[01:50] <luisbg_> hello guys
[01:50] <luisbg_> _MMA_, hey, long time no see
[01:59] <luisbg_> anybody besides TheMuso and ScottL around?
[01:59] <TheMuso> Ok. Who do we have here for the UbuntuStudio meeting?
[02:00]  * luisbg_ raises his hand
[02:00] <TheMuso> I know stochastic wanted to try and make this meeting.
[02:00] <ScottL> I'm here for the Ubuntu Studio meeting
[02:00] <luisbg_> hello Scott
[02:00] <luisbg_> TheMuso, want to run the show?
[02:00] <luisbg_> or wait for more people to attend?
[02:00] <TheMuso> Sure. Do we have an agenda documented anywhere?
[02:00] <ScottL> hello luis...brb
[02:01] <luisbg_> TheMuso, not really, more an open forum... imprompta
[02:01] <TheMuso> I'll give stochastic a few minutes to show up.
[02:01] <TheMuso> fair enough
[02:01] <luisbg_> talk about the future first
[02:01] <luisbg_> and then follow that
[02:01] <TheMuso> ok
[02:03] <TheMuso> Ok will if stochastic shows up, he can jump in.
[02:03] <luisbg_> we can wait till past 10 maybe?
[02:03] <TheMuso> Ok, so I think we need to start by looking at the jaunty release, and how it was received, and identify what was good, and what was not so good.
[02:03] <TheMuso> I'll start, the RT kernel was bad.
[02:04] <luisbg_> +1
[02:04] <luisbg_> the key thing is to figure out how the development process can be improved
[02:04] <TheMuso> Yeah, and the kernel is something I want to bring up a bit later.
[02:04] <luisbg_> ok
[02:05] <TheMuso> Supporting firewire hardware was good.
[02:05] <luisbg_> :)
[02:05] <ScottL> how was the integration between pulseaudio and jack?
[02:05] <TheMuso> Thanks to rexbron's great work.
[02:05] <TheMuso> ScottL: Not sure, I don't remember seeing any user reports about that, but it should have been ok.
[02:06] <luisbg_> I dont recall any words about pa/jack
[02:06] <TheMuso> If we can get the right bits to land for karmic, it should be even better.
[02:06] <luisbg_> pulseaudio gives generic problems to all linux users
[02:07] <TheMuso> Well, its more that pulse exposes bugs in ALA, for the msot part at least.
[02:07] <TheMuso> ALSA
[02:07] <TheMuso> most
[02:07] <luisbg_> I see
[02:07] <TheMuso> The good thing is that pulseaudio is being developed so rapidly that things are always improving.
[02:08] <TheMuso> I still think we need pulseaudio in the studio desktop, but as I said, work is ongoing upstrea to improve the communication/integration between pulse and jack.
[02:08] <luisbg_> TheMuso, I agree
[02:09] <luisbg_> majority of users want to be able to skype in the same machine they play with ardour/blender
[02:09] <TheMuso> The other thing that was good last release is the desktop task not being shown on install, as it just gets installed now.
[02:09] <TheMuso> luisbg_: Yeah, but pulse and skype is going to be an ongoing issue till skype fix their broken use of alsa, or support pulseaudio.
[02:09] <luisbg_> it was just an example
[02:09] <TheMuso> Yep.
[02:10] <TheMuso> There is also bluetooth to consider, but thats more a consumer use case.
[02:10] <luisbg_> yeap
[02:10] <luisbg_> more good and bad features?
[02:10] <luisbg_> art was even better
[02:10] <luisbg_> lot of people gave me kudos about that
[02:11] <TheMuso> ScottL: Do you have anything else to mention?
[02:11] <TheMuso> luisbg_: Cool.
[02:11] <ScottL> TheMuso: not really since I still Hardy
[02:11] <TheMuso> ScottL: Right.
[02:11] <TheMuso> Ok well I think we
[02:11] <TheMuso> Ok well I think we'll move on
[02:12] <luisbg_> yes
[02:12] <TheMuso> The important thing to me at the moment is what do we do about RT. Unfortunately, the RT patches are always somewhat behind the latest mainline kernel upstream release. We tried getting patches for RT for kernel 2.6.28, which failed badly./
[02:13] <luisbg_> sadly Im not aware of the details involved
[02:13] <luisbg_> never got time to learn how the process works
[02:13] <luisbg_> and do it myself for once
[02:13] <TheMuso> We now look at a situation for karmic, where the main kernel will be 2.6.31. We don't even have 2.6.30 RT patches yet, and I don't want to go down the same route we did for jaunty.
[02:13] <luisbg_> so I think in this room you are the expert
[02:13] <luisbg_> I will follow what you think is best
[02:13] <luisbg_> do you see any solution?
[02:13] <TheMuso> Ok, I am just laying everything out. I wish there were a few more here to have input on this, but anyway.
[02:14] <TheMuso> Originally, I was thinking that we ship the latest kernel version that has upstrea supported RT patches. However this has been thrown into doubt, as we start getting pieces into the desktop that will require kernel 2.6.31 or better.
[02:14] <ScottL> Wouldn't it be better to have older patched RT kernel than current generic kernel?
[02:14] <ScottL> sorry, typed too slow
[02:15] <TheMuso> So at this point, I think we keep an eye on the RT patches as the cycle progresses, and we should find out whether 2.6.30 patches are coming, or even if 2.6.31 patches are planned.
[02:15] <TheMuso> I think we will no longer have Alessio Abogani's help as I think he has more real life concerns to deal with.
[02:15] <luisbg_> TheMuso, is there any problem if Studio doesnt have the same version of the kernel than main Ubuntu?
[02:15] <luisbg_> I recall there was
[02:15] <luisbg_> packaging probems and more
[02:15] <persia> I believe having a different version of the kernel will only add to the burden.
[02:16] <TheMuso> luisbg_: Not really, but it may cause unusual/weird breakage with desktop components, particularly pulseaudio.
[02:16] <TheMuso> persia: I am in agreement I think./
[02:16] <luisbg_> hello persia
[02:17] <TheMuso> Then there is the question of whether RT is still needed. Some users have reported that the generic kernel has been fine for their audio latency needs.
[02:17] <ScottL> what is the differential between RT latency and generic kernel latency?
[02:17] <ScottL> sorry again, typed too slow
[02:17] <luisbg_> TheMuso, hmmmmmm
[02:18] <TheMuso> I haven't measured it myself, so I can't say for sure, but I think generic wouldn't allow people with older hardware to get as good performance with their hardware.
[02:18] <luisbg_> it is an interesting topic (that of dropping RT)
[02:18] <TheMuso> Yes.
[02:18] <TheMuso> I think we need to ask users to do some testing for us, to get an answer as to whether we should drop RT.
[02:18] <ScottL> TheMuso: would a single core computer be considered "older hardware"?
[02:18] <persia> TheMuso, It's more than that.  RT generally gives better performance than generic even on newer hardware.  That most people can't hear the difference isn't always what is discussed.
[02:19] <TheMuso> ScottL: Depends on how old that machine is.
[02:19] <TheMuso> persia: Right, I think we still need to get users to test for us though.
[02:19] <luisbg_> persia, and a lot of users want RT
[02:19] <luisbg_> even if they dont need it
[02:19] <luisbg_> they feel better with themselves :P
[02:19] <persia> luisbg, Right, which is the tricky bit.
[02:20] <TheMuso> So given the mess we are in with trying to stay at the same version as Ubuntu, and not having RT patches, I am not sure where to go from here.
[02:21] <luisbg_> TheMuso, what do you reckon?
[02:21] <luisbg_> ask users
[02:21] <luisbg_> ?
[02:21] <TheMuso> persia is right in what he says about RT giving better performance regardless of hardware.
[02:21] <TheMuso> And I think those users who tested generic may have not tested performance with a full session load, i.e ardour with multiple plugins and other apps.
[02:22] <persia> And people always want to try to get more out of their hardware.
[02:22] <TheMuso> I think we just have to track upstream RT as well as we can, short of finding someone who knows the patches well enough to help us forward port them again.
[02:22] <ScottL> this RT kernel availability issue will continue to be a problem, will it not?
[02:22] <luisbg_> TheMuso, Im sorry the burden of RT is going to fall into your workload
[02:22] <TheMuso> ScottL: I think it will be, particularly if we want to track Ubuntu's kernel version, yes.
[02:22] <persia> I don't think it's a useful thing to ask users.  On the other hand, I think it is a useful thing to offer RT iff we can get RT patches for the current kernel.
[02:22] <luisbg_> so if you want to deal with it
[02:22] <luisbg_> Im not going to say "No" :)
[02:23] <TheMuso> Well, if I deal with it, I'll be able to do less of other things. I am interested in getting an RT kernel happening, and integrating jack and pulse. I am happy to sponsor other work from others who work on other things, but my focus from here on out I think will be the core pieces.
[02:24] <TheMuso> Which brings us to the next topic I think, which is manpower... Unless anyone has anything else to add about RT.
[02:25] <luisbg_> I know this is going to sound weird but...
[02:25] <luisbg_> RT is a big element in the "what differs Studio from main Ubuntu"
[02:25] <luisbg_> everytime somebody asks me about what is the difference
[02:25] <luisbg_> the conversation gets to a point where the question follows to
[02:26] <TheMuso> That doesn't sound weird to me.
[02:26] <luisbg_> "so what is the difference of grabing main ubuntu and installing the metas (or a list of cool creative apps)?"
[02:26] <luisbg_> and RT falls into the "ok, that is a big difference"
[02:26] <persia> Installing the metas would install RT anyway.
[02:26] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[02:26] <ScottL> FWIW, I'd rather have a machine that records music well than supports latest kernel/apps
[02:26] <ScottL> *than* not that
[02:26] <luisbg_> ScottL, :)
[02:27] <luisbg_> persia, I agree, yes
[02:27] <persia> The difference between installing Desktop and Studio metas and installing Studio is mostly about the default theme.
[02:27] <luisbg_> but without RT the need for a separate install disk is very little
[02:27] <persia> Oh, and stuff like Network Manager vs. Network Utilities.
[02:27] <luisbg_> yes
[02:27] <luisbg_> luckily Canonical helps us with the builds of the disks
[02:27] <persia> I disagree.  I believe there is utility to having a disk with the applications.
[02:28] <luisbg_> so it doesnt really matter that much
[02:28] <luisbg_> oh yeah
[02:28] <persia> Many people don't have optimised network connections in their studios.
[02:28] <luisbg_> off course having a 15 minute install and ready
[02:28] <luisbg_> is way better than 15 minute install, plus downloading and installing all the metas
[02:28] <luisbg_> if you can download off course
[02:29] <persia> But we've focused on RT for a while, to the detriment of other things.
[02:30] <ScottL> speaking of manpower...I want to help, but limited with experience
[02:30] <persia> I think we ought leave RT this cycle, to see what we can get from upstream, and call it best-effort.  Let's focus on polishing the other stuff (which takes us to manpower)
[02:30] <ScottL> I've only been using LInux for two years
[02:30] <TheMuso> I think we use the altest rt patches from upstream, and either work around, drop, or backport the patches we need for 2.6.31 desktop pieces. If that makes sense.
[02:30] <luisbg_> persia, we can have RT in the LTS and no RT in the other ones
[02:30] <TheMuso> persia: right
[02:30] <persia> TheMuso, That does make sense.  I just don't think we should consider not having RT a blocker.
[02:30] <TheMuso> right.
[02:30] <persia> luisbg, Having an RT requirement for LTS makes sense to me.
[02:31] <luisbg_> persia, and we can focus manpower into other stuff in non-LTS releases
[02:31] <persia> (There are also plenty of non-Studio RT users who would be served by that)
[02:31] <luisbg_> kinda like working in stages to a powerful LTS
[02:31] <persia> Right.
[02:31] <luisbg_> I want to talk about manpower later btw ;)
[02:32] <persia> What comes before manpower for our agenda then?
[02:32] <luisbg_> finishing with RT
[02:32] <TheMuso> I don't think there is anything else.
[02:32] <luisbg_> :)
[02:32] <TheMuso> Thats decided I think, best effort is all we can do.
[02:32] <TheMuso> I'll keep on it as well as I can.
[02:33] <luisbg_> trying to do RT in all releases as best as we can?
[02:34] <TheMuso> Yep, but we don't attempt to forward port/backport RT patches unless we have someone who knows them intimately, and can be certain that there will be little to no problems;/
[02:34] <TheMuso> i.e we track upstream's available patches.
[02:34] <TheMuso> Ok, so man power, and how we can recruit more help.,
[02:34] <TheMuso> This is what it all comes down to.
[02:35] <luisbg_> recruiting
[02:36] <luisbg_> and current developers and how much time they have for the project
[02:36] <TheMuso> I think the first place to start, is to get users testing the alphas at a minimum, and testing dailies at best.
[02:36] <TheMuso> luisbg_: Right.
[02:36] <luisbg_> myself...
[02:36] <luisbg_> with more responsabilities at work
[02:36] <luisbg_> and a full employee
[02:37] <luisbg_> as you guys have noticed probably... have less time than a year ago
[02:37] <TheMuso> luisbg_: Yep, and thats understandable.
[02:37] <luisbg_> I'm happy to offer the lead position to Luke
[02:37] <luisbg_> specially since he has more direct relations with the rest of community and canonical staff
[02:37] <luisbg_> :)
[02:37] <ScottL> I'm dying to help with stuff if someone points me in the right direction
[02:38] <TheMuso> luisbg_: If you really don't think you can reliably take care of that position, and if there is nobody else who is interested in leading the project, then I may consider accepting.
[02:38] <ScottL> and willing to answer questions when I get stuck
[02:38] <persia> ScottL, I think you've hit the most critical bit.  Building a task list.
[02:38] <luisbg_> TheMuso, I will be available
[02:38] <luisbg_> just not as much
[02:38] <persia> We need some clear direction on goals, and some organisation of stuff needing doing.
[02:38] <luisbg_> and as you know slightly unmotivated after the whole UDS/OVC fiasco
[02:38] <TheMuso> luisbg_: Right.
[02:39]  * ScottK wonders who this ScottL is?
[02:39] <luisbg_> TheMuso, I will tell you about OVC in an other moment
[02:39] <TheMuso> Ok, I'll sit down this weekend and see if I can come up with a task list, and some bits on how people can get stuck into that task list to help.
[02:39] <luisbg_> TheMuso, dont worry about this... we will work something out
[02:39] <ScottK> Sorry to interrupt, but it seemed funny from here.
[02:39] <luisbg_> TheMuso, about recruiting
[02:40] <TheMuso> luisbg_: ok
[02:40] <luisbg_> we should blog and shoot at the mailing lists soon
[02:40] <luisbg_> ok
[02:40] <luisbg_> this is an approach we can take
[02:40] <luisbg_> ScottL, want to help recruiting?
[02:40] <ScottL> certainly
[02:40] <TheMuso> Since my recent rekindling interest in producing music, I want to keep the project alive, and will do what I can to keep it that way.
[02:41] <luisbg_> TheMuso, Im aware of that
[02:41] <luisbg_> and I want to hear that music of yours
[02:41] <luisbg_> and will help to get to listen to it :P
[02:41] <luisbg_> TheMuso, you prepare that task list
[02:41] <TheMuso> heh, it will be a while yet, but it will happen.
[02:41] <luisbg_> I will shout in blog and mailing lists
[02:41] <luisbg_> and ScottL will grab the task list and the people interested at my shouts
[02:41] <TheMuso> luisbg_: Ok sounds good, will have a look at it on the weekend.
[02:41] <luisbg_> and gather a work force :)
[02:42] <luisbg_> TheMuso, yeah... I will be in the middle of the ocean with no internet connection for the next week
[02:42] <ScottL> luisbg_: sounds like a plan
[02:42] <luisbg_> until Guadec starts (2nd of July)
[02:42] <TheMuso> luisbg_: right, I saw your message.
[02:42] <luisbg_> TheMuso, so staying with the manpower and managing of the project
[02:42] <luisbg_> something I want to change is making things a little more serious
[02:43] <luisbg_> I will grab the tasklist and write it as action items in a wikipage
[02:43] <TheMuso> I was thinking of wikifying it myself.
[02:43] <luisbg_> then with the help of Scott assign action items to people
[02:43] <luisbg_> TheMuso, perfect!
[02:43] <TheMuso> When I do the list, I'll put it on the wiki, and will let everyone know on the list.
[02:43] <luisbg_> ok
[02:44] <luisbg_> then we can keep track of who is doing what
[02:44] <luisbg_> what is being done by whom
[02:44] <TheMuso> Yep.
[02:44] <luisbg_> times
[02:44] <luisbg_> schedules
[02:44] <persia> Scheduling is always inconvenient, but regular meetings can often help with visibility and task tracking.
[02:44] <luisbg_> persia, I agree
[02:44] <luisbg_> my atempts of general meetings failed
[02:44] <luisbg_> so having a more person to person tracking system
[02:44] <luisbg_> will help me have one-to-one meetings
[02:45] <persia> luisbg, If you have the time to coordinate that...
[02:45] <luisbg_> and keeping track (I will have a file for myself in a project tracking app)
[02:45] <luisbg_> persia, I think it will take me the same time, it will just be more optimized
[02:45] <luisbg_> right now there is a lot of running around :P
[02:46] <TheMuso> luisbg_: If you feel thats all you can do for the project atm, thats fine by me at least.
[02:46] <TheMuso> We just need some coordination and assigning of tasks, as already stated.
[02:46] <luisbg_> TheMuso, I will try to assign some action items to myself too
[02:46] <luisbg_> specially stuff related to parts of the project that Im experienced with
[02:47] <luisbg_> as I can do changes in the menu/controls quicker
[02:47] <TheMuso> Right.
[02:47] <luisbg_> TheMuso, going slightly off topic
[02:47] <luisbg_> but you and me need to decide a time that suits us both to talk every once in a while
[02:47] <TheMuso> luisbg_: Certainly, I'm happy for that to be a weekend if that suits you better.
[02:48] <luisbg_> right now it seams that every time I arrive at the office you are heading to bed, and when I leave the office you are waking up
[02:48] <TheMuso> Right
[02:48] <luisbg_> what is your usual on-line time each day
[02:49] <luisbg_> if I know you are going to be online when it's 11pm here, Im happy to jump in to talk and then continue with my night
[02:49] <TheMuso> Working week, from about 8:00AM/22:00UTC through to 5:00PM/0700:UTC
[02:49] <TheMuso> Weekends, it can vary.
[02:50] <TheMuso> But if it has to be a weekend, I can make the time.
[02:50] <TheMuso> Even if thats the only studio thing I do for that weekend.
[02:50] <luisbg_> forget about weekends
[02:50] <luisbg_> :)
[02:51] <TheMuso> Ok
[02:51] <luisbg_> let me check that 8-22 in respect to time difference
[02:51] <TheMuso> Ok, we are almost out of time. Is there anything else?
[02:51] <ScottL> re: meetings, I personally prefer group meetings so I can understand what all is going on
[02:51] <ScottL> but i understand that the two of you will need to discuss things
[02:52] <TheMuso> And with the existing team members so spread, thats not very easy. Look at the hassle we had getting this meeting going.
[02:52] <luisbg_> TheMuso, your 8am is my 11pm
[02:52] <TheMuso> luisbg_: Right, sounds good.
[02:53] <luisbg_> I will just ping you at 8:30 or around that time
[02:53] <luisbg_> :)
[02:53] <TheMuso> Ok sounds fine by me.
[02:53] <luisbg_> ScottL, do you have skype?
[02:54] <ScottL> luisbg_: not at the moment, haven't really had a need atm
[02:54] <luisbg_> not for now now
[02:54] <luisbg_> will might be calling you in a few weeks though :)
[02:54] <luisbg_> just something you should have in mind to get sorted
[02:54] <ScottL> it will be done
[02:54] <luisbg_> always easier to talk one-to-one on voice than chat chat chat :)
[02:55] <luisbg_> persia, any other topic you want to bring to the floor?
[02:55] <TheMuso> News just to hand, 2.6.31-rc1 is out.
[02:57] <persia> TheMuso, cool!
[02:57] <persia> luisbg, No.
[02:57] <luisbg_> cool
[02:57] <luisbg_> well
[02:57] <luisbg_> Im happy we have a plan now :)
[02:57] <luisbg_> lets put it in motion
[02:58] <TheMuso> Indeed.
[02:59] <luisbg_> well
[02:59] <luisbg_> anything else before we close the meeting people?
[02:59]  * luisbg_ has a plane to catch tomorrow :)
[03:00] <TheMuso> Have fun, and nothing from me.
[03:00] <luisbg_> TheMuso, talk to you soon and see you in August also \m/
[03:00] <ScottL> I have nothing more to add at this time
[03:00] <luisbg_> persia, are you coming to guadec by any chance?
[03:01] <luisbg_> ScottL, what is your time zone btw?
[03:01] <persia> luisbg, I'm not.
[03:01] <ScottL> central in the US
[03:01] <luisbg_> cool
[03:01] <luisbg_> I lived 9 months in Denver
[03:03] <TheMuso> Ok, till later folks.
[03:03] <luisbg_> hello cody-somerville
[03:03] <luisbg_> Meeting adjourned
[03:03] <cody-somerville> Hi luisbg_
[03:03] <ScottL> bye, talk to you soon
[03:03] <luisbg_> how is all cody?
[03:04] <cody-somerville> luisbg_, all cody is well, thanks. yourself?
[03:04] <luisbg_> doing good
[03:04] <luisbg_> in hollidays :)
[03:05] <luisbg_> well
[03:05] <luisbg_> gotta go to sleep
[03:05] <luisbg_> night everybody!
[03:37] <nextstepusr> Long live Fedora
[03:38] <nextstepusr> hello/
[03:38] <bazhang> hi
[03:38] <nextstepusr> hello
[03:39] <nextstepusr> can we do something about maybe making a TV ad on Ubuntu
[03:39] <bazhang> !brainstorm > nextstepusr
[03:40] <nextstepusr> I know about brainstorm but none of the users ideas are ever implements
[03:40] <nextstepusr> *impolemented
[03:43] <nextstepusr> hello?
[03:45] <nextstepusr> People please state their countey
[03:45] <nextstepusr> country
[03:45] <bazhang> nextstepusr, chat in #ubuntu-offtopic
[09:11] <slangasek> cjwatson: yeah, I think I missed one of the implications from the conversation we had. :)
[16:40] <persia> dholbach, geser, nixternal, jpds, nhandler, soren: Are enough of you going to be about that I can miss the meeting in a bit?
[16:41] <dholbach> soren and jpds wanted to be around
[16:41] <dholbach> nhandler is not going to be here
[16:41] <dholbach> dunno about geser and nixternal
[16:41] <AnAnt> Hello
[16:42] <dholbach> hello AnAnt
[16:51]  * geser waves
[16:51] <dholbach> persia: ^ :)
[16:56] <jpds> Afternoon.
[16:59] <dholbach> hello everybody
[17:00] <AnAnt> Hello
[17:00] <gaspa> uh, fridge and wiki are not coherent about the meeting start...
[17:00] <gaspa> dholbach: is fridge right?
[17:00] <dholbach> geser, jpds, soren: around?
[17:00] <jpds> Ja.
[17:00] <dholbach> gaspa: we moved AnAnt a bit earlier because he couldn't attend the later meeting
[17:00] <dholbach> #startmeeting
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is dholbach.
[17:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:00] <geser> gaspa: we moved the meeting one hour before to suit AnAnt better
[17:01] <gaspa> uops... so I should run home.
[17:01] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Contributing Developer application: أحمد المحمودي (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy)
[17:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Contributing Developer application: #-E/ 'DE-EH/J (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy)
[17:01] <dholbach> MootBot: you fail! :)
[17:01] <dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%D8%A3%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AF%D9%8A/UniverseContributorApplication
[17:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%D8%A3%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AF%D9%8A/UniverseContributorApplication
[17:01] <AnAnt> UTF8 problem ?
[17:01] <dholbach> looks like, yes :)
[17:01] <dholbach> AnAnt: how are you doing?
[17:02] <AnAnt> fine, thanks, how are you ?
[17:02] <dholbach> a bit tired... but generally alright :)
[17:02] <dholbach> AnAnt: what have you mostly been focusing ubuntu-wise in the last time? was it sabily?
[17:03] <AnAnt> some Debian packages
[17:03] <AnAnt> but a couple of months ago it was sabily
[17:03] <AnAnt> lately dico got accepted
[17:03] <dholbach> what has the response been like regarding sabily?
[17:03] <AnAnt> what response ?
[17:04] <dholbach> from users
[17:04] <dholbach> did you see a great uptake after the sabily release?
[17:04] <AnAnt> yes, I see many happy with it
[17:04] <AnAnt> except for the web control software
[17:04] <AnAnt> webstrict
[17:05] <AnAnt> I noticed on the blueprints that Ubuntu is working on one, so probably we may use that
[17:05] <dholbach> cool
[17:05] <dholbach> what was the biggest challenge when you worked on sabily?
[17:05] <AnAnt> other than that, users are happy with the applications we ship by default, and the themes
[17:05] <dholbach> I had a look at a few screenshots - it looked great :-)
[17:06] <AnAnt> hmmm, the artwork packages were the biggest challenge I think
[17:06] <AnAnt> the reason, is that to make our themes the default themes, one had to do stuff with gconf & so
[17:06] <AnAnt> before I worked on it, they used to do things in a way that is against Debian policy
[17:07] <AnAnt> like manually editing conf files & so
[17:07] <dholbach> *nod* that's what I heard from a few other derivatives too, that branding wasn't the easiest thing
[17:07] <AnAnt> currently there is still one thing that is against the policy (that's the main reason that we didn't try to push it to Ubuntu repos yet)
[17:07] <AnAnt> but hopefully that would change after grub2
[17:08] <dholbach> how is the effort behind non-solar-based calendars coming on? to me it seems like there's quite a few components that would need changing
[17:08] <AnAnt> dholbach: well, I only know of two software doing so: libitl0 & python-hijri
[17:09] <AnAnt> python-hijri isn't in Debian/Ubuntu yet, because of the copyright, there's a difference in opinion wether it is DFSG compliant or not
[17:09] <AnAnt> python-hijri is on the PPA though
[17:09] <AnAnt> I just looked at POSIX 2008 standard yesterday
[17:10] <dholbach> right... I was just asking because I know that bugs for this in glib and glibc have been open for years
[17:10] <AnAnt> I still don't find any support for non-solar-based calendars
[17:10] <dholbach> AnAnt: you could ask for a review by the archive admins to find out if it's suitable for inclusion in Ubuntu
[17:10] <dholbach> it sounds like it would solve a bunch of problems
[17:10] <AnAnt> dholbach: really ? please give me links to those bugs
[17:10]  * soren is around now as well, after kicking his X server around a bit :(
[17:11] <AnAnt> but I still think that this should better be in glibc not in some libraries
[17:11] <dholbach> AnAnt: I'll try to find them
[17:11] <AnAnt> for example I use mutt
[17:11] <AnAnt> am I going to make mutt use libitl0 to support hijri
[17:11] <AnAnt> if we do this for every app that would be just too much !
[17:12] <dholbach> yeah
[17:12] <dholbach> soren, geser, jpds: more questions?
[17:12] <soren> No, I was going to ask about the calendar thing as well :)
[17:12] <dholbach> AnAnt: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=344005 (glib)
[17:12] <geser> no
[17:12] <AnAnt> dholbach: thanks
[17:12] <jpds> None from me.
[17:13] <dholbach> soren: any more questions from you?
[17:13] <soren> Nope.
[17:13] <dholbach> [vote] Shall Ahmed El-Mahmoudy become Contributing Developer?
[17:13] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Ahmed El-Mahmoudy become Contributing Developer?.
[17:13] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[17:13] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[17:14] <dholbach> +1
[17:14] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[17:14] <soren> +1
[17:14] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[17:14] <geser> +1
[17:14] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[17:15] <dholbach> jpds: the suspense is killing us
[17:15] <AnAnt> hehe
[17:15] <dholbach> I'm sure it's something about broken X servers again
[17:15] <AnAnt> KMS stuff
[17:15] <AnAnt> ?
[17:15] <dholbach> I don't know - it all works for me :)
[17:16] <AnAnt> ok, till he comes back, where can I ask about glib ? I never knew glib has to do with calendar stuff
[17:19] <jpds> +1
[17:19] <MootBot> +1 received from jpds. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[17:19] <jpds> Sorry.
[17:19] <dholbach> AnAnt: I think it makes sense in glib, but probably would even make more sense further down the stack, to make timestamps and dates work in various calendars
[17:19] <dholbach> [endvote]
[17:19] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[17:19] <dholbach> congratulations AnAnt!
[17:19] <AnAnt> thanks guys
[17:19] <dholbach> AnAnt: but I'm no expert when it comes to calendars and stuff - I just stumbled over the bug :)
[17:20] <AnAnt> ok
[17:20] <dholbach> AnAnt: well done
[17:20] <dholbach> geser, jpds, soren: shall we go on and see who of our applicants is here?
[17:20] <jpds> Congrats AnAnt.
[17:21] <jpds> Ampelbein: Are you around?
[17:21] <AnAnt> jpds: thanks
[17:21] <geser> dholbach: sure, instead of idling for 39 minutes, we can also ask question to the next applicants :)
[17:21] <dholbach> [TOPIC] MOTU Application: Andreas Moog
[17:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Application: Andreas Moog
[17:21] <dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreasMoog/MOTUApplication
[17:21] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreasMoog/MOTUApplication
[17:21] <dholbach> Ampelbein: how are you doing?
[17:23] <dholbach> oops, sorry - I thought he replied
[17:23] <dholbach> ttx: around?
[17:23] <ttx> dholbach: yes
[17:23] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Core-Dev Application: Thierry Carrez
[17:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Core-Dev Application: Thierry Carrez
[17:23] <dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThierryCarrez/CoreDevApplication
[17:23] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThierryCarrez/CoreDevApplication
[17:24] <dholbach> ttx: how's life in France?
[17:24] <ttx> It's nice and sunny. I've a baby screaming on my lap so my answers might get delayed sometimes
[17:24] <dholbach> :-)
[17:24] <ttx> was kinda expecting the meeting at 1700utc
[17:25] <dholbach> ttx: AnAnt couldn't make it later on
[17:25] <ttx> I should be ok :)
[17:25] <dholbach> ttx: the most pressing question I have is the following:
[17:25] <dholbach> Mathias Gug said you should eat more cheese, what are your plans with that?
[17:26] <ttx> dholbach: well, its a kind of phobia. But I can work around it with cooked cheese
[17:26] <ttx> as long as it's not really raw. So I expect improvements in this area for the next cycles
[17:26] <dholbach> :-)
[17:27] <dholbach> ttx: how has your experience with Java packaging and integration changed in the last time?
[17:28] <ttx> dholbach: I would say I encounter two types of actions now. One is packaging missing packages... the other is wide changes to the state of Java library packages in general
[17:28] <ttx> Java packages don't get updated a lot so there are lots of old deps that need to be cleaned out
[17:29] <ttx> otherwise you get unwanted dependencies, that sort of things
[17:29] <ttx> so I look forward using core-dev powers to extend my reach to main Java library packages.
[17:29] <dholbach> ttx: do you think we're in a better position nowadays (with a few people working on it and having skills and knowledge) to train new people to start working on them?
[17:30] <dholbach> I'm asking because you said you'd like to do more mentoring and sponsoring :-)))
[17:30] <ttx> dholbach: yes. And we'll restart the Java team meetings very shortly to try to build a new momentum around that
[17:30] <dholbach> ROCK
[17:30] <geser> ttx: what's your impression about the current status of the several java packages in the archive?
[17:30] <dholbach> that makes me happy
[17:31] <ttx> dholbach: same space, next week, 0900UTC
[17:32] <ttx> geser: I'm currently working on cleaning up  lots of them, as part of eucalyptus-in-main and eucalyptus-on-cd blueprints
[17:32] <ttx> geser: so I'd say not that good, but improving.
[17:32] <ttx> geser: main problem at that point is hard dependency on a non-headless JRE
[17:32] <ttx> which pulls full JDKs on otherwise server-only installs.
[17:33] <ttx> I covered like 20 of them recently... more coming :)
[17:33] <soren> ttx: I remember there were a lot of things up in the air about how to deal with java packages some months ago. Is there a grand plan for dealing with embedded jar's and API incompatibility and all that jazz going forward?
[17:33] <soren> ttx: Example:
[17:34] <ttx> soren: not really. We are still at a point where if more software is added, there is a risk that the stack underneath will not support all software
[17:34] <soren> Say there turns out to be a bug in a java library, like Bouncycastle. Is everything in the archive that uses bouncycastle already using a separately packaged Bouncycastle?
[17:35] <ttx> there are workarounds, but the best is to convince upstream projects to have a saner approach to depends
[17:35] <ttx> soren: they should. there are a few black sheeps, but I'm tracking them through my java-Contents files, which allow to spot code duplication in java packages
[17:36] <ttx> I hope we can set up something more formal within the java team in the near future
[17:36] <soren> Cool. So we have an overview of packages that need to be fixed up in case there's a security problem?
[17:36] <ttx> Yes. Just grep for the affected class and the thing should tell you where it was unduly packaged
[17:36] <soren> Ok.
[17:37] <ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/JavaContents
[17:37] <soren> Ah, neat. I didn't know.
[17:37] <dholbach> soren, jpds, geser: more questions?
[17:38] <geser> ttx: have you any ideas how to resolve this self-build-depending of some java packages?
[17:38] <geser> I remember fighting with jboss and now maven-plugin-tools :(
[17:39] <ttx> geser: I hit that issue with a Eucalyptus dependency. The "solution" was to push it to multiverse first and have it build from source + JAR (like Java projects like to do)
[17:39] <ttx> then upgrade it to build-depend on itself
[17:39] <ttx> then move to universe once it is properly bootstrapped
[17:40] <dholbach> ttx: does that info live in JavaTeam/FAQ or something? :)
[17:40] <ttx> It's still dirty, but it was the least dirty way I could find.
[17:40] <ttx> dholbach: you got me. Not yet :)
[17:40] <dholbach> :-)
[17:41] <dholbach> I just thought "that's something that probably more than one person wondered already..." .-)
[17:41]  * dholbach is done with questions
[17:41] <geser> I've was about to repeat the cup stunt (include the debian deb uuencoded in the .diff.gz for bootstrapping) but got stopped by an other build-dependency
[17:41]  * soren has no more questions
[17:41]  * geser neither
[17:41] <dholbach> geser: wow
[17:41] <dholbach> jpds?
[17:42] <jpds> None from me.
[17:42] <dholbach> [vote] Shall we recommend Thierry Carrez for Ubuntu Core Developer?
[17:42] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall we recommend Thierry Carrez for Ubuntu Core Developer?.
[17:42] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[17:42] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[17:42] <soren> +2
[17:42] <dholbach> +1
[17:42] <jpds> +1
[17:42] <soren> +1
[17:42] <MootBot> +1 received from jpds. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[17:42] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[17:42] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[17:42] <soren> Worth a try.
[17:42] <geser> +1
[17:42] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[17:42] <dholbach> [endvote]
[17:42] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[17:42] <dholbach> well done, ttx
[17:43] <ttx> \o/ thanks everyone :)
[17:43] <dholbach> soren: I think that feature is only implemented for sabdfl :)
[17:43] <dholbach> gaspa: around? :)
[17:43] <gaspa> dholbach: here I am.
[17:43] <gaspa> :)
[17:43] <dholbach> excellent
[17:43] <dholbach> [TOPIC] MOTU Application: Andrea Gasparini
[17:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Application: Andrea Gasparini
[17:43] <dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gaspa2/MotuApplication
[17:43] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gaspa2/MotuApplication
[17:43] <dholbach> gaspa: how are you doing?
[17:44] <gaspa> quite tired. :P I've a little child that doesn't let me sleep too much :p
[17:44] <jpds> video survaillance? Interesting...
[17:45] <gaspa> jpds: of course :) i actually like what I'm doing.
[17:45] <dholbach> gaspa: who were the people you worked mostly with in the ubuntu developer community ... that were not Italian? :-)
[17:45] <gaspa> well, it depends...
[17:45] <dholbach> looks like the whole Ubuntu Italian developer mafia^Wgroup replied to your application :-)
[17:45] <gaspa> :D
[17:46] <gaspa> I started working with pitti, for usplash, but that was some time ago.
[17:46]  * warp10 chuckles
[17:46] <gaspa> about bug fixing, I didn't had contacts with any one in particular...
[17:46] <dholbach> ok
[17:47] <gaspa> simply asking for sponsoring...
[17:47] <dholbach> jpds, soren, geser: questions?
[17:47] <soren> Err...
[17:47] <jpds> Do you currently work with the QA team?
[17:48] <gaspa> jpds: i'm countinuosly work for QA.
[17:48] <gaspa> the thing I like most is writing script to find subtle bugs. :P
[17:49] <jpds> Oh, within the -it team? I was think more #ubuntu-testing :(
[17:49] <jpds> :)*
[17:49] <dholbach> gaspa: do you think there's lessons the other parts of the community can learn from the Italian community? there's lots and lots and lots of you guys :-)
[17:50] <gaspa> there's  ever a lot of new people in the -it channel...
[17:50] <gaspa> and we're simply trying to 'catch' them up :P
[17:51] <dholbach> we should have a separate discussion about that :)
[17:51] <gaspa> some times ago we tried an -it bug day, but it doesn't ends with much people. :P
[17:51] <gaspa> dholbach: sure :)
[17:51] <jpds> Have you ever run a local bug/packaging jam in your area?
[17:52] <gaspa> jpds: http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoSviluppo/BugDay
[17:52] <jpds> Oh, nice work.
[17:52] <gaspa> only one, with only me, dktrantz, and other two/three contributor...
[17:52] <dholbach> gaspa: you said you're interested in training new motu.... do you think there's anything generally missing?
[17:53] <gaspa> but that's only the first :P
[17:53] <gaspa> dholbach: oh, well, we lack of mentors, it seems.
[17:53] <dholbach> gaspa: who mentored you... when you started?
[17:54] <gaspa> dholbach: I hadn't any mentor.
[17:54] <AnAnt> what a coincidence , 3 of us got babies
[17:54] <gaspa> AnAnt: :D LOL
[17:54] <gaspa> dholbach: I asked one a month ago, but without response.
[17:54] <geser> preparing the next generation of Ubuntu developers?
[17:54]  * gaspa hoping
[17:55] <dholbach> gaspa: I know... it's a tough one... we're not big enough for one-to-one mentoring
[17:55] <dholbach> gaspa: but generally you feel we're on the right track?
[17:55] <gaspa> dholbach: oh, I appreciated a lot the split in junior/senior mentoring,
[17:56] <gaspa> perhaps do we need more people on -reception?
[17:56] <gaspa> don't know, just guessing
[17:56] <dholbach> maybe
[17:56] <dholbach> no more questions from me
[17:56] <dholbach> jpds, geser, soren: ^
[17:57] <jpds> Neither.
[17:57] <geser> no questions
[17:59] <dholbach> soren?
[17:59] <Ampelbein> hi. sorry i'm late. i think i confused utc again
[18:00] <geser> Ampelbein: no, we just started an hour earlier
[18:01] <Ampelbein> ah, ok. well, i guess this meeting is over?
[18:01] <dholbach> Ampelbein: no, we're waiting for soren to ask gaspa a question
[18:01] <geser> no
[18:02] <geser> Ampelbein: no worry, your application will be processed
[18:03] <Ampelbein> ok, i'm here
[18:04] <geser> dholbach is hopefully currently looking for soren so we can finish gaspa's application
[18:04] <gaspa> geser: around berlin? :P
[18:05] <dholbach> gaspa: sure... from Berlin to Denmark it's not that far ;-)
[18:05] <gaspa> dholbach: wow, you're so fast :D
[18:06] <dholbach> hum... I have no idea what happened to soren
[18:07] <dholbach> nixternal does not seem to be around yet
[18:07] <dholbach> and persia hopefully went to bed
[18:08] <geser> dholbach: should we start with questioning Ampelbein till soren comes back?
[18:08] <dholbach> maybe not a bad idea
[18:08] <dholbach> gaspa: we'll get back to you in a bit
[18:08] <gaspa> no probs.
[18:09] <dholbach> [TOPIC] MOTU Application: Andreas Moog
[18:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Application: Andreas Moog
[18:09] <dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreasMoog/MOTUApplication
[18:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreasMoog/MOTUApplication
[18:09] <dholbach> hey Ampelbein... sorry for the confusion - how are you doing?
[18:09] <Ampelbein> dholbach: i'm fine, thanks
[18:10] <Ampelbein> dholbach: little nervous though
[18:10] <dholbach> Ampelbein: don't worry :)
[18:10] <dholbach> Ampelbein: you said that there's heaps of bugs in older versions of Ubuntu... what has your experience been trying to get them fixed (be it through -updates or -backports)?
[18:11] <Ampelbein> dholbach: there were 2 SRU i managed to get into proposed/updates.
[18:12] <dholbach> Ampelbein: was it a lot of work? were you happy with how it all went?
[18:12] <Ampelbein> dholbach: but there was no successful backport, mostly because i did not have enough drive to do it.
[18:13] <dholbach> is it a lot of work to go through that process?
[18:14] <jpds> How do you feel PPA have affected backports?
[18:14] <Ampelbein> dholbach: the biggest problem was to find the one fix for the issue and get it done.
[18:14] <dholbach> Ampelbein: ah ok, I see
[18:15] <Ampelbein> dholbach: its a lot documentation, but i don't think its unneccessary work. we must ensure that the stable releases are good at all times
[18:16] <Ampelbein> jpds: in a negative way. more fixes are just uploaded to ppa but no one bothers to do a SRU/backport
[18:16] <geser> Ampelbein: as you mentioned that there a many unfixed bugs in the released ubuntu version, so we should do more SRUs? on the other hand I've read "complains" that Ubuntu does to many updates. Any idea how we can serve both sides?
[18:16] <Ampelbein> jpds: which is not bad in itself, when the ppa is used to preliminary test fixes, but the regular process should be undergone also
[18:17] <dholbach> Ampelbein: what would you say is your biggest interest going to be in the next months? desktop?
[18:18] <Ampelbein> geser: no idea atm. i don't think having many updates is bad, those who don't want them can just disable -updates/backports and rely on security alone
[18:19] <Ampelbein> dholbach: yeah, desktop and some python related stuff. but no particular package
[18:20] <Ampelbein> when there is nothing else to do, i will do some sponsoring/regular bug fixing.
[18:21] <dholbach> that sounds good to me :)
[18:21] <dholbach> "sponsoring" is music to my ears :)
[18:22] <geser> Ampelbein: there is never a "nothing else to do"
[18:22] <geser> :)
[18:22] <Ampelbein> but i must be careful. i tend to overlook some packaging flaws (mainly the LP:XXXX-thing)
[18:23] <dholbach> Ampelbein: what was your experience with working with debian?
[18:23] <Ampelbein> dholbach: good, i sent patches there and some were accepted.
[18:24] <Ampelbein> dholbach: some were not, i never received an response and have not asked again in the bug report
[18:24] <Ampelbein> for example the nzb-package had a remaining diff over debian, i sent it there and it got accepted -> sync
[18:24] <dholbach> excellent
[18:25]  * soren is here now.
[18:25] <dholbach> I hope we can make the sponsoring work so well that we don't keep people hanging there :)
[18:25] <soren> Sorry, the real world demanded my attention.
[18:25] <dholbach> I don't have any more questions for Ampelbein
[18:25] <dholbach> how about you geser and jpds, while soren catches up
[18:26] <Ampelbein> geser: yeah, i imagine that (nothing else to do happens quite rarely)
[18:26] <jpds> Ampelbein: Do you plan to start working with the backporters team at some point maybe?
[18:27] <Ampelbein> jpds: i honestly don't know yet. i don't want to start working on everything and then realising i dont make things right.
[18:27] <Ampelbein> jpds: i'd rather go one step for another.
[18:27] <jpds> Good plan :)
[18:27] <soren> No more questions for gaspa.
[18:27]  * soren catches up, slowly.
[18:28] <geser> Ampelbein: you mentioned earlier that people tend to upload a fix to their PPA and don't bother to do a SRU/backport. Is there a flaw in our processes that makes a SRU/backport too unattractive/hard?
[18:29] <Ampelbein> geser: i don't think it's something we can change. we should encourage users to do sru/backport. but most stop at the "works for me" point
[18:30] <Ampelbein> geser: maybe there should be an easy interface to request a sru from a ppa.
[18:30] <Ampelbein> geser: like bugzillas have their bug filing interface, we should have something similar for backports/srus
[18:31] <Ampelbein> of course that would mean to spend more time on those, as i can imagine the number of requests grows large
[18:31] <cody-somerville> :]
[18:31] <dholbach> geser, soren, jpds: any more questions for Ampelbein?
[18:32] <soren> Nope, I'm fine.
[18:32] <jpds> Nein.
[18:32] <geser> no
[18:32] <dholbach> [vote] Shall Andreas Moog become a MOTU?
[18:32] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Andreas Moog become a MOTU?.
[18:32] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[18:32] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[18:32] <dholbach> +1
[18:32] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[18:32] <jpds> +1
[18:32] <MootBot> +1 received from jpds. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[18:32] <geser> +1
[18:32] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[18:32] <soren> +1
[18:32] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[18:32] <dholbach> [endvote]
[18:32] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[18:33] <dholbach> congratulations Ampelbein!
[18:33] <jpds> Well done Ampelbein!
[18:33] <dholbach> [vote] Shall Andrea Gasparini become a MOTU?
[18:33] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Andrea Gasparini become a MOTU?.
[18:33] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[18:33] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[18:33] <soren> +1
[18:33] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[18:33] <dholbach> +1
[18:33] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[18:33] <geser> +1
[18:33] <jpds> +1
[18:33] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[18:33] <MootBot> +1 received from jpds. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[18:33] <dholbach> [endvote]
[18:33] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[18:33] <Ampelbein> thank you all very much!
[18:33] <dholbach> congratulations gaspa!
[18:33] <dholbach> YEEEHAW! :-)
[18:33] <gaspa> Ampelbein: congratulations . :)
[18:33] <Ampelbein> gaspa: yeah, congrats!
[18:33] <gaspa> thanks all! :D
[18:33] <warp10> gaspa, Ampelbein : rock on! :D
[18:34] <Ampelbein> warp10: will do! ;-)
[18:34] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Any other business?
[18:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business?
[18:34] <dholbach> jpds, geser, soren: anybody of you up for doing the honours?
[18:34] <dholbach> if nobody does, I'd do it in the morning
[18:35] <dholbach> I really need to head out in a bit
[18:35]  * soren has a foot out the door (literally)
[18:35] <dholbach> I guess that means that I do it in the morning... :-)
[18:35] <dholbach> ok... thanks a lot everybody
[18:35] <dholbach> #endmeeting
[18:35] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:35.
[18:35]  * warp10 and the other picciotti of the Italian Developers Mafia Group get back to the famiglia with a bottle of prosecco. Everyone's invited to the party, this is an offer you can't refuse...
[18:36] <dholbach> thanks again everybody
[18:36] <dholbach> warp10:  :-)))
[18:36] <warp10> dholbach: ;)
[18:36] <gaspa> :)
[18:36] <AnAnt> thanks
[18:36] <DktrKranz> \o/
[18:36] <soren> o/
[18:36] <dholbach> gaspa, AnAnt, Ampelbein, ttx: I promise, I do it real early tomorrow :)
[18:37] <gaspa>  \o/
[18:37] <AnAnt> ok
[18:37] <AnAnt> thanks
[18:37] <dholbach> :-)
[18:37] <dholbach> rock on everybody
[21:55]  * lool appears
[21:56] <NCommander> neat
[21:57] <mhall119|work> do it again
[21:59] <ogra__> moop
[22:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[22:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:00. The chair is NCommander.
[22:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[22:00] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
[22:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
[22:00] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090625
[22:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090625
[22:00] <ogra_> sigh, NCommander are you sure there is no piece of german in you_
[22:01] <ogra_> ?
[22:01] <NCommander> [link] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~canonical-mobile?show=all
[22:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~canonical-mobile?show=all
[22:01] <ogra_> #startmeeing at the moment where my clock flips 22:59 to 23:00 ...
[22:01] <NCommander> ogra_, :-)
[22:02]  * ogra_ heard lool wants to replace the roadmap with something cooler
[22:02] <NCommander> Who's here?
[22:02] <NCommander> o/
[22:02]  * StevenK isn't
[22:02]  * ogra_ pretends to be
[22:02]  * plars has melted into a puddle of mush due to extreme heat
[22:02]  * GrueMaster is not.
[22:03]  * NCommander puts plars in the freezer
[22:03]  * ajmitch lurks & watches
[22:03]  * NCommander blinks
[22:04] <lool> ogra_: it's done!
[22:04] <NCommander> There we go
[22:04] <NCommander> davidm won't be here
[22:04] <ogra_> right, post the link :)
[22:04] <NCommander> ogra_, I did
[22:05]  * ogra_ is to distracted by other channels :P
[22:05]  * NCommander is too
[22:05] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[22:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[22:05] <NCommander> [topic] ogra to investigate pm-dashboard (co)
[22:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to investigate pm-dashboard (co)
[22:05] <lool> ogra_: It's the same wiki page but the list of specs is from blueprints.lp.net instead of duplicated?
[22:05] <lool> ogra_: So we don't have to maintain both
[22:06] <lool> and it's always up-to-date
[22:06] <lool> Just keep your spec up-to-date basically :)
[22:06] <ogra_> lool, we have other stuff on the roadmap page
[22:06] <NCommander> ogra, the rest of its there
[22:06] <lool> ogra_: that's still there
[22:06] <ogra_> like specs of other teams we care about and bugs
[22:06] <ogra_> ah
[22:06] <lool> ogra_: Why don't you just *read* the current Roadmap page?   :-)
[22:06] <NCommander> ogra, so, pm-dashboard ...
[22:07] <ogra_> awesome
[22:07] <ogra_> i spent my day with it
[22:07] <ogra_> saldy it doesnt fit our requirements
[22:07] <ogra_> i filed bug 392098
[22:07] <ogra_> and bug 392094
[22:08] <ogra_> (there are other usability issues i didnt file yet, these two are critical for us to use the dashboard)
[22:08] <NCommander> Cool, ogra, why don't you add those to a wishlist section of the roadmap so we can track it
[22:08] <ogra_> good idea !
[22:08] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to investigate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vnc4/+bug/338148 (co)
[22:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to investigate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vnc4/+bug/338148 (co)
[22:08] <NCommander> c/o. Might get to this if I clone myself in the near future.
[22:09] <NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster to retest on i386 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
[22:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to retest on i386 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
[22:09] <GrueMaster> co
[22:09] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to investigate thunderbird segfaults on ARM (https://launchpad.net/bugs/340595)
[22:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to investigate thunderbird segfaults on ARM (https://launchpad.net/bugs/340595)
[22:09] <NCommander> Had a breakthrough with heavy assistance with asac, lool, fta, and a bunch of other people
[22:09] <NCommander> Its fix committed now in karmic
[22:10] <NCommander> We're pending a test build
[22:10] <NCommander> If anyone got an ARM karmic system beside me and feels like helping, shoot me a ping, I'd like to get one other person to test this before we shove it int he archive
[22:10] <NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster to ask StevenK to review mobile-unr-karmic-applications spec
[22:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to ask StevenK to review mobile-unr-karmic-applications spec
[22:11] <GrueMaster> moot at this point.
[22:11] <lool> NCommander: Well done on the TB stuff
[22:11] <NCommander> lool, you were a major help on that entire project. :-). asac going to handle putting it into karmic so while I think we need to keep tracking this, I think we're more or less done here
[22:11] <NCommander> s/karmic/jaunty/g
[22:12] <NCommander> [topic] ogra to get clarification on the 2D UNR spec
[22:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to get clarification on the 2D UNR spec
[22:12] <lool> NCommander: asac does the jaunty backport as well?  nice
[22:12] <NCommander> lool, well, he wants to upstream it, then put <IP_ADDRESS> into jaunty-security ...
[22:12]  * ogra_ applauds NCommander
[22:12] <lool> Oh ehehe
[22:13] <lool> via upstream, that's nice
[22:13] <NCommander> lool, it helps when asac has upstream commit rights
[22:13] <ogra_> NCommander, now earn your rupert and get us mono-debugger
[22:13] <ogra_> :)
[22:13] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to investigate mono-debugger on ARM
[22:13] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to investigate mono-debugger on ARM
[22:13]  * ogra_ hugs NCommander
[22:13] <NCommander> [topic] unr-karmic-accessibility to be reviewed and assigned
[22:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  unr-karmic-accessibility to be reviewed and assigned
[22:14] <ogra_> [action] NCommander find out what a rupert is :)
[22:14] <ogra_> *g*
[22:14] <NCommander> ogra, that only works for me ;-)
[22:14] <NCommander> (try [idea])
[22:14] <ogra_> i know
[22:14] <ogra_> nah, i dont want to log it
[22:14] <NCommander> so who put this action item down last week
[22:14] <NCommander> oh wait
[22:14] <NCommander> I didn't paste it
[22:14] <NCommander> [topic] unr-karmic-accessibility to be reviewed and assigned
[22:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  unr-karmic-accessibility to be reviewed and assigned
[22:15]  * NCommander looks around
[22:15] <plars> I think we concluded that unr-karmic-accessibility work would likely come from the dx team
[22:15] <NCommander> ok c/o
[22:15] <NCommander> Oh
[22:15] <NCommander> cool, then I don't need to care
[22:15] <NCommander> [topic] ogra to get clarification on the 2D UNR spec
[22:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to get clarification on the 2D UNR spec
[22:16] <plars> that's not to say that they have officially agreed to it, at least not that I know of
[22:16] <ogra_> lool assigned it to bfiller today
[22:16] <ogra_> so its done
[22:16] <NCommander> OSG works fast
[22:16] <ogra_> apart from that there is a prototype
[22:16] <ogra_> very cool thing
[22:16] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to confirm list of specs to be in Review and Approved and have davidm set LP status accordingly
[22:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to confirm list of specs to be in Review and Approved and have davidm set LP status accordingly
[22:16] <NCommander> I think I got everything
[22:16] <NCommander> If you see a spec that isn't set right, bug davidm
[22:17] <StevenK> -translations ?
[22:17] <lool> The two informational one seem bogus, see the Roadmap section
[22:17] <NCommander> StevenK, that one is a special case I think
[22:17] <lool> "Specifications which might be informational and need to be sorted out"
[22:17] <StevenK> NCommander: It is?
[22:17] <NCommander> StevenK, I heard that it isn't ours, but I might be misremembering
[22:17] <NCommander> Does someone want to take this?
[22:18] <lool> I think we want to clarify these
[22:18] <lool> StevenK: You were assigned as drafter
[22:18] <lool> StevenK: Can you clarify what's happening with them?
[22:18] <NCommander> [action] StevenK to clarify informational specs and -translations
[22:18] <MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK to clarify informational specs and -translations
[22:18] <StevenK> Why informational?
[22:18] <ogra_> they were in the list of the ones SteveA wanted to get rid of iirc
[22:18] <ogra_> err
[22:18] <ogra_> StevenK,
[22:19] <StevenK> I was just about to say I'm not 100% clear on -translations, and would like some help
[22:19] <ogra_> pitti might be good for that one
[22:19] <ogra_> he wrote a lot of the code to get translations going in ubuntu
[22:19] <StevenK> I think pitti has enough specs to write, I just want someone to draft it
[22:20] <ogra_> ah, i thought more for assistance
[22:20] <lool> StevenK: What about kyleN?
[22:20] <StevenK> Once I know what to do, I can get it done, it's figuring out what to do
[22:20] <StevenK> lool: I can prod him harder
[22:20] <lool> StevenK: Was the consensus to do translations in Ubuntu?
[22:21] <lool> ISTR it was, but please confirm
[22:21] <ogra_> it wshould
[22:21] <StevenK> I think it was to do them "upstream"
[22:21] <ogra_> so we get LP love
[22:21] <lool> StevenK: Really?
[22:21] <StevenK> Er, in the upstream projects
[22:21] <ogra_> ugh
[22:21] <NCommander> ow
[22:21] <StevenK> lool: Lets deal with this offline out of the meeting
[22:21] <lool> StevenK: Ack
[22:22] <lool> StevenK: What about the other one?
[22:22] <NCommander> [action] StevenK and lool to collobrate on -translations and to report back next week
[22:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK and lool to collobrate on -translations and to report back next week
[22:22] <StevenK> Which other spec?
[22:22] <StevenK> It's 7:20, I've not had tea, and Firefox doesn't love me
[22:22] <lool> StevenK: The one I pinged about earlier while you were sleeping!!  :)
[22:22] <lool> paulliu: I think it's yours
[22:22] <StevenK> -application-res?
[22:22] <lool> paulliu: I think we discussed it shortly; is it something davidm agreed we should do this cycle?
[22:22]  * GrueMaster wonders who does love StevenK?
[22:23] <lool> StevenK: Yup
[22:23] <paulliu> lool: Not sure. I haven't ask him.
[22:23] <StevenK> GrueMaster: Careful ...
[22:23] <ogra_> lool, you really need a dream-connector for StevenK :)
[22:23] <lool> paulliu: Could you chekc with him?  I'm pretty sure it's ok
[22:23] <GrueMaster> :D
[22:23] <paulliu> lool: ok.
[22:23] <lool> paulliu: It's just that the spec seemed in limbo
[22:23] <lool> paulliu: Will you take drafting as well?
[22:23] <paulliu> lool: yes.
[22:23] <lool> paulliu: I'll make you drafter
[22:23] <NCommander> ogra_, no, having dreams with your coworkers are bad enough. I think I would flip if I started getting assigned stuff in my dreams
[22:23]  * NCommander already had a TB related nightmare this week
[22:23] <paulliu> lool: no problem.
[22:23] <lool> StevenK: One down for you :)
[22:24] <lool> paulliu: Thanks
[22:24] <StevenK> \o/
[22:24] <ogra_> NCommander, just an IRC to dreams portal ;)
[22:24] <ogra_> we can use a special channel
[22:24] <lool> Back to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~canonical-mobile?show=all
[22:24] <lool> I wonder about the two unassigned specs
[22:24] <NCommander> lool, actually, I want to do meeting time first
[22:24] <StevenK> If lool starts giving me work in my dreams, I'm going to seek professional help
[22:24] <NCommander> StevenK, +1
[22:24] <lool> karmic-freescale-desktop and karmic-marvell-desktop
[22:25] <lool> NCommander: I'm still discussing sorting out specs status?
[22:25] <ogra_> and HW enablement :)
[22:25] <NCommander> oh, you are?
[22:25] <lool> NCommander: But we can defer to later in the meeting if you prefer
[22:25] <ogra_> they are all team assigned
[22:25] <NCommander> lool, no, go for it
[22:25] <StevenK> Oh, hardware-enablement needs drafting too?
[22:25] <lool> ogra_: These are targetted at karmic
[22:25] <NCommander> We're going to run over, we have too much to do this meeting, so I"m not super picky ...
[22:25] <lool> StevenK: it's approved
[22:25] <ogra_> HW enablement isnt ?
[22:25] <StevenK> Oh it is?
[22:25] <lool> But right, hw enablement needs an assigneed as well
[22:26] <StevenK> Like I said, Firefox doesn't love me
[22:26] <lool> So concerning the two desktop specs, we need to split work
[22:27] <NCommander> lool, in which way
[22:27] <lool> I was also surprized by UNR/FSL ending on dyfet's plate as he doesn't have B2, but since we have no 2D UNR nor OpenGL drivers, it's not an issue right now
[22:27] <ogra_> well, they are closely hardware bound
[22:27] <lool> NCommander: We need to have people implement FSL desktop and Marvell desktop
[22:27] <dyfet> I was surprised too ;)
[22:28] <NCommander> lool, well yes, but I think we can break that into mini-specs
[22:28] <lool> I think it's a collection of small things; for FSL it's probably just an update on what we have, and for Marvell it's a new image with uboot and all
[22:28] <NCommander> Or tasks
[22:28] <NCommander> and then individually assign those
[22:28]  * ogra_ hast read the specs, does it need special seeds ?
[22:28] <StevenK> I think that one will require physical hardware access
[22:28] <NCommander> (and then have one lead person to report progress)
[22:28] <lool> NCommander: Each spec can be broken down in work items, yes, but we need a responsible person for each
[22:28] <lool> NCommander: exactly
[22:28] <lool> I'm looking for such persons   :-)
[22:28] <StevenK> I'm happy to be the RP for UNR/FSL
[22:28] <GrueMaster> responsible?
[22:28] <ogra_> RP ?
[22:28] <StevenK> Oh dear god, did I just say that
[22:28] <NCommander> lool, that's asking a lot
[22:29] <lool> StevenK: Hmm this is not exactly the ones we were discussing, but we could discuss that
[22:29] <lool> Let me recap
[22:29] <NCommander> I can take Marvell or FSL desktop
[22:29] <StevenK> RP == Responisble Person, it's a DNS thing
[22:29] <lool> We have desktop FSL, desktop marvell, UNR marvell, UNR FSL, hardware enablement
[22:29] <ogra_> aww
[22:29] <ogra_> to long ago
[22:29] <StevenK> Ahh
[22:29] <lool> The UNR ones are irrelevant as long as we don't have OpenGL drivers OR a 2D UNR launcher, so no hurry
[22:29] <lool> Currently these are assigned to dyfet
[22:29] <StevenK> Right, okay
[22:30] <lool> StevenK: i'm happy if you help dyfet with UNR stuff though
[22:30] <NCommander> I think we can leave both UNR ones assigned to canonical-mobile
[22:30] <lool> Then, we have the two desktop ones
[22:30] <NCommander> (as it stands in LP, both are dependent on their desktop specs)
[22:30] <lool> NCommander: The UNR ones are /already/ assigned
[22:30] <ogra_> which is the default
[22:30] <StevenK> I think dyfet would be happy, too
[22:30] <lool> NCommander: And don't need to move to canonical-mobile
[22:30] <lool> Hmm ok
[22:30] <ogra_> i dont expect much apart from fixing remaining jaunty bugs for FSL
[22:30] <dyfet> StevenK: yes :)
[22:30] <lool> Actually you folks are correct, no need to assign them to dyfet now
[22:31] <NCommander> Just for sanity sake
[22:31] <ogra_> (new kernel and redboot aside here indeed)
[22:31] <NCommander> WHo currently has TO2 hardware, and who is getting Marvell hardware?
[22:31]  * ogra_ raises hands for both
[22:31] <lool> I removed assignees for these two
[22:31]  * NCommander raises hand for both (and two B1s that work, and another thats a brick)
[22:32] <ogra_> but marvell should be lead by someone else
[22:32] <dyfet> NCommander: I am on the Marvell "list"...
[22:32] <GrueMaster> According to davidm_'s email earlier, we should al be getting marvel boards "soon".
[22:32] <ogra_> i'm fine keeping babbage
[22:32] <lool> Now there's hw enablement, and the two desktop ones
[22:32] <NCommander> THat's fine
[22:32] <NCommander> then I'll take Marvell
[22:32] <ogra_> and help with marvell
[22:32] <NCommander> and help with FSL
[22:32] <NCommander> lool, is that fine by you?
[22:32] <lool> NCommander: marvell desktop?  that's ok with me
[22:32] <NCommander> Ok
[22:32] <ogra_> lool, i think they go hand in hand for each HW
[22:32] <NCommander> [action] ogra to lead freescale-desktop specification and projection implementation
[22:32] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to lead freescale-desktop specification and projection implementation
[22:32] <ogra_> (the desktop ones)
[22:32] <lool> NCommander: Actually there are two things
[22:33] <NCommander> argh
[22:33] <NCommander> :-P
[22:33] <lool> NCommander: One is FSL needs B2 hardware
[22:33] <lool> and cdimage capability (as discussed earlier)
[22:33] <lool> the other is that Marvell needs Marvell hardware and cdimage capability
[22:33] <StevenK> Why cdimage?
[22:33] <NCommander> StevenK, we need subarchitectures
[22:33] <ogra_> for adding the image specific stuff
[22:33] <lool> StevenK: Because we need to write cdimage scripts to output images
[22:33] <StevenK> Ahh
[22:33] <NCommander> StevenK, we fudged it and make imx51 the only armel image
[22:33] <lool> That's most of the work actually
[22:34] <NCommander> StevenK, to avoid another ps3 hack
[22:34] <StevenK> I'll just say 'ewww'
[22:34] <NCommander> StevenK, well put
[22:34] <NCommander> So
[22:34] <lool> So either we keep NCommander as assignee, and he asks for help, or we put cdimage folks as assignees and they ask NCommander for help
[22:34] <StevenK> I like the former
[22:34] <NCommander> lool, I have cdimage setup, so I can work on that
[22:35] <NCommander> lool, someone from cdimage will have to do the merge to antiomony
[22:35] <lool> NCommander: The cdimage cdimage is a bit different from the public cdimage
[22:35] <ogra_> yeah
[22:35] <lool> *cough*
[22:35] <NCommander> lool, that's not what I was told.
[22:35] <ogra_> and needs review usually from slangasek or cjwatson
[22:35] <NCommander> Ok ...
[22:35] <StevenK> Hysterical raisins
[22:35]  * NCommander looks at StevenK
[22:35] <lool> NCommander: But there are other tasks: packaging of uboot, kernel + image testing etc.
[22:35] <lool> NCommander: So you're tacking marvell desktop?
[22:35] <NCommander> Yeah, I'll take it
[22:36] <lool> Next is FSL desktop
[22:36] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to lead marvell-desktop specification and project implementation
[22:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to lead marvell-desktop specification and project implementation
[22:36] <lool> It's relatively easy, but it needs splitting out FSL stuff of armel into armel+imx51
[22:36] <lool> Then updates to redboot + kernel
[22:36] <ogra_> lool, as i said before i thing HW enablement, image building and basic desktop are one task
[22:36] <ogra_> so i'm fine to take that
[22:36] <lool> ogra_: hw enablement covers a shitload of netbooks
[22:37] <ogra_> HW enablement for FSL i meant :)
[22:37] <lool> ogra_: Are you talking of the hw enablement spec or just of the FSL spec?
[22:37] <lool> Ok
[22:37] <lool> I think it's an easy one yeah
[22:37] <lool> Ok, I'll assign to you
[22:37] <ogra_> thanks
[22:37] <lool> Final one is hw enablement for QA
[22:37] <NCommander> I already have that action item for ogra
[22:37] <StevenK> Sounds like plars
[22:37]  * StevenK hides
[22:37] <lool> I think I'd like someone from QA to pick that up   :-)
[22:37] <plars> lool: what's that?
[22:38] <ogra_> your task :P
[22:38] <lool> plars: The hwenablement spec
[22:38] <lool> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-unr-karmic-hardware-enablement
[22:38] <plars> ah, I haven't looked at that one yet
[22:38] <lool> needs an assignee to drive it; looks like it would be nice to have someone from QA pick it up
[22:38] <lool> or GrueMaster perhaps?
[22:38]  * GrueMaster hides
[22:39] <GrueMaster> What would I need to do?
[22:39] <ogra_> work ?
[22:39] <plars> actually, is this for the certification stuff?
[22:39] <GrueMaster> ogra_ Pfft!
[22:39] <ogra_> :)
[22:39] <plars> if so, that portion of it might already be covered by another blueprint
[22:39] <lool> plars, GrueMaster: it still needs implementation + design drafting at least
[22:40] <GrueMaster> I think I saw something on this earlier.
[22:40] <lool> Basically, one responsability of the mobile team is to make sure these netbooks work
[22:40] <GrueMaster> I only have one netbook.  This is something the QA team should look at as they have a bunch in MA.
[22:40] <GrueMaster> And it was discussed in UDS.
[22:41] <plars> lool: but is that with the assumption that it's going to go into the lab for official certification? or that it's going to be tested in cycle by this team?
[22:41] <lool> So if someone would be to drive this, I'd suggest coming up with a good way to ensure stuff works (test plan / test cases / checkbox etc.) and collecting results from people who have the hardware
[22:41] <lool> If something doesn't work, tracking bugs and progress on the resolution
[22:41] <lool> Finally, outputting release notes covering the actual level of support
[22:41] <GrueMaster> Like I said, the QA team already has a process for this in place I believe.
[22:42] <plars> lool: ok, give it to me then I guess, and we can hash out the details later... sounds like it shares a lot withe the mobile karmic qa UNR one that I already have
[22:42] <lool> plars: I know nothing more than you do, I wasn't at the discussion (you were I think?), it's just my guesses
[22:42] <lool> plars: Okay
[22:42] <lool> StevenK: You're drafter on that one
[22:42] <StevenK> Do I have to be? :-)
[22:43] <lool> StevenK: Will you complete drafting, or perhaps you can discuss this with plars out of band?
[22:43] <StevenK> Yeah, I'll talk to plars into it^W^Wabout it
[22:43] <NCommander> StevenK, you really need to fix your terminal settings
[22:43] <lool> Ok; I think that's all I had on blueprints triage; unless someone sees any other issue?
[22:43] <plars> bribery will get you everywhere
[22:44] <plars> wait
[22:44] <plars> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting doesn't seem to show up on the current list
[22:44] <lool> plars: It wasn't on the Roadmap wiki page
[22:45] <plars> lool: yeah, it just got thrown at me yesterday
[22:45] <lool> plars: It should appear now
[22:45] <plars> lool: ah, I see it now... it wasn't there a few min ago when I checked
[22:45] <NCommander> so is that everything on specification assignments?
[22:45] <lool> plars: So you'll draft and implement that?
[22:46] <NCommander> [action] plars to draft and implement mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting
[22:46] <lool> plars: It appeared because I sub-ed canonical-mobile to the spec just seconds ago
[22:46] <MootBot> ACTION received:  plars to draft and implement mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting
[22:46] <lool> plars: I've assigned you to the spec as well; let me know offline if that's incorrect
[22:47] <ogra_> 13mins ...
[22:47] <NCommander> [topic] Meeting Time Discussion
[22:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  Meeting Time Discussion
[22:47] <lool> plars: as I was saying I've assigned you to the spec as well; let me know offline if that's incorrect
[22:47] <GrueMaster> I kind of like it where it is.
[22:47] <NCommander> If you have an idea, please use [idea] to submit it, we'll individually vote on each one
[22:48] <NCommander> Each member can vote multiple times on each timeslot
[22:48] <plars> yeesh, just got dumped... it's drafted, needs review if someone is up for it
[22:48] <NCommander> The one with the most votes wins
[22:48]  * ogra_ agrees with GrueMaster
[22:48] <NCommander> In case of tie, it goes to David to decide
[22:48] <GrueMaster> [idea] current time works.
[22:48] <MootBot> IDEA received:  current time works.
[22:48] <NCommander> [idea] current time
[22:48] <MootBot> IDEA received:  current time
[22:48] <NCommander> argh
[22:48] <NCommander> gruemaster beat me to it
[22:48] <ogra_> [ides] agreeing on current time
[22:48] <ogra_> [idea] agreeing on current time
[22:48] <MootBot> IDEA received:  agreeing on current time
[22:48] <ogra_> gah
[22:48] <NCommander> ogra, no, I'll do a vote on it :-)
[22:48] <lool> So
[22:48] <lool> I don't mind the current time
[22:48] <lool> Except it conflicts with a moving meeting on Fridays
[22:49] <StevenK> [idea] current time, peer pressure
[22:49] <MootBot> IDEA received:  current time, peer pressure
[22:49] <NCommander> Well, do we have any other good candidates?
[22:49] <lool> So I'd like to move the *day* of the IRC meeting
[22:49] <lool> to keep at least two days away of that other meeting
[22:49] <NCommander> lool, to Friday?
[22:49] <StevenK> I'd like to move the time
[22:49] <lool> No
[22:49] <NCommander> StevenK, [idea] a time and day
[22:49] <lool> i'd personally recommend Tuesday for the IRC meeting and Thursday for that other meeting
[22:50] <NCommander> StevenK, it will be consider and reject^W voted
[22:50] <ogra_> paulliu, you are suffering from the time as well, dont you ?
[22:50]  * GrueMaster likes to watch StevenK squirm
[22:50] <paulliu> ogra_, yes a bit.
[22:50] <NCommander> and persia
[22:50] <lool> I don't think persia suffers this cycle, we can revisit in karmic + 1
[22:50] <lool> (for persia)
[22:50]  * StevenK books flights to OR
[22:50] <lool> Does someone object with moving to Tuesday/Thursday?
[22:51] <ogra_> well, given that paulliu replaces him, that doesnt mean much
[22:51] <NCommander> StevenK, bring a video camera, I want to watch
[22:51] <ogra_> bad time is the same
[22:51] <NCommander> [idea] Moving the meeting to Tuesday, same time
[22:51] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Moving the meeting to Tuesday, same time
[22:51] <NCommander> [idea] Moving the meeting to Thursday, same time
[22:51] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Moving the meeting to Thursday, same time
[22:51] <lool> I'm fine with that
[22:51] <StevenK> Tuesday UTC?
[22:51] <paulliu> ogra, yes, Japan time is only +1 of Taiwan Ttime.
[22:51] <NCommander> so three candidate ideas
[22:51] <lool> 9pm UTC
[22:52] <ogra_> move it earlier for the asian and au people ? or later ?
[22:52] <slangasek> lool: anything that you can find the code for in the public cdimage should be committed there first, anyway... :)
[22:52] <StevenK> Earlier is bad
[22:52] <StevenK> 7am is already early enough
[22:52] <NCommander> hrm
[22:52] <NCommander> Wait, today is thursday
[22:52] <NCommander> wow
[22:52] <NCommander> *coughs*
[22:52] <lool> slangasek: I wish :)
[22:53] <lool> NCommander: We are thursday
[22:53] <NCommander> lool, yeah, I realize this, but I was thinking we had three different candidates for time
[22:53] <paulliu> StevenK: How about one hour later.
[22:53] <paulliu> So it's 6AM for me. Better than 5AM.
[22:53] <StevenK> paulliu: Then it's 1am for ogra_ and lool
[22:53] <NCommander> I think that causes issues for the Europeans
[22:53] <paulliu> Ouch.
[22:53] <lool> I think there's no match for UTC+2 / UTC - 4 / UTC - 5 / UTC - 7 / paulliy
[22:54] <NCommander> I dunno, maybe its easier to move the team to one location
[22:54] <StevenK> +2, -4, -5, -7, +8, +10
[22:54] <ogra_> 1h later is 11pm for me
[22:54] <ogra_> err
[22:54] <ogra_> 12
[22:54] <ogra_> not 1am
[22:54] <StevenK> midnight-1am is a bit much, though
[22:54] <lool> ogra_: ends at 1am though
[22:54] <ogra_> i could live with that
[22:54]  * plars proposes that all countries eliminate DST and move to UTC
[22:54] <ogra_> indeed
[22:54] <NCommander> plars, +1
[22:54] <NCommander> Its a pity, ALaska used to do that, then they brought it back. Its the only flaw in that place :-/
[22:55] <lool> What about moving it /slightly/
[22:55] <StevenK> Then you get, "Why is sunrise at 10pm?"
[22:55]  * GrueMaster votes for Mark buying an island in the south pacific and moving the mobile team there.
[22:55] <NCommander> [idea] Moving the meeting ahead one hour to 22:00 UTC
[22:55] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Moving the meeting ahead one hour to 22:00 UTC
[22:55] <lool> e.g. half the time 8pm UTC then 10pm UTC
[22:56] <StevenK> Then we can't bai^Wtalk to the Europeans
[22:56] <lool> StevenK: We'd attend, we'd just be pained one time out of two
[22:56]  * ogra_ can easily live with a 12pm meeting
[22:56] <lool> And you would too
[22:56] <lool> ogra_: that's because you don't have the living 7am alarm clock
[22:56]  * NCommander notes that neither dyfet nor myself would be badly affected by that.
[22:56] <ogra_> every second week is even better
[22:56] <StevenK> Oh yuck, two meetings, one at 6am and 8am?
[22:57] <lool> StevenK: No, one week 6am the other 8am
[22:57] <dyfet> NCommander: true
[22:57] <ogra_> lool, alarm clock ?
[22:57] <lool> or one month, one month
[22:57] <ogra_> whats that ?
[22:57] <lool> ogra_: my son
[22:57] <ogra_> i know :)
[22:57]  * NCommander notes his dog used to do that.
[22:57] <StevenK> If we're going to do that, can we at least pick a better time?
[22:57] <lool> ogra_: I'll send him to germany for some time :)
[22:57] <NCommander> StevenK, we could flip it by 12 hours
[22:57] <ogra_> feel free, susie would be happy
[22:57] <NCommander> SO us states folks get boned
[22:57] <NCommander> I figure if we're going to bone people, we should be an equal opportunity boner.
[22:58] <lool> I'm fine with moving 12 hours
[22:58] <StevenK> Haha
[22:58] <lool> Ok; 2 minutes left in all timezones
[22:58] <ogra_> NCommander, you get all the other privileges alreaday ... like easy travelling
[22:58] <lool> I don't see why we should bother with NCommander's schedule anyway  ;-)
[22:58] <NCommander> lool, we have this room until tomorrow mornin
[22:59] <NCommander> lool, I have a schelude?
[22:59] <paulliu> OK. I'm ok with same time.
[22:59] <ogra_> NCommander, thats the point
[22:59] <NCommander> [vote] Keep the meeting where it is
[22:59] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Keep the meeting where it is.
[22:59] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[22:59] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[22:59] <ogra_> :)
[22:59] <NCommander> +1
[22:59] <MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:59] <StevenK> 0
[22:59] <plars> +1
[22:59] <MootBot> +1 received from plars. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:59] <GrueMaster> +1
[22:59] <MootBot> +1 received from GrueMaster. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[22:59] <lool> +1
[22:59] <MootBot> +1 received from lool. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[22:59] <paulliu> +1
[22:59] <MootBot> +1 received from paulliu. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[22:59] <lool> Just MOVE IT TO TUESDAYS; THANKS
[22:59] <NCommander> StevenK, its +0
[22:59] <StevenK> +0
[22:59] <MootBot> Abstention received from StevenK. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[22:59] <StevenK> Stupid bot
[22:59] <ogra_> 0
[22:59] <NCommander> Ok, I think that's everyone
[23:00] <lool> paulliu: You should be voting -1
[23:00] <NCommander> Or not
[23:00] <ogra_> +0
[23:00] <MootBot> Abstention received from ogra_. 5 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained.   No changing.
[23:01] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 5
[23:01] <lool> EVERYBODY OK WITH TUESDAYS?
[23:01] <lool> Sorry I'm all caps
[23:01] <plars> I'm fine with tuesday
[23:01] <NCommander> [vote] Moving the meeting to Tuesday, same time
[23:01] <ogra_>  /ME DOESNT CARE MUCH
[23:01] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Moving the meeting to Tuesday, same time.
[23:01] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[23:01] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[23:01] <lool> +1
[23:01] <MootBot> +1 received from lool. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[23:01] <plars> +1
[23:01] <MootBot> +1 received from plars. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[23:01] <GrueMaster> Tuesday or Thursday makes no diff for me.
[23:01] <ogra_> +0
[23:01] <MootBot> Abstention received from ogra_. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[23:01] <StevenK> +0
[23:01] <MootBot> Abstention received from StevenK. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[23:01] <paulliu> +1
[23:01] <GrueMaster> +0
[23:01] <MootBot> +1 received from paulliu. 3 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
[23:01] <MootBot> Abstention received from GrueMaster. 3 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 3
[23:01] <dyfet> +1
[23:01] <MootBot> +1 received from dyfet. 4 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 4
[23:01] <lool> Sounds good
[23:01] <lool> Ok; done deal
[23:01]  * NCommander isn't sure hot o vote
[23:01] <NCommander> lool, not quite :-)
[23:02] <lool> Result is clear
[23:02] <NCommander> It is?
[23:02] <StevenK> Unless NCommander votes -5 ?
[23:02] <NCommander> -5
[23:02] <lool> The only thing is that we'll probably be having meetings on #ubuntu-mobile as there's a meeting every two weeks
[23:02]  * StevenK smirks
[23:02] <ogra_> heh
[23:02] <NCommander> I didn't think that would work.
[23:02] <lool> NCommander: [endvote]
[23:02] <NCommander> +0
[23:02] <MootBot> Abstention received from NCommander. 4 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 4
[23:02] <NCommander> [endvote]
[23:02] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 4 abstained. Total: 4
[23:03] <lool> Ok; moving on
[23:03] <NCommander> Both votes are now tied.
[23:03] <lool> NCommander: We can check that offline for the actual IRC channel
[23:03] <NCommander> (for keeping, and for moving)
[23:03] <lool> Worst case #ubuntu-mobile-meeting
[23:03] <NCommander> [vote] Move the meeting time ahead one hour
[23:03] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Move the meeting time ahead one hour.
[23:03] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[23:03] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[23:03] <NCommander> +1
[23:03] <MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[23:03] <StevenK> +1
[23:03] <lool> NCommander: WTF?
[23:03] <MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[23:03] <NCommander> lool, that was one of the ideas submitted.
[23:03] <dyfet> +1
[23:03] <MootBot> +1 received from dyfet. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[23:04] <lool> We agreed to keep the current time?
[23:04] <paulliu> +0
[23:04] <MootBot> Abstention received from paulliu. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[23:04] <GrueMaster> -1
[23:04] <MootBot> -1 received from GrueMaster. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[23:04] <lool> How are you going to decide between the two votes?
[23:04] <plars> +0
[23:04] <MootBot> Abstention received from plars. 3 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[23:04] <ogra_> +12
[23:04] <plars> hah
[23:04] <NCommander> lool, you can vote on all of the, which ever has the highest amount of votes wins.
[23:04] <lool> StevenK: You're voting for one hour ahead??
[23:04] <ogra_> hmm, doesnt work
[23:04] <NCommander> lool, in case of tie, davidm chooses
[23:04] <lool> This doesn't make any sense
[23:04] <NCommander> [endvote]
[23:04] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 2 abstained. Total: 2
[23:04] <ogra_> -15
[23:05] <StevenK> I think that one is defeated
[23:05] <ogra_> hmm, doesnt work either
[23:05] <NCommander> lool, well, as it stands, your vote, and the keep the current vote tied.
[23:05] <NCommander> did we have any more candidates we wanted to vote on?
[23:05] <lool> They are unrelated
[23:05] <lool> One is about the day, the other about the hour
[23:05] <lool> We voted the hour, we voted the day, it's done?
[23:05] <NCommander> lool, no, that one would have been Thursday +1 hour to the time
[23:05]  * GrueMaster agrees with lool
[23:05] <NCommander> I think we're moving the meeting to Tuesday same time or the current time
[23:06] <NCommander> (I'll poke davidm about that)
[23:06] <lool> Yes; let's move on
[23:06] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to poke davidm_ on meeting times result
[23:06] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to poke davidm_ on meeting times result
[23:06] <NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
[23:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
[23:06] <ogra_> done
[23:06] <lool> We did that
[23:06] <NCommander> er wait
[23:06] <NCommander> [topic] Bug Workflow discussion
[23:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Workflow discussion
[23:06] <StevenK> No, we didn't?
[23:06] <NCommander> sorry, got the wrong one on the todo list
[23:06] <StevenK> We didnt give status of our specs?
[23:07] <ogra_> StevenK, in the beginning ... when you didnt have tea yet
[23:07] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/BugWorkflow
[23:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/BugWorkflow
[23:07] <NCommander> ogra, we did?
[23:07] <StevenK> Sure, but we didn't discuss every spec like we did last week
[23:07] <lool> plars: I wish Goals would state that we want to a) identify relevant bugs b) track their progress, c) don't miss important bugs etc.
[23:07] <plars> lool: ok, noted
[23:07] <ogra_> we're already 7min over
[23:07] <lool> (I can change it but since it's your work)
[23:08] <NCommander> ogra, we have th room until tomorrow ...
[23:08] <lool> ogra_: It doesn't matter, you don't mind midnight meetings :)
[23:08] <plars> lool: either way, np... I don't mine others editing, but it deserves group discussion I think
[23:08] <ogra_> NCommander, NOT MY LIVING ROOM, NO !
[23:08] <NCommander> ogra, I meant #ubuntu-meeting
[23:08] <ogra_> lool, indeed :)
[23:09] <lool> plars: I think we want to assign to canonical-mobile when it's clearly the responsability of the mobile team to fix, but we don't know whom
[23:09] <lool> plars: e.g. other teams might want to do that, and we might want to do that when we don't know yet
[23:09] <plars> lool: assign? or subscribe?
[23:09] <NCommander> I think assignment works better
[23:09] <lool> plars: assign
[23:09] <StevenK> I think we should move the IRC meeting to ogra_'s living room, and meet there every week
[23:09] <ogra_> yay
[23:09] <NCommander> StevenK, oh great, then my expense reports can be even MORE fun.
[23:09] <ogra_> i'll care for the beer
[23:09] <lool> plars: We don't want to assign all the time, there are bugs which are important to the mobile team, and bugs which are the responsabiilty of the mobile team to fix
[23:09] <plars> with subscribe, you still get notified.  The potential problem I see with assigned is that for many bug submitters, it has an implied meaning that someone is actively working on it
[23:10] <lool> plars: If we want to follow, or someone needs our advice on a bug > subscribe
[23:10] <NCommander> I think one thing we really want is that we don't want to lock out community contribution
[23:10] <NCommander> Rephrase
[23:10] <NCommander> Non-canonical
[23:10] <lool> plars: I think bugs should stay assigned to canonical-mobile too long; it should be a temporary state until we assign one person from the mobile team to it
[23:11] <NCommander> I personally think we should use ubuntu-mobile in place of canonical-mobile unless its something that must be handled by Canonical employees only.

[23:11] <lool> plars: I think it's a strong commitment, but I also think we want to be clearer about who owns what; if the team is just sub-ed, it's not clear we need to do any action, it might just be an issue affecting us which we're waiting a fix of
[23:12] <lool> NCommander: I actually have something else to offer on that subject, but i'd like to reach consensus on assign/subscribe
[23:12] <plars> lool: the other problem I see, is that it is difficult from a triage perspective to determine which bugs the mobile team is interested in being subscribed to, vs. which should be clearly assigned to the mobile team
[23:12] <plars> unless you have a clear way of determining that?
[23:13] <NCommander> What about subscribing bugs of interest, and tagging ones we might want to take action on?
[23:13] <lool> plars: So the way I see it, bugs just live against projects and we see them through various subscriptions; at some point, there are more important bugs for which we want an explicit tracking or for which we want to commit to fixing
[23:14] <lool> plars: Typically, milestoned bug, bugs blocking work, bugs relevant for implementation of a spec, bugs for which we committed to another team to do somethihng about
[23:14] <lool> etc.
[23:14] <lool> When triaging bugs, we focus on making sure the bug is in a good shape, and for serious bugs we take action to assign someone
[23:14] <plars> lool: ok, so who would look at a bug and say "yes, the mobile team needs to work on this" and make the assignment?  Is that something you would expect a bug submitter to do? triager? or a dev from the mobile team?
[23:15] <ogra_> triager and mobile team
[23:15] <ogra_> if the triager is able to judge
[23:15] <lool> plars: I think it could be other teams, the triager, and mobile team declaring "this needs our action"
[23:16] <lool> It's a strong commitment though
[23:16] <plars> even if it's something you expect a triager to do, then there needs to be a clear delineation of how to tell which bugs need to be subscribed, and which need to be assigned
[23:16] <lool> It's a good question, I find it hard to tell at which point you decide you need to raise it to the team action's list
[23:17] <plars> lool: which brings me back to the original idea of... subscribe, then someone who *knows* should determine that it needs to be assigned
[23:17] <StevenK> Subscribe in the first case, if we feel it's important enough, we'll take it?
[23:17] <lool> plars: Oh a two level process is fine with me
[23:17] <plars> I want to avoid someone opening a bug and randomly assigning it to the team
[23:17] <ogra_> StevenK, ++
[23:17] <lool> plars: I don't mind subscribe or subscribe + assign
[23:17] <GrueMaster> I'd say subscribe first, assign second.
[23:17] <lool> Seems we have good consensus here
[23:18] <plars> seems so, so moving on to team then?
[23:18] <lool> plars: The way I see it, during our meetings we'll look at all sub-ed + assigned bugs
[23:18] <plars> which team to use? canonical-moibile? ubuntu-mobile?
[23:18] <lool> For assigned bugs we'll ask individuals how they are making progress, or assign individuals
[23:18] <lool> For sub-ed bugs we'd discuss impact and progress
[23:18] <plars> and the other question is, do we distinguish between armel and unr bugs for team assignment/subscription?
[23:18] <lool> Teams: ubuntu-mobile is sadly conflated for historical reasons
[23:19] <lool> It served Ubuntu MID and has random people in it who don't really follow everything we do
[23:19] <lool> ubuntu-mobile is a bit broad: you wouldn't expect someone to pick arm and unr bugs
[23:19] <lool> So instead I propose we use more specific teams; ubuntu-unr (exists) and a new ubuntu-arm
[23:19] <plars> the third options is - do we need a new team(s)?  ...probably a bigger can of worms than I was hoping to open here
[23:19] <NCommander> lool, I thought ubuntu-arm existed
[23:19] <lool> There are examples of ubuntu-$arch teams already
[23:19] <ogra_> good idea
[23:19] <lool> NCommander: it does not
[23:20] <lool> Or didn't last time I checked
[23:20] <NCommander> lool, those teams exist more for kernel development
[23:20]  * NCommander is in all of them already...
[23:20] <lool> NCommander: they exist for porting
[23:20] <ogra_> if it does we'll call it ubuntu-leg :P
[23:20]  * NCommander wonders if ogra will ever run out of puns
[23:20] <ogra_> not me
[23:20] <StevenK> ubuntu-forearm
[23:20] <ajmitch> NCommander: not possible
[23:21] <lool> plars: using non-canonical teams is aimed at community participation, right?
[23:21] <lool> plars: I don't think we can expect community people to participate in exactly the same technical topics
[23:21] <plars> lool: yes, canonical and non-canonical inclusive
[23:21] <lool> So all I wish for is to use finer grained topics, and hence teams
[23:21] <lool> So ~ubuntu-unr, ~ubuntu-armish etc.
[23:21] <plars> although, I don't think that subscribing (or assigning) to a canonical team necessarily excludes broad participation either
[23:22] <lool> (not suggesting exact names here)
[23:22] <StevenK> ~ubuntu-amish ! \o/
[23:22] <lool> StevenK: Out!  :)
[23:22] <StevenK>   /part
[23:22] <lool> plars: Also, these teams could server QA contacts for source packages
[23:22] <dyfet> StevenK: and I was doing to suggest that was a bad choice ;)
[23:22] <lool> e.g. UNR packages, or say Moblin packages if we ever package that
[23:22] <ogra_> whats moblin ?
[23:22] <NCommander> MY EYES
[23:22]  * ogra_ hides
[23:23] <lool> armish was just an example; ~ubuntu-armel would be a nicer one for porting issues
[23:23] <NCommander> lool, that's a four letter word around here
[23:23] <ogra_> ++
[23:23] <lool> Do people agree with giner grained teams?
[23:23] <lool> *finer
[23:23] <lool> With ginger breaded teams
[23:23]  * GrueMaster yawns
[23:23]  * ogra_ agrees with giner ...
[23:23] <lool> Geez *finer
[23:23] <ogra_> not so sure about finer
[23:23]  * NCommander would perfer cinnamon
[23:23] <StevenK> Mmmmm, Ginger
[23:23] <NCommander> ok, I think we've gone too far with the puns.
[23:23] <playya_> for some parts in -mobile you need the hardware, which sometimes is not available for the community
[23:23] <lool> plars: Does that work with you?
[23:24] <plars> I am in favor of that, but we need to define what they are and create them if they do not already exist... as was already pointed out, ubuntu-mobile already exists, but doesn't make sense to use
[23:24] <lool> plars: Exactly
[23:24] <lool> Ups s/plars/playya
[23:24] <playya_> or to expensive to build some packages on it
[23:24] <lool> I think we want -unr, -armel for porting issues FTBFS, crashes etc.
[23:24] <lool> Perhaps we want one for imx51, but that seems a bit heavy
[23:25] <ogra_> playya_, but if youre in the team you can ask people with the HW for help
[23:25] <lool> plars: Perhaps we can keep canonical-mobile by default when we don't have a more specific team?
[23:25] <StevenK> +1 for -armel
[23:25] <playya_> many project have the problem that they start with a lot of hackers. but when everthing (newarly) works they are away
[23:25] <NCommander> +1 for -arm
[23:25] <ogra_> lool, no, not imx51 specific
[23:25] <lool> ogra_: Yeah
[23:25] <ogra_> +1 for -armel
[23:26] <lool> plars: Is this enough for a start?
[23:26] <playya_> ogra, yes. i started the freesmartphone.org team. but i don't have hardware which runs ubuntu and has a gsm modem
[23:26] <plars> lool: I think so, yes.  However I haven't looked into creating teams before, who would need to do that?
[23:26] <ogra_> playya_, right, but you have people in the team with such HW (i hope)
[23:26] <lool> plars: So we could say we regularly triage New bugs tagged armel, and new bugs against Ubuntu UNR packages
[23:26] <lool> plars: It's trivial, and one is already there
[23:27] <lool> plars: It's just two clicks away in LP
[23:27] <plars> ok
[23:27] <NCommander> who wants to take that?
[23:27] <lool> plars: Do you think you could update the wiki page with more specific workflows for armel bugs and UNR bugs?
[23:27] <plars> lool: yes, of course
[23:28] <lool> plars: What I'd recommend is using source package's QA contact or subscribe ubuntu-unr to UNR packages
[23:28] <lool> And for armel it's a bit different, the bugs aren't in a specific package but all over the place, so looking at the armel tag is probably the best thing to do
[23:28] <lool> We get these bugs directly usually (i.e. we are pinged about them :)
[23:29] <ogra_> or file them ourselves
[23:29] <lool> Is anything left to discuss on this topic; do other people have comment on plars' page?
[23:29] <plars> lool: usually, yes, but circumstances could change with that
[23:29] <plars> another question I had
[23:29] <plars> what about bugs that are against the image
[23:29] <plars> i.e. not a specific package
[23:29] <lool> plars: there's a project to file these bugs against
[23:29] <plars> lool: right, which is?
[23:30] <lool> plars: If it's an installation issue, I think they get reported against ubiquity or debian-installer (dependning on the image type)
[23:30] <lool> plars: Concerning bugs due to the cdimage software, against ubuntu-cdimage
[23:30] <lool> It's a separate project which represents issues in the images (image format, image name, scripts creating the images, missing files in the image etc.)
[23:30] <plars> ok, thought so... istr seeing one that didn't fit either of those, but I can't remember where it was
[23:31] <lool> The cdimage team deals with these
[23:31] <ogra_> file it against lool then
[23:31] <plars> hopefully things like that will be rare
[23:31] <plars> heh
[23:31] <NCommander> ubuntu-bug -p lool :-)
[23:31] <NCommander> Ok
[23:31] <lool> plars: Unfortunately, we're a team with a good load of cdimage bugs  :)  image additions, image formats etc. are all our league
[23:31] <NCommander> Can someone send me the sparknotes version of what we just discussed?
[23:32] <NCommander> Or better yet
[23:32] <NCommander> Update the wiki, and then ping me?
[23:32] <lool> NCommander: I'm telepathy-ing it to you, close your eyes
[23:32] <NCommander> Hrm, so that's the answer to everything.
[23:32] <plars> NCommander: basically, I have an action to update the wiki, and someone needs an action to create those teams... I can take both but may need to ping someone if I run into trouble creating the teams
[23:32] <NCommander> [action] plars to update the wiki and to create teams
[23:32] <MootBot> ACTION received:  plars to update the wiki and to create teams
[23:32] <NCommander> DOne
[23:32] <lool> plars: Happy to help
[23:32] <lool> plars: But really trivial don't bother
[23:32] <NCommander> [topic] Specification Review (finally)
[23:32] <MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review (finally)
[23:33] <plars> I'm a pessimist, lool says 2 clicks and I see 2 exposures where everything could blow up :)
[23:33] <lool> StevenK: can you make ~ubuntu-unr owned by canonical-mobile, davidm, or me?
[23:33] <StevenK> Sure, but wish?
[23:33] <StevenK> Er, which
[23:34] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-connman  (paullui)
[23:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-connman  (paullui)
[23:34] <lool> plars: I created ~ubuntu-armel :)
[23:35] <plars> lool: thanks
[23:35] <NCommander> didn't we decide on ~ubuntu-arm?
[23:35] <NCommander> :-)
[23:35] <plars> no
[23:35] <lool> StevenK: canonical-mobile?
[23:35] <StevenK> -amish
[23:35] <ogra_> didnt you say thats for kernel ?
[23:35] <GrueMaster> or ubuntu-limb?
[23:35] <StevenK> lool: Sure
[23:35]  * NCommander hits StevenK with a buggy
[23:35] <paulliu> NCommander: ok.
[23:35] <NCommander> ogra_, I'm just not saying anything at this point
[23:35] <lool> plars: owner is canonical-mobile; you can change details if you like
[23:35] <lool> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-armel
[23:35] <NCommander> paulliu, what's your status on this spec.
[23:35] <paulliu> NCommander: I just see it today.
[23:36] <NCommander> paulliu, Oh ...
[23:36] <NCommander> well
[23:36] <NCommander> That's easy :-)
[23:36] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-seeds  (StevenK)
[23:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-seeds  (StevenK)
[23:36] <lool> Drafter plars
[23:36] <lool> NCommander: eh two secs
[23:36] <StevenK> Um
[23:36]  * NCommander stops
[23:36] <lool> plars: (Did you complete drafting of connman?)
[23:37] <lool> Oh right it's approved, nevermind
[23:37] <lool> i'm slow
[23:37] <StevenK> In progress, waiting for LP changes, tasksel, livecd-rootfs, etc
[23:37] <plars> lool: to the extent I can, unless anyone wants to add anything
[23:37] <lool> If it's approved it's perfect!
[23:37] <lool> StevenK: Needs infrastructure or just your work?
[23:37] <NCommander> perfection doesn't exist. Its an illusion of the mind or an untenable goal
[23:37] <NCommander> YOur pick.
[23:38] <StevenK> lool: The latter, it's underway
[23:38] <dsas_> /q
[23:38] <NCommander> [action] mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain  (lool)
[23:38] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain  (lool)
[23:38] <dsas_> fail.
[23:39] <StevenK> NCommander: Fail. [topic]
[23:39] <NCommander> ah
[23:39] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain  (lool)
[23:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain  (lool)
[23:39]  * NCommander notes writing the minutes for this meeting is going to be a *explicative deleted*
[23:39] <lool> That's moved to adam
[23:39] <lool> Which is why it's need infrastructure
[23:40] <NCommander> lool, adam == infinity?
[23:40] <NCommander> Oh, ok
[23:40] <lool> Once we have qemu buildds we can change the toolchain
[23:40] <lool> We're going for qemu 0.9
[23:40] <NCommander> lool, what's our timeline looking like for that?
[23:40] <lool> As 0.10+ is unstable for him, and works for me :-(
[23:40] <lool> infinity should hopefully provide qemu buildds soon, but he didn't give any date
[23:40] <lool> I think we can hope for next week
[23:41] <NCommander> lool, please make sure we get a virtual porting box so I can move our apport retracer
[23:41] <NCommander> I don't want to loose that now that we have a stable release
[23:42] <NCommander> (if thats not possible I'll talk to you on other possibilities)
[23:42] <lool> NCommander: Could you bring that up with him directly?
[23:42] <lool> The qemu stuff is just interim really
[23:42] <lool> We're moving to real hardware ASAP
[23:42] <lool> Be it B2.5 or Marvell
[23:42] <NCommander> lool, right, but the porting box is the lowest priority thing we need in the DC
[23:42] <lool> What works and we have enough of and IS will take :)
[23:42] <NCommander> So I don't want it overlooked; I might be able to run apport-retracer outside the DC though (there is no technical limitation on that, but I'll have to get approval)
[23:43] <NCommander> ANyway
[23:43] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-qa-karmic-arm  (plars)
[23:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-qa-karmic-arm  (plars)
[23:43] <plars> not really time to (officially) start these two yet
[23:43] <plars> I've done some prep work for them, but that's about it at this point
[23:43] <NCommander> BTW, a quick annoucement: StevenK has implemented our first spec this cycle
[23:43] <ogra_> last week already
[23:43]  * StevenK wins
[23:43] <ogra_> no news
[23:44] <plars> yay
[23:44] <NCommander> [topic] karmic-freescale-desktop  (NCommander)
[23:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  karmic-freescale-desktop  (NCommander)
[23:44] <NCommander> er
[23:44] <NCommander> [topic] karmic-freescale-desktop  (ogra)
[23:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  karmic-freescale-desktop  (ogra)
[23:44] <ogra_> no kernel yet
[23:44] <ogra_> but ongoing
[23:44] <NCommander> [topic] karmic-marvell-desktop  (NCommander)
[23:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  karmic-marvell-desktop  (NCommander)
[23:44] <NCommander> No hardware yet
[23:44] <NCommander> But I did break down the TODO list on the wiki earlier today, I'll put these in the whiteboard and find victims^W volunteers.
[23:45] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-arm-karmic-easy-redboot-m... (ogra)
[23:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-easy-redboot-m... (ogra)
[23:45] <NCommander> ...
[23:45] <ogra_> approved ... not started
[23:45] <lool> We have /some/ hardware for marvell; just not very stable; fortunately we're getting more
[23:45] <ogra_> needs the new redboot source too
[23:45] <NCommander> ogra, feel free to ping me once that materializes
[23:45] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-wubi  (StevenK)
[23:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-wubi  (StevenK)
[23:46] <StevenK> Waiting for -seeds
[23:46]  * ogra_ wants to see mobile-unr-karmic-wubi-armel :)
[23:46] <StevenK> At this point
[23:46] <NCommander> ogra, with a windows ce installer?
[23:46] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-arm-karmic-softboot-loader  (NCommander)
[23:46] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-softboot-loader  (NCommander)
[23:46] <NCommander> Successful proof of concept
[23:46] <ogra_> indeed
[23:46] <NCommander> But I ran into an interesting hitch
[23:46] <NCommander> I have no ARM hardware that can kexec
[23:47] <ogra_> fix kexec
[23:47] <NCommander> On x86, I have hardware that can kexec, but breaks if you access /dev/fb0 before doing so (known bug in kexec upstream)
[23:47] <NCommander> ogra, ENOTAKERNELHACKER
[23:47] <ogra_> the hw you have needs to support it
[23:47] <NCommander> Well
[23:47] <NCommander> I found that the PS3 does support both
[23:47] <NCommander> I'm tryng to justify buying one for myself for ... work purposes
[23:47] <NCommander> :-)
[23:47] <NCommander> (I also tried on my SPARC (couldn't get /dev/fb0 to work), and on the ia64 (don't ask))
[23:48] <NCommander> I'm currently asking my loco to see if someone can loan me some PPC hardware shortterm for this
[23:48] <NCommander> Upstream is working on a curses based UI
[23:48] <NCommander> But its not expected to land for a few more weeks.
[23:48] <NCommander> I'm filing feature requests and helping them get a roadmap of what we need to implement to make this fly.
[23:49] <NCommander> I"ll skip the UNR specs
[23:49] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-application-res (pauliu)
[23:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-application-res (pauliu)
[23:50] <plars> looks like that one still needs drafting
[23:50] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-arm-karmic-offline-installer-gui (ogra)
[23:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-offline-installer-gui (ogra)
[23:50] <ogra_> approved, in the works ...
[23:50] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds (lool)
[23:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds (lool)
[23:50] <ogra_> waiting for thye LP team to rename the project
[23:51] <NCommander> lool, ?
[23:51] <ogra_> asleep ... nearl 1am :P
[23:51] <lool> That was deping on the qemu stuff
[23:51] <ogra_> +y
[23:51] <lool> I didn't make more progress on it this week
[23:51] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (lool)
[23:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (lool)
[23:51] <ogra_> heh
[23:52]  * ogra_ wasnt aware
[23:52] <NCommander> er
[23:52] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (ogra)
[23:52] <ogra_> drafting, needs more papaerwork i didnt manage yet
[23:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (ogra)
[23:52] <ogra_> will be approved before next meeting
[23:53] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (ogra)
[23:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (ogra)
[23:53] <ogra_> thats dyfet
[23:53] <dyfet> yep
[23:53] <NCommander> er
[23:53] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (dyfet)
[23:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (dyfet)
[23:53]  * GrueMaster hands NCommander a pair of glasses.
[23:53] <dyfet> It seems a "lubuntu movement" has also separately emerged...
[23:53] <NCommander> GrueMaster, I'm reading about how Michael Jackson died on the Chumby ...
[23:53]  * ogra_ hands NCommander https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~canonical-mobile?show=all
[23:54] <NCommander> ogra, I got it
[23:54] <ogra_> he dies on the chumby ? now thats news
[23:54] <NCommander> [topic] (mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting (plars)
[23:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  (mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting (plars)
[23:54] <ogra_> *died
[23:54] <NCommander> ogra, no, I pulled the news up
[23:54] <plars> just drafted, needs approval
[23:54] <NCommander> Farrah Fawcett also died
[23:55] <NCommander> [topic] Roadmap Review
[23:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  Roadmap Review
[23:55] <NCommander> [topic] ubuntu-mobile-voice-user-interface (dyfet)
[23:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-mobile-voice-user-interface (dyfet)
[23:55] <GrueMaster> Uh, what about mobile-unr-karmic-applications?
[23:56] <NCommander> Ack
[23:56] <dyfet> This has only a few items in karmic timeframe, and one of them have been picked up by the community
[23:56] <NCommander> I missed one
[23:56] <NCommander> sorry
[23:56] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-applications (GrueMaster)
[23:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-applications (GrueMaster)
[23:57] <GrueMaster> I've pinged a couple of people on OEM & DX to work with me on reviewing the current stack.  No response so far.
[23:57] <NCommander> For the specs that we're tracking on other teams
[23:57] <GrueMaster> Also, desktop is talking about switching to banshee from rythymbox.
[23:57] <NCommander> Who's been following those ?
[23:57] <NCommander> (i.e., who can report status)
[23:58] <NCommander> ok then ...
[23:58] <NCommander> [topic] Any other business
[23:58] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
[23:59] <NCommander> I got an annoucement
[23:59] <NCommander> We're in DIF now
[23:59]  * ogra_ too
[23:59] <NCommander> ogra, go for it
[23:59] <GrueMaster> DIF?
[23:59] <ogra_> i might go to linuxtag depending on how early i get up tomorrow and how i feel about it
[23:59] <StevenK> Debian Import Freeze'
[23:59] <ajmitch> debian import freeze, no more autosyncing
[23:59] <ogra_> that means i wont be at the call if i doo