[00:00] <ali1234> ...yeah
[00:00] <ali1234> the schematic is more confusing than it needs to be
[00:03] <dogmatic69_> HazRPG: arduino http://tinkerlog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/clone02_l.png
[00:04] <dogmatic69_> you can also hack your own one, http://tinkerlog.com/2008/01/07/arduino-on-a-prototype-board/
[00:04] <ali1234> (note lack of usb port lol)
[00:04] <ali1234> all these boards are basically the same though
[00:05] <ali1234> and the reason for that is the AVR chip is pretty much a whole computer in one chip
[00:05] <ali1234> you don't need anything else
[00:05] <dogmatic69_> its main function is the a->d and pwm
[00:05] <ali1234> all the "clever" stuff about arduino is done in the firmware and the IDE
[00:05] <Seeker`> What chip do pirates use for hobby electronics?
[00:06] <dogmatic69_> it is a little computer, a 4hz computer :D
[00:06] <ali1234> actually 4-24mhz
[00:06] <Seeker`> A V Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[00:06] <dogmatic69_> lmao
[00:06] <HazRPG> lol
[00:06] <ali1234> avr is the chip in most modchips too
[00:07] <ali1234> well, the old ones at least
[00:07] <dogmatic69_> they are good chips
[00:07] <ali1234> i dunno what they use thesedays
[00:07] <dogmatic69_> i hear push through is dead though
[00:07] <dogmatic69_> all smt chips soon
[00:07] <HazRPG> hmm, so best starting point for a newbie like me?
[00:07] <ali1234> you mean through hole?
[00:07]  * HazRPG having looked at everything and thinking they all look very similar
[00:08] <ali1234> avr is available in both package types
[00:08] <Seeker`> arduino is just plug-in and program
[00:10] <ali1234> the trouble with arduino is it's all lock-in
[00:10] <Seeker`> "lock-in"?
[00:10] <ali1234> they have their own programming language, their own communication protocol, their own bootloader method
[00:10] <ali1234> sure, most of it is open source
[00:10] <ali1234> but it just gets in the way
[00:11] <Seeker`> it depends what you want out of it
[00:11] <Seeker`> if you want to play with microcontrollers and basic electronics, they are all good
[00:13] <HazRPG> well I guess since I haven't done much, just getting to grips with it all for starters
[00:14] <HazRPG> however I would like to move on to making something similar to a HardSID
[00:14] <HazRPG> or even a CF reader for my C64
[00:14] <dogmatic69_> ali1234: obviously you not used it much, arduino runs c++
[00:14] <ali1234> C++ on a microcontroller ...
[00:14] <dogmatic69_> compiled..
[00:15] <HazRPG> I was going to say, I thought arduino used c++
[00:15] <ali1234> it's not "real" C++
[00:15] <dogmatic69_> why?
[00:15] <ali1234> it's their cut down version of it
[00:15] <dogmatic69_> you can import anything you like
[00:15] <dogmatic69_> just have 32k to work with
[00:15] <ali1234> the full C++ stdlib is about 100000 times too big to fit on an avr flash memory
[00:16] <dogmatic69_> exactly
[00:16] <ali1234> not to mention that 90% of it is useless for microcontroller programming
[00:16] <dogmatic69_> and you dont like it because they excluded that stuff?
[00:16] <ali1234> i don't like it because C++ is a bad tool for the job in the first place
[00:17] <dogmatic69_> java... :D
[00:17] <hamitron> :-o
[00:17] <HazRPG> ali1234: what is it that cypress uses?
[00:17] <ali1234> java on microcontrollers is slightly more sensible as long as you choose one that has hardware support for java
[00:17] <dogmatic69_> ali1234: you want assembler?
[00:18] <dogmatic69_> you can run just about anything that can compile on them
[00:18] <ali1234> HazRPG: all microcontrollers use machine code, it's up to you to choose whatever compiler you want to use (unless you have an arduino, then you are pretty much stuck with their compiler - lock-in)
[00:19] <dogmatic69_> ali1234: that is only if you use their boot loader, you can use another/your own etc
[00:19] <ali1234> sure. and then you have a generic AVR development board...
[00:19] <dogmatic69_> ye
[00:19] <ali1234> because the arduino hardware is not special in any way
[00:19] <hamitron> which is more fun ;)
[00:19] <dogmatic69_> its not
[00:20] <dogmatic69_> but its easy for noobs like me and HazRPG :D
[00:20] <dogmatic69_> its like runing ubuntu vs compiling linux kernals from source
[00:20] <ali1234> not really
[00:21] <hamitron> it is like comparing ubuntu with slackware ;)
[00:21] <ali1234> it's more like learning to driver in an automatic car
[00:21] <ali1234> when you want to drive a manual, you have tolearn all over again
[00:21] <dogmatic69_> its can still do most the other things, with some bloat to do the boring stuff
[00:21] <ali1234> should have just learned in a manual in the first palce
[00:21] <Seeker`> ali1234: yeah, but you'll have a knowledge of the electronics that fit round it
[00:22] <hamitron> \o/
[00:22] <hamitron> scrap all this programming and just use electronics
[00:22] <hamitron> ;)
[00:22] <dogmatic69_> ali1234: that is the same as saying if you want to learn how to drive a manual, you have to build the engine first
[00:22] <ali1234> believe it or not, you can learn the electronics without any fancy microcontrollers
[00:22] <dogmatic69_> its just a bunch of switches
[00:23] <HazRPG> pretty much :P
[00:23] <ali1234> not to mention that the electronics part is almost completely unrelated to programming a mcu
[00:23] <hamitron> I made a fuel and pit stop simulator for scalextric, using none programable stuff
[00:23] <Seeker`> ali1234: If you want to play with mcs, you need some electroics roundit. Something like arduino allows you to actually build something quickly and easily
[00:24] <Seeker`> its more than enough for beginners projects
[00:24] <dogmatic69_> and you can do the analogue to digital with resistors
[00:24] <ali1234> er...
[00:25] <hamitron> how? ;)
[00:26] <hamitron> arduino is the way to learn imo, but it is important to not get lazy and miss basic electronic stuff
[00:26] <hamitron> if you want to learn electronics anyway
[00:27] <hamitron> using flip-flops is something you should not miss
[00:27] <hamitron> ;)
[00:29] <PalaPad> http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/12/aristotle200712. < this is the guy I debating with tomorrow
[00:29] <PalaPad> Should be fun
[00:30] <hamitron> just look at him and say "who the fk are you?" ;)
[00:31] <ali1234> "u mad?"
[00:31] <PalaPad> Lol that is gonna go down well at Oxford Uni lol
[00:32] <hamitron> guess Hull Uni was different kinda class...
[00:32] <hamitron> ;)
[00:32] <PalaPad> lol
[00:32] <PalaPad> Wish I had thought to data mine a profile about him for the debate
[00:33] <hamitron> oh btw guys
[00:33] <PalaPad> Would have been funny to expose his life to the room
[00:33] <hamitron> I figured out the problem with my 3rd comp
[00:33] <hamitron> vibrations from my bass drum kept causing the gfx card to lose connection
[00:34] <PalaPad> lol
[00:34] <hamitron> didn't really think about it much before
[00:35] <hamitron> but it always had problems when I was shaking everything
[00:37] <HazRPG> hamitron: huh?
[00:37] <HazRPG> you just sit with a bass drum running all day long?
[00:37] <hamitron> it used to just restart on me
[00:37] <hamitron> no, only when I am drumming
[00:38] <hamitron> but I also have a habbit of tapping my foot to music near my comp too
[00:38] <HazRPG> hmm, if the arduino doesn't have a proper USB stack... does that mean I couldn't use it as a standalone USB device?
[00:38] <ali1234> correct
[00:38] <ali1234> unless that USB device happens to be one that works like a serial port
[00:39] <ali1234> so you can't use it to make a midi device, keyboard or other HID, usb storage, or anything else that works on usb...
[00:40] <HazRPG> well that's just pants!
[00:40] <hamitron> couldn't you program the outputs/inputs?
[00:40] <HazRPG> I'm guessing you could add a usb stack board to the arduino... surely...
[00:40] <ali1234> no, it doesn't have the right crystal for software USB
[00:40] <ali1234> yeah you could add an external USB chip...
[00:40] <ali1234> but that will cost more than the arduino board
[00:41] <ali1234> and be extremely difficult to work with
[00:42] <hamitron> ali1234: you know anything off the shelf I could use as a base for a phone type device?
[00:43] <hamitron> 300mhz or greater cpu
[00:43] <ali1234> "phone type"?
[00:43] <HazRPG> ali1234: does the cypress come with decent documentation?
[00:43] <ali1234> HazRPG: if you like reading TRMs...
[00:43] <hamitron> yeh, gsm, gps, display
[00:43] <ali1234> hamitron: an N900...
[00:44] <hamitron> that is boring
[00:44] <hamitron> :/
[00:44] <HazRPG> ali1234: I'm guessing I don't, since I haven't a clue what that is :P
[00:44] <hamitron> don't mind it been slightly larger, and modular
[00:45] <ali1234> hamitron: you get either a phone, or a phone dev board that costs 10x as much and is as big as a PC motherboard
[00:46] <hamitron> dev board would mean single for many years
[00:46] <hamitron> ;)
[00:47] <hamitron> there is/was some open phone project
[00:48] <hamitron> but felt like loads of broken links
[00:49] <HazRPG> hamitron: what is it your trying to do? Build your own mobile?
[00:50] <hamitron> sort of
[00:50] <hamitron> I don't want a phone as such
[00:50] <hamitron> but it would be nice to be portable
[00:50] <ali1234> there is a severe lack of good quality open source mobile phone UIs anyway
[00:50] <ali1234> if you want to make phone calls with open source software android is basically your only choice at this time
[00:51] <ali1234> everything else is either half finished or complete vapourware
[00:51] <hamitron> the gsm chips look interesting
[00:52] <HazRPG> doesn't it have something to do with the fact that its not easy to make a GSM compliant chip at home? Or would I be badly mistaken for thinking that
[00:52] <hamitron> the GSM chip I looked at was 60 quid
[00:52] <ali1234> "completely impossible" would be closer to the truth
[00:52] <hamitron> and that is before I consider anything else to make it usable
[00:53] <hamitron> maybe a display off a PSP ;)
[00:53] <HazRPG> hamitron: you could just rip one out of an old phone?
[00:53] <HazRPG> hamitron: I've not thrown away a single phone I've ever had...
[00:53] <hamitron> I still use my ngage :(
[00:54] <HazRPG> hamitron: I still own an ngage :P
[00:54] <ali1234> siiiiiiiide talkin
[00:54] <hamitron> qd is a brick atm
[00:54] <hamitron> :(
[00:54] <hamitron> really need to try flashing it sometime
[00:55] <HazRPG> ali1234: I found it more comfortable to use the ngage then most phones
[00:55] <hamitron> qd is better
[00:55] <HazRPG> the only annoying thing was if you wanted to use your two hands for anything
[00:55] <hamitron> qd is the best phone ever....
[00:55] <hamitron> ;/
[00:55] <hamitron> apart from the auto bricking feature
[00:55] <HazRPG> but the qd was basically a regular phone (in terms of how you held it)
[00:55] <hamitron> with game controls...
[00:56] <hamitron> brighter screen
[00:56] <hamitron> and you didn't have to take the thing apart to change game
[00:56] <hamitron> ;)
[00:56] <HazRPG> hamitron: I put all my games into one card :/
[00:56] <ali1234> lol... games... on removable media...
[00:56] <ali1234> how quaint
[00:56] <hamitron> also...
[00:57] <hamitron> normal ngage is too long
[00:57] <hamitron> if you wear tight jeans, it can poke you in nasty places
[00:57]  * HazRPG hates tight jeans
[00:57] <HazRPG> don't see the point in them
[00:58] <hamitron> not skin tight
[00:58] <hamitron> but not baggy
[00:58] <hamitron> ;/
[00:58] <HazRPG> oh
[00:58] <HazRPG> heh, pocket fail then
[00:58] <HazRPG> I always make sure the pockets are deep - because my wallets are usually huge
[00:58] <directhex> the ngage was a terrible gaming device. put the rose-tinted glasses away
[00:59] <HazRPG> plus I like to keep cigs, phone, wallet in my pockets
[00:59] <hamitron> last thing you need is an ngage giving you a good poking whilst you are trying to race a car whilst on a motorbike
[00:59] <hamitron> directhex: and? ;)
[00:59] <hamitron> I liked it as a phone
[00:59] <hamitron> and it is better than most phones for gaming
[01:00] <hamitron> you have proper gaming buttons
[01:00] <HazRPG> hamitron: didn't they take the FM radio out of the QD?
[01:00] <hamitron> ;/
[01:00] <hamitron> yes
[01:00] <HazRPG> hamitron: something I use to use a lot
[01:00] <hamitron> i take mp3
[01:00] <hamitron> :)
[01:00] <HazRPG> hamitron: that'll be the other reason I didn't like it then :P
[01:00] <directhex> hamitron: FSVO "proper"
[01:00] <hamitron> FSVO?
[01:01] <directhex> for small versions of
[01:01] <hamitron> errrr
[01:01] <hamitron> what you mean? ;)
[01:01] <directhex> i mean it was a crap game controller
[01:02] <hamitron> better than a keypad
[01:02] <hamitron> ;/
[01:02] <HazRPG> directhex: ... it was a D-Pad, I don't see how that was crap?
[01:02] <directhex> herpes is better than aids, but that doesn't make it desirable
[01:03] <hamitron> tbh, there has been no good gaming phone yet
[01:03] <hamitron> jsut the ngage is the best so far :/
[01:03] <directhex> HazRPG: entire encyclopardias have been written on the relative merits of different d-pad implementations. entire industries have sprung up around it. the ngage's was crap
[01:03] <hamitron> the qd has better D-pad
[01:03] <hamitron> had a seperate select button
[01:03] <hamitron> :)
[01:04] <Azelphur> yay I'm saved from my invalid power supply decision :P
[01:04] <directhex> Azelphur: ?
[01:04] <Azelphur> my friend has the correct power supply and is selling it to me for £5 :D
[01:04] <Azelphur> and it's a nice antec one too.
[01:04] <Azelphur> score :p
[01:04] <directhex> ooh, antec
[01:04] <hamitron> if sony weren't such cocks, I'd consider their new gaming phone
[01:04] <hamitron> :)
[01:05] <hamitron> ohhhhhhhhhh
[01:05] <directhex> i'm not remotely convinced by that either
[01:05] <hamitron> maybe I should make a mod for psp
[01:05] <hamitron> add gsm....
[01:05] <HazRPG> me either... I'm not convinced the "PSPhone" is going to be any good :/
[01:05] <ali1234> i think you should glue a nokia 3210 to a classic gameboy
[01:06] <HazRPG> ali1234: +1
[01:06] <ali1234> you would then have made the best gaming phone ever
[01:06] <HazRPG> ali1234: sounds like my theory on camera phones
[01:06] <directhex> honestly? right now, the best gaming phone is the iphone. they haven't badly attempted to glue one form factor into another - instead, developers have been making complete use of the new form factor
[01:06] <hamitron> ngage was better than gameboy ;/
[01:06] <ali1234> yup, all cameraphones are terrible
[01:06] <HazRPG> phone + camera + duct-tape = camera phone winner!
[01:07] <directhex> hamitron: except for the quality of the games, and the d-pad
[01:07] <hamitron> I prefer the d-pad on the ngage qd
[01:07] <hamitron> :/
[01:07] <directhex> then you have absolutely terrible taste ^_^
[01:07] <hamitron> quality of games I will give ya
[01:08] <directhex> there's a reason nintendo fiercely guard their d-pad patents, and have left the design pretty much unchanged since the famicom
[01:08] <hamitron> but to me, a standard handheld console is useless
[01:08] <directhex> hamitron: you're a special case though
[01:08] <hamitron> I want a device as a phone, with some hardcore gaming :)
[01:08] <hamitron> guess so
[01:09] <hamitron> also must have an open development platform
[01:09] <directhex> the thing is, the use-case for home consoles and portable consoles is different, which is why you don't just put console games on portables
[01:09] <directhex> that's what's killed the PSP
[01:09] <HazRPG> I hate the whole "cram everything into one device"
[01:09] <hamitron> me too HazRPG
[01:09] <HazRPG> because one part always suffers because of a result of another
[01:09] <directhex> and similarly, the use-case for a handheld console and a mobile phone game is different
[01:10] <hamitron> HazRPG: I would personally be willing to side talk on a netbook, if it was a netbook with a phone function :)
[01:10] <hamitron> directhex: yep
[01:10] <directhex> the ngage was absolutely terrible because a company with no experience with handheld gaming, nokia, attempted to staple a low-quality chinese knock-off of a gameboy colour into a mobile phone. things like the cartridge slot snafu show just how much lack of thought went into the device
[01:10] <hamitron> guess I don't want a phone with games, I want a handheld toy that functions as a phone
[01:11] <directhex> hamitron: sounds like n900 territory?
[01:11] <ali1234> yeah
[01:11] <hamitron> partly, yes
[01:11] <hamitron> :/
[01:11] <ali1234> except for that it has a keyboard that is useless for gaming, and a resistive screen that is also useless for gaming
[01:12] <hamitron> if the PSPhone is running android....
[01:12] <directhex> the iphone has become a serious gaming platform, as far as publishers are concerned. and that burns me up as a hardcore gamer, because the games going onto it are games for mobile phone users. snake, for the HD era.
[01:12] <hamitron> it may be an option
[01:12] <directhex> hamitron: it is
[01:12] <ali1234> jeff minter is making iphone games now
[01:12] <ali1234> he just ported llamatron
[01:12] <directhex> ali1234: good example
[01:12] <ali1234> it has hardcore mode
[01:12] <directhex> although jeff's always been a bit weird
[01:12] <directhex> he backed NUON
[01:13]  * hamitron wants a d-pad
[01:13] <hamitron> it HAS to have game controls
[01:13] <hamitron> :)
[01:13] <HazRPG> hamitron: D-Pad for the PC?
[01:13] <directhex> hamitron: so playstation phone for you, then
[01:13] <HazRPG> directhex: except sony are a-holes?
[01:13] <directhex> HazRPG: sony or bust, if you want a d-pad.
[01:14] <hamitron> if sony hadn't put me off getting a PS3, I would probably not be questioning it
[01:14] <ali1234> directhex: what do you want as a hardcore gamer?
[01:14] <HazRPG> directhex: lies, solder + mobile phone + snes controller is all one needs
[01:14] <hamitron> I wouldn't have an LG tv in here either
[01:14] <ali1234> i mean what's wrong with llamatron? tempest? etc
[01:15] <directhex> ali1234: ultimately, the type of game experience i enjoy isn't one offered by minter. and i say that having spent money on space giraffe.
[01:15] <ali1234> it doesn't get much more hardcore than that stuff imo
[01:15] <HazRPG> directhex: sure... there would be a wire sticking out of your phone...  but still, small price to pay. If your going to be gaming on the go, you'll be sat down anyways...
[01:16] <Seeker`> psp2 could be very interesting
[01:16] <hamitron> psp2 is hardcore, but no phone function :/
[01:16] <Seeker`> in terms of graphics power at least
[01:16] <directhex> ali1234: right. but ironically enough, that stuff is also highly casual. it's played in short bursts, it's completely ephemeral. it's more *skilled* than Fruit Ninja, but it appeals to the same sensations
[01:16] <HazRPG> hamitron: psp2 is the phone PSP dude
[01:16] <Seeker`> HazRPG: nope
[01:16] <hamitron> NGP then
[01:16] <hamitron> ;/
[01:16] <directhex> HazRPG: negative
[01:16] <HazRPG> is it not?
[01:16] <Seeker`> psp2 is the NGP
[01:17] <hamitron> if it had option to make calls, and cost under 300 quid, it would of been mine
[01:17] <ali1234> directhex: so... what is it that you do want?
[01:18] <hamitron> but I am still sulking with sony, so they can wait 10 years before I buy anything from them again
[01:18] <Seeker`> the NGP isn't meant to be an iphone replacement, its gonna be for gaming
[01:18] <directhex> ali1234: stories. adventures. experiences that are poorly suited to any mobile platform, really.
[01:18] <hamitron> Seeker`: a shame it doesn't ahve basic voice calls though
[01:19] <Azelphur> PWM is the capability for fans to be automatically controlled by the motherboard right?
[01:19] <Seeker`> hamitron: not really. I've got a phone for that.
[01:19] <hamitron> Seeker`: I can't carry so many devices!
[01:19] <Seeker`> Azelphur: context?
[01:19] <hamitron> lack of pockets  :/
[01:19] <Azelphur> Seeker`: computer fans
[01:19] <Azelphur> specifically case ones.
[01:19] <Seeker`> Azelphur: usually, yes
[01:19] <ali1234> seems to me that oldschool graphic adventures could work quite well on mobile
[01:19] <Seeker`> hamitron: get better clothes
[01:20] <Azelphur> so now that I understand that part, anyone know a reasonably cheap not crap 120mm fan with PWM? :D
[01:20] <directhex> ali1234: yes. but better with a touchscreen rather than d-pad rubbish. which is why you can get monkey island and broken sword on iphone
[01:20] <directhex> (and scummvm for android and webos)
[01:20] <Seeker`> ali1234: define "oldschool"?
[01:20] <directhex> Seeker`: 90s golden age of graphic adventures
[01:20] <ali1234> Seeker`: anything made before doom
[01:21] <hamitron> Seeker`: I like my leathers!
[01:21] <Seeker`> There isn't much hope of new consoles any time soon, and graphics chips are catching up fast
[01:21] <directhex> ali1234: or after. let's not ignore full throttle plz.
[01:22] <hamitron> keys, money, wallet, phone.... all need seperate pockets
[01:22] <HazRPG> personally, I feel that the whole reason consoles are so popular is the "insert cartridge/disc and play" feature... why doesn't the PC have the same ability (other than the fact that no two hardware is exactly the same)
[01:22] <Seeker`> nah
[01:22] <Seeker`> HazRPG: because thats not what PCs are designed for :P
[01:23] <directhex> HazRPG: because it's hard.
[01:23] <hamitron> I am surprised the idea of making a game into a live cd hasn't taken off
[01:23] <hamitron> with a limited hardware list
[01:23] <directhex> hamitron: bundled with drivers for a billion combinations?
[01:23] <Seeker`> console games are designed for very specific hardware in very specific conditions
[01:23] <HazRPG> Seeker`: yeah, but if someone made an "insert game disc" application - it would rock, place in your game and away you go!
[01:23] <directhex> hamitron: pc gaming is already a niche. gotta maximize your market.
[01:23] <Seeker`> and they are heavily optimized for that hardware
[01:24] <ali1234> i remember when PC games were actually different from console games
[01:24] <ali1234> now they're all the same
[01:24] <hamitron> directhex: I was thinking of an open source console type thing
[01:24] <hamitron> :)
[01:24] <ali1234> except the console version works better, and the PC version has mods
[01:24] <directhex> ali1234: games cost tens of millions to make. how many units need to ship to break even?
[01:25] <ali1234> some games cost tens of millions
[01:25] <directhex> ali1234: i don't blame companies for making cross-platform games, to increase the likelihood of profit
[01:25] <HazRPG> ali1234: I would disagree, UT3 for the PS3 was sooooo much buggier than the PC version
[01:25]  * hamitron neither
[01:25] <hamitron> I never did get my UT3 linux client!
[01:25] <hamitron> :(
[01:25] <directhex> hamitron: yeah, that's disappointing when it's been ported
[01:25] <ali1234> the problem is that a lot of cross platform games sit in the ugly middle ground
[01:26] <directhex> ali1234: it takes a little more time & effort to really work the platforms individually for a cross-platform game. dragon age is a good example, the pc version has completely pc-centric controls instead of being a straight port
[01:26] <HazRPG> ali1234: how so?
[01:26] <ali1234> for example, se every cross platform FPS game ever made
[01:26] <directhex> most don't bother. deadlines, etc
[01:27] <hamitron> I've lost interest in PC gaming since F1 2010
[01:27] <hamitron> :/
[01:27] <directhex> i have every platform. i pick & choose where to get my games
[01:27] <hamitron> to buy a game and find bugs will be fixed in F1 2011 is annoying
[01:27] <directhex> generally, i favour PC for first person, console for third person
[01:27] <HazRPG> hamitron: I fail to see that, my sonic games have never been better on my PC :)
[01:28] <ali1234> "third person" is now a category of game?
[01:28] <directhex> ali1234: it's distinct enough in how it "feels"
[01:28] <directhex> gears of war is not unreal tournament
[01:28] <HazRPG> hamitron: especially thanks to my bluetooth dongle and my PS3 controller interacting together with QtSixA
[01:28] <hamitron> HazRPG: I feel ripped off
[01:29] <ali1234> i remember when not all games were about space marines too
[01:29] <hamitron> I paid for F1 2010, not to fund the release of F1 2011
[01:29] <directhex> ali1234: doom was about space marines!
[01:29] <HazRPG> ali1234: third person always was a genre... expect they called them "adventure/platform" games
[01:29] <ali1234> yeah
[01:30] <HazRPG> hamitron: heh I can understand that
[01:30] <ali1234> directhex: ID software basically "solved" the problem of PC gaming with doom, and 90% of all PC games since are just clones of it
[01:31] <Seeker`> hamitron: what was wrong with F1 2010?
[01:31] <directhex> ultimately, i have 27 years of gaming history on my shelves, accumulated over the past 22 years. and i really feel rose-tinted glasses are overrated. modern gaming is brilliant.
[01:31] <hamitron> Seeker`: a long list of things
[01:31] <directhex> 2011 is a brilliant year to be a gamer. better than 2010, which was better than 2009, etc
[01:31] <ali1234> at least doom and quake 1 had a somewhat unique setting, unlike all the following games which just go back to "weird mutant aliens"
[01:31] <hamitron> most annoying to me is the pit stop issue
[01:32] <HazRPG> you know, thing I like about ID software is, most of their software gets released as multiplatform (e.g. works on linux), shame more companies don't do the same
[01:32] <ali1234> or even worse, "red space marine vs blue space marine"
[01:32] <directhex> the current console generation has given us completely new and fantastic experiences. dead rising? assassin's creed? you could *never* have done those games on the previous generation of kit
[01:32] <ali1234> assassin's creed is completely boring
[01:32] <ali1234> it's GTA without cars
[01:33] <hamitron> no cars! :(
[01:33] <ali1234> there is the odd horse and carriage, but i don't think you can steal them
[01:33] <hamitron> shoot the horses?
[01:33] <directhex> not in AC1
[01:33] <directhex> AC1 was really a tech demo
[01:33] <ali1234> well that's the only one i played
[01:33] <ali1234> i heard 2 was just more of the same
[01:34] <directhex> AC2 addressed every major criticism against the game
[01:34] <hamitron> first versions should NOT be a tech demo :/
[01:34] <Seeker`> hamitron: why not?
[01:34] <Seeker`> Is'nt that what crysis was?
[01:34] <directhex> hamitron: less priase for iD then. quake 3 was totally a sales pitch for the engine ;)
[01:34] <Seeker`> OR Portal
[01:34] <Seeker`> and Portal was a damn cool game
[01:34] <ali1234> portal was actually good
[01:34] <HazRPG> AC to me felt like I was playing Prince of Persia... except in 3D... with extra gimmicks
[01:35] <hamitron> if you buy a game, it shouldn't be half assed
[01:35] <ali1234> only about 20% as good as any random zelda game though
[01:35] <directhex> hamitron: they already did PoP in 3d. with the critically acclaimed Sands of Time
[01:35] <directhex> the jewel of the last generation
[01:35] <Seeker`> I've just started playing AC1 this evening, and I quite like it
[01:35] <directhex> ali1234: zelda as a franchise is tired
[01:36] <ali1234> it's nowhere near as tired as "space marines in space"
[01:36] <directhex> perhaps
[01:36] <directhex> but at least those have been improving and evolving
[01:36] <Seeker`> anyone played mass effect?
[01:36] <ali1234> evolving isn't quite how i would describe it
[01:36] <directhex> i just gave up on twilight princess. it was just bad compared to other zelda-esque games like okami
[01:36] <Seeker`> playing through that for the first time, and thats good too
[01:36] <directhex> Seeker`: finished both.
[01:36] <ali1234> twilight princess was bad, i will give you that
[01:36] <ali1234> i gave up on it too
[01:36] <HazRPG> I can sum up most games over the recent years as ... "War! HUH! What is it good for!? Absolutely nothing! Say it again now..."
[01:37] <ali1234> but windwaker was probably the best of the rest
[01:37] <shauno> don't think I've played console since n64 :/
[01:37] <Seeker`> HazRPG: dont play them then
[01:37] <directhex> let me frame my historic feelings about zelda: http://apebox.org/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/miscellaneous-junk/zelda3.jpg
[01:37] <HazRPG> directhex: yeah, I didn't like the new PoP's... should have left him as a 2D game
[01:37] <ali1234> but the problem with TP was that they put in too much of the things that make other games suck these days... like quick time events
[01:37] <directhex> HazRPG: i loved SoT.
[01:38] <directhex> ali1234: shenmue has a lot to answer for
[01:38] <ali1234> also being a wolf sucked
[01:38] <ali1234> i mean it *really* sucked
[01:38] <directhex> being a wolf is awesome in okami though. yay okami.
[01:38] <hamitron> brb
[01:38] <ali1234> the rest of the game was fine
[01:39] <HazRPG> Seeker`: I don't!  HIGH FIVE!
[01:40] <hamitron> bk
[01:40] <hamitron> it went quiet
[01:40] <directhex> HazRPG: i want to care about my protagonist and the world in which they engage. i want stories of fantastic deeds and faraway places. ultimately, i don't much enjoy multiplayer, and i don't like "realistic" war games
[01:40] <hamitron> :/
[01:41] <hamitron> to me, multiplayer if everything
[01:41] <hamitron> :)
[01:41] <hamitron> is*
[01:41] <directhex> because who cares? "terrorists win", big whoop. now what?
[01:41] <HazRPG> directhex: agreed - thus my name ;)
[01:41] <ali1234> i quite like properly realistic FPS games... that's about the only type i can play
[01:41] <ali1234> by properly realistic i mean the type where 1 shot kills you and anything other than camping is suicide
[01:41] <hamitron> my greatest annoyance is these games you can't lose
[01:42] <hamitron> like WoW.... if you could loot players you killed, it would be cool :)
[01:42] <HazRPG> hamitron: you mean the "respawn" factor? Or the "vision blurred = hide and recover HP" factor? (both annoy me)
[01:43] <hamitron> yeh
[01:43] <hamitron> just the risk of losing everything and having to start again
[01:43] <hamitron> mistakes should cost you
[01:43] <HazRPG> yeah exactly!
[01:43] <HazRPG> like in an RPG, where you haven't saved for a while...
[01:44] <HazRPG> when you die... your dead!
[01:44] <hamitron> I never save.... unless I am closing the game
[01:44] <HazRPG> start again
[01:44] <HazRPG> hamitron: adds more excitement does it ;)
[01:44] <hamitron> hell yeh
[01:44] <directhex> hamitron: you'd like steel battalion's hard mode ;)
[01:44] <HazRPG> shauno: wow really n64 was your last ever console of play?
[01:44] <directhex> hamitron: if you died, it erased your save
[01:44] <hamitron> what fun is a racing game, if you are allowed "flashbacks" wheny ou crash?
[01:44] <ali1234> when i play J-RPGs i always meticulously make individual saves at every point, and then *never* use them
[01:44] <HazRPG> directhex: rofl!
[01:45] <hamitron> directhex: :D
[01:45] <HazRPG> ali1234: ha, I do that :P
[01:45] <hamitron> that is how I play
[01:45] <hamitron> :)
[01:45] <directhex> that game also came with a giant mech controller, the size of three xboxes
[01:45] <directhex> with 40 odd buttons on it
[01:45] <hamitron> but the "never losing" ruins MMO
[01:45] <shauno> HazRPG: just haven't seen anything that grabbed my interesting in quite some time
[01:46] <shauno> did pick up a gp2x for the emulators tho :)
[01:46] <HazRPG> shauno: just out of interest, what sort of thing do you like playing?
[01:46] <hamitron> I suppose the kiddies would not be happy with WoW if when they died, someone stole the cloth off their backs
[01:46] <HazRPG> shauno: nice!
[01:46] <directhex> i'm churning through dead space 2 right now, alongside mario galaxy (depending on mood)
[01:46] <directhex> then will move on to the latest assassin's creed brotherhood DLC.
[01:47] <HazRPG> hamitron: would be amusing though :P - I mean other MMO's actually do it, why shouldn't WoW?
[01:47] <hamitron> like eve online? ;)
[01:47] <directhex> there is a death penalty in WoW
[01:47] <directhex> not a big one, but it's there
[01:47] <hamitron> WoW hardcore mode, allowing looting
[01:47] <HazRPG> you mean the "haha you'll die easier next time"?
[01:48] <hamitron> Blizard, pay me now
[01:48] <hamitron> ;)
[01:48] <HazRPG> aka "Res Sickness"
[01:48] <hamitron> ohhhh
[01:48] <shauno> it's mostly the time lost in wow.  durability loss is pretty token now
[01:49] <HazRPG> that's more of a nuisance than anything, It means people can stay near your corpse/spirit healer and kill you quickly time after time
[01:49] <ali1234> lol, resurrect you just to kill you again?
[01:49] <directhex> MMOs make poor RPGs
[01:49] <shauno> you only get rez sickness if you can't find/reach your corpse.  it's a fringe case most the time
[01:49] <HazRPG> ali1234: yup... happened to me before, many a times
[01:50] <directhex> "kill ten wurbleburbles, and bring me back their skulls" is not roleplaying
[01:50] <hamitron> grinding ;)
[01:50] <HazRPG> directhex: it has gotten better recently
[01:50] <hamitron> eve online would be cool, if there were no alts
[01:50] <directhex> HazRPG: okay, 8 wurbleburbles
[01:50] <HazRPG> directhex: there's a quest in cata now that you become an NPC on a horse
[01:51] <ali1234> hamitron: so true
[01:51] <Seeker`> WoW is good.    ZOMG I AM ENTITLED TO RAIDW ITH YOU!"
[01:52] <HazRPG> I liked WoW too... until I realised it was just the same thing over and over and over again
[01:52] <hamitron> the monthly cost put me off mostly
[01:53] <HazRPG> hamitron: Runes of Magic will suit you, pretty much a WoW clone
[01:53] <hamitron> Knight Online is too
[01:53] <hamitron> :)
[01:53] <shauno> I found the cost the least of the worries.  I mean, 8eur a month .. I smoke that in a day
[01:53] <HazRPG> shauno: same :P
[01:53]  * hamitron is "careful" with money
[01:53] <HazRPG> speaking of smokes, I'm out ... so need to go buy some!
[01:53] <hamitron> at the time I was a full time student and only £15 per week to live off
[01:54] <shauno> other than smoking, I'm not silly with my money.  but I don't let fear of it own me
[01:54] <HazRPG> hamitron: y'ouch!
[01:54] <HazRPG> shauno: same, I try to spend wisely
[01:54] <hamitron> worked out about £10 for food
[01:54] <hamitron> :)
[01:54] <HazRPG> anyways, gonna go on an errand, brb
[01:55] <hamitron> laters HazRPG
[01:55] <hamitron> :)
[01:55] <Seeker`> £8/mo is pretty good fot the number of hours of entertainmen
[01:55] <hamitron> £8 is
[01:55] <Seeker`> 1 trip to the cinema, or as much playtime as you want
[01:55] <hamitron> but I didn't have the money to spend on it ;/
[01:55] <hamitron> so i got Guild Wars
[01:55] <hamitron> :)
[01:56] <HazRPG> actually bbl, would probably be a better use of words/characters
[01:56] <hamitron> now I just feel like quiting all off the shelf stuff
[01:57] <hamitron> just seeing what I can do with my mind
[01:57] <shauno> interesting, that paints you as much younger than I'd pictured
[01:57] <hamitron> you picture me as an old fart?
[01:57] <hamitron> ;/
[01:58] <shauno> I'm not sure how old qualifies as fart, but certainly older than the last 10 minutes betray
[01:58] <hamitron> I'm only 28
[01:59]  * hamitron looks at some open circuit designs
[02:02] <hamitron> with a few years tinkering, must be amazing what can be done
[02:03] <HazRPG> back
[02:03] <hamitron> ali1234: what would you recommand, like the arduino, but with a faster clock?
[02:03]  * HazRPG sparks up
[02:03] <ali1234> how much faster?
[02:04] <hamitron> say 300mhz+
[02:04] <ali1234> a beagleboard
[02:04] <HazRPG> heh I was going to say ARM
[02:04] <HazRPG> seems that's what a beagleboard has in it
[02:05] <ali1234> or a spartan3 and implement whateverit is that needs 300mhz in hardware
[02:05] <hamitron> any x86 cpu boards?
[02:05] <ali1234> yeah but you don't want them
[02:06] <hamitron> just wondering, put a whole system on a FPGA
[02:06] <hamitron> few other bits
[02:06] <hamitron> wham bam
[02:06] <hamitron> new toy
[02:06] <hamitron> ;)
[02:10] <ali1234> there is AVR32 as well but those are a bit esoteric
[02:11] <HazRPG> ali1234: hmm, you should know... what's the green coating found on PCB's called?
[02:11] <ali1234> lacquer?
[02:12] <HazRPG> because I'm guessing the green stuff is a coating to stop the copper oxidising
[02:12] <ali1234> it's also part of the soldering process
[02:12] <HazRPG> hmm, how so?
[02:13] <ali1234> well they put the green stuff on before the components
[02:13] <ali1234> and so the solder only sticks to the exposed pads, not the whole traces
[02:14] <ali1234> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_soldering
[02:14] <ali1234> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder_mask
[02:26] <HazRPG> hmm, I thought flux was used for soldering
[02:33] <HazRPG> hmm, shows what I know about soldering...
[02:34] <HazRPG> never heard of tinning before
[02:34] <hamitron> there are different methods
[02:35] <hamitron> nn all o/
[02:35] <HazRPG> hamitron: night dude
[03:09] <HazRPG> haha, this seems like a great invention: http://www.youtube.com/user/CuriousInventor#p/u/30/ue6WYqYc81k
[03:09] <HazRPG> might have to make my mum one for her dogs :P
[03:18] <HazRPG> ooo, ali1234 you might like this: http://www.youtube.com/user/CuriousInventor#p/u/27/gXWCm-HmTq4
[05:40] <HazRPG> Hmm... should /usr/lib/indicator-applet/indicator-applet really be using 337M of RAM?
[05:40] <HazRPG> it says here 1166M of virtual memory for that same thread >_<
[05:57] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: could be related to bug 684599
[06:02] <HazRPG> could be
[06:08] <MartijnVdS> It's one of those black hole bugs
[06:08] <MartijnVdS> it hasn't been fixed, but people aren't working on it
[06:08] <MartijnVdS> even though it eats lots of memory
[06:12] <HazRPG> well that's no good lol
[06:12] <MartijnVdS> It's how lp works, sadly
[06:13] <HazRPG> what, that bugs don't get fixed? lol
[06:13] <MartijnVdS> no, that they get lost in a tsunami (ha) of other bugs
[06:13] <HazRPG> ah heh
[06:24] <Myrtti> meh.
[06:54] <HazRPG> haha love this game - good memories with sonic triple trouble of me and my uncle spending a whole day to try to finish the game :P
[07:17] <AlanBell> morning all
[07:18]  * AlanBell is on the reserve tank of internet today
[07:21] <knightwise> morning everyone :)
[07:38] <knightwise> how is everyone today
[07:38] <knightwise> just a couple more days to the launch of 11.4
[07:39] <PalaPad> Waking up, just showered and shaved, will dress and head to breakfast, hotel life sucks
[07:40] <knightwise> PalaPad: at least you dont have to cook your own brekkie
[07:40] <knightwise> where RU at for the moment ?
[07:40] <PalaPad> Oxford
[07:41] <PalaPad> And yeah looking forward to Brel IRS
[07:41] <PalaPad> Brekkies
[07:41] <PalaPad> Stupid autocorrect
[07:41] <knightwise> Android Phone ?
[07:41] <PalaPad> iPad
[07:43] <PalaPad> Ok gonna finish dressing and head for breakfast, back in 30ish
[07:50] <daubers> Morning
[07:52] <knightwise> morning daubers
[07:52] <knightwise> how are you today
[07:56] <MooDoo> hello
[07:57] <daubers> knightwise: nearly awake
[07:57] <daubers> started having some success with c++ last night (finally!)
[08:01] <knightwise> aah , thats always good to hear
[08:01] <knightwise> you programming some stuff ?
[08:01] <daubers> Reworking a few old programs I wrote in C++ to learn the language
[08:01]  * knightwise released the podcatching script he made with the help of the #ubuntu-uk channel to the interwebs
[08:01] <knightwise> cool
[08:05] <AlanBell> final call for the quiz night date
[08:06] <AlanBell> http://doodle.com/eucwzx2qdiiiqs5p
[08:13] <PalaPad> Meh continental breakfast :(
[08:14] <knightwise> hey AlanBell
[08:26] <knightwise> djeez
[08:26] <knightwise> Japan thing is NOT looking good
[08:26] <knightwise> looks like reactor 2 is exposed ?
[08:26] <DJones> Cock-a-doodle-doo
[08:28] <knightwise> hey DJones
[08:28] <DJones> hi knightwise
[08:31] <knightwise> how are you today
[08:34] <danfish> DJones:Please keep that cockerel quiet - it just woke me up :p
[08:35] <DJones> knightwise: Not bad, awake too early listening to the dawn chorus
[08:35] <DJones> danfish: COCK-A-DOODLE-DOOOOOOOO
[08:36] <DJones> I think I'm going to have to be sneaky & pinch AlanBell's chickens
[08:37]  * knightwise wish i didn't visualise that remark
[08:39] <czajkowski> Aloha
[08:39] <knightwise> hey czajkowski
[08:40] <knightwise> how are you
[08:41] <andylockran> howdy all
[08:42] <andylockran> quick question - got a server with a loadavg always over 1.  iowait is negligible, and so is cpu usage - what other factors will be contibutary to the load?
[08:42] <DJones> andylockran: That almost sounds like a homework question :)
[08:44] <Myrtti> "Java"
[08:45] <danfish> andylockran: the national debt ;)
[08:45] <andylockran> DJones: indeed it does :p
[08:46] <andylockran> random that load on this myth backend never drops below 0.8
[08:48] <DJones> Ugh, no wonder my computer is so slow, 20+ MS updates to install
[08:48] <MartijnVdS> DJones: ie9 )
[08:48] <MartijnVdS> :)
[08:48] <DJones> MartijnVdS: Nope, just "regular" security updates
[08:50] <danfish> the only secure XP system is one that's powered off
[08:50] <DJones> danfish: Wake on lan, has to be unplugged as well :)
[08:51]  * czajkowski has an itchy nose, this does not bode well
[08:51] <dwatkins> hiya
[08:53] <danfish> czajkowski: itchynoseitis. nasty :(
[08:53] <czajkowski> indeed
[08:54] <DJones> Where did I leave that pepper
[08:54] <danfish> DJones: v true. Let's encase in concrete to be certain
[08:54] <czajkowski> I've no davmor2 to stab
[08:54] <czajkowski> :(
[08:54]  * czajkowski stabs MooDoo
[08:54] <DJones> danfish: And drop it into the bottom of the ocean or into a volcano
[08:55] <andylockran> oops
[08:55] <andylockran>  /wc by accident
[08:55]  * knightwise suggests czajkowski could dip her nose in liquid nitrogen
[08:56] <czajkowski> eh no
[08:56] <danfish> andylockran: what does powertop show on that mythbox?
[09:02] <hoover> mornin all
[09:03] <popey> morning
[09:07]  * popey tops up AlanBell's internets
[09:07]  * AlanBell thanks popey for the additional packet of packets
[09:08] <popey> you're welcome to come over to chez popey and use mine
[09:08] <popey> (I am at home today)
[09:08] <andylockran> danfish: need to recompile kernel to get powertop working :s
[09:08] <andylockran> (gentoo)
[09:08] <AlanBell> thanks, but I think I will gatecrash TheOpenSourcerer's place soon
[09:08] <popey> ok
[09:09] <daubers> AlanBell: Why no interwebs?
[09:09] <AlanBell> dunno
[09:09] <AlanBell> adsl syncs, gets a connection speed, passes no packets
[09:09] <daubers> .... nice
[09:09] <popey> is someone standing on the line?
[09:09] <popey> morning kazade
[09:09] <AlanBell> I reported the fault and I should get a phone call about it within 48 hours apparently
[09:10] <AlanBell> last time this happened it resolved itself after 24 hours or so
[09:10] <kazade> o/ popey
[09:40] <daubers> Time for tea!
[09:41] <Daviey> AlanBell, Did you turn it off and on again? :)
[09:41] <bigcalm> Always time for tea :)
[09:43] <daubers> Nooooo!!! No clean mugs :(
[09:43] <MooDoo> daubers: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
[09:44] <nigelb> Daviey: standard practice :p
[09:49] <Daviey> :)
[09:49] <Daviey> Does any here have mysql server install on Maverick?
[09:49] <Daviey> anyone*
[09:49] <Daviey> (Desktop)
[09:49]  * Daviey wakes up.
[09:50] <Mez> Daviey: I do.
[09:50] <kazade> Daviey, me too
[09:50] <Mez> Daviey: why?
[09:50] <Daviey> Okay, great!  When you login, GDM greeter - do you see "MySql Server" as a login option?
[09:51] <Mez> Daviey: no.
[09:51] <Daviey> Innnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting.
[09:51] <Mez> Daviey: do this:-
[09:51] <Mez> getent passwd | grep mysql
[09:51] <Daviey> Natty does, and i cannot work out why :)
[09:51] <bigcalm> Morning kids :)
[09:51] <Mez> and paste the output :)
[09:51] <Daviey> Mez, I tried chaning the password from ! to *
[09:52] <Daviey> changing
[09:52] <Mez> Daviey: I'm after the UUID
[09:52] <Daviey> in /etc/shadow
[09:52] <Mez> UID *
[09:52] <Daviey> mysql:x:117:128::/nonexistent:/bin/false
[09:52] <Mez> hmm... Shouldn't be showing then
[09:52] <Daviey> exactly!
[09:52] <Daviey> I'm scratching my head :)
[09:54] <nigelb> Daviey: heh
[09:54] <nigelb> Daviey: nice bug :P
[09:55] <Mez> Daviey: /etc/gdm/gdm.schemas - find the <key>greeter/Exclude</key> and add the user in there.
[09:56] <mungojerry> Mez: nice tip
[09:57] <Daviey> I'm not convinced that is the issue
[09:57] <Mez> or change greeter/IncludeAll to false, and then just add the users you want to greeter/Include
[09:57] <mungojerry> does anyone know if https://twitter.com/sabdfl is really Mark S. twitter account?
[09:58] <nigelb> yeah, I think it is
[09:58] <mungojerry> i think he only used it when he was drunk during 2008 & 2009 then
[09:58] <Daviey> Mez, can you, grep -i nobody /usr/share/gdm/gdm.schemas ?
[09:59] <Mez> grep: /usr/share/gdm/gdm.schemas: No such file or directory
[09:59] <Daviey> Mez, okay, looks like the location moved :)
[09:59] <Mez>       <default>bin,root,daemon,adm,lp,sync,shutdown,halt,mail,news,uucp,operator,nobody,nobody4,noaccess,postgres,pvm,rpm,nfsnobody,pcap</default>
[09:59] <Mez> (from /etc/gdm/gdm.schemas)
[09:59] <Daviey> Mez, So... that doesn't have mysql either!
[10:00] <Daviey> Seeing postgres did make me wonder.. :)
[10:02] <popey> mungojerry: it is his
[10:02] <Daviey> Mez, can you just fix it please, kkthnxbye.
[10:05] <popey> ok, todays unity annoyance
[10:05] <popey> have a dual screen machine, with one app full screen on each display
[10:06] <popey> you have to click _in_ a window before you can grab the title bar to drag it out of full screen
[10:06] <JamesTait> Oh, and good morning, everyone!
[10:06] <Mez> Daviey: /msg Daviey can you paste me the /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow entries for mysql?
[10:06] <Mez> wow... fail
[10:07] <mungojerry> popey: i know the beta isn't out yet but getting a working natty in time for release day isn't looking too good atm ?
[10:08] <popey> i suspect this is working as designed
[10:08] <popey> cant help but point out that if they implemented focus follows mouse this issue would not happen
[10:09] <mungojerry> i find focus follows mouse nasty
[10:09] <Mez> Daviey: try running usermod --expiredate 1 mysql
[10:09] <Daviey> Hmm
[10:10] <Daviey> I don't think that is it
[10:10] <Daviey> i'll try
[10:10] <mungojerry> i want gnome-terminal to remain in focus (and at front) while scrolling a firefox page - i do that all day long
[10:10] <Mez> Daviey: and paste me the entries in the shadow/passwd for it :D
[10:12] <Mez> mungojerry: right click, always on top ? (or are you on about unity here?)
[10:12] <mungojerry> mez, that's true but it's a feature i use all the time, so it's best to be the default. i'm doing it right now in pidgin
[10:12]  * Mez shrugs.  As much as I like the fact that Ubuntu are mving with the times - if they force something like unity/gnome-shell on me - I may have to go back to KDE
[10:13] <Mez> I'm glad they're not so far.
[10:13] <Daviey> Mez, passwd is pasted about, shadow is: mysql:*:15046:0:99999:7::1:
[10:13] <Daviey> Mez, I just tried expiredate, and that was no joy.
[10:14] <mungojerry> Mez: open source always finds ways around problems :)
[10:14] <Mez> Daviey: yeah, I can see that.
[10:15] <Mez> Daviey: the only difference I see is that my password hash is ! (signifying locked password) rather than *
[10:15] <Daviey> Mez, I really didn't like Unity - but i've been trying it since the weekend and the only real criticism i have - is that you have to used tabbed gnome-terminals rather than seperate windows.
[10:15] <mungojerry> maybe i'm not very visionary but DE's seem to be looking towards tablets , even though 95% of us are still on desktops/laptops
[10:15] <Daviey> Mez, Yeah, i changed that myself to test.
[10:15] <mungojerry> Daviey: middle click the terminal icon in unity
[10:16] <Mez> Daviey: terminator ftw
[10:16] <mungojerry> gives you a fresh terminal. however to get to show list of open terminals we need to wait until somebody provides functionality like that of docky...or use docky :)
[10:16] <Mez> Daviey: personally, unity has been awful for me every time I've tried it.  It wouldn't show any apps last time I tried it... also - it doesn't like dual monitors
[10:17] <Mez> Daviey: I'll keep trying it - but personally, I can't see me liking it much.
[10:17] <Mez> anyways, gotta go call a man about a dog.
[10:19] <mungojerry> anyone use vmware vsphere?
[10:19] <popey> i dont use tabbed terminals in unity
[10:19] <popey> ctrl+shift+t
[10:20] <Daviey> Mez, see -desktop btw
[10:21] <Daviey> mungojerry, still working out how to middle click :)
[10:21] <popey> 3 fingers
[10:21] <mungojerry> Daviey: 2 button mouse? mac?  middle click on the terminal icon in the launcher :P
[10:22] <mungojerry> the best thing about working in academia is that you can perform software upgrades during the day :)
[10:23] <popey> blimey, thanks for the middle click thing, i never knew that
[10:23] <popey> so much to learn with unity
[10:23] <mungojerry> popey: came from frustration
[10:23] <mungojerry> arrgghgh hey it works!
[10:24] <Daviey> popey, I struggle using two fingers concurrently, let alone 3 :)
[10:24] <mungojerry> i also like that you can run unity --reset from a vty session rather than requiring to be on the active X session
[10:25] <popey> :)
[10:30] <screen-x> morning :)
[10:34] <mungojerry> morning screen-x
[10:34] <mungojerry> grrr i don't understand launchpad
[10:35] <mungojerry> i must be using it wrong..none of my bugs ever seem to see progress
[10:39] <X3N> mungojerry: if you link to them here we could check them for you
[10:39] <mungojerry> x3n do you specialise in any app?
[10:39] <MartijnVdS> mungojerry: launchpad bugs = black holes
[10:40] <X3N> I get responses from my bugs..
[10:40] <X3N> mungojerry: no, but I was more thinking that we could check that they're filed right more than anything else
[10:42] <mungojerry> X3N:  here's one, bug 607405 - i can reproduce it, and have linked to a crash report bug number too. am i right to mark it confirmed? is it my job to mark confirmed or someone else
[10:43] <mungojerry> mind you , not sure about future of gwibber now that the author has gone to the dark side
[10:44] <MadLeomon> dark side?
[10:44] <X3N> he's apparently got fed up with open source
[10:45] <X3N> seems to be quite a bit of progress on that mungojerry
[10:45] <directhex> ryan paul?
[10:45] <mungojerry> MadLeomon: directhex he's switched to apple now
[10:46] <directhex> evil! throw him in the de icaza shaped fire!
[10:48] <mungojerry> X3N:  am i right to mark it confirmed if i can reproduce?
[10:48] <mungojerry> the rules don't seem clear.
[10:48] <mungojerry> particularly if i uploaded crash logs
[10:51]  * popey notes that ken van dyne does most gwibber work these days AFAICT
[10:51] <popey> not Ryan
[10:53] <popey> s/dyne/dine/
[10:53] <mungojerry> thats good to hear
[10:54] <mungojerry> i don't actively use it anymore due to performance issues, but i would use it again if they fixed those..
[10:54] <popey> meh, I'm looking forward to a new better twitter client :D
[10:55] <mungojerry> from kazade?
[10:55] <kazade> :)
[10:58] <mungojerry> how's your app getting on kazade
[10:58]  * screen-x reads about twitter throwing its apps out the pram
[10:59] <kazade> mungojerry, yeah, it's getting there just got past another hurdle
[10:59] <kazade> I can now start implementing the last basic functionality (retweet/reply etc.)
[10:59] <kazade> It works as a twitter client though, I'm running it all the time
[11:01] <mungojerry> good to hear kazade
[11:02] <mungojerry> screen-x: yeah, twitter are dumb. if they want to make money they can either insert ads as compulsory tweets or have a twitter pro account if you have more than 250 followers or something
[11:04] <screen-x> mungojerry: hmm, I may need a new iphone compatible message bus.
[11:04] <screen-x> mungojerry: and, erm GO AWAY!
[11:04] <mungojerry> ?
[11:04] <mungojerry> screen-x: i understand your last message, but not the previous one :P
[11:05] <mungojerry> screen-x: i made a deal that i would stay on irc so long as the drilling noise is going on
[11:05] <screen-x> mungojerry: ok, I'll stop yelling at you ;-)
[11:05] <mungojerry> and they stop spraying us with concrete dust :P
[11:06] <mungojerry> nice of you to care :P
[11:06] <screen-x> mungojerry: I use twitter to get notifications from monitoring systems, but if they are going to keep making it harder to write new apps/scripts, then I need a new way of pushing notifications to my phone.
[11:06] <mungojerry> screen-x: yes, rather shortsighted of them
[11:06] <mungojerry> there's always identica who publish api's i assume
[11:07] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jo Shields] TWIDed. - http://apebox.org/wordpress/linux/374/
[11:07] <mungojerry> if twitter died tomorrow i would just revert to liferea RSS reader
[11:07] <screen-x> I wonder if there are identica clients that can push DMs to an iphone
[11:07] <screen-x> mungojerry: I still use google reader
[11:07] <screen-x> does identica even do DMs?
[11:09] <mungojerry> dunno
[11:11] <screen-x> identica does do DMs.. and there is an official status.net iphone app, but it doesn't do notifications :(
[11:15] <DJones> screen-x: Are identica's DM's private, ie person to person, or do they appear in the public timeline, I thought I'd read somewhere that because identica itself was open, everything that was posted through it would also appear in a public timeline
[11:16] <screen-x> DJones: haven't tested it, I just read that the iphone client supports direct messages, not sure how it works.
[11:17] <screen-x> didn't carry on investigating as it said notifications will be implemented in future (ie not yet) and that is my primary use case.
[11:17] <mungojerry> http://identi.ca/doc/privacy
[11:17] <mungojerry> The following data items are considered private data that won't be shared with other users, business partners, or the public at large:  your "private messages"
[11:17] <mungojerry> etc
[11:17] <brobostigon> morning everyone.
[11:21] <DJones> mungojerry: screen-x Just read this "Direct messages will not show up in the public timeline. They will only be visible in the Inbox and Outbox tabs of your profile. If you receive a direct message, you'll be notified with an email containing the direct message and a link to reply to the message." So not what I though anyway
[11:21] <mungojerry> sounds like twitter then
[11:22] <mungojerry> except less trendy types
[11:56] <livingdaylight> Greetings
[11:56] <brobostigon> good morning livingdaylight
[11:57] <livingdaylight> gm brobostigon
[11:58] <livingdaylight> want to burn iso to disc.  Can someone advise me which is the correct for burning os.iso to dvd?
[11:59] <DJones> livingdaylight: What app are you using to burn with
[11:59] <livingdaylight> DJones, its default what ubuntu pops up when I slot dvd in
[11:59] <livingdaylight> let me see
[12:00] <DJones> livingdaylight: I normally cancel that and just use gnomebaker which has an option to burn an iso
[12:00] <livingdaylight> CD DVD creator
[12:00] <livingdaylight> ok
[12:01] <DJones> I would have thought it was burn file rather than contents though for an iso
[12:01] <livingdaylight> I think I used to do that too, but since it pops up everytime, like advertising I've finally succumbed to it
[12:01] <livingdaylight> it recognizes that its an iso and says so, presumably knows what its for then, yet gives me the option, thought I'd double check before wasting a dvd
[12:02] <DJones> As I've never used that app for burning an iso, i'm only guessing
[12:03] <mungojerry> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto#Ubuntu
[12:03] <livingdaylight> Brasero is the default burner in ubuntu?
[12:03] <mungojerry> the wiki suggests right mouse click the iso and choose "write to disc"
[12:03] <livingdaylight> mungojerry, i've hat mixed luck with that method in the past
[12:04] <dogmatic69> if i have some folders that are owned by user 'git' and i need 'www-data' to access them, what is the best way?
[12:05] <dogmatic69> i could just chmod a+r but there must be a better way..
[12:07] <mungojerry> dogmatic69: are you serving the files via the webserver?
[12:08] <mungojerry> depending on the group permissions, you could add git to www-data group, or vice versa
[12:09] <dogmatic69> mungojerry: yip gitview needs to show the repos on the web, and gitosis manages them with the git user
[12:14] <AlanChicken> yay, my internets are fixed
[12:15] <brobostigon> :)
[12:18] <directhex> bok bok bok
[12:18] <nigelb> AlanChicken: did you turn it off and turn it back on?
[12:18] <AlanChicken> someone did
[12:18] <AlanChicken> I can now ping my house
[12:18] <nigelb> directhex: hahaha
[12:18] <nigelb> AlanChicken: at TheOpenSourcerer's place?
[12:19] <AlanChicken> but I have to go home and change my default gateway before I can ssh in
[12:19] <AlanChicken> yeah
[12:19] <nigelb> :)
[12:21] <dogmatic69> nigelb: where are you in the uk?
[12:23] <nigelb> dogmatic69: nowhere :D
[12:23] <nigelb> dogmatic69: I'm in India :)
[12:24] <dogmatic69> lol
[12:24] <dogmatic69> #ubuntu-india :D
[12:25] <mungojerry> AlanChicken: why chicken?
[12:25] <mungojerry> i wondered but was too polite to ask :P
[12:25] <directhex> bok bok bok
[12:28] <DJones> mungojerry: He has a chicken shed with chickens
[12:28] <mungojerry> ah
[12:28] <mungojerry> for eating or eggs
[12:29] <brobostigon> or both?
[12:30] <czajkowski> nope
[12:30] <czajkowski> only Eggs
[12:32] <mungojerry> it seems chickens can live for as long as some dogs do
[12:32] <daubers> Stupid blasted python sockets
[12:32] <daubers> Why on earth is it listening on one interface, but not the others
[12:33] <AlanChicken> mungojerry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7snWiHvpwc
[12:35] <mungojerry> mmm looks tasty
[12:36] <DJones> AlanChicken: Has there been any conclusion on which came first yet?
[12:36] <AlanChicken> yes
[12:36] <AlanChicken> some people think the chickens come first, others think the eggs come first
[12:36] <AlanChicken> they are all wrong
[12:36] <AlanChicken> the chicken coop comes first, otherwise a fox will get them
[12:37] <DJones> AlanChicken: :) I was just thinking that just as you said it
[12:38] <kazade> obviously "Eggs" in general came before Chicken's evolved ;)
[12:38] <kazade> Dinosaur eggs for example :)
[12:38]  * kazade ruins it
[12:38] <mungojerry> i remember dinosaur egg sweets
[12:38] <mungojerry> they cam in a box so you could suck it for 2 hours and put it back till later
[12:39] <screen-x> eww
[12:39]  * DJones seconds that
[12:40]  * mungojerry quickly changes subject.
[12:40] <mungojerry> kernel 2.6.38 has been released http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_38
[12:43] <dogmatic69> could anyone help me out with the permissions, cant seem to get www-data reading user 'git' files
[12:43] <dogmatic69> ive done sudo usermod -a -G  git www-data and sudo usermod -a -G  www-data git
[12:44] <mungojerry> dogmatic69: what are the group permissions on the files owned by git
[12:44] <dogmatic69> groups git shows www-data and groups www-data shows git but still getting permission denied
[12:45] <dogmatic69> mungojerry: drwxrwx-w-
[12:45] <mungojerry> and the group owner?
[12:45] <dogmatic69> git:git
[12:47] <dogmatic69> file_get_contents(/home/git/repositories/geneo1.git/description): failed to open stream: Permission denied [2]
[12:47] <nigelb> dogmatic69: AlanChicken hangs out in #ubuntu-in, so we're prettty much set ;)
[12:48] <dogmatic69> that particular file is -rw-rw-rw- 1 git git   39 2011-03-15 12:29 description
[12:48] <dogmatic69> nigelb: hehe
[12:48] <mungojerry> dogmatic69: have you tried making a test file in an alternative test directory?
[12:48] <dogmatic69> mungojerry: how you mean?
[12:49] <mungojerry> there might be an issue with permissions /home/git directory not allowing access
[12:50] <mungojerry> i thought the files would be in /var/www/html or something
[12:50] <dogmatic69> ye, you think linux is not liking it due to being a home dir?
[12:52] <mungojerry> dogmatic69: well the git homedir may only allow rwx------ for git.
[12:52] <dogmatic69> mungojerry: dont think so
[12:55] <dogmatic69> mungojerry: what is does the d mean where there is a - here... -rwxrwxrwx
[12:55] <dogmatic69> others have drwxrwxrwx
[12:55] <directhex> directory
[12:56] <dogmatic69> man
[12:56] <dogmatic69> ive got it to sort of work but its just horrible
[12:56] <dogmatic69> chown to ubuntu and made it a+x -R
[12:56] <dogmatic69> but still not working proplerly
[13:04] <mungojerry> dogmatic69: hard to tell without seeing your machine, but in these cases it's always best to reduce to the simplest situation : e.g. make a /test/ directory, and play with permissions in there to establish that www-data can read files owned by git:git in there.. the many levels of parent directories in your real-world example add complexity, so best to make sure it works in a simple case first.
[13:11] <czajkowski> http://twitpic.com/49pno2  this is how people bribe me
[13:13] <brobostigon> :)
[13:29] <brobostigon> what do people think of three, i am getting increasingly frustrated with o2's signal quality, and three's payg deals are much better than o2's.
[13:31] <brobostigon> will three be any better,?
[13:32] <directhex> three's signal will likely be worse
[13:32] <brobostigon> oh,not good, :(
[13:33] <mungojerry> brobostigon: some network providers have detailed maps for you to check coverage to a fine level
[13:34] <brobostigon> directhex: i have plugged in one of their free sims, into one of my old nokia's, to test signal.
[13:34] <mungojerry> i was able to check that t-mobiles coverage at my house is lame
[13:34] <brobostigon> mungojerry: i checked that it says the quality should be good.
[13:34] <mungojerry> o2 or 3
[13:34] <brobostigon> 3
[13:35] <mungojerry> it's worth checking the t&c
[13:35] <brobostigon> mungojerry: o2, has some very annoying signal blackspots.
[13:35] <Laney> i thought three had a network share
[13:35] <mungojerry> brobostigon: i find the same with t-mobile
[13:35] <brobostigon> mungojerry: i am just doing that.
[13:36] <brobostigon> mungojerry: including a nice big blackspot, in the front bar of my  favorite pub.
[13:37] <mungojerry> t-mob and orange have a network share..not using it yet because android gives a warning when switching from tmob to orange on data
[13:37] <brobostigon> ah.
[13:37] <screen-x> "everything everywhere"
[13:37] <mungojerry> screen-x: except for certain stations on my route home..
[13:38] <screen-x> mungojerry: the genious of the name is that it makes job titles sound awesome
[13:38] <brobostigon> ny other advice/suggestions/ideas?
[13:39] <mungojerry> brobostigon: get a free PAYG 3 sim
[13:39] <mungojerry> and test it for a week
[13:39] <brobostigon> mungojerry: done,got it ysterday,
[13:39] <mungojerry> also , notify o2 of the blackspot in your fave pub :P
[13:40] <brobostigon> mungojerry: ihave done, they have said, its because of the old thick stone, shielding signal.
[13:40] <popey> brobostigon: where I work the only network that gets rock solid connection inside the building is 3
[13:41] <brobostigon> popey: :)
[13:41] <brobostigon> iwill walkaaround blckspots with the free 3 sim, in my old nokia,and test.
[13:44] <mungojerry> brobostigon: what's the 3 payg deal?
[13:47] <brobostigon> mungojerry: £15 (300mins 3000sms unlimited-data)
[13:47] <mungojerry> brobostigon: similar to what i pay on my contract
[13:48] <brobostigon> mungojerry: ah, interesting.
[13:48] <Azelphur> giffgaff do 250 mins unlimited texts unlimited data (no fup) for £10 :D
[13:48] <Azelphur> that's what I'm on
[13:48] <brobostigon> three have no FUP, on said plan either,
[13:49] <Azelphur> indeed
[13:49] <brobostigon> Azelphur: i will look at giffgaff aswell.
[13:49]  * mungojerry feels happier knowing that there's always a workaround: setting your own whilelist for the notification area: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/03/how-to-hide-or-show-app-tray-applets-in-ubuntu-11-04/
[13:49] <Azelphur> brobostigon: if you go with giffgaff lemme refer you we both get £5 xD
[13:50] <brobostigon> Azelphur: :)
[13:50] <mungojerry> what network does giffgaff use?
[13:50] <Azelphur> :)
[13:50] <Azelphur> O2
[13:50] <mungojerry> i think brobostigon wanted away from them :P
[13:51] <Azelphur> oh :P
[13:51] <brobostigon> free mobile internet untill 31 mar 2011, :(
[13:51] <Azelphur> hehe
[13:51] <mungojerry> then we kick you in the nuts
[13:51] <AlanBell> !ping
[13:52] <AlanBell> yay, I feel like myself again
[13:52] <brobostigon> Azelphur: they will have the same blackspots then, so not really alot of use-
[13:53] <Myrtti> AlanBell: and not a chicken?
[13:53] <Azelphur> I see :)
[13:53] <Azelphur> then yea I'd say next best bet is 3, they have more 3g coverage than anyone else
[13:53] <brobostigon> Azelphur: yes,iwould agree. verytrue.
[13:54] <Myrtti> hm
[13:54] <mungojerry> i rarely get 3g on tmob...usually 2g..fortuantely i am mostly connected via wifi
[13:54] <Myrtti> anyone else use dabr for twitter?
[13:55] <brobostigon> mungojerry: 3g on o2, here is distinctly patchy, very similer.
[13:56] <brobostigon> ok, i have some jobs to dointown, be backlater.
[13:57] <Azelphur> I just speedtest.net'd 3498kbps / 1698kbps on giffgaff :)
[13:57] <dogmatic69> omg
[13:57] <Azelphur> Ironically I just speedtest.net'd 0.9mbps on my landline.... *sigh*
[13:58] <dogmatic69> mungojerry: fixed with a .htaccess rewrite rule o.o
[13:58] <dogmatic69> deleted every thing, started over, read the docs...
[13:58] <mungojerry> lol
[13:59] <dogmatic69> never seen "RewriteRule ^([^.]*).git/(.*)   ?a=co&p=$1&r=$2" fix permission problems before...
[14:03] <popey> http://www.speedtest.net/result/1202940253.png
[14:03] <popey> \o/
[14:04] <Azelphur> D:
[14:04] <popey> loving the 2Mb/s up!
[14:04] <popey> thats faster than my ADSL down used to be!
[14:05] <Azelphur> popey: 2Mb/sec on virgin cable? that's a bit depressing
[14:05] <Azelphur> I almost get that on my phone
[14:05] <popey> up
[14:05] <Azelphur> yup, up
[14:05] <Azelphur> I just did a speedtest.net from my phone and got 1.6 up
[14:05] <popey> oh, so i see
[14:05] <popey> nice!
[14:05] <AlanBell> http://www.speedtest.net/result/1202943383.png me today
[14:06] <popey> AlanBell: D! Back of the class!
[14:06] <Azelphur> lol
[14:07] <AlanBell> yeah :(
[14:07] <Azelphur> http://speedtest.net/result/1202928116.png going for the high score :D
[14:07] <gord> i get pretty good up compared to my down, but still crap =\ http://www.speedtest.net/result/1202945809.png
[14:08] <mungojerry> the speedtest dial only goes up to 100
[14:08] <Azelphur> gah I can't even play minecraft, I connect and time out :(
[14:11]  * popey wants to find someone who can identify the song in the latest charlie brooker program
[14:11] <popey> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00zg1rh 24 mins in - NSFW probably
[14:11] <gord> popey, you don't have one of those apps on your phone that can do that?
[14:12] <popey> he's talking over it
[14:13] <Azelphur> wow, my internet is so broken :(
[14:13] <Azelphur> I can't even read my email, god alone knows how I'm on IRC
[14:16]  * mungojerry likes a challenge
[14:16] <Myrtti> popey: was that the hooray for the na*is part?
[14:16] <popey> just before that yes
[14:17] <popey> starts just as he explains the premice of the program
[14:17] <popey> snare drums, piano, then some kind of wooden thing, xylophone maybe
[14:17] <mungojerry> the song that goes bumbumbumbumdidibumbumbum
[14:20] <ball> mungojerry: "Goodness Gracious Me!"
[14:21] <mungojerry> what have i done now?
[14:21] <mungojerry> :P
[14:21] <ball> How do I put my rubbish bin back where it's supposed to be?
[14:21] <ball> mungojerry: That's the title of the song that goes "bumbuddibumbuddi..."
 I could understand Tandys being around, or maybe even Tandy's became Maplin
[14:28] <DJones> I didn't realise Maplins was that old, 1st store in 1975
[14:29] <mungojerry> all those guys from the 80s are dead - sinclair/commodore/acorn (except as part of ARM) ..wonder who will be dead in 20 yrs...nokia, ...
[14:30] <DJones> mungojerry: Not quite all dead, Apple are still around :)
[14:30] <mungojerry> DJones: apple weren't on my radar as a young lad. and MS baled them out too
[14:30] <popey> mungojerry: http://www.whatsthatcalled.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15813
[14:31] <popey> none of those companies is dead technicall
[14:31] <popey> *technically
[14:31] <popey> Amstrad owns Sinclair
[14:31] <popey> Commodore name has been passed around over the years but still exists
[14:31] <popey> Acorn became ARM didnt they?
[14:32] <popey> and yes, I expect Nokia to die soon :(
[14:34] <mungojerry> also Acorn guys -> Psion -> Symbian -> Nokia -> RIP :(
[14:35] <balor> About a million years ago (or so) there was a native Android thing/VM/davlik implementation for Ubuntu.  Is this still around?
[14:36] <ball> popey: ARM was spun off from Acorn.  The remainder of Acorn went on to concentrate on things like set-top boxes for cable TV
[14:36] <ball> I forget their new name.
[14:37] <mungojerry> Pace?
[14:39] <DJones> We can't forget the other Acorn offshoot ... "Acorn Antiques" :)
[14:39] <Azelphur> damn, there is something seriously wrong with minecrafts networking code xD
[14:39] <Azelphur> I'm having a conversation with someone in game, and watching the CraftIRC relay
[14:39] <mungojerry> Herman hauser must be absolutely loaded
[14:39] <Azelphur> and they are replying in game to what I'm typing, before what I'm typing even shows up on my client
[14:40] <Azelphur> so like, I say "Hi", It comes up in IRC, Someone replies, Then I see myself say "Hi" in game like 50 seconds later XD
[14:40] <DJones> Azelphur: It could just be your internet connection
[14:41] <Azelphur> It could be, I need to do a speedtest to my server and see what I get
[14:43] <Azelphur> not amazing, 64KB/sec
[14:44] <mungojerry> lol
[14:44] <mungojerry> what's the latency
[14:44]  * DJones offers Azelphur a freshly fed & watered carrier pidgeon
[14:44] <Azelphur> 90ms
[14:44] <Azelphur> haha
[14:45] <Azelphur> what's the uuk minecraft server?
[14:45] <Azelphur> I'll try connecting to that and see what's going on
[14:45] <popey> popeydc.dyndns.org
[14:47] <Azelphur> yep, I've downloaded like 3 chunks and got no further :P
[14:48] <Azelphur> and now it crashed \o/
[14:48] <Azelphur> I clearly broke it with my amazing powers :(
[14:49] <Azelphur> lol I see a squid swimming through the air :D
[14:49] <Azelphur> fly little squid, fly!
[15:02] <Myrtti> home made tom yum gai ♥
[15:04] <popey> right, best get kids from school
[15:08] <Azelphur> just tried minecraft on my netbook and got the same issues, tethering to my phone now to try :)
[15:22] <szymon_g> morning
[15:45] <DJones> Can somebody look at the video file on this website at about 3 minutes 20 seconds and let me know whether the "planned" road layout is insane http://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/environment_and_planning/planning/heritage_natural_environment/landscape/design_and_management/regeneration_projects/poynton_village_centre/poynton_-_the_future_video.aspx
[15:46] <DJones> There's about 20-30 seconds after that of suicidal pedestrians crossing the road, I'm sure the designer must have spent their childhood playing Lemmings
[15:48] <mungojerry> DJones: you mean the roundabouts
[15:48] <DJones> yes
[15:48] <Myrtti> aw, I should've made double the amount of the soup
[15:49] <mungojerry> double roundabouts are insanity IMO and should only occur as a temporary workaround to fixing a real problem
[15:49] <mungojerry> as the picture demonstrates, there is already potential for problems in their mockup
[15:50] <mungojerry> looks like the congestion problems i get in sim city when accidentally remove a road tile
[15:50] <Myrtti> roundabouts are a cheap way of managing traffic flow in places where traffic signals would probably be better
[15:50] <mungojerry> Myrtti: these are DOUBLE roundabouts
[15:50] <mungojerry> conjoined twins
[15:50] <Myrtti> the only place where roundabouts make more sense is out of the town, where there isn't enough traffic to warrant traffic signals
[15:50] <DJones> Myrtti: There are already traffic signals where they're planning on putting these double roundabouts
[15:51] <Myrtti> mungojerry: double roundabouts are even more useless
[15:51] <mungojerry> DJones: are the video makers against the idea?
[15:51] <Myrtti> I don't understand the great love britons have for roundabouts
[15:51] <Myrtti> useless
[15:51] <mungojerry> they look like they are
[15:51] <directhex> roundabouts manage flows in a different way to signals
[15:51] <directhex> not better or worse. different
[15:51] <jpds> roundabouts are brilliant for cyclists.
[15:51] <DJones> mungojerry: Thats the planners video showing how well its going to work :)
[15:51] <mungojerry> DJones: surely not :(
[15:52] <mungojerry> look at the jams!
[15:52] <mungojerry> the best traffic management is to put in traffic lights and cut the power - seems to work well round my way when there's a traffic light failure
[15:52] <DJones> mungojerry: Yep, look at the pedestrians scurrying across that middle bit of the two roundabouts, I'm sure some of them get run over
[15:52] <mungojerry> DJones: yeah, where's the articulated lorry driver supposed to be looking?
[15:53] <mungojerry> you need a codriver to navigate thatroundabout
[15:53] <directhex> here's the thing: if you look at their plans, the accidents are focused on stretches of clear straight road
[15:54] <Myrtti> meh, my hypochondria isn't going away :-(
[15:54] <directhex> "shared spaces" is the fancy term for "get rid of all the signs and markings, so every driver needs to be shitting themselves & concentrating hard in order to not die"
[15:54] <directhex> research shows it's actually genuinely successful - concentrating drivers kill fewer people
[15:54] <mungojerry> Myrtti: i hope it's not catching
[15:54] <directhex> their roundabout plan looks zany and hard - but as part of a shared space design, i suspect that's the point
[15:55] <DJones> I don't know about a co-driver, I'd want beta blockers, a bottle of vodka & a blindfold
[15:55] <directhex> notice the lack of actual roundabout middles. it's planned chaos
[15:55] <mungojerry> directhex: where i work, pedestrians don't even understand that you need to press a button to make the lights change.
[15:55] <DJones> directhex: That description of "Shared spaces" is a brilliant way of putting it
[15:55] <mungojerry> and the drivers don't have mental faculty to concentrate
[15:55] <directhex> DJones, it's true though. and it *does* work
[15:56] <Myrtti> directhex: I'd love the drivers to concentrate also on not killing anyone else
[15:56] <directhex> Myrtti, that's the point. drivers can't just go in autopilot in a shared space
[15:56] <mungojerry> there should be a subway or footbridge to remove the dead pedestrians from the equiation
[15:56] <directhex> they're more alert, so they react
[15:56] <Myrtti> I hate roundabouts, especially here where the car drivers have 0 respect for pedestrians
[15:57] <mungojerry> Myrtti: i think its because there's too much else to look at
[15:57] <directhex> oh hells, that's what they did with my estate... that's why there are no markings on the re-paved sections!
[15:57] <directhex> that or they're lazy
[15:57] <Myrtti> I'd be rich if I'd be given a tenner everytime I see a driver ignore the "yield" triangle when driving into a roundabout with zebra crossings. They don't seem to notice the fact the sign is *before* the zebra crossing, not after it.
[15:58] <directhex> DJones, i've never seen the shared space principle applied to staggered roundabouts, but it's effective in town centers
[16:00] <mungojerry> when i went to paris i stood for ages on top of l'arc de triomphe at the chaos below, wondering how they weren't crashing
[16:05] <DJones> mungojerry: From what I remember of traffic in paris, they weren't crashing because they never moved in the traffic jam
[16:06] <mungojerry> DJones: oh, it was chaos at high speed when i saw it..rather fun
[16:06] <mungojerry> bit like the first corner of a grand prix
[16:07] <DJones> Heh
[16:09] <Pendulum> DJones: my family's fairly certain there must be some sort of supernatural force involved that keeps them from crashing
[16:14] <mungojerry> somebody called mark shuttleworth posted on OMG..didn't realise that he reads it
[16:18] <X3N> mungojerry: link?
[16:18] <X3N> although given his last out pourings I'm not sure I want to read..
[16:19] <mungojerry> X3N: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/03/thunderbird-unity-extension-ready-for-testing/#comment-166030849
[16:20] <szymon_g> thanx for link, nice extension btw
[16:21] <mungojerry> despite the occasional odd behaviour from members of their team, omg are bringing some good unity stories lately, esp. with jcastro et al joining in
[16:26]  * bigcalm looks in for a moment
[16:32]  * DJones looks out of the window
[16:36] <Myrtti> hm, I'm almost considering getting more chicken and mushrooms to make more soup
[16:42] <szymon_g> "mushrooms"? they are only good with sauerkraut :)
[16:43] <Myrtti> they're brilliant in tom yum gai
[16:44] <szymon_g> "tom yum gai"? whats that?
[16:44] <kaushal> hi
[16:44] <szymon_g> hi kaushal
[16:45] <kaushal> how do i install 32 bit libraries on 10.10 desktop running 64 Bit os ?
[16:45] <kaushal> szymon_g: hi
[16:46] <DJones> szymon_g: I looked it up before, from memory, thai sweet & spicy chicken soup
[16:46] <szymon_g> apt-get install ia32-libs ← kaushal
[16:46] <kaushal> ok
[16:47] <szymon_g> hm... sounds nice. i like thai curry
[16:47] <Myrtti> szymon_g: spicy and sour thai chicken soup
[16:47] <szymon_g> kaushal, those are "standard" 32 libraries, pretty generic. depending what do you want to install you may need to get other libraries
[16:47] <Myrtti> BF has a flu so it fits the bill
[16:48] <DJones> I normally have Chilli when I've got a cold, the hotter the better
[16:49] <kaushal> szymon_g: ok
[16:49] <Myrtti> we've dated for good three years soon and this is about the first time I've seen him with flu
[16:50] <popey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MF9zkU2Lw
[16:50] <szymon_g> Myrtti, its called "man's flu" ;)
[16:50] <popey> youtubed for easier identification!
[16:51] <popey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXLHWmjA5IE <- man cold
[16:51] <popey> mungojerry: that guy (concious user) reads and replies to stuff a lot, he's active in ayatana
[16:52] <mungojerry> popey: however i was unaware that sadbfl read omg...however he said somewhere he likes reddit so..
[16:54] <bigcalm> sadbfl or sabdfl?
[16:54] <mungojerry> :)
[16:54] <bigcalm> Just checking ;)
[16:54] <mungojerry> not intended
[16:55] <bigcalm> Ah, fair enough :)
[16:55] <Myrtti> szymon_g: I'm the one with the more violent sicknesses... *shrug*
[16:56] <szymon_g> yeah. i understand. that time of the month
[16:56] <szymon_g> ;)
[16:58] <Myrtti> you can tell that to the Clexane shots I'll probably need to have everytime I travel by air in the future...
[16:58] <DJones> Myrtti: Clexane, nasty, you my every sympathy with those
[16:59] <DJones> They seem to be a bit of a family tradition for my wife, her mum & aunties
[17:00] <Myrtti> DJones: homozygotic F V Leiden... I've failed in the luck lottery lately
[17:01] <DJones> Myrtti: I hadn't heard of that, with my wife, its Hughes Syndrome - Sticky blood
[17:03] <szymon_g> o.O that sounds creepy
[17:04] <DJones> Myrtti: We were on holiday last year and her legs swelled up the day before we were due to come home, she ended up spending an extra week in hospital with clexane injections
[17:04] <Myrtti> I like the probability numbers. In comparison to normal women without oral contraceptives, who have the chances of 1:125000 to get a DVT or pulmonary embolism, I've been blessed with the probabilities of ... <drumroll>1:150</drumroll>
[17:04] <szymon_g> Myrtti, is it, somehow, dangerous?
[17:05] <DJones> Myrtti: Are you on any of the precautinary medication, warfarin etc
[17:06] <Myrtti> no, but I'm wearing flight socks as we speak and stopped some of my medication. Got the specialists opinion here that says nothing can be done apart from preventive Clexane when I fly or am pregnant, the flight socks, non-hormonal contraception and losing weight.
[17:07] <Myrtti> Finns don't have official instructions what to do for preventing a blood clot in my case, only what to do when I've had one.
[17:07] <Myrtti> which, of course, sucks.
[17:07] <Myrtti> c'est la vie
[17:08] <Myrtti> (that has become my motto lately)
[17:08] <DJones> That side certainly doesn't sound good, mother-in-law is on warfarin, has to get checked out every week to check the levels
[17:08] <Pendulum> Myrtti: you're the 3rd person in about 2 weeks I've known either get diagnosed or tested
[17:08] <Pendulum> (and that's not counting the people who already were diagnosed)
[17:16] <Mez> Myrtti: That sucks.  DVTs are bad - but I hate the way that they only ever link it to pulmonary embolism... There are so many things that it can cause (Stroke/Cardiac Failure etc)
[17:30] <Myrtti> methinks minecraft is in order
[17:30] <bigcalm> Are you making anything?
[17:32] <Myrtti> I seem to be doing nothing since I can't connect to my usual server...
[17:32] <directhex> i wonder if there are plans for a minecraft nuclear reactor...
[17:34] <shauno> I think you'd need something a bit more interesting than lava.  turning it into cobble isn't very exciting
[17:34] <MartijnVdS> lava + pressure cooker = diamond?
[17:34] <MartijnVdS> would that work for you? :)
[17:36] <screen-x> mmmm nuclear reactor surrounded by creepers
[17:36] <Cepheus> more like coal + pressure cooker
[17:36] <shauno> that said, I think all the reactor stuff is completely over-done.  guess it sells more news than worrying about the rest of the side effects of the quakes
[17:43] <MartijnVdS> Cepheus: + lava (to heat said pressure cooker) :)
[17:43] <Cepheus> MartijnVdS: sounds like a winning combo
[17:54]  * Tan says hi
[17:54] <szymon_g> hi Tan
[18:11] <daubers> Evening
[18:11] <screen-x> evening :)
[18:22] <MartijnVdS> \o
[18:29] <sladen> oly_: (assuming you're the same person as on AskUbuntu), do you have a solution to your kernel .config question?
[18:30] <oly_> nope doubt its me, not even aware of askubuntu :p
[18:31] <sladen> oly_: okay!  (if you're interested, it's  http://askubuntu.com/  )
[18:44] <X3N> hello sladen
[18:57] <sladen> X3N: muwahahah GNOME events boxes.  Missed my Eurostar cos of those
[18:59] <X3N> agh :|
[19:00] <X3N> I wonder how useful it is these days
[19:00] <X3N> given that hardware isn't so precious
[19:01] <X3N> I remember lugging it across reading to london, not something i'd ever want to do again heh
[19:44] <czajkowski> Aloha
[19:45] <MartijnVdS> \o czajkowski
[19:53] <hamitron> well, comp desk sorted
[19:53] <hamitron> :)
[20:26] <nucc1> is there some way i can determine the highest resolution timer available on my machine?
[20:27] <nucc1> i suppose current linuxes use nanoseconds.
[20:34]  * hamitron spanks Azelphur
[20:34] <Azelphur> o.O
[20:34] <hamitron> did you find a buyer for that psu?
[20:34] <dogmatic69> nucc1: clock ticks
[20:34] <dogmatic69> dont know if/how you can use them, but they are around
[20:40] <hamitron> so annoying when you buy bits, and some old bits you used to use decide to not work when building a seperate machine
[20:40] <hamitron> I got a RAID 0 array with an error now
[20:40] <hamitron> :(
[20:40] <nucc1> dogmatic69, thanks. seems straightforward to do from C. In any case, calling System.nanoTime() from Java gives me a result that is in nanoseconds. It's good enough.
[20:40] <dogmatic69> cool
[20:40] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: This is why people don't use RAID 0
[20:41] <hamitron> MartijnVdS, I only use it for transcoding video
[20:41] <hamitron> ;)
[20:41] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: ah it's "swap"
[20:41] <hamitron> sort of, yeh
[20:42] <hamitron> but I was lazy and left a few things on there
[20:42] <hamitron> so may of paid the price
[20:43] <hamitron> appears to be my "program files" folder
[20:43] <hamitron> :s
[20:43] <MartijnVdS> Face, meet palm
[20:43] <hamitron> got a dodgy PSU
[20:43] <hamitron> :/
[20:44] <hamitron> that or I've overloaded it
[20:44] <hamitron> cheap ass thing
[20:44] <hamitron> only cost 7 quid ;)
[21:07] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Ubuntu Global Jam: More Events, More Needed! - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/03/15/ubuntu-global-jam-more-events-more-needed/
[21:25] <shauno> battenberg .. om nom nom nom
[21:26] <bigcalm> Icky
[21:26] <shauno> !
[21:27] <bigcalm> I'm not a marsipan fan
[21:27]  * hamitron neither
[21:27] <hamitron> bbl, coffee, food and testing bits
[21:28] <shauno> that's cool.  I wasn't offering to share :p
[21:30] <ali1234> what do people actually do at these global jam events?
[21:32] <bigcalm> Eat toast?
[21:36] <AlanBell> keepassx
[21:40] <Laney> pectin
[21:40] <Laney> lots of pectin
[21:41] <bigcalm> I think I've been in the office for long enough today. Time to take the laptop to bed
[21:42] <zleap> when is the next podcast due ?
[21:42] <AlanBell> zleap: they just this second finished recording it
[21:43] <zleap> ok cool
[21:43] <zleap> so i should be able to download it shortly,  thanks
[21:43] <AlanBell> in the next couple of days
[21:43] <zleap> ok cool
[21:51] <popey> zleap: tomorrow
[21:52] <zleap> ok thanks
[21:55] <ali1234> so is askubuntu.com like a sub-section of stack exchange, or is it separate?
[21:56] <popey> yes
[21:56] <popey> :)
[21:56] <ali1234> eg does my askubuntu.com login work on stack exchange?
[21:56] <popey> the former
[21:56] <popey> yes
[21:56] <ali1234> ok, cool
[21:56] <popey> well, no
[21:56] <popey> but they aggregate your logons
[21:56] <ali1234> oh... :)
[21:56] <popey> or something
[21:56] <ali1234> if i search on stack exchange, is it possible to find the content on askubuntu?
[21:56] <popey> pass
[21:57] <popey> dunno if there is a cross site search
[21:57] <ali1234> i guess i can ask on meta :)
[21:57] <popey> well, there is, its google :)
[22:12] <HazRPG> \o howdy all
[22:13] <dogmatic69> o/
[22:14] <dogmatic69> anyone know how i can check what ppa is running?
[22:14] <dogmatic69> nvm
[22:15] <dogmatic69> apt-get dist-upgrade works
[22:15]  * dogmatic69 cries
[22:16] <ali1234> fail: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12751404
[22:17] <ali1234> stupid idea badly executed :(
[22:17] <dogmatic69> lol
[22:17] <dogmatic69> almost as much fail as my site...
[22:18] <dogmatic69> apt-get dist-upgrade ~= 503 errors :(
[22:18] <AlanBell> I have no idea how you would enginer a digital clock to fail like that
[22:18] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: run it off a windows box
[22:18] <AlanBell> I can understand it going off
[22:19] <AlanBell> or all segments on
[22:19] <AlanBell> but stopping is a curious failure mode
[22:19] <ali1234> running it off any kind of programmable computer is just asking for trouble
[22:19] <ali1234> asic timers have been around for years
[22:19] <AlanBell> it is a 101 logic programming exercise
[22:21] <ali1234> actually you could still get that freezing even without a computer to crash
[22:21] <ali1234> if it has shift registers (which it will to drive the LEDs) they will hold the last value even if the asic blows up
[22:22] <AlanBell> probably relays to control the segments actually, logic circuits won't light them up directly
[22:22] <ali1234> relays?
[22:23] <ali1234> itym power transistors :)
[22:23] <AlanBell> yeah, or them
[22:23] <ali1234> but you can get integrated shift registers/ led drivers in 1 chip anyway...
[22:23]  * AlanBell did basic electronics 20 years ago
[22:24] <ali1234> eg http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/4909
[22:25] <AlanBell> I bet they tried to be smart and use the GPS clock signal or something
[22:25] <ali1234> ugh, no
[22:25] <ali1234> like i said last night, i have an alarm clock that does that
[22:25] <ali1234> and it is consistently 15 minutes slow
[22:26] <ali1234> because the designers forgot to take into account the ephemeris adjustments
[22:26] <gord> hehe, maybe you are 15 minutes "into" the time zone? ;)
[22:26] <ali1234> gord: when it was new it was right
[22:26] <gord> was just being silly
[22:51] <HazRPG> erm... apparently commodore are remaking the 64's again!
[22:52] <HazRPG> however don't all rush at once, its using all singing all-dancing tech of the current era
[22:52] <HazRPG> Intel Atom processor and Realtek sound card, along with nvidia for the graphics card
[22:52] <HazRPG> http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx <== check it
[22:56] <hamitron> HazRPG, how much it cost?
[22:56] <HazRPG> hamitron: no price yet, they haven't made them yet
[22:57] <ali1234> it's just a PC with a C64 logo on it
[22:57] <hamitron> ali1234, and?
[22:57] <hamitron> ;)
[22:57] <ali1234> well, quite
[22:57] <HazRPG> its got a boot loader at startup to select the C64 O/S (emulated apparently), and you can install "windows" as it states
[22:58] <hamitron> so basically dual boot
[22:58] <HazRPG> yeah, but it sounds like they're doing it PS3 style
[22:58] <HazRPG> GameOS + OtherOS styley
[22:58] <ali1234> they probably just put vice on it
[22:58] <ali1234> in a small linux image
[22:58] <HazRPG> most likely lol
[22:59] <hamitron> well worth the extra 200 quid
[22:59] <hamitron> ;)
[22:59] <hamitron> or whatever they think they can get
[22:59] <HazRPG> however I have a feeling they'll be designing it to run with the full 2GB RAM, etc
[22:59] <hamitron> what c64 game needs that? ;/
[22:59] <HazRPG> would be pointless putting the SD card, CD/DVD/Blu-ray drive - if the C64 part couldn't use all of that
[23:00] <hamitron> that is for loading your game "images"
[23:00] <hamitron> ;)
[23:00] <hamitron> that they will charge for?
[23:00] <HazRPG> unsure?
[23:00] <ali1234> wii virtual console anyone?
[23:00] <hamitron> C64N
[23:00] <ali1234> except that the games on there are actually good :)
[23:00] <HazRPG> its essentially an emulator... so I don't see why the disk images wouldn't work on this, or at least hacked to use them
[23:00] <hamitron> C64 Network \o/
[23:01] <hamitron> 99p each
[23:01] <hamitron> 500kb downloads
[23:01] <ali1234> C64 games are nowhere near 500kb
[23:01] <hamitron> even with modern encryption and copyright protection?
[23:02] <ali1234> the thing only has a 16 bit address bus
[23:02] <hamitron> but it looks cool anyway
[23:02] <hamitron> :)
[23:03] <hamitron> I think I've decided about my phone
[23:03] <HazRPG> the new/old c64?
[23:03] <HazRPG> :P
[23:03] <hamitron> I wanna convert my Spectrum ZX into a side talking beast
[23:03] <HazRPG> xD
[23:03] <HazRPG> I was close :P
[23:03] <hamitron> yeh
[23:03] <hamitron> I don't have a C64 to convert
[23:04] <hamitron> also, everyone here seems C64 crazy
[23:04] <hamitron> and I like to be different
[23:04] <hamitron> ;)
[23:06] <hamitron> suppose a Spectrum ZX 128 +2 would be better, so could use the built in cassette for voice mail
[23:07] <ali1234> Z80 is much nicer to program than 6502
[23:08] <hamitron> don't you think ARM is best choice?
[23:08] <ali1234> they are not comparable
[23:08] <hamitron> true
[23:10] <HazRPG> heh apparently commodore are doing a new like of computers too, along with a new line of amigas too
[23:10] <HazRPG> Commodore Phoenix
[23:10] <ali1234> it's all vapour
[23:10] <HazRPG> and Amiga 1000, 2000, 3000
[23:10] <ali1234> they've been talking about that stuff for years
[23:10] <HazRPG> ali1234: don't worry I know ;)
[23:11] <ali1234> and it's not commodore, it's just some company that bought the name
[23:11] <ali1234> actually the commodore name has been owned by several such companies over the past 10 years, none of which ever did anything with it, despite lots of talk
[23:11] <hamitron> if the PC market gets much more boring, there may be more of a call for something basic
[23:11] <ali1234> it's probably more like 15 years now
[23:12] <ali1234> how can you say PC market is boring?
[23:12] <ali1234> it's *always* been boring
[23:12] <ali1234> that's the main appeal
[23:12] <hamitron> early 90s was more fun
[23:12] <ali1234> not if you had a PC
[23:12] <hamitron> even mid 90s
[23:13] <hamitron> I am comparing a PC from then, with now
[23:13] <hamitron> :)
[23:13] <hamitron> now you plug stuff in and it just works :/
[23:13] <hamitron> no IRQ and that
[23:13] <hamitron> configuring I mean
[23:14] <ali1234> nobody actually wants to do that stuff
[23:14] <hamitron> a shame
[23:14] <hamitron> ;/
[23:14] <ali1234> nobody ever did
[23:15] <hamitron> there are many "geeks" who don't even know about IRQ now
[23:15] <ali1234> they're not geeks, they are just pretending
[23:15] <hamitron> hence the ""
[23:15] <hamitron> ;)
[23:16] <hamitron> but it was easier to considering modding stuff
[23:16] <hamitron> or even designing stuff
[23:16] <ali1234> all of that stuff is as easy today as it was then
[23:16] <ali1234> in fact it is easier since you don't have to pay $2000 for an oscilloscope
[23:17] <hamitron> I can't see how people are gonna learn stuff like opengl in the future
[23:17] <HazRPG> back
[23:17] <HazRPG> hamitron: hmm... you make the IRQ sound like its something to wow over, isn't it just an request interrupt :/
[23:17] <HazRPG> or something like that
[23:17] <ali1234> the same way they learn it now, by buying the red book...
[23:18] <hamitron> depreciating the older methods removes the first step
[23:18] <hamitron> ;/
[23:18] <stuart__> Hello, I'm having a bit of difficulty getting accents, ie graves and umlats (spellign bda) to work. Now i have tried just about all that I can find. Additionally, I am working under xfce, but not from a xubuntu install.
[23:18] <ali1234> deprecating!!!
[23:18] <dogmatic69> how many people even know what is ram
[23:18] <hamitron> my spelling is not good :/
[23:19] <ali1234> stuart__: in what program?
[23:19] <dogmatic69> not 'it stores stuff', but what saves the bits
[23:19] <stuart__> Any program.
[23:19] <ali1234> stuart__: such as?
[23:19] <stuart__> gedit, leaf pad. pigeon.
[23:20] <HazRPG> stuart__: ah, that sounds like a keyboard layout issue
[23:20] <stuart__> Basically, the compose key doesn't work as it ought to.
[23:20] <HazRPG> you mean the key that does: `¬
[23:21] <ali1234> ė
[23:21] <ali1234> hmm
[23:21] <stuart__> Well it is a uk keyboard. On an asus eee 1005ha. I can set compose to alt_gr/ralt but I still can't get it to work properly.
[23:21] <ali1234> ẹ
[23:21] <stuart__> And I can go ¬
[23:21] <ali1234> hmm.....
[23:21] <HazRPG> dogmatic69: heh, if they've been to college they ought to know what RAM is... we designed a small RAM chip in Digital Works for our Hardware class
[23:21] <dogmatic69> nice
[23:22] <ali1234> ̣
[23:22] <dogmatic69> ali1234: o.o
[23:22] <dogmatic69> most people dont get that all the fancy stuff is just made up of tiny resistors etc
[23:22] <ali1234> ok so i did that by typing alt gr + / then a letter or alt gr + ? then a letter
[23:23] <HazRPG> stuart__: hmm... I'm confused, so you have a UK layout keyboard... what kind of layout are you expecting?
[23:23] <stuart__> nah. not having it.
[23:23] <hamitron> wiring up d-type flip-flops is totally different to doing ++c; though
[23:23] <hamitron> :/
[23:23] <ali1234> ŭ
[23:23] <ali1234> that was alt gr + ~ followed by u
[23:24] <ali1234> so you need to type alt-gr + accent you want, then the letter
[23:24] <stuart__> This I know. It just doesn't wanna do it.
[23:24] <HazRPG> ali1234: I get this by press alt gr + ~ a few times: `
[23:24] <HazRPG> doesn't do anything the first time though
[23:25] <ali1234> that's so you can make letters with accents like ŭ
[23:25] <ali1234> anyway, it does seem likely to be a problem with keymaps
[23:26] <HazRPG> ali1234: ah, I'm with you
[23:26] <HazRPG> so you have to press alt gr + ~, then release and press the key you'd like the accent
[23:26] <ali1234> or perhaps xfce is using alt-gr for some kind of modifier
[23:26] <HazRPG> ù
[23:27] <stuart__> I am not sure...
[23:27] <stuart__> Under 'gnome-keyboard-settings' the settings can be set. But afaik, I also had this problem under gnome...
[23:28] <HazRPG> stuart__: I'm guessing your doing alt gr + ~ then pressing the letter you want an accent with... because that's what I had to do
[23:32] <stuart__> I have tried about everything. I had it working before, a long time ago and alt-gr ~ a thing did work.
[23:32] <HazRPG> stuart__: open up terminal, and type in the following: sudo showkey
[23:32] <HazRPG> type in your password
[23:32] <HazRPG> and then press the ALT GR key when it asks you to press a key
[23:33] <HazRPG> the output should say keycode 100 press, keycode 100 release
[23:33] <HazRPG> if its showing something else, then its assigned as a different key
[23:33] <stuart__> Check.
[23:34] <HazRPG> stuart__: its showing 100?
[23:34] <stuart__> Yes.
[23:34] <stuart__> A press and a release.
[23:34] <HazRPG> hmmm
[23:34] <HazRPG> try the other alt key
[23:34] <HazRPG> it should show 56
[23:34] <stuart__> 56
[23:35] <stuart__> The keys do work. They just aren't allowing a compose.
[23:36] <HazRPG> yeah I guessed the keys were working, I was just making sure that the alt gr key was actually registering as being an alt gr key
[23:36] <ali1234> create a new user and log in to gnome with that user
[23:37] <stuart__> I will have to log out as i did turn off multiple user thingy.
[23:38] <ali1234> if that works, log in to xfce with that user
[23:38] <ali1234> if it doesn't work, something is really wrong...
[23:38] <HazRPG> stuart__: try this... this will hopefully rule out if the keyset is the issue or not
[23:40] <hamitron> so ali1234
[23:40] <HazRPG> CTRL+SHIFT+U ... then release the U key (but keep hold of CTRL+SHIFT), then type 0102 - then release the CTRL+SHIFT key
[23:40] <hamitron> what you think to the fixed function pipeline in opengl?
[23:40] <ali1234> it's pretty lame
[23:40] <hamitron> not good for learning?
[23:41] <ali1234> meh
[23:41] <ali1234> it's easy to learn, but what is that knowledge good for?
[23:41] <ali1234> books are good for learning
[23:42] <hamitron> for practical applications nothing, but practising using it lets you get your head around the 3d way of things
[23:42] <hamitron> :)
[23:42] <hamitron> lack of serial ports upset me also
[23:42] <ali1234> you know most of the matrix transformations in opengl are done in software right?
[23:43] <ali1234> all the matrix stack stuff
[23:43] <ali1234> push and pop
[23:43] <ali1234> it's all software in nearly all opengl implementations
[23:43] <hamitron> old stuff is still supported too
[23:43] <ali1234> which means removing the fixed function pipeline has absolutely no effect on your ability to use this, or similar apis
[23:44] <hamitron> yeh
[23:44] <ali1234> what you describe as "the 3d way of things" is actually just vector/matrix math
[23:44] <hamitron> yeh
[23:44] <ali1234> all 3d engines implement their own version because the stuff in opengl 1.0 is kind of rubbish
[23:44] <ali1234> and the whole push/pop method of calculating a scene graph is all backwards to the way you do it in a scene graph anyway
[23:45] <hamitron> a noobie learning doesn't want to learn everything at once though :)
[23:45] <ali1234> what is to learn?
[23:46] <ali1234> the mathematical concepts are extremely similar when you remove all the push/pop and gltranslate nonsense
[23:46] <hamitron> it just gets you thinking I suppose
[23:46] <ali1234> if you can conceptualize what it means to multiply together two matrices, the rest is trivial
[23:47] <ali1234> and that's better served by watching a video or something
[23:47] <hamitron> I can't see why so much effort / time was spent putting the system in place in 3.0 to deprecate stuff
[23:47] <ali1234> because the programmable pipeline can be programmed to act like fixed function
[23:47] <ali1234> so it's just pointless duplicated code :)
[23:48] <ali1234> this is how most GPUs are doing it now anyway
[23:48] <hamitron> kk :) so you think they will leave it functioning for a good time yet?
[23:48] <ali1234> sure
[23:48] <hamitron> if that is done, I'm happy
[23:49] <hamitron> I am an opengl newbie, and just feel "left behind" by the talk of deprecating stuff used in learning materials
[23:50] <ali1234> well yeah
[23:50] <ali1234> this is why there is no point learning fixed function :)
[23:50] <ali1234> the new stuff is radically different
[23:50] <hamitron> yeh
[23:50] <hamitron> I've pottered around with 3 different things so far
[23:51] <ali1234> but you would be better off learning to use a 3d engine first
[23:51] <ali1234> one that has a scene graph
[23:51] <hamitron> the early stuff I find easier to see and relate to maths
[23:51] <ali1234> when you understand what it's purpose is, it's easier to conceptualize how it does it
[23:51] <hamitron> k
[23:51] <ali1234> this is the problem with bottom up learning
[23:52] <ali1234> if you don't understand how a thing is used, it's much harder to care about how it works
[23:52] <ali1234> and that makes it harder to learn
[23:52] <ali1234> so you're probably thinking "why doesn't this apply to the arduino then?"
[23:53] <hamitron> I don't do arduino tbh :)
[23:53] <ali1234> yesterday i was advocating bare AVR over arduino
[23:53] <hamitron> yeh
[23:53] <ali1234> and the reason for that is that the arduino is kind of limited in what it will let you do
[23:54] <hamitron> I remember that
[23:54] <ali1234> where as a full 3d engine vs raw opengl will let you do a lot more stuff very quickly
[23:54] <ali1234> when i was at university one of the labs was to make a solar system simulator in opengl
[23:54] <hamitron> so is my red book that uses 2.1 useless?
[23:54] <hamitron> :/
[23:55] <ali1234> i would recommend doing that in opengl, and then doing it in say ogre3d
[23:55] <ali1234> or possibly the other way around
[23:55] <ali1234> either way, doing it in a 3d engine with a proper scene graph is about a billion times easier than doing it in opengl
[23:57] <hamitron> I think I've wasted a lot of time then
[23:57] <hamitron> :/
[23:58] <hamitron> unless it will help me with glide?
[23:59] <ali1234> glide? the 3dfx driver?
[23:59] <hamitron> yeh
[23:59] <ali1234> you shouldn't be using that
[23:59] <hamitron> I know