's funny i forgot mother's and father's day
[04:11] <BrightAmbition> Not good
[04:11] <BrightAmbition> My parents are probably mad at me
[04:11] <BrightAmbition> lol
[04:11] <rww> pleia2: I did that the other week. As a reward, I now have three extra power strips and some spare ethernet cable :)
[04:12] <BrightAmbition> Black OPS is fun
[04:12] <BrightAmbition> But i keep dying on that game
[04:12] <DarkwingDuck> You play?
[04:12] <Skullz> Hahahaha
[04:12] <BrightAmbition> I have the demo of it
[04:12] <DarkwingDuck> ahhhh
[04:12] <BrightAmbition> When i did play it
[04:12] <DarkwingDuck> I was going to say add me LOL
[04:12] <Skullz> What platform?
[04:12] <DarkwingDuck> PS3
[04:12] <BrightAmbition> I'm too broke now to buy video games so i just get demos
[04:12] <Skullz> Woot, what's your PSN?
[04:12] <BrightAmbition> I have no clue
[04:12] <BrightAmbition> lol
[04:12] <BrightAmbition> I don't even remember
[04:12] <BrightAmbition> Not good
[04:13] <DarkwingDuck> Hakazakarekamaka
[04:13] <BrightAmbition> Because i'll have to log in somehow
[04:13] <Skullz> Mine's naeahuau
[04:13] <BrightAmbition> My friend list is full on there
[04:13] <BrightAmbition> lol
[04:13] <Skullz> Hahahahaha
[04:13] <BrightAmbition> I don't even remember what my username was
[04:13] <BrightAmbition> That's sad
[04:14] <Skullz> I can't play anytime soon, my family got hooked on net streaming Netflix
[04:14] <Skullz> T~T
[04:14] <BrightAmbition> Yea i have an account there
[04:14] <BrightAmbition> But i never use it
[04:14] <BrightAmbition> It costs after that i think
[04:14] <BrightAmbition> The free trial
[04:14] <eps> How 'bout those Sony films (oops!)
[04:14] <Skullz> They don't realize that it literally slows EVERYTHING down on the Internet
[04:14] <BrightAmbition> Why don't they just go on Hulu?
[04:14] <BrightAmbition> Hulu has movies too
[04:15] <BrightAmbition> Especially with Hulu plus
[04:15] <crashsystems> I need to get a non-comcast issued modem so that netflix stops killing my network.
[04:15] <BrightAmbition> Even more movies
[04:15] <Skullz> They don't want to pay for anything else
[04:15] <BrightAmbition> Comcast sucks
[04:15] <BrightAmbition> They are like the windows of cable companies
[04:15] <BrightAmbition> lol
[04:15] <rww> I'm seeding everything legal I can find until I hit 90% of my Comcast monthly allocation, because Comcast annoys me.
[04:15] <Skullz> Comcast is like the only thing here
[04:16] <Skullz> Whenever they turn it on, I find a band I like and torrent an album
[04:16] <Skullz> Just to mess with them >__>
[04:16] <BrightAmbition> Skullz: Where do you live?
[04:16] <rww> This project started a little over a day ago. 26.5GB total up and down today :)
[04:16] <Skullz> San Francisco, BrightAmbition.
[04:16] <rww> (250GB is the Comcast monthly cap, for anyone who doesn't know)
[04:16] <eps> Eww.
[04:16] <Skullz> Ahhhh.
[04:16] <BrightAmbition> Skullz: There's other stuff i think
[04:16] <BrightAmbition> sn9 what other stuff do they have in SF?
[04:17] <Skullz> OH, well, at the moment I'm at my father's in Pacifica.
[04:17] <crashsystems> my connection can actually handle netflix just fine if only the QoS on the modem would stop screwing everything up.
[04:17] <DarkwingDuck> Skullz: Request sent.
[04:17] <rww> The only ISP on the couple of blocks around me is Comcast. The AT&T station is too far away for reasonbly-sized DSL :(
[04:17] <rww> s/sized/speed/
[04:17] <Skullz> cool! :D
[04:17] <eps> Some parts of SF are served by Astound
[04:18] <Skullz> So, if I may, how long has everyone active been using Ubuntu?
[04:19] <crashsystems> work gets level 5 fiber, but 1.87 miles away I can only get comcast.
[04:19] <crashsystems> Skullz: since summer 05
[04:19] <DarkwingDuck> I started in 2006 and switched to Kubuntu in '08
[04:19] <Skullz> Cool :)
[04:19] <DarkwingDuck> I'm pretty much the KDE whore of the Loco LOL
[04:19] <BrightAmbition> ubuntu is great
[04:19] <rww> I've been switching between Ubuntu and Debian since feisty, I think. The last time I switched distros was 2011-05-30, to Kubuntu.
[04:19] <Skullz> I'm still a noob, as I started in November, I believe.
[04:20] <BrightAmbition> No "Do you want to update?"  Dunno when that was.
[04:20] <BrightAmbition> I actually wanted Kubuntu but i think sn9 only had the disk thing for ubuntu
[04:20] <akk> Hoary, that was it.
[04:20] <Skullz> I started off with Lucid when my friend gave me a live disk.
[04:20] <BrightAmbition> How many updates does windows need? Like seriously?
[04:20] <BrightAmbition> There's like a million updates
[04:20] <rww> 11 in the past week!
[04:20] <Skullz> And then, during installation, I forgot to specify the partition and overwrote Windows.
[04:21] <rww> Ubuntu has a lot too, they're just not obnoxious.
[04:21] <DarkwingDuck> Windows? I have not used that since I left the military.
[04:21] <rww> Windows Update is extremely annoying.
[04:21] <BrightAmbition> Windows updates are annoying
[04:21] <akk> Do they still do multiple reboots?
[04:21] <Skullz> Yep.
[04:21] <rww> akk: yes
[04:21] <DarkwingDuck> I have yet to use Win7
[04:21] <rww> My work machine is currently refusing to download Windows 7 SP1 for some reason I haven't figured out yet :(
[04:21] <akk> Admittedly I do have to restart firefox after an ubuntu upgrade.
[04:21] <BrightAmbition> I only use windows for itunes
[04:22] <akk> (pretty much every time -- there's ALWAYS a firefox upgrade.)
[04:22] <BrightAmbition> Besides that i'm mostly on ubuntu
[04:22] <rww> It dies after an hour or so of trying with some error that doesn't tell me anything even with Google's help.
[04:22] <Skullz> I would only ever re-introduce Windows to my system for Photoshop.
[04:22] <BrightAmbition> They need to put itunes on linux
[04:22] <Skullz> I agree.
[04:22] <akk> I can't help but think Apple sees Linux as a competitor and so deliberately blocks it.
[04:22] <BrightAmbition> I think they do that on purpose
[04:22] <Skullz> Yeah.
[04:23] <Skullz> Which is really stupid, because of the MacOS.
[04:23] <BrightAmbition> Yea
[04:23] <akk> Why? It's a competitor to MacOS (and therefore a competitor to their hardware).
[04:23] <eps> Who maintains your printing architecture?
[04:23] <Skullz> But what I really hate, is when the advent Mac users tout their "knowledge of computers" and lump anything that isn't a Mac into the "PC" categorization, referring to Windows.
[04:24] <akk> Not that I think many people would leave MacOS just because iTunes started working from Linux.
[04:24] <rww> I don't think the competition from Linux is likely to be a significant problem compared to the competition from Windows (which has iTunes).
[04:24] <Skullz> Yeah.
[04:24] <akk> ooh, I hate that "PC" == Windows, Skullz
[04:24] <Skullz> Yeah, akk, it irks me to no end.
[04:24] <rww> It's probably more just the usual reasons why companies don't port to Linux. Cost of maintenance vs. how many people care, incompatible distros, etc.
[04:24] <akk> rww: They have to support Windows, they'd lose too much business if they didn't.
[04:24] <rww> akk: I know.
[04:25] <BrightAmbition> Do you think itunes would work in wine?
[04:25] <Skullz> Well, did Aaditya tell y'all about one of the members of his room managing to switch his entire company to Ubuntu?
[04:25] <akk> rww: There used to be browser ways to get to iTunes, and they blocked them, IIRC.
[04:25] <rww> BrightAmbition: http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1347
[04:25] <sn9> BrightAmbition: i tried to get kubuntu on, but it just wasn't working
[04:25] <sn9> Skullz: what part of SF, again?
[04:26] <rww> akk: It's been a while, but my understanding was that that was blocked during the time when iTunes had DRM that was being repeatedly cracked.
[04:26] <Skullz> Well, when I'm at my mother's (rare) I'm in the Haight-Ashbury
[04:26] <Skullz> @sn9
[04:26] <rww> akk: i.e. as part of their general hardening of iTMS security, not just to annoy Linux users ;)
[04:26] <sn9> Skullz: since when is it not possible to get DSL in that part of town?
[04:27] <BrightAmbition> rww: How does it work?
[04:27] <Skullz> sn9: Well, I'm at my father's ATM, in Pacifica.
[04:27] <Skullz> Either way, our internet is Comcast and ATT&T I believe.
[04:27] <rww> BrightAmbition: I haven't tried it, but given that WINE appdb ratings tend to be optimistic in my experience, and the most recent one is "Silver", I'd guess "badly".
[04:28] <BrightAmbition> rww: Ok
[04:28] <rww> oh, sorry, Bronze. so even more so.
[04:28] <sn9> neither comcast nor at&t deserve the internet business of the larger community
[04:28] <BrightAmbition> rww: There was one that was silver though
[04:28] <rww> you could ask #winehq about it though, somebody probably knows.
[04:28] <Skullz> I agree, the service is terrible.
[04:28] <BrightAmbition> is it in freenode, rww?
[04:28] <sn9> rww: itunes does not work under wine
[04:29] <BrightAmbition> grr
[04:29] <akk> All cable companies seem to have terrible service.
[04:29] <Skullz> Media Monkey does, though.
[04:29] <akk> Comes from having a monopoly.
[04:29] <BrightAmbition> So you mean i have to deal with windows?
[04:29] <BrightAmbition> AHHH!
[04:29] <BrightAmbition> lol
[04:29] <BrightAmbition> Sorry
[04:29] <BrightAmbition> It just annoys me
[04:29] <Skullz> Hahahahahahahaha
[04:29] <rww> or stop using Apple firmware (which involves not using Apple hardware, for recent versions)
[04:29] <rww> which is what I did ;)
[04:29] <sn9> BrightAmbition: yes, but virtualbox makes it less bad
[04:29] <BrightAmbition> sn9: I tried that it's not the same
[04:29] <BrightAmbition> sn9: Well kinda
[04:29] <Skullz> I only have one Apple device in my life.
[04:30] <BrightAmbition> sn9: I need a bigger screen
[04:30] <akk> It should certainly run in windows under virtualbox.
[04:30] <sn9> rww: she doesn't wanna get rid of the 18GB or so of apps on the ipod touch
[04:30] <rww> sn9: heh
[04:30] <rww> akk: it does. I imagine you need the non-OSE version for syncing.
[04:30] <BrightAmbition> sn9: The truth is i don't know how to
[04:31] <akk> rww: Yeah, anything that involves USB. Grr.
[04:31] <sn9> rww: there no longer is a non-OSE version
[04:31] <BrightAmbition> sn9: I put them there and don't know how to delete them i've tried no luck
[04:31] <akk> sn9: ?! So have they released the extras they were hoarding in the full edition?
[04:31] <rww> sn9: fine, the "VirtualBox Extension Pack".   XD
[04:34] <Skullz> And I dunno, I rather like Banshee >__>
[04:34] <sn9> Skullz: if you can avoid C#/.NET on the gnu, awesome
[04:34] <Skullz> Haha okay.
[04:35] <Skullz> And it works better than AmaroK on my system, anyways.
[04:35] <BrightAmbition> k
[04:36] <sn9> amarok is fine for kubuntu, but anything kde is still too confusing for everyday use IMO
[04:36] <Skullz> Okay, I think I'm going to make some dinner. If anyone wants to talk at a later date, I know I have Darkwing on PSN and anyone is free to stop by supernova.speeqe.com as Jabber is more my deal, and I'm there most of the day. :)
[04:36] <Skullz> Cheers, everyone!
[04:37] <sn9> Skullz: you can get here via jabber too
[04:37] <Skullz> jnsfjnsfbhsdf
[04:37] <Skullz> Really? Cool!
[04:37] <Skullz> Hahahhahahahahaha.
[04:37] <Skullz> Anyways, I'm off. Have fun, all.
[04:37] <rww> jyo: Looks like devin wants that phrase signed and sent to him, btw (he got back to me about it the other day)
[04:37] <crashsystems> sn9: irc via jabber?
[04:38] <sn9> crashsystems: yes
[04:38] <Skullz> Owait.
[04:38] <crashsystems> how in the world have I never heard of this?!
[04:38] <Skullz> Before I go, I don't believe Psi+ supports IRC.
[04:38] <Skullz> And that's my primary client.
[04:38] <sn9> jabber transports, duh
[04:39] <Skullz> So, for real now, I'm off.
[04:39] <Skullz> XD
[04:40] <sn9_> hello from jabber
[04:41] <crashsystems> hello
[04:42] <sn9_> crashsystems: join<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:45] <crashsystems> I joined, but I just keep getting messages from<EMAIL_ADDRESS>saying that I've entered an invalid command.
[04:48] <rww> so the amazonaws.com address sn9_ just joined from is the hostname that this irc.talkr.im thing is running off?
[04:50] <sn9> yes, rww
[04:51] <sn9> crashsystems: worked for me, as you just saw
[04:53] <crashsystems> I wonder if the fact I was using a google talk account had something to do with it
[04:53] <crashsystems> I really think xmpp has more potential than IRC, but everyone is already using irc/freenode
[04:54] <rww> for some values of "everyone" ;)
[04:54] <sn9> i was using a google apps acct logged into google talk via pidgin
[04:54] <sn9> so there
[04:55] <crashsystems> well by everyone, I mean the average geeky person who tends to hang out in online chat rooms with other geeky people.
[04:55] <sn9> xmpp may have a lot of potential, but generally it's badly implemented
[21:54] <DarkwingDuck> This is beyond epic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAl28d6tbko
[21:56] <akk> <3 Will It Blend
[22:07] <DarkwingDuck> It's amazing.
[22:07] <DarkwingDuck> Who did no one show me this awesomness before today?
[22:09] <akk> Be sure to watch the whole series!
[22:10] <pleia2> the one with the phone that still rang after it was blended was pretty awesome
[22:10] <akk> If you get tired of blending, this is good too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkOaQNiKgoo
[22:10] <pleia2> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt1fNKhQdKk
[22:14] <akk> haha, I hadn't seen the sonim phone