[01:14] <mrjive> after a successfull install on a dual boot machine with win2k, grub is not capable of bottin win2k... the answer is "NTLDR is missing"... probably it is a win2k ptoblem.. what do you think?
[01:14] <uman> that's weird alright
[01:14] <mrjive> s/botting/booting
[01:14] <Deft> so I haven't even got a finished install of XP
[01:15] <uman> I just dualboot with win98
[01:15] <uman> cause I don't like ntfs
[01:15] <uman> but it's been a while I've actually booted to win98
[01:15] <Deft> uman, XP Pro will do vfat if you want
[01:16] <uman> but I don't have XP and I don't intend to pay for it
[01:16] <uman> I have a legal copy of win98SE, though
[01:16] <polok_> my cdrom isn't listed as being mounted
[01:16] <polok_> but I can't get it out
[01:16] <TheMuso> Have you tried the eject command?
[01:16] <Deft> uman, I wouldn't pay for it; I get one from my uni department :)
[01:17] <Rocha> I was going to install Ubuntu in this computer but it says "No common cd-rom found" and asks me for a driver! Strange.
[01:17] <uman> you prolly pay for it with your fees
[01:17] <TheMuso> Rocha: How old is the machine? And do you know how the CD-ROM is connected?
[01:17] <polok_> TheMuso: ta
[01:18] <Deft> uman, true, but I can't get out of paying them, so I'll just have as many software licenses as I get for it
[01:18] <Rocha> How old? P4 3GHz, DVD CD-RW combo, 512MB ram (not old, pretty new)
[01:18] <uman> yeah, why not
[01:18] <uman> if it's paid already you might as well take it
[01:18] <Deft> sounds like https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1532 is the bug if you read far enough, you might want to look mrjive, not sure if it covers you thing too
[01:18] <TheMuso> Rocha: Hmmm. Have you tried any other installation of Linux on that machine?
[01:18] <Rocha> I'm using Fedora and it didn't complain.
[01:19] <uman> the point I'm making is that I don't want to shell out money to get a legal XP copy
[01:19] <uman> if linux does all I want to do
[01:19] <Rocha> TheMuso, it even recognized the sata hard disk
[01:19] <mrjive> tnx Deft,i'll take a look
[01:19] <TheMuso> What CD image are you trying to install with?
[01:19] <jimi> hi
[01:19] <Rocha> The same I installed at home, i386
[01:20] <TheMuso> Rocha: Yeah, but when was the image downloaded?
[01:20] <TheMuso> Hi jimi
[01:20] <jimi> are there new isos since RC1 ?
[01:20] <Rocha> Hmmm, last friday
[01:20] <TheMuso> There are the daily ISOs I think.
[01:20] <jimi> i cant find anymore the daily isos link T_T
[01:20] <uman> my neighbour is some IT support person, of course all his customers are on windows
[01:20] <TheMuso> Rocha: Ok so that is the RC1 image it seems.
[01:21] <uman> and he asked me the other day how to circumvent the "10 user" problem with XP
[01:21] <uman> hehehe
[01:21] <uman> 10 users, hhaHAHAHAHAHA
[01:21] <jimi> lol
[01:21] <Rocha> TheMuso, last iso is dated 13-Oct
[01:21] <jimi> hum 13 oct is RC1
[01:21] <TheMuso> Yep, thats RC1.
[01:21] <uman> my samba server doesn't care how many users
[01:21] <jimi> doesnt work on my computer :p
[01:21] <TheMuso> Have you looked into any of the boot options available on the CD?
[01:22] <kent> So the Ubuntu which is released now is not the final version, its just a pre-release? When is the first release due?
[01:22] <jimi> kent 20th oct
[01:22] <Rocha> TheMuso, nop
[01:23] <Rocha> TheMuso, i'll wait for the final release
[01:23] <kent> jimi, thanks.  Then all i can say is that the pre-release Im running right now is very nice :) Ive had no problem at all.
[01:23] <Rocha> kent: Ubuntu is the best linux distro ever :)
[01:24] <Rocha> TheMuso, thanks
[01:24] <jimi> =)
[01:24] <Rocha> kent, there are some things that I don't like, but in general, it's the best.
[01:24] <uman> it surely has some nice artwork
[01:25] <jimi> daniels, are you there?
[01:25] <Rocha> There are some little things that should be corrected though.
[01:25] <kent> Rocha, i like the fact that you get a fine configured gnome desktop in just a few clicks. A graphical installation would be nice, though.
[01:25] <TheMuso> Rocha: The best thing to do is to through the CD in, and boot from it. WHen you get the Ubuntu logo on screen, press the F1 key and read the instructions there. That will lead you to various options that can be entered. There is too much to be listed on here.
[01:26] <Rocha> With just a few clicks? You don't even have to click anywhere, the default installation rocks. :-)
[01:26] <jimi> rocha : install problem?
[01:26] <jimi> my install process fails too
[01:26] <Rocha> jimi, not at home, my at my lab yes.
[01:26] <TheMuso> Rocha: maybe you need to enter options such as noapic or nolapic
[01:26] <jimi> im gonna try with another cd, i think
[01:26] <Rocha> This computer is where I do compiler investigation.
[01:27] <Rocha> TheMuso, ok, i'll try that after lunch
[01:27] <jimi> but it works fine without network, but with network, base-install process fails when trying to install kernel package
[01:27] <TheMuso> jimi: Well just install off the CD, and choose to not install software from the net, and try and get the network set up post-install.
[01:28] <Rocha> I just use this computer for java development, not as a desktop so any linux distro works.
[01:28] <jimi> i will
[01:28] <Rocha> But I just wanted to install ubuntu to show to my collegues here.
[01:29] <jimi> but i would rather wait the bugfix and get a flawless install process =)
[01:32] <rexiboy> hello all
[01:33] <rexiboy> trying to get firewire workin, can some 1 point in the right direction plz?
[01:35] <Hmmmmm_> guys when's warty due?
[01:35] <Noodles> 2 days IIRC.
[01:35] <sanitario> the schedule says tomorrow, right?
[01:35] <robtaylor> yo. so, if i want to make a custom live cd using ubuntu as my base, whats the best place to start?
[01:35] <sanitario> hm, 20th
[01:35] <Hmmmmm_> Noodles, if i download and innstall the beta version can i then upgrade to the final release?
[01:36] <Noodles> Yes.
[01:36] <Noodles> There should be very few, if any, changes between now and release.
[01:36] <Hmmmmm_> can i then just apt-get the updates?
[01:37] <Noodles> Aye.
[01:37] <Hmmmmm_> is gnome 2.8 stable in warty?
[01:37] <kent> Hmmmmm_, yes. I have had no problems at all with gnome.
[01:37] <Hmmmmm_> kent, thnx
[01:38] <Hmmmmm_> fedora just sucks sooooo much memory that i wana dump it
[01:38] <Hmmmmm_> i just want my mails to be safe
[01:38] <Hmmmmm_> how do i back up evolution 1.46 mails?
[01:39] <Hmmmmm_> can i just "cp -a /home/user/.evolution"?
[01:40] <kent> Hmmmmm_, Fedora should not differ that much in memory usage. Since if you run gnome from Ubuntu and gnome from Fedora it should be mostly the same +- some patches which should not make any difference..
[01:41] <Hmmmmm_> kent, actually i felt a sea change is speed after i installed ubuntu
[01:41] <maswan>
[01:42] <maswan> oops
[01:42] <maswan> I meant:
[01:42] <Hmmmmm_> i hav a 1.1 gig celeron machine with 256 mb of RAM. fc2 runs S-L-O-W
[01:42] <Hmmmmm_>
[01:42] <maswan> daniels: on a not so awesome note, about half the time I don't come back up from suspend
[01:42] <Hmmmmm_> and ubuntu just zipz
[01:42] <Hmmmmm_> i duno why... frankly i dont care why
[01:42] <daniels> maswan: have you got centrino wireless?
[01:42] <Hmmmmm_> im moving to ubuntu
[01:42] <maswan> daniels: yes
[01:42] <Hmmmmm_> always wanted to move to debian but felt too lazy to install it
[01:42] <daniels> maswan: ahr, bong
[01:43] <maswan> daniels: translation needed. :)
[01:43] <daniels> maswan: will put up -0ubuntu2 or -2 or whatever with the fix soon
[01:43] <daniels> maswan: bong -> crack
[01:43] <maswan> daniels: thanks :)
[01:45] <rexiboy> so the stable release will be much the same as this one?
[01:45] <rexiboy> apt-get update should do the trick?
[01:46] <TheMuso> daniels: What suspend to disk features are your X40 packages using, or do they not yet support suspend-to-disk?
[01:46] <Hmmmmm_> rexiboy, i think "apt-get upgrade" ought to do the trick. correct me if i'm wrong
[01:47] <daniels> TheMuso: they just suspend to ram.  it uses 5% of battery every 8 hours.  just today, I ran the battery to 0, then kept watching a movie for half an hour (after it hit zero, after it fired an annoying three-beep pattern at me a couple of times, after the two-beep pattern), and it kept on going; after that, it was in s3 (suspend-to-ram) for about ... maybe an hour.
[01:47] <rexiboy> Hmmmmm_, that's good, because I got everything working and would like to keep it like this...:)
[01:48] <Hmmmmm_> can anyone pls tell me how i can backup my evolution 1.4.6 mail so I can happily move to ubuntu?
[01:48] <daniels> unless you have a desperate need to hibernate for like a week, there's not much point :)
[01:48] <janl> just 5%?
[01:48] <TheMuso> daniels: Hmmm. Know of any way that I may be able to test whether the suspend to ram scripts would be as effective on an R50?
[01:49] <daniels> janl: right
[01:49] <janl> so if my battery is fully unloaded after one nights suspend, ive got a problem?
[01:49] <daniels> TheMuso: measure battery charge.  suspend to ram.  time.  resume.  measure battery charge again.
[01:49] <daniels> janl: running on an x40?
[01:49] <janl> no, R51
[01:50] <sanitario> daniels: so your usb doesn't get b0rked after a suspend?
[01:50] <vrln> daniels: do you know if the nv driver will support the geforce 6800 at some point? the current nv driver in xorg and xfree86 doesn't work
[01:50] <rexiboy> any ideas how to get firewire workin?
[01:50] <uman> try the nvidia one then
[01:51] <zahm1> anyone know a good radeon-drivers howto for 9600xt?
[01:51] <daniels> sanitario: the scripts have rmmod ehci_hcd and modprobe ehci_hcd, in them
[01:51] <janl> daniels: 100% loaded, new battery, suspened around 10pm. 8am next morning the battery is completly empty
[01:51] <vrln> uman: yes it works perfectly of course, but I was just wondering since it would be nice to be able to use the open source one too
[01:51] <daniels> zahm1: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverHowto
[01:51] <zahm1> (y)thx
[01:51] <daniels> janl: are you using the thinkpad-x40-support package?  http://people.ubuntu.com/~daniels/x40/
[01:52] <janl> daniels: ah no, sorry, maybe i just hijacked your discussion with maswan that was very x40-specific :)
[01:52] <sanitario> daniels: oh, ok... but it loads properly when you resume?
[01:52] <daniels> janl: heh, yeah, it's quite x40-specific, sorry :)
[01:52] <daniels> sanitario: yeah, absolutely
[01:53] <maswan> janl: you don't have a x40? pfft. :P
[01:53] <janl> maswan: :)
[01:53] <sanitario> daniels: that's so unfair :/
[01:54] <janl> everything works perfectly (except for that damn softmodem), except that it seems to use alot of power while suspended
[01:55] <daniels> janl: what sort of laptop is it?
[01:55] <janl> daniels: thinkpad r51
[01:55] <daniels> janl: unless you're explicitly doing echo 3 > /proc/acpi/sleep, you're not actually suspending :) just turning off the cpu
[01:56] <janl> daniels: that exactly what im doing :)
[01:57] <janl> daniels: and if i rmmod ehci_hcd first, it even actually suspend :) and no trouble waking up later
[01:59] <sani> woohoo, it works
[01:59] <ondrej> g'afternoon
[02:00] <ondrej> what I miss in ubuntu is some better support for road warriors :-( I use my nb at two locations at work (eth0/static and eth0/dhcp), at home (usb CDMA modem)
[02:00] <janl> daniels: could the "_bios"-part in acpi_sleep have something to do with it perhaps?
[02:00] <ondrej> and it's hell to reconfigure my interfaces each time I change location
[02:00] <shady> what does modprob FATAL error Inserting hw_random means ?
[02:00] <daniels> janl: shouldn't be
[02:00] <daniels> but give it a shot
[02:01] <daniels> shady: not a problem
[02:01] <shady> daniels: what do you mean not a problem i get very nervous when I see "FATAL" something :/
[02:02] <janl> daniels: ill do that, thanks!
[02:02] <daniels> janl: hm weird, are you just using acpi-support, or acpi-support-x40?
[02:02] <Kamion> it's FATAL to modprobe itself, but not to the system as a whole
[02:02] <shady> so there's nothing I'm suppose to do to fix that ? just learn to live with that ?
[02:02] <daniels> shady: it means someone was sloppy and forgot to tell modprobe to be quiet; basically, modprobe's saying 'I couldn't do what you asked me to', but what modprobe was asked to wasn't critical to the system
[02:02] <daniels> shady: just irnore it, yeah
[02:02] <daniels> janl: no worries
[02:03] <daniels> janl: google is often your friend for stuff like that.  with so many wacky kernels around, you often get advice covering every conceivable situation, as I did with the x40.
[02:04] <shady> ok, another problem I installed ubuntu twice and I got the same weird partition problem solveable only by testdisk
[02:04] <janl> daniels: yeah, ive search around some, but haven't found any hints, just people having trouble waking up from suspend
[02:05] <janl> daniels: but ill try the s3bios-thingie
[02:05] <daniels> janl: ah, heh
[02:05] <daniels> janl: try removing all the modules you can
[02:05] <daniels> and just see if you can track down which module is the problem
[02:06] <daniels> ipw2[12] 00 is known to be a problem
[02:06] <janl> daniels: ah,, have though of that..i just though i was done with the rmmod:ing when i got it working at all
[02:06] <janl> daniels: aah, ive got a ipw2200, that probably the problem!
[02:07] <maswan> daniels: you just need every laptop manufacturer give you a laptop of all the different configs and models.. hmm.. and an hour or two of every day extra for hackery. :)
[02:07] <janl> maswan: du ocks helsld p ubuntu?
[02:08] <maswan> janl: nepps, hpc2n fortfarande
[02:08] <maswan> oh, helsld, inte heltid. :)
[02:08] <maswan> janl: well, it's like debian, but stuff just works. :)
[02:08] <maswan> Mithrandir: you're late :)
[02:08] <janl> maswan: yepp :)
[02:09] <Mithrandir> maswan: nah, I was before on my screen, slow IRC net, you know. :)
[02:10] <maswan> Mithrandir: ok, so we need a free and independant poll to answer this importan question
[02:11] <JanneM> janl: what chipset is it in that laptop?
[02:11] <Mithrandir> maswan :)
[02:12] <sanitario> ok, now my usb works after suspend, but not my pcmcia
[02:12] <janl> JanneM: well, um...lspci says something about  82855PM
[02:12] <JanneM> ok
[02:12] <JanneM> wonder how close that is to a 855GME
[02:13] <JanneM> janl: you have 802.11a, b and g?
[02:13] <janl> JanneM: im a little bit suspicious, the back side of the computer is still warm during suspend
[02:13] <janl> JanneM: g
[02:14] <JanneM> ok
[02:14] <JanneM> 1.1Ghz, or is it faster?
[02:14] <janl> JanneM: and the wireless-LED dosnt turn off when i rmmod ipw2200
[02:14] <JanneM> janl: it should not stay warm, no
[02:14] <daniels> janl: try running ifconfig eth1 down, first
[02:14] <janl> JanneM: 1600
[02:15] <janl> daniels: no difference, still on
[02:15] <janl> hm, right now, the ipw2200 is my main suspect... :)
[02:16] <uman> wlan can suck some power
[02:17] <daniels> janl: ah well
[02:17] <daniels> yeah
[02:17] <sabdfl> janl: i have problems with the ipw2200 on a test toshiba laptop, i don't think the driver is very mature
[02:17] <sabdfl> hmm.. latest version is ipw2200
[02:18] <janl> oh, just to be clear, the led turns off when i suspend, but just not immediatly when i rmmod
[02:18] <uman> sabdfl: I think most linux drivers just try to get it working
[02:18] <uman> the advanced stuff might be hard to implement due to lack of information from the manufacturer
[02:18] <janl> im running ipw2200 0.10
[02:19] <janl> maybe ill just be patient and wait for the driver to mature
[02:19] <Mitario> hmm, are there any ideas to have a somewhat more user friendly update mechanism for ubuntu?
[02:19] <uman> I use wlan with ndiswrapper and the windows driver
[02:19] <shady> where is the list of the sources for the packges in ubuntu ?
[02:19] <Mitario> i'm writing some UI mockups here, but i don't know if anyone else has already started this
[02:20] <uman> but because it's a desktop system I've never looked at power savinf
[02:20] <uman> saving
[02:20] <|trey|> shady: /etc/apt/sources.list
[02:20] <uman> UI mockups ?
[02:20] <Mitario> yeah, as in, a more user friendly UI to ge updates
[02:20] <uman> so you are designing some frontend ?
[02:21] <Mitario> i mean, how the hell should a windows newbie switched to ubuntu know that it should start synaptic, click on refresh, click on 'mark packages with newer version' and click apply
[02:21] <janl> but ive got some starting points now, s3bios and rmmod ipw2200, we'll see tomorrow when i wake up if they help :)
[02:21] <uman> I agree
[02:21] <mvo_> Mitario: try "synaptic --upgrade-mode"
[02:21] <uman> I think that is what I like most about the idea of ubuntu, to make an easy to use distribution
[02:22] <uman> I always though it'd be nice to have some "
[02:22] <uman> "drag&drop" package management
[02:22] <uman> people could just pull of a package from some site, and it'd install all the deps without them having to do much
[02:23] <uman> and you could show the deps in some tree of nodes or such,and it getting each node
[02:23] <Mitario> mvo_, I would rather have some easy status page/app with a list of security updates or program updates somewhere ;)
[02:23] <Mitario> which could then call 'synaptic --upgrade-mode' for that matter
[02:24] <uman> I think in the end people would like some graphical representation of a package manager
[02:25] <uman> as nice as it is for geeks, most people don't want to have to deal with CLI
[02:25] <Mitario> uman, well, synaptic is graphical : )
[02:25] <mvo_> Mitario: I'm interessted to see your mock-ups. there is a tray-icon based upgrade-notifier in development: http://people.debian.org/~mvo/upgrade-notifier-0.32.tar.gz
[02:25] <Mitario> mvo_, ok, i'll announce then as soon as they are ready :)
[02:26] <mvo_> Mitario: please do :)
[02:26] <uman> so it'll show up when there are updates available ?
[02:26] <uman> in your tray ?
[02:26] <mvo_> Mitario: will the mockups be glade files ?
[02:26] <mvo_> uman: yes
[02:27] <uman> very good
[02:27] <Mitario> mvo_, i think i'll just make some .pngs first :)
[02:27] <mvo_> uman: double clicking on it will present you a list of upgradeable packages
[02:27] <Mitario> with some global ideas
[02:27] <mvo_> Mitario: fine as well. I'm looking forward to it!
[02:27] <uman> mvo_: this assumes that the upgrade will work... what happens if there is a problem during it ?
[02:28] <JanneM> if there is a problem the system can't resolve by itself, stuf is broken and will need human assistance in some form
[02:28] <mvo_> uman: that's a tricky one. in general it will work as good as apt-get (and that's pretty good).
[02:28] <uman> ok
[02:29] <JanneM> one way would be to roll back the update and wait a wef hours
[02:29] <mvo_> synapitc supports this with the menu item "Fix broken packages"
[02:29] <uman> as far as I understand, ubuntu is heading for a distribution that is user friendly
[02:29] <Mitario> mvo_, going to integrate your upgrade-notifier in the mockups too, so i'll try that one out first :)
[02:29] <JanneM> often a problem is due to some temporary problem on the server
[02:29] <uman> as much as I prefer to change things in the guts, I see the need for such a distribution
[02:29] <mvo_> Mitario: it should work ok, but it's in a early stage, so please tell me about any problems you may have
[02:30] <Mitario> mvo_, sure :)
[02:30] <mvo_> JanneM: agreed, good point!
[02:30] <uman> I'll have to install ubuntu and give it a test drive
[02:30] <TheMuso> uman: You will indeed.
[02:31] <Mitario> uman, be ware: you would be able to turn back from the uberbeautifulness of ubuntu
[02:31] <Mitario> will not*
[02:32] <Mitario> mvo_, is it a daemon <-> app which puts a widget in the tray via libegg or is it an applet?
[02:33] <mvo_> it's a daemon that uses libegg
[02:33] <Mitario> ok
[02:33] <mvo_> we discussed about using a applet, but we agreed on going with a tray icon
[02:34] <Mitario> right decision IMO, this way you could use it X-desktop environment
[02:34] <mvo_> yes and you usually want the information only if upgradable packages are available
[02:35] <Mitario> so eum, what's the way to test it ? don't have any upgradable packages atm :)
[02:35] <trip_out> hi guys - i have a little problem when trying to burn an iso using nautilus.  Basically the iso file seems to get registered with another app the moment I right click on it.  I see the write to CD option for less then a second, then the icon changes from a cd to a gnome foot and the option disapears.  any ideas?
[02:36] <Mithrandir> trip_out: which architecture are you on?
[02:36] <trip_out> amd64
[02:36] <Mithrandir> argh, I thought seb128 had fixed that bug.
[02:36] <mvo_> Mitario: tricky :)
[02:36] <trip_out> maybe - im doing apt-get upgrade as i speak
[02:36] <Mitario> mvo_, hehe :)
[02:36] <Mithrandir> the problem is that amd64 actually does what the code tells it to so it misidentifies .iso files as .arc files.
[02:36] <seb128> Mithrandir: the fix is not trivial
[02:37] <trip_out> ok....
[02:37] <mvo_> Mitario: I can make you a screenshot from my box (plenty of upgrades needed)
[02:37] <Mithrandir> seb128: sure it is, remove the x-arc entry, since it's wrong.
[02:37] <Mitario> mvo_, yeah, would be great :)
[02:37] <trip_out> so im gonna have to install k3b or something
[02:37] <seb128> Mithrandir: the entry is right
[02:38] <Mithrandir> seb128: no, it's not. :)
[02:38] <trip_out> hehe
[02:38] <Mithrandir> seb128: do the math by hand and you see it doesn't make any sense.
[02:39] <seb128> Mithrandir: the code is wrong
[02:39] <seb128> wait, I'm looking for the upstream bug
[02:39] <Mitario> mvo_, i have to go shopping, be back in about 15mins
[02:39] <mvo_> Mitario: ok, just ping me when you are back
[02:39] <Mitario> mvo_, k, ty
[02:40] <Mithrandir> seb128: tell me how       <match value="0x0000081a" type="little32" offset="0" mask="0x8080ffff"/>
[02:40] <trip_out> on another completely seperate issue, does anyone know how i can switch the default sound card?
[02:40] <Mithrandir> makes any sense?
[02:40] <uman> the bit I'm getting at is that I'd like to help the spread of linux and ubuntu seems to fill the gap of an easily used linux distro
[02:41] <uman> sorry for the long dealy, had some phone conversation going
[02:41] <trip_out> i have an onboard chip which has the system uses, yet I want the PCI card to be used instead.  It is seem in the Gnome mixer - I just can't use it
[02:41] <uman> trip_out: can you disable the onboard card in the bios ?
[02:41] <seb128> Mithrandir: https://freedesktop.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1507
[02:42] <trip_out> yes - but i don't really want to. ultimatly i want to be able to switch between the two as i have headphones connected to the onboard one for late nights:)
[02:43] <Mithrandir> seb128: no, that's not the problem.
[02:43] <uman> trip_out: you could recompile your kernel with those sound support as modules
[02:43] <moose6589> hello
[02:43] <uman> then just load the one you want to use
[02:43] <Mithrandir> seb128: the problem is you are using strtol, not strtoul.
[02:43] <seb128> Mithrandir: this one is http://freedesktop.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1506
[02:43] <seb128> Mithrandir: these are 2 differents issues
[02:44] <Mithrandir> sure.
[02:44] <trip_out> i expect they are already modules, i was wonderring if there was a simple text file that makes one card default
[02:44] <moose6589> heh i'm a linux noob, i just have simple question.. i've been trying to install gaim 1.0.1, so i extract to a folder, navigate there using cd, then type ./configure
[02:44] <finn_> is there a guide somewhere for how to upgrade a kernel 'the ubuntu way'?  i'm trying to get ndiswrapper working and apprently first i need to upgrade the kernel.  i've tried googling and the wiki didn't seem to have anything on this
[02:44] <uman> trip_out: probably the startup I'd assume
[02:44] <Mithrandir> seb128: can you please remove x-arc modules as it (as you can see) breaks cd burning on amd64?
[02:44] <uman> whatever gets loaded first rules
[02:45] <Treenaks> moose6589: you'll want to use the gaim package, compiling is not necessary
[02:45] <moose6589> it says no acceptable C compiler found in $PATH
[02:45] <trip_out> i'll have a little play in a bit - thanks uman
[02:45] <seb128> Mithrandir: you just want to remove the mime entry for it as a workaround ?
[02:45] <Mithrandir> seb128: yes; arc packages are _very_ rare.
[02:45] <seb128> ok
[02:45] <uman> finn_: are you sure that the kernel needs updating ?
[02:45] <moose6589> but my question is actually compiling in general..
[02:45] <moose6589> it doesn't ever seem to work
[02:45] <finn_> well, the wiki entry on getting ndiswrapper to work says that i need to
[02:45] <Mithrandir> seb128: I agree it's not the right fix, but it means we won't see this particular instance of the problem, and it's too late to fix it properly now.
[02:45] <JanneM> what _is_ an arc package? I don't think I've ever encountered it
[02:45] <uman> kernel >2.4.23 should be fine for ndiswrapper
[02:46] <Treenaks> moose6589: you'll most likely want the package, either from main or universal, but if you REALLY want to compile, apt-get install build-essential
[02:46] <trip_out> Mithrandir: whats my fix then?
[02:46] <Mithrandir> JanneM: ancient packaging format, similar to zip.
[02:46] <JanneM> ok
[02:46] <trip_out> aah thats why archiver tries it...
[02:46] <Mithrandir> trip_out: remove the section which starts with "  <mime-type type="application/x-arc">"
[02:46] <Treenaks> I used to download .arc files from BBSes using xmodem 8)
[02:46] <Mithrandir> in /usr/share/mime/packages/freedesktop.org.xml and then run sudo update-mime-database
[02:46] <seb128> Mithrandir: agreed
[02:46] <trip_out> from where?
[02:46] <trip_out> thnx
[02:46] <JanneM> i'm from that time as well, and I can't remember seeing it
[02:46] <uman> finn_: what kernel version do you have now ?
[02:47] <opi^work> Treenaks: BBS, eh? Good o' memories ;)
[02:47] <moose6589> ok
[02:47] <Treenaks> opi^work: I used to be 2:283/507.4 on fido :)
[02:47] <opi^work> I couldn't get to Fido ;)
[02:47] <finn_> uman, the stock one that comes with warthog RC, and installing ndiswrapper-utils wasn't enough to get ndiswrapper to work
[02:48] <uman> for wlan you'll need ndiswrapper and wireless-tuils
[02:48] <uman> utils
[02:48] <uman> I don't know how ubuntu does it... maybe I SHOULD install it, heh
[02:48] <finn_> uman, it complained about a missing module or something, and http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/helpcenterhowto.2004-10-07.7773155363 says i need linux-image-<IP_ADDRESS>-3* or later
[02:49] <uman> I've used ndiswrapper with 2.4. kernels fine
[02:49] <trip_out> ?? Usage: update-mime-database [-hv]  MIME-DIR
[02:49] <uman> as long as they were 2.4.23 or later
[02:49] <lax> Hi, i installed Ubuntu RC1 and everything went fine in stage 1 installation, but when i rebooted into the stage 2 installation everything was fine until i got an error about ubuntu was not able to install all the packages. Then an aptitude window came and showed me the missing packages. I don't wan't to download all them. Can somebody help me?
[02:49] <finn_> the wireless config part isn't the problem, ndiswrapper isn't being happy (and i managed to get it working with gentoo)
[02:49] <trip_out> do it on /usr/share/mime/packages/ ?
[02:50] <uman> finn_: I'll better stop blabbing, I'm not eaving running ubunti
[02:50] <uman> ubuntu
[02:50] <uman> I shall soon, though
[02:50] <Mithrandir> trip_out: /usr/bin/update-mime-database /usr/share/mime
[02:50] <Rocha> Why does Ubuntu use the gnome icon theme instead of "Human" ?
[02:50] <finn_> that's cool, i'd be running it right now if i could work out how to get my wireless card working with it... laptop with no net connection is like a large paperweight
[02:51] <uman> I still use crux atm
[02:51] <uman> finn_: if you want a nice live CD, mepis has working ndiswrapper and wireless tools
[02:51] <uman> hehe
[02:52] <dyn> i'd love to see the gonxical gtk theme being shipped at least if not even default
[02:52] <dyn> as well as the gartoon icon theme
[02:52] <dyn> the most lovely ones for gnome
[02:52] <trip_out> that did it thanks! Just one more... How do I blanks a CDRW?
[02:52] <lax>  Hi, i installed Ubuntu RC1 and everything went fine in stage 1 installation, but when i rebooted into the stage 2 installation everything was fine until i got an error about ubuntu was not able to install all the packages. Then an aptitude window came and showed me the missing or broken packages. I don't wan't to download all them, they were about 2 gb i think. And that's the reason i can't use ubuntu in text mode i think. Can somebody help me?
[02:52] <dyn> trip_out: cdrecord dev=<whatyougot> blank=fast
[02:53] <Rocha> trip_out, in gnome 2.6 you can't blank a cdrom, you have to use the command line
[02:53] <Rocha> trip_out, maybe in gnome 2.8 they have corrected that bug
[02:53] <thom> Rocha: the human theme isn't complete yet
[02:54] <Rocha> thom, will it be in the final release?
[02:54] <uman> ah, ftpgnome.org is back up :)
[02:54] <thom> so we're using gnome for now
[02:54] <maswan> uman: it was down?
[02:54] <thom> probably not, i think
[02:54] <uman> well, I had problems getting into it
[02:54] <uman> 2 hours ago
[02:54] <uman> is fine now
[02:54] <trip_out> okay, thanks - thought this was 2.8
[02:54] <TheMuso_> What distro are you using trip_out
[02:54] <trip_out> ubuntu
[02:55] <TheMuso_> ubuntu has 2.8
[02:55] <trip_out> thats what i thought!
[02:55] <trip_out> its gonna be a long day today i can tell ;)
[02:55] <TheMuso_> That was one of the main reasons I switched from Slackware to Ubuntu on my laptop.
[02:56] <trip_out> i hosed a Gentoo install, good opertunity!
[02:56] <TheMuso_> Is it possible to kill old nicks that crapped out?
[02:56] <uman> gome should lump some stuff together
[02:57] <maswan> uman: ok, I see no signs of a problem around that time either
[02:57] <uman> maybe it's just me
[02:57] <maswan> uman: had you said a couple of days ago...
[02:57] <|radio> TheMuso usually pinging it helps, causes timeout on the server
[02:58] <maswan> uman: we've had a few stability problems, so..
[02:58] <uman> my ISP's proxy is sometimes a bit weird
[03:01] <TheMuso> bbs
[03:01] <trip_out> that doesn't seem to blank it - either that or nautilus doesn't see that it is blank
[03:06] <lucas_> hi
[03:08] <mirak_-> hi hi hi
[03:08] <lucas_> isn't the meeting supposed to be now ?
[03:08] <lucas_> what time is it UTC speaking ? :)
[03:08] <mirak_-> lucas_, 1 more hour
[03:08] <Treenaks> ma okt 18 13:08:42 UTC 2004
[03:08] <lucas_> oh ok
[03:08] <Rocha> There are some bugs with the localization of Ubuntu
[03:08] <Treenaks> "TZ=UTC date"
[03:09] <Rocha> I have to change XF86Config by hand to set the keyboard to portuguese
[03:09] <mirak_-> rocha, what is different about the keyboard layouts????
[03:09] <Treenaks> Rocha: no, you can use dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 for that
[03:09] <mirak_-> rocha, I have only seen us keyboards
[03:10] <uman> :has used a german keybaord
[03:10] <uman> keyboard
[03:10] <Rocha> I have a portuguese keyboard, and XF86Config should have set the keyboard to "pt", not "us"
[03:11] <Rocha> Treenaks, thanks
[03:11] <uman> Rocha: maybe you should become part of ubuntu then
[03:11] <uman> get involved
[03:11] <Rocha> That would be great
[03:12] <lucas_> Rocha: which language did you selected during install ?
[03:12] <seraph> whiprush, rawr
[03:12] <Rocha> I'm a bit busy right actually because I'm doing functional languages research
[03:12] <whiprush> yo
[03:12] <Rocha> lucas_, english
[03:13] <Rocha> But I set the keyboard to portuguese
[03:13] <lucas_> Rocha: that's why it selected the us keyboard
[03:13] <lucas_> mmh
[03:13] <Rocha> lucas_, but the command line (bash) is set to portuguese
[03:13] <lucas_> oh
[03:13] <lucas_> you might want to file a bug then
[03:13] <Rocha> lucas_, ok, i have filed 2 already today :)
[03:13] <__daniel> Rocha, you did   dpkg-reconfigure locales  ?
[03:14] <seraph> I have a question, what is "bouncing cow"
[03:14] <seraph> I've not seen this one yet
[03:14] <Rocha> __daniel, nop, I never used a debian linux
[03:14] <Treenaks> seraph: it's a screensaver
[03:14] <__daniel> Rocha, sorry, didnt read the whole discussion
[03:14] <lucas_> file it against xserver-xfree86 and say you are not sure about the package you should file against :)
[03:14] <seraph> ah ok
[03:14] <Treenaks> seraph: the picture of a cow, bouncing on an off-screen trampoline
[03:14] <__daniel> Rocha, well, try it :-)
[03:14] <Rocha> I have never used the dpkg system.
[03:14] <lucas_> Rocha: no need to dpkg-reconfigure locales
[03:14] <lucas_> it is not a locales problem.
[03:14] <Rocha> Always redhat, suse, and now fedora, which all use rpm
[03:15] <lucas_> __daniel: basically, locales are for output, not input :)
[03:15] <__daniel> lucas_, sorry - well didnt read the whole conversation - it's the way i configured my box to have different locales
[03:15] <__daniel> lucas_, sure? :-)
[03:15] <lucas_> __daniel: yes.
[03:15] <Rocha> I just changed the keyboard to "pt" and then gnome says that the X configuration is different from Gnome's and asks me which I want to use.
[03:16] <crabbox> Rocha: use the x one
[03:16] <Rocha> crabbox, yes, I did that.
[03:16] <tseng> hm, looks like stuff in debian mallirat is getting ahead of warty
[03:16] <Rocha> but the problem is that my mom wouldn't know how to change that.
[03:16] <tseng> has anyone backported?
[03:16] <mirak_-> why does it say that I cant join #ubuntu (you need a registered nick) but it lets me in anyways????
[03:17] <lucas_> Rocha: don't forget to reportbug, it's important to improve ubuntu's quality
[03:17] <Rocha> And the wonderfull thing about Ubuntu is that my mom actually could use it.
[03:17] <lucas_> Rocha: I think the problem is X guess the keyboard to use using the language you selected during install
[03:18] <Rocha> Everytime I want to test a Linux distro, I use my family :-)
[03:18] <Rocha> They don't know how to use windows, so they are great test subjects.
[03:19] <__daniel> Rocha, i wish i could say that about my family :-)
[03:19] <Rocha> :D
[03:19] <staticactivity> after i made an apt-get upgrade, the permissions of .ICEauthority file changed to root:root, I had to Ctrl-Alt-F1 and change the permission manually
[03:19] <staticactivity> i was not able to login otherwise
[03:19] <Rocha> One of the things that i reported is that the usb pen drive contents pops up when i insert it, but when i close the window, there is no way of knowing how to open it again.
[03:19] <Treenaks> staticactivity: did you run a program as root?
[03:20] <Treenaks> staticactivity: an X program ?
[03:20] <__daniel> does anyone in here use any arabic locale?
[03:20] <Treenaks> Rocha: the icon is on the desktop
 yeah, gedit i guess
[03:20] <Rocha> Treenaks, no its not, at least on my computer.
[03:20] <uman> Rocha: maybe there should be an icon on the desktop ?
[03:20] <Treenaks> staticactivity: that's the problem then
[03:20] <Rocha> uman, an icon on the desktop or an entry in Computer->Disks
 but with sudo
[03:21] <Treenaks> staticactivity: still..
[03:21] <uman> I presonally don't like this automounting stuff
[03:21] <uman> but I guess it's nice for newbs
 okay, thanks for clearing that
[03:21] <Rocha> Since Ubuntu doesn't use the desktop for displaying icons, it should only be in "Disks"
[03:21] <uman> ok
[03:21] <Rocha> Automounting is great :)
[03:21] <Treenaks> Rocha: no the desktop does show mounted disks by default
[03:21] <JanneM> uman: I like it. I always manage to forget exactly how to access all the various gadgets I got
[03:22] <Rocha> Treenaks, strange, my pen drive didn't show up.
[03:22] <uman> I like it if it doensn't show extra icons
[03:22] <Rocha> I had to open /media/sda1 and create a link on the desktop
[03:22] <Treenaks> Rocha: strange
[03:22] <uman> but I should really shut up, I haven't even installed ubuntu
[03:22] <Rocha> uman, yup, its a great ideia
[03:22] <uman> I just came in here because I liked the artwork
[03:22] <TheMuso> ISP upstream carrier outages are wonderful. :)
[03:22] <tvon> uman: heh
[03:23] <Rocha> The artwork is of minor importance, the usability is what counts.
[03:23] <uman> the two young women and the man are now my wallpaper
[03:23] <uman> VERY god
[03:23] <uman> Rocha: true
[03:23] <Rocha> The first thing i changed was the wallpaper :D
[03:23] <tvon|x31> I'm not so into the brown in general
[03:23] <Rocha> Gnome 2.8 is a masterpiece in usability
[03:23] <lucas_> I find it inappropriate for most usages
[03:24] <Treenaks> Rocha: wait for 2.10 :)
[03:24] <uman> Rocha: I agree, linux has advanced to a stage where it should be easy to use
[03:24] <uman> and it's mostly not done due to lazyness
[03:24] <jimi> 2.1 ?
[03:25] <Rocha> jimi, 2.10
[03:25] <uman> it's the job of the geek to make it easier for the noob
[03:25] <sanitario> two dot ten
[03:25] <uman> not to be elitist
[03:25] <tvon|x31> versions are not not decimal numbers
[03:25] <jimi> wheres the gnome roadmap, to see the features? :)
[03:26] <Rocha> www.gnome.org maybe
[03:26] <jimi> heh
[03:26] <jimi> ok ;)
[03:26] <tvon|x31> somewhere from developer.gnome.org
[03:27] <JanneM> I think the brown, earthy, color range is very calming and comforting
[03:27] <JanneM> didn't realize how much I actually dislike blue/gray until I started ubuntu
[03:27] <Rocha> The colours of ubuntu are great
[03:27] <Rocha> JanneM, :)
[03:28] <uman> it's also very warm/human/earthy
[03:28] <dyn> and a bit boring too maybe
[03:28] <dyn> after a longer time
[03:28] <JanneM> I'm a bit conflicted; I like the color theme, but at the same time I have a favourite background image that is bluish
[03:28] <uman> there have been too many cold blue themes
[03:28] <JanneM> mm
[03:28] <Rocha> I have some C stuff to code, bye ppl, nice talking to you.
[03:28] <mirak_-> rocha, you will mis the meeting
[03:28] <mirak_-> miss*
[03:28] <jimi> bye rocha!
[03:29] <Rocha> What meeting mirak?
[03:29] <uman> what's the UTC now ?
[03:29] <jimi> meeting about artwork?
[03:29] <mirak_-> artwork meeting,,,,,,,starts on 30 mins
[03:29] <Treenaks> uman: TZ=UTC date
[03:29] <jimi> oh
[03:29] <jimi> cool =]
[03:29] <mirak_-> well 30-ish mins
[03:29] <uman> I shall just stay here to witness it
[03:29] <uman> how long will it go ?
[03:29] <Rocha> ok, i'll just become away instead
[03:29] <dyn> everyone's invited?
[03:29] <Rocha> 14:29 here
[03:29] <jimi> i dont have lot to say, but will gladly read the meeting
[03:30] <Rocha> I don't think i'm using utc
[03:30] <mirak_-> dyn, I would assume so, it is a public channel
[03:30] <dyn> i've seen irc meetings with voice control on
[03:30] <JanneM> anybody can be here, yes
[03:30] <Keybuk> jimi: GNOME releases aren't feature-based, they're time based
[03:30] <dyn> channel +v, few ppl talks :)
[03:30] <JanneM> not sure how they'll organize it, though
[03:30] <Keybuk> so the features in 2.10 will be any that are finished in time
[03:30] <Rocha> mirak_, i'll be here for the meeting, you can count on me
[03:30] <dyn> that's why i asked
[03:30] <mirak_-> rocha, I just didn't want you to miss it...................
[03:30] <jimi> keybuck : hum ok.. thats why i cant find it on the site hehe
[03:31] <janl> i have a question about about automounting. I have a small UMS-device, it mounts just fine, and the icon pop up and everything works. However, when i try to unmount the volumy through nautilus, it fails, complaining that the device is busy. Some investigation shows that famd is holding the device.
[03:31] <JanneM> dyn:  if they do, I expect it is only to run messages through a coordinator so people don't all shout at the same time
[03:31] <janl> any idea how to tell famd in a nice way to let go of the device?
[03:31] <Rocha> mirak_, when it starts you can write my nick, it highlights
[03:31] <JanneM> janl: thought that had been fixed?
[03:31] <janl> ive killed famd manually a couple of times.. and google dosn't help much
[03:31] <mirak_-> rocha, rocha, no prob
[03:32] <uman> janl: you might want to try running sync
[03:32] <mirak_-> rocha, if im not too busy, as I am at work atm
[03:32] <uman> janl: if there is still data in the write buffer it won't umount
[03:32] <Rocha> mirak_, i'll try to pay attention
[03:32] <jimi> uman : umount isnt suppose to sync itself?
[03:32] <uman> no
[03:32] <jimi> oh
[03:32] <Rocha> yes it does!
[03:33] <jimi> :s
[03:33] <janl> im pretty sure ive synced, famd is the only one holding the device
[03:33] <Rocha> umount, syncs and umounts!
[03:33] <mirak_-> rocha, ad a "-" to the end of mny name....mirak_ is my name at home...use "mirak_-" here
[03:33] <Rocha> mirak_-, ok :)
[03:33] <uman> all the distros I've used you had to sync yourself first
[03:33] <JanneM> janl: that has been an old problem, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that it had been fixed
[03:33] <uman> unmount wouldn't do it by itself
[03:34] <mirak_-> rocha, nvm nothing special happens on this client to tell me you are talking to me........
[03:34] <janl> JanneM: ok,maybe i havnt tried it since the last upgrade
[03:34] <uman> a sync won't hurt anyway
[03:34] <Rocha> uman, strange! I use linux since 98 and it always synced before unmounting
[03:34] <uman> Rocha: I've found that especially flash USB drives won't sync on umount
[03:35] <Ng> it should do
[03:35] <uman> I always have to sync first
[03:35] <Rocha> uman, I don't
[03:35] <Ng> it should just hang until the writeback is flushed, then unmount
[03:35] <Ng> that's how my mp3 player behaves
[03:35] <uman> it just will say it's busy
[03:35] <Ng> (or behaved, until I started mounting it synchronously ;)
[03:35] <Ng> uman: that means there are open inodes, not that there is a buffer to write
[03:35] <Rocha> I can copy Eclipse to a pen drive, it gets virtally copied instantly, and when I unmount it, only then Eclipse gets copied.
[03:36] <Ng> Rocha: yeah. does that really annoy you? ;)
[03:36] <uman> I've jsut got so used of using sync that I don't worry
[03:36] <Rocha> Nop, I think it's the best thing ever. :)
[03:36] <uman> it'll unount fine
[03:36] <uman> umount
[03:37] <Ng> Rocha: fair enough, I found copying stuff to my mp3 player extremely annoying until I sync mounted it ;)
[03:38] <mirak_-> couldn't you just pull out the device???, or would that cuase damage?
[03:38] <Ng> if the buffer hasn't written to the device yet that will corrupt data
[03:38] <mirak_-> <-----newb sorry
[03:38] <Rocha> mirak_-, yup, that would cause damage because the files may have not been written.
[03:39] <Ng> the kernel keeps some disk data in memory to try and make the machine feel faster. when you unmount a disk it has to actually make changes to the disk itself.
[03:39] <mirak_-> rocha, but only damage to the data, corredt
[03:39] <mirak_-> correct*
[03:39] <Rocha> Yup, not physical damage.
[03:39] <mirak_-> rocha, kk
[03:39] <finn> is security.ubuntu.com down at the moment? i can't seem to do an update
[03:39] <mirak_-> rocha, good to know
[03:40] <mirak_-> finn, do you need an update, my system has no new updates needed???
[03:40] <Rocha> I don't know why I can't install ubuntu here
[03:40] <TheMuso> finn: Are you able to conenct at all? I am on WestNet in NSW, and found out that my ISP has an upstream carrier problem. It may be effecting you.
[03:40] <JanneM> with solid-state thingies like USB memories you really want to avoid writing too much anyway. Better to buffer changes until you _have_ to write it all once
[03:41] <JanneM> you only have som many write cycles, after all
[03:41] <Ng> JanneM: there is a lot of merit to that argument, but waiting 5 minutes to unmount after it already said the copy was done is too annoying imo ;)
[03:41] <finn> TheMuso, ah, that could be it.  i'm with internode, but international websites are working
[03:41] <JanneM> Ng: well, ok :)
[03:41] <Ng> JanneM: you'd have to be writing a hell of a lot to hit the limit, it's usually like 100k cycles or something ;)
[03:41] <Ng> but you are right :)
[03:42] <JanneM> isn't it more like 5-10k?
[03:42] <finn> TheMuso, no, can't ping at all
[03:42] <Rocha> Ng, just put this in your mind, "putting files in a pen drive is the same as putting files in a cd"
[03:42] <mirak_-> wow, I didn't know that you only have so many write cycles.....
[03:42] <Rocha> ...only written when you "burn" them.
[03:42] <Ng> JanneM: I guess it'd depend on the flash memory in use. I've only poked around the iPAQ, which was about 100k cycles
[03:42] <Ng> Rocha: no, because it's not the same :)
[03:42] <JanneM> mirak_-: well, you only have so many with hard drives as well...
[03:43] <Rocha> Ng, it's not the same but you can think of them as the same.
[03:43] <JanneM> mirak_-: you just generally have no idea how many until you find out the hard way
[03:43] <Rocha> Even your hard disk behaves that way
[03:43] <mirak_-> nannem, hmmm....maybe that's why on my last reformat I showed bad sectors????
[03:43] <Ng> Rico: I don't tend to unplug my hard disk and walk away though ;)
[03:43] <Rocha> You copy file x to file y and it is not actually updated
[03:43] <Ng> err
[03:43] <mirak_-> Jannem, hmmm....maybe that's why on my last reformat I showed bad sectors????
[03:43] <Ng> s/Rico/Rocha/
[03:43] <Rocha> Thats you the kernel syncs the memory with the filesystem on shutdown.
[03:43] <JanneM> mirak_-: well, possible
[03:44] <JanneM> mirak_-: anything mechanical will have a limited lifetime after all
[03:44] <mirak_-> jannem, but it was a yoper install, an I heard someone else have the same problem, so I blame it on yoper
[03:44] <Rocha> Ng, :)
[03:45] <JanneM> mirak_-: your machine - you decide what to blame :)
[03:45] <Rocha> Is anyone here developing for Ubuntu?
[03:45] <Ng> mirak_-: there is a tool called badblocks that will scan the whole drive and remap any knackered bits. It can take *ages* on a big drive though
[03:45] <Ng> plus it changes the disk, so it might eat your data ;)
[03:45] <Ng> but it seems to be ok
[03:45] <zenwhen_> is AIM down for anyone else?
[03:45] <Rocha> JanneM, usually the problem is between the monitor and the chair. :D
[03:46] <Rocha> zenwhen, i use msn, not aim
[03:46] <zenwhen_> oh
[03:47] <zenwhen_> I was checking to see if AIM was just down for me
[03:47] <zenwhen_> I cant just use msn because most of the people I know only use AIM.
[03:47] <JanneM> http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork
[03:47] <Rocha> In Portugal, almost everyone uses msn, not aim :)
[03:48] <lucas_> Rocha: not only it .pt ;)
[03:48] <AndyFit1> aim is fine for me here.  not that talk to many people on it
[03:48] <uman> use gaim then
[03:48] <uman> I mostly use yahoo
[03:48] <Rocha> Gaim sucks for me, no proxy support
[03:49] <uman> but gaim supports many networks
[03:49] <Rocha> I don't have internet at home, only at faculty, and I'm behind a proxy server.
[03:49] <uman> I'm mostly on yahoo, so I use a chat client for it anyway
[03:49] <Rocha> Only amsn works, gaim doesn't
[03:49] <AndyFit1> im proud to say the majority of the family, friends and developers contacts on my buddy list are jabber or irc.  then msn then icq then aol then yahoo
[03:50] <Rocha> Everyone should use jabber
[03:50] <mirak_-> jabber??
[03:50] <Rocha> Yes, it's a free protocol
[03:50] <chowells> does ubuntu have a run level service editor?
[03:50] <JanneM> it's actually a little sad that I can access samba shares with no problem at work, but there is no painless way of sharing data between two Linux machines
[03:50] <Rocha> msn is proprietary
[03:51] <uman> the problem with jabber is that not many people use it
[03:51] <Rocha> I only use free software
[03:51] <JanneM> won't iChat support Jabber?
[03:51] <uman> JanneM: how about NFS ?
[03:51] <lucas_> JanneM: it will
[03:51] <JanneM> uman: not exactly painless to setup
[03:51] <Rocha> JanneM, isn't that the Apple client?
[03:51] <JanneM> yp
[03:51] <uman> I thought it was pretty easy
[03:51] <uman> you can still use samba on both if you must
[03:52] <JanneM> I've been looking for a way to have cht with my girlfriend
[03:52] <mirak_-> will all of my gnome apps work under xfce4????
[03:52] <JanneM> uman: setting up nfs isn't something I could guide a friend over a phone
[03:52] <JanneM> mirak_-: yes, if you have the libs installed
[03:52] <Rocha> I'm implementing an NFS server and client, please don't speak NFS again :D :D :D
[03:52] <mirak_-> jannem, well I use ubuntu....so I assume I do.....
[03:53] <Rocha> It's not really NFS, but is very similar.
[03:53] <JanneM> uman: I don't think I could do it myself and be absolutely sure I've covered all security implications
[03:53] <Kinnison> mirak_-: they should. They won't be as well integrated (potentially) though
[03:53] <lucas_> Rocha: distributed ?
[03:53] <lucas_> you know about NFS-P ?
[03:53] <jimi-> hum
[03:53] <Rocha> Yup, distributed.
[03:53] <jimi-> need for speed?
[03:53] <jimi-> xD
[03:53] <Ng> haha
[03:54] <Ng> NFS-HP > *
[03:54] <Rocha> jimi-, network file system
[03:54] <jimi-> =)
[03:54] <Rocha> lucas_, unfortunatly in C
[03:54] <JanneM> would love something simple over ssh/scp
[03:54] <mirak_-> kinnison, that is ok, I just want to go out on my own a bit......without going too deep, for learnings sake
[03:54] <lucas_> Rocha: which language are you using ?
[03:54] <JanneM> the nautilus integration to make it painles isn't there yet, though
[03:54] <Kinnison> mirak_-: xfce4 is a pleasant little desktop environment then :-)
[03:54] <Rocha> lucas_, [14:54]  <Rocha> lucas_, unfortunatly in C
[03:54] <zikade> JanneM, try unisono...
[03:54] <Kinnison> mirak_-: It is at least GTK2 based :-)
[03:54] <Ng> JanneM: I really like the nautilus sftp stuff :)
[03:55] <lucas_> Rocha: isn't NFSP C ?
[03:55] <JanneM> zikade: unison is nice, but not really what I mean
[03:55] <Ng> but you can mount things over ssh without using gnome-vfs
[03:55] <lucas_> http://www-id.imag.fr/Laboratoire/Membres/Lombard_Pierre/nfsp/
[03:55] <JanneM> Ng: I have big problems getting it to work
[03:55] <mirak_-> kinnison, what is this GTK2 stuff, and yes it is nice, but I am torn between gnome and xfce4
[03:55] <Ng> JanneM: doh. It talks to a variety of redhat/debian boxes fine for me :(
[03:55] <JanneM> mirak_-: xfce4 also uses gtk2
[03:55] <mirak_-> kinnison, but for now I decided on xfce4, like I said, to go out on my own a bit
[03:56] <Rocha> lucas_, i'm using C but I would prefer another language
[03:56] <Kinnison> mirak_-: gtk2 is the toolkit on top of which both gnome and xfce4 are built
[03:56] <JanneM> Ng: how do you do a remote mount with ssh?
[03:56] <mirak_-> kennison, jannem, ok.thnx
[03:56] <lucas_> it's difficult to do system-related code in something different from C ...
[03:57] <JanneM> Ng: imagine that you need to explain it over a not-very-good phone line to someone who doesn't know what ssh really is
[03:57] <Rocha> Not true. Eveything in windows is not done in C.
[03:57] <kfischer> Hi everybody
[03:57] <jimi-> hi
[03:57] <Rocha> Almost every book on operating systems uses Java.
[03:57] <Ng> JanneM: I forget exactly the details of it, but there are various userspace filesystems for Linux, one of which used ssh to mount remote things (ssh can tunnel data for other applications)
[03:58] <lucas_> Rocha: have you read OS: design & implementation ?
[03:58] <Rocha> C is used because most code is written in it.
[03:58] <JanneM> Ng: ideally, you'd right-click on a folder in Nautilus and mark the "allow other computers to use this folder"
[03:58] <Rocha> lucas_, no, just "Operating System Concepts"
[03:58] <Ng> JanneM: ok, fair point, it's not *that* advanced yet. It will get there though
[03:58] <JanneM> it will
[03:58] <Ng> I think some work in that direction has already been done
[03:58] <Rocha> C should die, it a very old language.
[03:58] <lucas_> the problem with doing system coding in Java is that it will be difficult to test your code on real world apps
[03:59] <Rocha> An operating system is being writeen in Python, as we speak
[03:59] <Keybuk> old doesn't mean bad though
[03:59] <JanneM> just a little sad that we're almost there for samba already, but not for something Unix native
[03:59] <Rocha> s/writeen/written
[03:59] <Keybuk> Rocha: but Python is written in C ... :o)
[03:59] <jimi> rocha : oh, interesting, whats the project name btw?
[03:59] <Rocha> Keybuk, not necessarily, you have implementations in Java.
[03:59] <Rocha> jimi, ununumium i think
[04:00] <Rocha> Keybuk, and I'm sure there are implementations of python written in python
[04:00] <dyn> actually
[04:00] <dyn> it's not pure python
[04:00] <Ng> JanneM: UNIX's heritage doesn't fit that too well though
[04:00] <dyn> it got everything as i've heard to run a python interpreter
[04:00] <mirak_-> metting starts real soon!!!!!!!!
[04:00] <dyn> a pure python stuff would be to run a kernel which interprets python at kernel level :)
[04:00] <jimi> gasp
[04:00] <uman> zinc runs in pythin
[04:00] <uman> python
[04:00] <Rocha> You don't need to interpret python, you can compile it.
[04:00] <jimi> OS names are getting worse
[04:00] <mirak_-> start time is now on my watch
[04:01] <Rocha> 15:01 here
[04:01] <dyn> haha Jimi
[04:01] <uman> 3.
[04:01] <Rocha> Anyone here is a Ubuntu developer?
[04:01] <bob2_> Rocha: quite a few are
[04:01] <pitti> Rocha: me
[04:01] <uman> shouldn't the big meeting start now ?
[04:02] <kfischer> yeah
[04:02] <Rocha> pitti, i'll talk to you after the meeting then
[04:02] <mirak_-> how long is the meeting??
[04:02] <JanneM> until it's done, I guess
[04:02] <mirak_-> lol
[04:02] <pitti> Rocha: would be better
[04:02] <jimi> where is the meeting master :s
[04:03] <mirak_-> sounds good....i get paid by the hour
[04:03] <kfischer> could have guessed that answer :)
[04:03] <JanneM> well, I meant it seriously :)
[04:03] <kfischer> sure you do - but still ...
[04:03] <sabdfl> morning, afternoon, evening all
[04:03] <JanneM> as in "it will take as long as it takes to resolve the stuff"
[04:03] <seraph> hey
[04:03] <mirak_-> well, the devs could be out of it in a half hour, but we could keep it going all day
[04:03] <sabdfl> http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork
[04:04] <kfischer> or more, if i read all the posts properly
[04:04] <uman> half an hour ?
[04:04] <uman> I thought it'd be on now
[04:04] <sabdfl> please take a quick look at that page and let me know if there's anything else we need to cover
[04:04] <uman> or maybe in an hour from now
[04:04] <Rocha> HelloWorld, thanks for comming.
[04:04] <Rocha> *coming
[04:05] <JanneM> looks like a pretty complete summary to me
[04:05] <sabdfl> i expect this will take one to two hours to get a sense of which way we should go
[04:05] <SepheeBear> there's a bouncing cow in Ubuntu?
[04:05] <uman> lol
[04:05] <seraph> As someone from an Islamic country (who is Indian, not Malay or even Islamic) such as Malaysia, I can say that any dress that isn't Islamic in the nature of its modesty will not be acceptable to the government here. In my opinion keeping images of humans off the artwork would be best.
[04:05] <pitti> SepheeBear: a screen saver
[04:05] <seraph> Personally I have no problem with it, but ...
[04:05] <kfischer> sabdfl - agreed
[04:05] <JanneM> SepheeBear: one of the screensavers
[04:05] <thom> SepheeBear: yeah, xscreensaver
[04:05] <seraph> people here were like OMG
[04:05] <Ng> not the cow! noooo
[04:05] <sabdfl> i'll work through that list one item at a time and invite people to comment
[04:05] <seraph> where are the devs?
[04:05] <seraph> who's chairing this meeting btw?
[04:06] <sabdfl> i don't want to get into an argument, so this is less a debate than a calling for opinions
[04:06] <uman> you could have 3 tuxes holding hands
[04:06] <pitti> seraph: they are right here
[04:06] <sabdfl> seraph: i'm chairing
[04:06] <yfir> i thought this was about the 'default' status of the splash screen, not removing things
[04:06] <seraph> sabdfl, shall I direct statements at you?
[04:06] <yfir> cow should stay :)
[04:06] <jimi> +1 uman
[04:06] <sabdfl> seraph: go ahead, when i call for it
[04:06] <crabbox> cows are sacred at India and it might give bad expression
[04:06] <seraph> sabdfl, ok
[04:06] <digitalsurgeon> i have no problem with cow
[04:06] <SepheeBear> that cow is awesome!
[04:06] <digitalsurgeon> ut i think it was a stupid screen saver
[04:06] <sabdfl> ok, this channel is unmoderated, and i'd like to keep it that way
[04:06] <thom> sabdfl: might want to +m whilst you lay out details
[04:06] <thom> ok
[04:07] <sabdfl> thom: ok, just for five minutes
[04:07] <sabdfl> hi all
[04:07] <sabdfl> we will just moderate for a few minutes while i lay the groundwork
[04:07] <sabdfl> we are going to work through each item on http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork
[04:07] <sabdfl> in each case im going to invite people to give their view
[04:08] <sabdfl> but not to argue with one another
[04:08] <sabdfl> we are trying to get a sense of the diversity of views, not resolve the unresolvable
[04:08] <sabdfl> we'll try to keep this channel unmoderated
[04:08] <sabdfl> please read the code of conduct (link in the wiki page)
[04:08] <sabdfl> please respect that
[04:09] <sabdfl> if someone doesn't respect that i'll point it out to them directly
[04:09] <sabdfl> and if that's enough, will ask the ops to +q them
[04:09] <sabdfl> but i don't think it will be needed
[04:09] <sabdfl> ok, let's go, thom could you remove the +m please?
[04:10] <sabdfl> thanks Keybuk
[04:10] <sabdfl> thank you to everyone who's contributed to the mailing list and forum discussions
[04:10] <Mitario> mvo_, back :) took a while :p
[04:11] <sabdfl> can i call for views on the distinction between default and available items in the artwork?
[04:11] <sabdfl> please each person put in your views, once only
[04:11] <jdub> (might want to clarify the question)
[04:11] <seraph> sabdfl, I do not understand the question quite right
[04:11] <uman> default should be very basic trying to be generic, non offensive
[04:11] <whiprush> nor me
[04:11] <pitti> available is okay, default "no" IMHO
[04:11] <sabdfl> what i'm looking for is a sense of how important the default is in terms of universal acceptance, if alternatives are available
[04:11] <Keybuk> [Wiki]  Is the existence of the artwork a problem even if it is not the default?
[04:11] <Telep> I believe it's most sensible to have a simple, abstract theme by default
[04:11] <Gallivant> I'd say the default's pretty critical
[04:12] <opi^work> sabdfl: I think default theme should be as plain as could be
[04:12] <yfir> I'm fine with the images themselves, but I understand why they would cause some "rumbling" among certain groups or in certain places. Hence, should not be default, but still available.
[04:12] <seraph> the default artwork as it stands is a no go
[04:12] <whiprush> I think the default is crucial to the initial acceptance of the distribution as  a whole.
[04:12] <mirak_-> ahh, default to me makes no difference, as long as it is easily and redily changeable
[04:12] <HelloWorld> opi^work, not plain, but simple
[04:12] <daniels> we provide kde and other stuff as well -- hell, you can find fortunes-off if you want.  it's the difference between this potentially, being perceived as poor taste on the behalf of ubuntu, or as someone else.  anecdotally, the barrier to offence for the latter would seem to be far higher; there seems to be a higher degree of conservatism expected from shipping products.
[04:12] <HelloWorld> they're different things
[04:12] <Gallivant> I think the artwork's okay if it's not the default.
[04:12] <seraph> default artwork that was acceptable would be a bonus
[04:12] <morgs> If default is conservative (!=plain) : alternatives are acceptable
[04:12] <opi^work> HelloWorld: ok, simple's better word
[04:12] <JanneM> as seraph mentioned, there are a good deal of people that would not accept the artwork as default. At the same time, many people really do like it. So the question really is how available it should be - on the CD, downloadable package?
[04:12] <theantix> I think it's highly important that the default is widely acceptable
[04:12] <daniels> i don't think anyone would have a problem with Ubuntu if it was merely *available*.
[04:12] <kfischer> I think as default it would be nicer, it gives a happier impression. Which might be especially useful for the novice Linux-User
[04:13] <limi|london> how about an option on install? "clean" or "photos"?
[04:13] <opi^work> I think you can set something with Ubuntu logo
[04:13] <yfir> it's also important that ubuntu's default is distinct
[04:13] <sabdfl> ok, let's ask the question in a different way
[04:13] <pitti> Does anybody actually think that having the images available would _not_ be acceptable?
[04:13] <opi^work> and let me to download this fine GDM login screen with apt-get install gdm-artwork
[04:13] <sect2k> since you can not please all the people (for various reasons), having a simple, "neutral" default is the wy to go.
[04:13] <crabbox> unfortunately business world requires mild artwork...
[04:13] <thom> limi|london: we're trying to reduce number of questions, so that's a no go :-)
[04:13] <JanneM> seraph: from your horizon, is the login screen a problem? I know that would probably be acceptable here, even if the other images aren't
[04:13] <cbaoth_> I don't see any problems with the artwork being available, but it's not worksafe as a default... unless the bloke takes a shirt on. :p
[04:13] <limi|london> ok ;)
[04:13] <sabdfl> the login screen has no nudity, but it's certainly more aimed at fun than work
[04:13] <yfir> i don't buy the "the default art should be as plain as possible" argument
[04:13] <hernan43> crabbox: yeah i almost got burned on a reboot
[04:13] <seraph> JanneM, its not at all acceptable
[04:13] <JanneM> seraph: ok
[04:13] <seraph> JanneM, the splash is worse
[04:14] <Henrik> A large number of basic users will not know how to change the default, or know that it can be changed, or want to spend the 2 minutes required to find out.
[04:14] <seraph> the calendar is obscene here
[04:14] <Gallivant> The splash, IMHO, is the worst part
[04:14] <uman> I liked it, but I can see people having issues with it
[04:14] <seraph> ( not my opinion, just the populace here )
[04:14] <dewey> I have no problem with the current login I like it myself.
[04:14] <Rocha> Henrik, you're right
[04:14] <sabdfl> if our target audience is "ordinary people", should we still ship a default login screen that is oriented to the corporate, when corporates are likely to set it to suit them anyway?
[04:14] <seraph> personally, I am cool. but natives are .... not
[04:14] <HelloWorld> i actually like everything all around, but some people might have issues with the "naked people"
[04:14] <bdr> non-controtreversial!=plain
[04:14] <yfir> why not just change it to a non-default status. then everyone is happy, no?
[04:14] <dyn> default artwork will paint the first impression of the distro. it will get published in reviews, articles, etc. it should definetely fit the target user base (fun or work usage scenarios, etc)
[04:14] <thom> sabdfl: i think the real issues are that corporates will not set it, but simply not use it
[04:14] <sabdfl> seraph: please don't debate other's views, just state your own
[04:14] <pitti> sabdfl: yes, because if they see it the first time, they might be embarassed
[04:14] <tseng> a) to me it seems out of place, looks more like an ad in a womens magazine than a linux distro, b) its controversial in non-western areas
[04:14] <JanneM> well, as seraph points out, "ordinary people" in plenty of places would have problems with that default as well
[04:14] <littlepaul> change the "nude" images ;-)
[04:14] <thom> (where the latter "it" is the distro)
[04:14] <daniels> sabdfl: i personally think we should go for least-possible-offence caused.
[04:15] <darkersatanic> I think there is definitely sufficient cause to change the current artwork.
[04:15] <yfir> i mean, is anyone aguing that the current image MUST be the default? i don't think so
[04:15] <jdub> it's inappropriate for a large audience of 'ordinary people' too, plus it goes against our 'greatest common factor' goal of the desktop.
[04:15] <darkersatanic> I don't know if there would be a problem with shipping the current artwork as an option.
[04:15] <kfischer> Yes. Definitely. It shows that it might be fun to use Ubuntu...
[04:15] <crabbox> easiest way is to make universal theme which does not offend anyone and then do other (the nice looking ones) as themes which you can select
[04:15] <opi^work> sabdfl: I love this GDM screen, and don't find it ofensive, funny this is, after reading all this talks on ML I've stumped on flash-ad on big portal with naked females. Noone complained. Females in bra are even better.
[04:15] <seraph> sabdfl, personally, I dodge my mother just logging in
[04:15] <uman> it's fine as an option, but should not be default
[04:15] <Gallivant> It may be installed, but our hypothetical corporation is probably going to see selecting it as no different than downloading and selecting it.
[04:15] <lucas_> I personally liked the theme used during beta test (the one with the globe), and was very disapointed to see it replaced.
[04:15] <seraph> at college, on the laptop, I had to dodge lecturers
[04:15] <yfir> i liked it too
[04:16] <dyn> the current artwork goes into dangerous directions. many people would refuse even to have a closer look because of the first impression of the distro suggest that it's not for them
[04:16] <One> yayy
[04:16] <bdr> i use the globe one still - downloaded it off the wiki
[04:16] <yfir> dangerous directions? haha
[04:16] <seraph> so it bothered me socially
[04:16] <SepheeBear> hand out t-shirts, snap another picture, make that default..... and there STILL will be people who'll want to gripe about it
[04:16] <krischan> dyn: to engage the former discussion again: where in the file system would you recommomend to place a already-compiled application, and why?
[04:16] <yfir> it's hardly dangerous. it's tacky  because it looks like a Beneton comercial
[04:16] <crabbox> try to use human theme at middle east and you get sacked for good
[04:16] <dyn> krischan: i thought we're in an artwork meeting :) i guess we'd rather stick to the topic and get back to that when we end
[04:16] <brosen> I showed the art to my mother :-) But I don't think it should be default
[04:16] <Gallivant> The problem with citing Benneton is that the wiki explicitely cites that as an inspiration
[04:16] <seraph> yfir, its obscene here. I can't use it. I was embarrassed the first time it appeared.
[04:17] <yfir> obscene?
[04:17] <uman> you could leave is as an optional "theme" but not as default
[04:17] <theantix> having the current artwork by default also makes Ubuntu known as "that distro with naked people" for better or for worse
[04:17] <JanneM> many people do like it, though - and the calendar is a great idea - so it shouldn't be dumped altogether either
[04:17] <jsc> i liked it , but i can see how it would be a problem in some situations... make it an option to install ... but not the default
[04:17] <opi^work> Im kinda surprised that people that face adv-p0rnography, TV sex and nudity are ofended by people that are not naked :-)
[04:17] <lhb> my wife thinks its awesome
[04:17] <seraph> opi^work, here non of that is legal :)
[04:17] <seraph> none
[04:17] <sabdfl> opi^work: please don't get into a debate about other's values, just speak for yourself
[04:17] <opi^work> sabdfl: ok
[04:17] <Rocha> How can anyone think of nudity when using ubuntu??!!?!?
[04:17] <dyn> keeping the current artwork will pretty soon tag ubuntu as the 'gay distro' indeed. we've already discussed this briefly this morning, many ppl i know reacted like that
[04:18] <opi^work> sabdfl: maybe a switch while installation would be helful?
[04:18] <Rocha> dyn, are you crazy?
[04:18] <pitti> Personally I find the images distracting, and I would be embarassed to have them in the Uni or in a company
[04:18] <cbaoth_> First impressions matter I'm afriad.
[04:18] <dyn> indeed
[04:18] <seraph> sabdfl, I'd say that the artwork was highly professional, but needs to be toned down a lot
[04:18] <opi^work> sabdfl: ,,what evn. are you targetting?'' corporate/home
[04:18] <seraph> pitti, same sentiments
[04:18] <seraph> a corporate theme is confidence inspiring to home users
[04:18] <Telep> It's not only non-western areas where it's controversial - my girlfriend said straight away that the splash and wallpaper were clearly more erotic than anything else.
[04:18] <sabdfl> we are not pushing for the corporate market at this stage, it's a nice-to-have
[04:19] <yfir> so if issue is: should these images be default - does anyone insist that they are the default? i mean, just make them available but not default and everyone seems to be happy
[04:19] <dyn> so it's a clean home/fun distro in its current market positioning?
[04:19] <pitti> My gf was not happy with them either
[04:19] <JanneM> and don't lose the calendar idea
[04:19] <flubie> in eastern culture, it is not acceptable, not to mention if you use it in universities or schools
[04:19] <maswan> sabdfl: the student-taking-laptop-to-school market though?
[04:19] <opi^work> pitti: OTOH, mine was :-)
[04:19] <lucas_> I don't have a gf, but changing the theme might help =)
[04:19] <littlepaul> what about some Zulu warriors? http://www.africamasterweb.com/AfricaMbebe/ZuluWarriorsSit.jpg ;-)
[04:19] <mirak_-> my gf thinks its fine......doens t se a problem, nor a reason to debate
[04:19] <crabbox> calender is good thing
[04:19] <sect2k> it's quite simple, if even one potential user is offended by this artwork, it should be a no go
[04:19] <dyn> drop it then
[04:20] <maswan> sect2k: I disagree
[04:20] <lkx> no drop, but optional ...
[04:20] <pitti> Displaying humans and animals of any kind is simply not acceptable in Islamic religion
[04:20] <opi^work> sect2k: no way
[04:20] <mirak_-> sect2k, we would then be left with shell only
[04:20] <kfischer_> How about a simple question during install with a thumbnail showing what is going to be installed and the option to replace it by something different?
[04:20] <yfir> you'll never please everyone. eventually, someone is going to be offended and you'll have to draw the line
[04:20] <opi^work> sect2k: If I dislike Gnome, should Ubuntu drop it?
[04:20] <Telep> and that was my first impression too - a naked lad touching two naked girls certainly didn't scream out "people caring for each other in a totally non-sexual fashion" :D
[04:20] <whiprush> if the target is the home user you shouldn't write off a business segment either.
[04:20] <limi|london> bash is pretty offensive in itself ;)
[04:20] <JanneM> sect2k: I doubt you could find even one solid color that doesn't have a negative connotation somewhere
[04:20] <jimi> microsoft is targetting not corporate, and spending M$ about such topic, they never put people images on themes (not to copy them, but to notice)
[04:20] <jdub> corporate market may only be "nice to have" at the moment, but there's a lot of active interest, and it would be unwise to endanger the opportunity
[04:20] <pitti> kfischer_: I like the thumbnail idea, especially in our text-based installer :-)
[04:20] <Rocha> What I think is, I there is someone against the "people" gdm image, you should take it out.
[04:20] <whiprush> jdub: exactly what I wanted to say
[04:21] <BenNovack> There's a difference between "Not actively gunning for corporations" and "actively pissing them off"
[04:21] <cbaoth_> ++
[04:21] <Rocha> Everyone should agree, there should be no discussion at all!
[04:21] <Telep> exactly
[04:21] <The_Bell> hello
[04:21] <chris_> No one ever complained about the old theme.  This new one is obviously causing problems.  I don't see why there even needs to be a meeting about it... :)
[04:21] <kfischer_> pitti, but that is your problem, not mine :)
[04:21] <Rocha> If a significant ammount of people doesn't like, remove it.
[04:21] <maswan> Rocha: there would be someone against that particular shade of gray for a single-colour slab gdm screen
[04:21] <JanneM> to put it this way then: do people see a problem with having the theme available on disk but not the default?
[04:22] <opi^work> but leave it, so I could install it
[04:22] <pitti> argh, netsplit
[04:22] <opi^work> some split
[04:22] <opi^work> :)
[04:22] <yfir> janne: me personally, available but not default
[04:22] <opi^work> back on topic
[04:22] <dyn> i dont think it'd mean a problem
[04:22] <limi|london> netsplit!
[04:22] <brosen> Janne - that's fine
[04:22] <cbaoth_> No.
[04:22] <crabbox> leave it on the disk but not as default
[04:22] <sect2k> bare in mind that what offends people and what people dislike is not one and the same
[04:22] <mirak_-> jannem, I don't see why that would be a problem
[04:22] <theantix> sabdfl: if you set a precent now with the artwork, in the future corporations and conservative orgs might be unwilling to commit even if the defaults change
[04:22] <Rocha> maswan, it should be a reasonable ammount of people.
[04:22] <Telep> having it on the website would be enough imho
[04:22] <SepheeBear> the more it pisses people off the more i like it
[04:22] <BenNovack> JanneM: Seems fine to me.
[04:22] <jimi> +1 yfir, in the theme manager
[04:22] <maswan> yeah, available but not default would be a good solution
[04:22] <krischan> dyn: Artwork meeting? Sorry, that passed me by!
[04:22] <Rocha> This kind of discussion won't help.
[04:22] <sect2k> the fact that i dislike brown color, does not mean i am offended by it
[04:22] <dyn> krischan: see topic :)
[04:22] <krischan> sabdfl: I think opi^work does speak for him-/herself.
[04:23] <seb128_> I agree with available but not the default
[04:23] <Rocha> I like the image a lot, if it's causing complaints, remove it.
[04:23] <lucas_> http://blop.info/screenshot.jpg <= screenshot of the GDM theme that was used during beta test - the one I preferred.
[04:23] <daniels> (the last anyone on this side of the split saw was 07:17 <@sabdfl> opi^work: please don't get into a debate about other's values, just speak for yourself)
[04:23] <thaytan> any LVM smarts aboot?
[04:23] <polok> g'night everyone
[04:23] <maswan> you'd still get in trouble in some ME conutries, but, well, not much you can do about that really..
[04:23] <sabdfl> do we have everyone back from the split?
[04:23] <flubie> default, no. alternative, ok.
[04:23] <darkersatanic> I think available but not default is a good option.
[04:23] <mirak_-> wow
[04:23] <dyn> i like the image too (love it actually), it's something new, something else, but still, it'd make too many people turn away from the distro
[04:23] <Telep> quite so
[04:24] <yfir> my view as well: imagery is fine, but not as default.
[04:24] <Henrik> I also agree with 'available but not the default'
[04:24] <uman> it just depends on how global you want to make it, if it has to be "all the planet" you'll have to do it very neutral
[04:24] <sabdfl> lets skip to the next section of the wiki page
[04:24] <seraph> I disagree
[04:24] <The_Bell> I agree with dyn
[04:24] <sabdfl> http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork
[04:24] <BenNovack> I think "available but not default" is the consensus
[04:24] <opi^work> 'available but not the default' for me, too
[04:24] <seraph> it should not be associated with ubuntu
[04:24] <uman> if you want to have some artistic freedom in it, you'll have to leave some folks out
[04:24] <sabdfl> can we have any default images that depict people at all?
[04:24] <JanneM> and keep the calendar? :)
[04:24] <sect2k> i also agree it's fine as a choice but not as default
[04:24] <drod> i like the images as well, personally, but I definitely recognize how much the artwork will limit Ubuntu's reach. Include it, but don't make it the default, that's all we're asking.....
[04:24] <The_Bell> lucas_ I get a 404 error
[04:24] <seraph> 'unavailable'
[04:24] <darkersatanic> Given seraph's comments, though, I'm not sure about the legality of even shipping it at all to (e.g) strongly Islamic countries.
[04:24] <Rocha> 'available but not the default' for me, too
[04:24] <jdub> default with people: i lean towards no
[04:24] <seraph> darkersatanic, what is the label going to be"
[04:25] <daniels> sabdfl: the entire split is back, yes
[04:25] <sabdfl> for this part of the session, please don't think of "people" as they are represented in the current artwork
[04:25] <seraph> "Soft porn Ubuntu Artwork" ?
[04:25] <uman> available but not default
[04:25] <whiprush> I don't think images of people fit well at all with a default theme, regardless of how they're dressed or whatever, it's just tacky.
[04:25] <rjek> Afternoon.
[04:25] <lucas_> old default theme : http://blop.info/screenshot.png (.png, not .jpg)
[04:25] <JanneM> darkersatanic: but as seraph points out - animals (including cartoon penguins, I would assume) are a no-no
[04:25] <jimi> my view is the same : avaiable in gnome theme manager but no people in default
[04:25] <Rocha> Can we make a vote? With just "yes/no" answers ?
[04:25] <theantix> sabdfl: I would be okay with the current gdm image by default if they were all clothed
[04:25] <pitti> sabdfl: not in Islamic religion
[04:25] <BenNovack> I'm personally tempted to say that depicting people is fine - we can cover for ME countries by simply not making them a default
[04:25] <jg__> daniels: ping
[04:25] <sabdfl> Rocha: no
[04:25] <daniels> sabdfl: i don't think we can go with people for defaults -- witness the controversy about what they'd have to be wearing, whether depiction of certain genders/ethnicities/builds/whatever is okay, et al
[04:25] <opi^work> sabdfl: I think we could, just give'em Tshirts, so people would not get ,,p0rn'' idea
[04:25] <seraph> JanneM, people would be alright, but to be safe ...
[04:25] <seraph> remember, in some countries a bourka is considered decent
[04:25] <pitti> Personally I would prefer abstract artwork, regardless of the clothing of people
[04:26] <seb128_> me too
[04:26] <z4k4ri4> me too
[04:26] <yfir> seraph, there is no way you are going to please everyone in that sense
[04:26] <darkersatanic> JanneM: There are plenty of non-animal things one could use in artwork.
[04:26] <seraph> I suggest going with conservative dress
[04:26] <yfir> not even worth trying
[04:26] <seraph> yfir, then get conservative dressing on the people
[04:26] <opi^work> but this photo makes nice comp. to Ubuntu logo
[04:26] <Ng> it would seem a good idea to have humans in ubuntu :)
[04:26] <uman> I'd prefer to keep it human, make it optional though
[04:26] <maswan> seraph: there is no global consensus on conservative dress
[04:26] <crabbox> if we dump the people pictures from default installation then gdm artwork should be something else too
[04:26] <rjek> Surely you can't have a universally inoffensive default?
[04:26] <JanneM> darkersatanic: my point is, I doubt we even have an icon theme available that doesn depict animals, for instance
[04:26] <seraph> I *really* liked the professionalness of the artwork though
[04:26] <seraph> that has to be commended
[04:26] <SepheeBear> methinks this is *ONLY* an issue because Ubuntu's the best distro out there
[04:26] <dyn> nod
[04:26] <z4k4ri4> But your conservative dressing might different with other culture conservative dressing
[04:26] <darkersatanic> JanneM: Ah, I see your point. :)
[04:26] <lucas_> what about a picture with people dressed in a more traditionnal way ? The current picture means : let's unite people from all over the world, but dress them as Westerners.
[04:26] <rjek> Personally, I find the brown colour scheme offensive. :)
[04:26] <yfir> yes, photograpy was excellent
[04:26] <Keybuk> how does "conservative dress" play with (e.g.) the Muslim market, for whom conversative dress for a woman is entirely covered? *shrug*
[04:26] <flubie> how conservative is conservative enough?
[04:27] <The_Bell> It'll always be a problem if people appears in the artwork
[04:27] <regex_racoon> rjek: What about volvoman's ubuntu logos
[04:27] <sect2k> rjek: why not?
[04:27] <uman> it was well done indeed, great artwork, just not appropriate as deault
[04:27] <JanneM> silhouettes?
[04:27] <Keybuk> regex_racoon: URL?
[04:27] <Henrik> With more clothes and a wider distribution of age and good-lookingness, it should be ok to have some humans as default, but perhaps not everywhere and perhaps not such large and bright images
[04:27] <rjek> regex_racoon: I've only just joined.
[04:27] <kfischer_> The problem with abstract themes is that thea are - wonder - abstract. It clearly states that the computer is a piece of mysterious technology and therefore it cnnot be fun using it. Which is, in my opinion, the wrong way to go...
[04:27] <seraph> uman, agreed
[04:27] <maswan> seraph: I mean, the current gdm splash is ok as conservative enough clothing around here. Apparently it is not in parts of the world.
[04:27] <z4k4ri4> it is safer to use some abstract or symbolic picture
[04:27] <seraph> maswan, slightly more clothing would be best
[04:27] <BenNovack> The reason I'm not forwarding the abstract argument is that (If I read things right) the developers want to keep things *human*. Says so in the wiki. But again, just don't make it the default!
[04:27] <seraph> maswan, less skin, perhaps tshirts or something
[04:27] <maswan> But I would like to see humans.
[04:27] <dyn> if we could have a t-shirt on the guy at least, it'd be fine ;)
[04:28] <maswan> seraph: might be fine in your specific location.
[04:28] <rjek> I think less people would be offended if the models were attractive. :)
[04:28] <regex_racoon> rjek: http://www.volvoguy.net/ubuntu/
[04:28] <pitti> Human is not necessarily "depict real people"
[04:28] <uman> I feel very happy looking at nice people looking up at me, but I don't want to force my pervese nature onto others
[04:28] <Telep> Offensive or not, having pictures of people is imho too distracting, and carries potentially too many unintentional messages to use them as default artwork
[04:28] <maswan> seraph: thing is, it differs.
[04:28] <regex_racoon> rjek: I guess it's volvoguy
[04:28] <Telep> especially _photographs_ are problematic imho
[04:28] <seraph> maswan, agreed. but to make it available is an option with ore clothes
[04:28] <whiprush> next question please. ;) we could be stuck here all day.
[04:28] <yfir> should we move on perhaps? we are repeating ourselves on this issue now
[04:28] <BenNovack> I'm very much of the opinion that we just make the default abstract, and then don't worry about whta's *available*.
[04:28] <nosilver4u> i'm in the US, and normally those images are nothing to blink at, but I work at a Bible College, and I installed unbuntu the day the artwork is changed
[04:28] <pitti> Telep: +1
[04:28] <JanneM> Telep: I think that the sticking point
[04:28] <SepheeBear> people dig the whole "humanity" thing just as long as no real humans are involved
[04:28] <rjek> regex_racoon: Some of them are better - if a little overly plain.
[04:28] <Telep> I'm of the opinion that images of holding hands and the sort would convey the idea of Ubuntu much better than full images of people, which leave too much room for misinterpretation, esp. if they're half naked.
[04:28] <nosilver4u> i almost crapped my pants, cause my boss was sitting 5 feet away
[04:28] <bdr> i agree - faces/bodies on a computer are distracting generally
[04:28] <maswan> seraph: the _current_ one should be availbable for those that want them
[04:29] <nosilver4u> fortunately, he's understanding, and just laughed at my frustration
[04:29] <regex_racoon> rjek: But universally unoffensive?
[04:29] <kfischer_> But what about the novice user? Will he or she ever learn (and how so?) that there are far more attractive, joyful themes out there thhan just some abstract colrs/shapes?
[04:29] <JanneM> how about cartoon? silhouettes of people? animals?
[04:29] <opi^work> nosilver4u: my boss, otoh, said the artwork is fine :>
[04:29] <jimi> to keep the "human" thing, people can be drwn
[04:29] <jimi> drawn
[04:29] <Keybuk> kfischer_: I think so, even the most novice user tends to find how to change that
[04:29] <jimi> not pictured
[04:29] <ogra_> opi^work: mine too :)
[04:30] <uman> I find this whole debate ridiculous, but I respect the opinions of others, so keep it simple and non offending
[04:30] <nosilver4u> opiwork: did you just ignore the part about me working at a Bible School
[04:30] <yfir> i don't know, hentai is pretty offensive in some quarters too :)
[04:30] <opi^work> JanneM: I bet some pople would say some animals are a ,,no-go'' to
[04:30] <crabbox> drawing actually sounds good
[04:30] <seraph> maswan, the gdm bg is ok to ship imo, but the splash and calendars are a definite no no
[04:30] <rjek> regex_racoon: I'm not sure it's possible to be universally inoffensive.  Certainly it's possible to try and get close.  Some cultures have strong issues with certain colours, for example.
[04:30] <jimi> heh yfir =)
[04:30] <mirak_-> most windows/ex-windows users like shiny things, so im sure that one of the first things they go to do is make their desktop look pretty
[04:30] <cbaoth_> The splash screen is kind of hard to change.
[04:30] <nosilver4u> working at a Bible School=naked people on your desktop is bad
[04:30] <regex_racoon> rjek: Good call
[04:30] <bdr> they could just add gtweakui or some similar tool to the computer desktop preferences menu to make it more obvious there are alternatives
[04:30] <BenNovack> I work tech support at my university, and I can guarantee you that your average user will stop at nothing to put their prom pic/dog/kids on the desktop
[04:30] <sabdfl> jimi: i think even drawn representations of the human form are problematic in some cultures
[04:30] <sect2k> rjek: name a few?
[04:30] <Rocha> mirak_-, that's a critical thing. Make the desktop look pretty.
[04:31] <rjek> regex_racoon: Best bet is to go with something that's extremely tricky to avoid in real life, like blue or green. :)
[04:31] <opi^work> nosilver4u: god made you naked, so? ;) (sorry, this is not a topic here, but I couldn't resist)
[04:31] <Rocha> Almost everyone I know uses windows because it's pretty.
[04:31] <BenNovack> This is starting to get tangential, but what about adding a "How to get things done" popup at first login a la most of the major distributions?
[04:31] <uman> I must say that this "wallpaper" has been one of the most original ones I've seen for a long time
[04:31] <bdr> Windows? Pretty?
[04:31] <uman> it's sad that it offends so many
[04:31] <opi^work> oxymoron
[04:31] <nosilver4u> opiwork: i'm not biting
[04:31] <BenNovack> Rocha: I find that really amusing because prettiness is one of the reasons I'm such a linux fan!
[04:31] <jimi> sabdfl, yes, i personnaly think default shoud contain no people =)
[04:31] <opi^work> nosilver4u: ok :)
[04:31] <shady> what lines do I need to comment on XF86 (for nvidia)
[04:31] <yfir> next question already...
[04:32] <BenNovack> If I can ask, since I missed the start, who here is canonical?
[04:32] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl, It's better to use the old one
[04:32] <sabdfl> i'd like to try to distinguish between "sensible default" and "acceptable to everybody"
[04:32] <daniels> sabdfl: (yeah, Islam prevents depiction of Allah's creatures, for two primary reasons, but yeah, they can be offensive in some cultures)
[04:32] <JanneM> clothed people in general?
[04:32] <sabdfl> for example
[04:32] <lucas_> z4k4ri4: can you define "the old one" ?
[04:32] <empop> I very much like the direction of the images.  I think that even if they are removed as default, the monthly calendar should continue in that direction
[04:32] <JanneM> sabdfl: "acceptable to eveybody" == "turned off monitor"
[04:32] <synd|work> Not true
[04:32] <z4k4ri4> lucas_: the one with just the logo
[04:32] <opi^work> you can't stasify everyone
[04:32] <sabdfl> if the login screen is not good in a corporate setting, and totally offensive in strict muslim countries
[04:32] <pitti> empop: it will anyway
[04:32] <uman> sensible = no nudity (sigh) generic symbols, stupid everyone the same
[04:32] <amin2> help. I lost my gnome panel. I did "sudo aptitue install ~tubuntu desktop". I works but I don't like it, cuz I lost my customize setting
[04:32] <sabdfl> then i'm curious if we could even put it on the cd
[04:32] <whiprush> sensible default should be sensibly boring
[04:33] <sabdfl> or in the archive
[04:33] <BenNovack> You can't satisfy everyone, but you can at least refrain from *insulting* everyone
[04:33] <BenNovack> Agree with whiprush
[04:33] <sabdfl> so let's postulate that the default images were all non-human
[04:33] <opi^work> ok
[04:33] <rjek> I installed Ubuntu on a linux newbie friend's machine last night.  He did mention that some people might take offense about the lack of representation of people other than men, women, white and black.  (Lack of asians, for example.)
[04:33] <Telep> sabdfl: putting it on the website somewhere would probably be the safest bet, imho
[04:33] <JanneM> I think the main sticking point realy was that it would be default, ie. that people wouldn't have a concious choice to use the images
[04:33] <crabbox> sabdfl: I agree on that
[04:33] <BenNovack> JanneM: Agreed.
[04:33] <sabdfl> and let me ask people to give their view on whether images with the human form could even be on the cd, or if that would risk censorship in mulsim (or other) countries
[04:33] <opi^work> sabdfl: yet, human artwork should stay in Ubuntu
[04:33] <Kamion> I feel that if people have to actively go and turn an image on, then the onus shifts to them to ensure that it's not offensive to those around them. In the case of the default, the onus is on us.
[04:34] <maswan> Telep: somewhere on the website = in the archive
[04:34] <jdub> sabdfl: i'm a little concerned about the calendar images being installed by default. they're a cool feature for people to find out about and play with, but installed (even if not on) by default is a bit hairy in some environments. all the kids will switch to the nudie photos, etc... ;)
[04:34] <JanneM> I don't see a problem with including it on the CD
[04:34] <yfir> sabdfl: i think trying to keep absolutely anything potentially offensive to anyone from the archive is a fruitless battle. just worry about sensible, non-offensive defaults
[04:34] <seb128_> I don't get the problem with having it in the archive, people will only have them on screen if they decide to select them ...
[04:34] <limi|london> you could also change the approach a bit, and have images (like the calendar idea) from different parts of the world - African savannah, Brazilian rainforest, Norwegian fjords, Icelandic glaciers etc - be the "world distro" more than the "people distro" - that would be less confrontational and still have the global aspect of Ubuntu
[04:34] <sabdfl> Kamion: will the censors in saudi arabia agree with you?
[04:34] <Telep> maswan: ok
[04:34] <uman> I guess you stick on some toilet type human figures
[04:34] <Kamion> sabdfl: no idea :-)
[04:34] <Keybuk> sabdfl: I actually asked my next-door neighbours about that ... they didn't think they'd have a problem with things just being installed, as long as they weren't forced to look at them
[04:34] <theantix> sabdfl: I don't think the images are so offensive that they can't be included, just not by default -- if someone actively turn them on it is up to them to make sure they arne't offending anyone
[04:34] <daniels> sabdfl: i think having them is fine, just as it's fine for us to also ship fortunes-off
[04:34] <maswan> jdub: or for that matter for travelling into some ME conutries, you don't want to have that on your laptop in case you are caught in custums.
[04:34] <dyn> hah, one again. my noob friend just isntalled ubuntu for the first time 10 minutes ago. i asked them about the login screen's first impression and the answer was "a bit gay"
[04:34] <jimi> are penguins offensive in some part of the world?
[04:34] <dyn> so that's a definite problem
[04:35] <yfir> gay is a problem?
[04:35] <daniels> sabdfl: if people need to actively make a choice to see it, then they won't take offence
[04:35] <drod> to me, this seems to be a rehash of everything said in the mailing list over the last several days....with the drawback of not being able to participate much since I'm at work right now.
[04:35] <sabdfl> jimi: you should smell penguin poop
[04:35] <dyn> yfir: in the 'homosexual' meaning of gay
[04:35] <jimi> :s
[04:35] <crabbox> jimi: yes, here in Filand ;-)
[04:35] <uman> I think you could boil it down to this : What would you be comfortable with YOUR children looking at
[04:35] <sect2k> daniels: agreed
[04:35] <yfir> yeah, i know. what's the problem though?
[04:35] <opi^work> dyn: what's gay in famales in male? :O
[04:35] <opi^work> s/in/and
[04:35] <yfir> let's not get offensive (hahaha)
[04:35] <Napo> Hi all
[04:35] <JanneM> uman: not a good test as the answer will change by culture and by individual
[04:35] <kfischer_> uman, I found nothing offensive in ubuntu so far..
[04:36] <amin2> help..
[04:36] <dyn> opi^work: i _cannot_ explain, but i got the same feeling, and he's the 4th ppl saying that from my friendship (all straight with gf :-)
[04:36] <Napo> Where i can find a repository for Mplayer and j2sdk for ubuntu?
[04:36] <uman> neither do I, but normally we applu stricter standards to what children can "handle"
[04:36] <dyn> Napo: website, docs, universal repository
[04:36] <dyn> Napo: but we're in a meeting here right now
[04:36] <ogra_> Napo: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/RestrictedFormats
[04:36] <yfir> napo, search wiki for 'restricted formats'
[04:36] <sabdfl> so is there anyone here who feels strongly that the RC images should not be on the CD at all?
[04:36] <uman> and that might just coincide with a more generic/general acceptance
[04:37] <sabdfl> what about for schools, universities?
[04:37] <uman> they should be one the CDs
[04:37] <JanneM> don't see a problem
[04:37] <BenNovack> Schools and universities will disable wallpaper switching anyway
[04:37] <empop> I feel strongly they sould remain ON the cd
[04:37] <Henrik> Just had a look at the Arabic news service Al-Jazeera out of curiocity, and it's filled with images of people (clothed obviously). If they are not worried about that, then I think we are going too far by worrying about images of people in general. I think those rules are only enforced by the most extreme regimes like the Taliban.
[04:37] <whiprush> I'm a .edu admin, I'd strip out the images anyway.
[04:37] <crabbox> keep those on the cd
[04:37] <kfischer_> on the CD, please
[04:37] <seb128> no problem to have them on the CD
[04:37] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: but they should be properly labeled
[04:37] <uman> they're like pieces of art, you wouldn't want to destroy david
[04:37] <yfir> i run an academic network. would be fine
[04:37] <drod> on th cd
[04:37] <jimi> i think the problem is about default install, choice is good
[04:37] <bdr> at my uni somebody got in trouble for putting an empty folder called "Porn" on a public machine
[04:37] <jdub> sabdfl: they could be in ShipSeed instead of DesktopSeed (so they're not installed on disk unless you actively choose to)
[04:38] <ogra_> Henrik: is here any muslim ? why don't we hear it from them ?
[04:38] <kfischer_> z4k4ri4, what does "properly labeled" mean?
[04:38] <BenNovack> If they're not in DesktopSeed, most users will never see them
[04:38] <Kinnison> sabdfl: On the CD, not installed by default, not copied by archive-copier by default, explicitly marked as something like 'ubuntu-artwork-human' sounds like a good plan to me.
[04:38] <xortw> idd
[04:38] <uman> Kinnison: agree
[04:38] <sabdfl> Kinnison: then why put them on the cd at all?
[04:38] <Rocha> I'll ask the opinion of some of my collegues tomorrow and I'll tell you what did they think.
[04:38] <amin2> help.. I lost my gnome panel
[04:38] <Telep> Kinnison: agree
[04:38] <BenNovack> I think as long as it's not the right-after-install-default, it doesn't matter too much.
[04:38] <empop> BenNovack: agreed
[04:38] <z4k4ri4> kfischer_: Give it a name like human photo or something
[04:38] <Rocha> amin2, don't talk about that now.
[04:38] <Kinnison> sabdfl: Because synaptic can then ask for the CD if the user opts to install it
[04:38] <Rocha> amin2, we're in a meeting
[04:38] <jimi> sabdfl, why *not* on the CD ? :)
[04:38] <Telep> or "ubuntu-half-naked-people" ;)
[04:39] <JanneM> nah
[04:39] <uman> where does human nature go if you can't depict bits of anatomy
[04:39] <crabbox> natural people
[04:39] <JanneM> ubuntu-theme-human
[04:39] <BenNovack> JanneM: What are you 'nah'-ing?
[04:39] <SepheeBear> on the CD with install option to include pictures of real people
[04:39] <uman> you're not going to show people just in veils
[04:39] <sabdfl> i didn't really get a clear view there, except that everyone seems to think they can stay on the cd
[04:39] <lkx> hope to see a decision named 'default smart' soon. gbye :)
[04:39] <JanneM> BenNovack: "ubuntu-half-naked-people"
[04:39] <JanneM> yes
[04:39] <uman> if you go to a beach you'll see people wearing less
[04:39] <lucas_> then, could you ship the theme used during beta test too (the globe one) ? ;-)
[04:40] <whiprush> Keep them on the CD
[04:40] <JanneM> uman: but you choose to go to the beach.
[04:40] <yfir> to some sects of menonite, computers themselves are offensive. give up trying to please all and work on developing a sensible default
[04:40] <Kinnison> sabdfl: It seems a pity to force people to download it; but I guess having it in the archive but not on the CD might be safer for getting the CDs imported into strict countries.
[04:40] <johnlevin> uman: depends on the beach
[04:40] <JanneM> people in business attire good?
[04:40] <dyn> sabdfl: we're mostly from europe or the usa i believe. i have zero idea how eg. asian ppl would react on that topic - they should be asked
[04:40] <jdub> sabdfl: subtle midpoint that was missed on the wiki: 'on by default' vs. 'installed by default' vs. 'on the cd'
[04:40] <lucas_> uman: ever been to the beach near the caspian see, in iran ? :)
[04:40] <|trey|> Ugh, more discussion about the graphics?
[04:40] <sabdfl> Kinnison: calendar requires download anyhow for ongoing update each month
[04:40] <z4k4ri4> dyn: I'm an indonesian
[04:40] <Telep> uman: you'd still be distracted if people were dressed to work in swimsuits and bikinis
[04:40] <BenNovack> I know Ubuntu is really big on not having the usual distro-style overload on 'choice' - only gnome, only openoffice, etc - but I dont' think it's a problem to have lots of options for wallpaper after default.
[04:40] <uman> I doubt that there is a culture that will not, in any form, show the upper torso of a man
[04:41] <bob2_> |trey|: it's a meeting.
[04:41] <dyn> z4k4ri4: wow, so make your voice heard!
[04:41] <z4k4ri4> I'm trying
[04:41] <|trey|> bob2_: ahh... I thought that was #ubuntu-meeting..
[04:41] <sabdfl> can we talk for a bit about derivatives?
[04:41] <z4k4ri4> What bother me the most is the gnome splash screen
[04:42] <Kinnison> sabdfl: true enough. Okay, I revise my suggestion to: Not on CD; in archive; not depended upon (which could result in strange accidental installation); package name 'ubuntu-artwork-human' and with a description which clearly states that it contains images which some cultures may find distasteful
[04:42] <|trey|> IMO, if the graphics offend anyone, they should be re-done or the old defaults should be kept...
[04:42] <BenNovack> z4k4ri4: Agreed
[04:42] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: what you mean about derivatives?
[04:42] <lucas_> uman: there are. in iran you can't walk around half-naked, for example
[04:42] <sabdfl> on the wiki i've describe the issue
[04:42] <Kamion> Kinnison: depended-upon would have germinate force it into desktop anyway, so you just mean 'in germinated supported seed'
[04:42] <dyn> z4k4ri4: you feel that the most offensive? would you feel offended to make it a choose-able alternative, not the default one? would you prefer abstract graphics as the default?
[04:42] <sabdfl> for warty, this is the only official release
[04:42] <uman> lucas_: but how far will you go ?
[04:42] <SepheeBear> i think the artwork gives the message to keep an open mind in general
[04:42] <sabdfl> but we expect that hoary will have many derivatives
[04:42] <xcasex> SepheeBear, agreed
[04:42] <sabdfl> each tailored for a specific industry or country
[04:43] <uman> if there is one tribe in africe that doesn't like showing your eye, will you forbid all depiction of eyes ?
[04:43] <Telep> sabdfl: I believe all over the world you will find a _significant_ amount of people who will be put off by half-naked people.
[04:43] <sabdfl> they may be coordinated by teams completely independent of what we do
[04:43] <dyn> whorey - as we heard today - lol
[04:43] <sabdfl> but we'll consider them official ubuntu derivatives
[04:43] <dyn> refering the artwork
[04:43] <dyn> (sorry)
[04:43] <uman> there has to be some measure of reason
[04:43] <Kamion> I'd expect it to be each derivative's choice ...? we're giving advice already by virtue of producing Ubuntu
[04:43] <z4k4ri4> dyn: But currently there is no user friendly way to change it
[04:43] <whiprush> derivates I think should depend on the derivative itself. ie. is it just "Joe's Linux, based on Ubuntu" or something else.
[04:43] <TheMuso> I believe that to allow for a useful Ubuntu installation for blind/vision impaired people, a separate derivitive is necessary.
[04:43] <JanneM> and a measure of reaason is, include it or make available, but make it optional
[04:43] <C2H5OH> hello all
[04:43] <uman> I'm fine with optional
[04:43] <uman> but it should be on the Cd
[04:44] <opi^work> and in archive
[04:44] <z4k4ri4> dyn: I prefer abstract picture
[04:44] <whiprush> then I think it depends on the usage of Ubuntu and other canonical stuff, similar to what RH does with their derivatives. ie. remove copyrighted artwork, etc. etc.
[04:44] <BenNovack> I'd say the splash absolutely has to go
[04:44] <yfir> sabdfl: not sure what you are asking us, but the idea of 'derivatives' sounds great
[04:44] <kfischer_> I think having different copies for different regions might be the best solution - granted, you always find somebody who is offended. But it's definitely the best choice to offer a tailored version for different region with different snsitivities.
[04:44] <sabdfl> should we require that the ubuntu derivative for the netherlands follow a code acceptable in iran?
[04:44] <yfir> no
[04:44] <JanneM> no
[04:44] <Telep> no
[04:44] <kfischer_> no
[04:44] <theantix> no
[04:44] <whiprush> no
[04:44] <perdix> no
[04:44] <morgs> no
[04:44] <ogra_> no
[04:44] <JanneM> and vice versa, of course
[04:45] <sabdfl> wow. consensus
[04:45] <crabbox> no
[04:45] <kfischer_> Wow...
[04:45] <Telep> :D
[04:45] <SepheeBear> i just hope this doesnt cause the Ubuntu community to split into two camps "shirts and skins"
[04:45] <jdub> sabdfl: i think it would be unfortunate to have derivatives made solely due to inadequacies in ubuntu itself (lame i18n, unfortunate choice of artwork, etc). that just dilutes ubuntu, without having a really good reason for the derivative.
[04:45] <whiprush> heh
[04:45] <z4k4ri4> no
[04:45] <littlepaul> no
[04:45] <JanneM> jdub: true
[04:45] <z4k4ri4> But make it clear that they could insult people in iran
[04:45] <crabbox> simple question and simple answer
[04:45] <JanneM> there are some things that are difficult to paper over, though
[04:45] <opi^work> but, OTOH, Muslim rules ofending my g
[04:45] <bdr> apt-get install ubuntu-desktop-muslim
[04:45] <Napo> dyn, ogra_, yfir: thanks for the help ;)
[04:45] <sabdfl> jdub: greatest common factor inevitably implies a certain amount of lowest common denominator, and derivatives are our way of breaking free of that
[04:45] <opi^work> gf
[04:45] <whiprush> plus if you restrict what an "official" derivative can do, people will just make it unofficial and drive one
[04:46] <kfischer_> someting like that is already done with games, blood and no-blood and such things..
[04:46] <JanneM> you include the Taiwanese flag and you are banned from China. You don't include it, and you piss off a lot of Taiwanese
[04:46] <uman> greatest common denominator is to respect the values of your fellow man
[04:46] <jdub> sabdfl: sure, but derivatives should be picking bigger fights.
[04:46] <uman> if other people don't want it on the CD, don't out it on there
[04:46] <jimi> export nudity_percent="50"
[04:46] <C2H5OH> is there any successful story about upgrading from sid to ubuntu ?
[04:46] <sabdfl> a fight is a fight, and this is something we need to figure out
[04:46] <sabdfl> taiwan and china is a good example
[04:46] <yfir> it gets difficult too: do you include a "basque" derivative? a "quebecoise" derivative? political decisions
[04:47] <sabdfl> kashmir . india, pakistan is another
[04:47] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: You should choose your fight well
[04:47] <Jon_of_the_Wired> I think this has gone wildly off-topic
[04:47] <Telep> yup
[04:47] <uman> it boils down to if you think that your artistic value is more important than other people's cultural values
[04:47] <yfir> jon, it hasn't. check the wicki-topic page
[04:47] <lucas_> jimi: http://dindinx.net/hotbabe/index.php might interest you =)
[04:47] <jdub> sabdfl: for instance, if a derivative (with the same goals as the general ubuntu) is made for a region just because we don't include five well integrated pacakges, that's lame.
[04:47] <uman> do you want a "world" distribution or don't you
[04:48] <JanneM> jdub: real example?
[04:48] <sabdfl> jdub: even if those packages are only applicable in that country? disagree
[04:48] <yfir> why don't you follow the "style guide" of the UN?
[04:48] <yfir> hehe
[04:48] <jimi> here why other distro dont put people on their themes :s
[04:48] <jdub> JanneM: including japanese input support and fonts
[04:48] <bdr> you have to decide somewhere. available but not default seems fine for a generally liberal westernish distro. Anything more extreme could be covered by derivatives or alternative CD isos.
[04:48] <JanneM> jdub: yep.
[04:48] <kfischer_> As an artist myself I can only say: go for the artistic value. But then this is not about art, isn't it?
[04:48] <sabdfl> ok, i got what i was looking for, which was a clear answer that derivatives are a separate kettle of fish
[04:48] <jimi> lucas thanks ^_
[04:48] <dyn> kfischer_: should be about both
[04:48] <sabdfl> and we can have derivatives that address different cultural norms
[04:48] <sabdfl> let's move on
[04:48] <jdub> JanneM: versus a tightly honed, minimal firewall derivative
[04:48] <Telep> I think the developers should see that the value of Ubuntu is not in having fancy artwork, but in the fact that it's a simple, easy linux distro.
[04:49] <lucas_> sabdfl: what's the point in having "official" derivates ?
[04:49] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: Can third party make derivatives easily?
[04:49] <JanneM> mm
[04:49] <uman> it has to be global
[04:49] <sabdfl> lucas_: it's a big world
[04:49] <sabdfl> let's talk about the gnomesplash screen in RC, it's the most controversial
[04:49] <uman> each culture still can have their optional items
[04:49] <daniels> (two cents: needing derivatives to address cultural sensitivities is probably indicative of a shortcoming in the first place, as jdub alluded to)
[04:49] <sabdfl> because it is the hardest to change
[04:49] <dyn> it's the worst of all
[04:49] <empop> why?
[04:49] <Keybuk> lucas_: a group of people might want to produce a derivative of Ubuntu with KDE instead of GNOME ... if they're willing to follow the Ubuntu code of conduct, etc. there's no reason not to bless them as an official derivative
[04:49] <bdr> lucas: couldn't you just scipt the building of different isos? depending on region/morals etc
[04:50] <Telep> sabdfl: it should definately be replaced.
[04:50] <sabdfl> i'm convinced from the mailing list and forum discussion that we can't ship it as the default
[04:50] <Telep> ok
[04:50] <jmchugh> agreed
[04:50] <JanneM> mm
[04:50] <yfir> agree
[04:50] <crabbox> gnome splash is same as other artwork. change the people non defautl and same goes for the gdm
[04:50] <bdr> yes
[04:50] <ogra_> sad but yes
[04:50] <opi^work> sabdfl: maybe Ubuntu/Gnome logo instead?
[04:50] <BenNovack> The splash is the worst of them all
[04:50] <sabdfl> crabbox: one at a time please
[04:50] <uman> it all boils down to what goals you have, do you want to make a global distribution or not
[04:50] <flubie> crabbox: agreed
[04:50] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: What do you use instead?
[04:50] <xcasex> uman it's not black and white.
[04:50] <uman> do you want to split it up into regional a distributions or not
[04:50] <nosilver4u> that was quite difficult to change, and most non tech-savvy people would have been stuck with a splash they didn't appreciate
[04:50] <Telep> someone suggested a picture of the Earth bathing in sunlight - sounds nice to me :)
[04:50] <yfir> two suggestions: 1) make it non-default, 2) develop a gui way to easily change the splash screen
[04:50] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: The old one?
[04:50] <Jon_of_the_Wired> down that road lies infinite complexity
[04:51] <uman> xcasex: to an extent it is
[04:51] <nosilver4u> i would be all for an easier way to change the splash
[04:51] <jmchugh> yfir: that would be ideal
[04:51] <C2H5OH> is there any successful story about upgrading from sid to ubuntu ?
[04:51] <nosilver4u> so i'm with yfir
[04:51] <opi^work> maybe we should have groups working on something similar to translations teams? ubuntu-pl-artwork.deb, ubuntu-jp-artwork.deb
[04:51] <sabdfl> we will produce a new gnomesplash to be the default
[04:51] <jdub> sabdfl: if we switch the splash back to the ubuntu logo, i don't think it's worth bothering shipping alternative splashes, until perhaps hoary (when it might be part of the gnome metatheme).
[04:51] <uman> I liked the artwork very much, but I'll defent the right of someone from a different cultural background not having it as a default
[04:51] <bdr> yfir:seconded and 2) is very easy
[04:51] <whiprush> adding a tool to change the splash isn't a solution, I shouldn't have to change it.
[04:51] <pitti> C2H5OH: I doubt that this works
[04:51] <lucas_> Keybuk: but it means you will have to do support work for them. Anyway it is OT, so dont reply =)
[04:51] <Keybuk> sabdfl: what about /usr/share/pixmaps/splash/ubuntu-logo-508x340.png ?
[04:52] <xcasex> uman, so if we're going down the cultural sensitivity path, we need to factor in all the other aspects.
[04:52] <sabdfl> Keybuk: perhaps, with tweaks
[04:52] <jimi> i would like to see the earth, too =)
[04:52] <sabdfl> i'm not looking for creative suggestions as to what we might ship
[04:52] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: Can we have a look before you put it in our desktop?
[04:52] <kfischer_> Sorry, sabdfl, I think the right step would be to include it in general in the original distribution and create the derivates you mentioned
[04:52] <jimi> ok
[04:52] <yfir> ship it as non default then. eeryone is happy that way
[04:52] <bdr> whiprush: no, but many will want to, whatever the GNOME ideal of non-configurability says
[04:52] <tof__> hi all
[04:52] <uman> I wished that the naked human form wouldn't offend so many people
[04:52] <nosilver4u> whiprush: that's just a suggestion to make it a better distro, the first step was to change the bootsplash
[04:52] <sabdfl> z4k4ri4: we can send a notice of the package updates to the list, but there will not be time to change it again before release
[04:52] <uman> it's what we all are
[04:52] <xcasex> they arent *that* naked
[04:53] <yfir> uman: so do i but it does unfortunately
[04:53] <BenNovack> They're very naked
[04:53] <Telep> naked enough
[04:53] <opi^work> uman: me too, but what we going to do? :)
[04:53] <xcasex> and if that amount of nudity offends people
[04:53] <crabbox> drawn aboriginal pictures from different countries
[04:53] <tof__> anyone know how i can configure xprint to print from firefox ?
[04:53] <xcasex> they need to get out more.
[04:53] <BenNovack> There are a *lot* of people who are offended by that level of nudity - in the wallpaper, it really looks to a lot of poeple like there's about to be a threesome.
[04:53] <sabdfl> tof__: we're in an artwork discussion, should be done inn about 30 minutes
[04:53] <bdr> if someone tried to go to work in an office dressed like that, I doubt they'd have a job very long
[04:53] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: I mean it is better to have community to look at it to avoid further controversy
[04:53] <uman> you could do them like the lil symobls on the toilets
[04:53] <uman> just symbolized humans
[04:54] <uman> I'll keep the real ones as wallpaper, though
[04:54] <xcasex> sladen it is
[04:54] <Keybuk> sladen: hasn't got us any yet, has it?
[04:54] <pitti> sladen: first impression
[04:54] <tof__> sabdfl, ok thx and sorry ;)
[04:54] <ogra_> slan: sadly yes
[04:54] <uman> all you have to decide is if you want to go for the lowest common denominator, or not
[04:54] <sabdfl> tof__: no worries
[04:54] <thisfred> symbolized humans aren't acceptable to some muslims either
[04:54] <bdr> as long as they spell ubuntu right
[04:54] <C2H5OH> pitti: I was curious about it, I'm gogin to test the liveCD before I install
[04:54] <nosilver4u> thisfred: you serious?
[04:54] <Telep> uman: whatever you think about how nudity _should_ be treated, you can't just ignore
[04:54] <thisfred> yes
[04:55] <pitti> C2H5OH: upgrade from woody or reinstall from scratch
[04:55] <yfir> sladen: makes sense though - if Ubuntu bills itself as the 'accessible, humanized' linux, then this is a perfectly expected issue to face
[04:55] <sabdfl> ok, so on the gnomesplash, should we include this image as an option on the cd?
[04:55] <JanneM> uman: on this, lowest common denominator is probably reasonable
[04:55] <crabbox> yes
[04:55] <whiprush> yes
[04:55] <JanneM> yes
[04:55] <empop> yes
[04:55] <opi^work> hope the Planet wouldn't offend anyone, some people thinks that earth is flat
[04:55] <kfischer_> no
[04:55] <C2H5OH> pitti:  I have sid now, fortunately my /home is in a different partition
[04:55] <bdr> "some" muslims? What fraction are we talking about?
[04:55] <thisfred> I think the quran forbids it, but there are differneces in interpretation
[04:55] <yfir> yes
[04:55] <mirak_-> this argument/discussion has gone on for way to long to not just say "we will leave it out, but it is available here"
[04:55] <ogra_> sabdfl: yes
[04:55] <BenNovack> yes, but it CANNOT be the default
[04:55] <Telep> uman: ... the fact that imagery like that has lot's of sexual meaning even in liberal, western societies
[04:55] <bdr> yes
[04:55] <theantix> sabdfl: I'm not clear as to how that would work?  as a install option?
[04:55] <nosilver4u> mirak: agreed
[04:55] <sabdfl> kfischer_: why no? you're the only voice against including it as an option
[04:55] <jdub> i don't think it's worth bothering shipping secondary splash images, until perhaps hoary (when it might be part of the gnome metatheme).
[04:55] <sabdfl> ?
[04:55] <uman> option, yes
[04:56] <z4k4ri4> thisfred: It is not forbid in quran but in sunnah or the interpretation of sunnah
[04:56] <empop> could it be linked to the monthly calendar?
[04:56] <sabdfl> theantix: you would need to install it yourself, using the same process you can currently use to remove it
[04:56] <thisfred> ty z4k4ri4
[04:56] <thisfred> I'm not an expert
[04:56] <theantix> sabdfl: okay, that would be fine
[04:56] <Keybuk> sabdfl: I tend to agree with jdub here ... there's little reason to ship more than one splash screen as they're a bugger to change
[04:56] <sect2k> why would the splashscreen/loginscreen issue be any different than wallpaper issuse
[04:56] <sabdfl> sect2k: more difficult to change
[04:56] <nosilver4u> yeah, unless you do the whole gui splashscreen changer
[04:56] <bdr> sorry to repeat myself, but use gteakui and it's much easier
[04:57] <nosilver4u> (besides gconf)
[04:57] <mirak_-> isnt that already available in gnome?
[04:57] <Keybuk> (though, likewise, I guess there's little reason not to ship more than one *shrug*)
[04:57] <jdub> there's no cost in having it on disk
[04:57] <sabdfl> Keybuk: it could also be automatically installed when you install the calendar desktop
[04:57] <jdub> but it's not as if it's a feature
[04:57] <z4k4ri4> May be complete background theme that change gdm, splash screen and wallpaper
[04:57] <yfir> point is, those tools aren't easily findable by a beginning linux user
[04:57] <sect2k> sabdfl1: but the resolution should be the same, default no, as choice ok, no?
[04:57] <nosilver4u> no, but it's pointless to work on alternatives if few people will use them
[04:58] <jdub> sabdfl: that's doable, but additional complexity, and requires the user to reconfigure the splash manually to choose the 'calendar' version
[04:58] <sabdfl> sect2k: possibly, i'm just checking on the issue, people may feel differently about different images
[04:58] <uman> in the end, you should be able to chose your own "theme" from some webpage, but the default shoule be as least offencive as possivle
[04:58] <uman> possible
[04:58] <sabdfl> jdub: gconftool call on calendar artwork postinst, surely?
[04:58] <sect2k> sabdf1: i agree, but in my opinion, wallpaper is less contraversial than login/splash
[04:58] <BenNovack> Okay, I'm confident I'll be content with the conclusion, based on what I'm hearing... gotta do some homework.
[04:58] <Keybuk> sabdfl: would change it for everyone, not just those that select the calendar theme
[04:58] <ogra_> sabdfl: i'm very sad it has to go, but apparantly it has
[04:58] <jdub> sabdfl: that means changing the default for all users when installing that package. not good.
[04:59] <guptan> Hi Room
[04:59] <sabdfl> Keybuk: common case is one user per machine
[04:59] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: When the meeting will be finish
[04:59] <mirak_-> never
[04:59] <sabdfl> z4k4ri4: about another 25 minutes i think
[04:59] <littlepaul> ;-(
[04:59] <Telep> I doubt the meeting will be ever in Finnish ;)
[05:00] <sabdfl> Telep: unlikely to be as much of a debate, certainly :-)
[05:00] <Telep> (aaargh, I'm so funny today)
[05:00] <jdub> sabdfl: that may be the common case, but it's very un-golden-rule to change everyone's default when installing a package
[05:00] <JanneM> well, some of us could manage :)
[05:00] <bdr> sabdfl: Not necessarily. I would imagine many have one main plus several occaisional users (wife/kids/gf)
[05:00] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: Have you decide yet?
[05:00] <Telep> yes, not everyone lives in a basement :)
[05:01] <sabdfl> you mean your wife might like it but gf disapproves?
[05:01] <Telep> believe it or not :)
[05:01] <JanneM> bdr: but in that case, it is also reasonable for them to do an estimation on whether it sould be acceptabel
[05:01] <Telep> sabdfl: :D
[05:01] <sabdfl> z4k4ri4: no, not yet
[05:01] <ogra_> sabdfl: lol
[05:01] <JanneM> they are not unknown people
[05:01] <sabdfl> ok, let's move on
[05:01] <sabdfl> the calendar desktop wallpapers
[05:01] <z4k4ri4> Will you decide when the meeting over? or we should wait more?
[05:01] <JanneM> option, but _please_ keep the calendar idea
[05:01] <jdub> setting a gconf default on unrelated pacakge install is something we should avoid in general
[05:01] <whiprush> agree with JanneM
[05:01] <sabdfl> first let me apologise for the fact that these suddenly became default for people who had looked at the backgrounds during preview
[05:01] <crabbox> keep the calender idea
[05:02] <dyn> sabdfl: can the calendar pics somewhere checked online? i haven't seen them (and am currently on gentoo)
[05:02] <bdr> I get in trouble for moving icons on my gf's desktop, for god's sake.
[05:02] <z4k4ri4> What about not one calendar but multiple calendar
[05:02] <JanneM> z4k4ri4: probably a good deal of work
[05:02] <opi^work> I don't know what calendar is (running Ubuntu/custom;-) so I remain quiet :)
[05:02] <bdr> agreed, it's a nice idea
[05:02] <theantix> current situation (installed but not selected by default) is fine with me -- if it is too risque for your org you won't choose it
[05:02] <Telep> I think the calendar idea is cool, but don't undestand why the calendar pics should depict naked people :/
[05:02] <JanneM> opi^work: cutomagically changing backgrounds every month
[05:02] <ogra_> opi^work: monthly changing background
[05:03] <yfir> callendar is great, but again not as default
[05:03] <opi^work> It won't work with XFce4, so I can not decite :)
[05:03] <sladen> Telep: what would be your opinion on naked animals?
[05:03] <Telep> sladen: is that a serious question? :)
[05:03] <sabdfl> ok, we have been working on splitting out the calendar as a separate artwork package
[05:03] <yfir> shaved animals are a no no!
[05:03] <sabdfl> if this is removed, then the calendar desktops are not available at all
[05:03] <Telep> :D
[05:04] <kfischer_> I vote for: include them
[05:04] <ogra_> sabdfl: but the possibility stays ?
[05:04] <sabdfl> the calendar will not be the default desktop
[05:04] <crabbox> include them
[05:04] <yfir> i vote: include
[05:04] <sabdfl> but should the calendar be installed and available by default?
[05:04] <JanneM> include
[05:04] <empop> that sounds fine (though i like it better as default)
[05:04] <z4k4ri4> sabdfl: I agree with that
[05:04] <ogra_> inc !
[05:04] <jdub> no
[05:04] <kfischer_> yes
[05:04] <opi^work> yes
[05:04] <Telep> sabdfl: include them, but don't install them by default
[05:04] <yfir> available yes
[05:04] <whiprush> no
[05:04] <perdix> no
[05:04] <lamont> ship, not installed
[05:05] <jsc> yes
[05:05] <ari_> Maybe any pictures of humans (or other problematic pictures) should be made available in such way that you can never get them on your screen accidentally (for example when when just browsing around your fresh system, trying to get familiar with it)
[05:05] <Nonphasis> ship, not default
[05:05] <morgs> ship, not installed
[05:05] <yfir> but not "used" as background. (if that's what you mean by installed)
[05:05] <theantix> ship, not installed
[05:05] <flubie> include, not default
[05:05] <opi^work> why not installed but not used as default?
[05:05] <crabbox> yes
[05:05] <Telep> no
[05:05] <sabdfl> yfir: it will not show up unless you select it in the list
[05:05] <lamont> yfir: on the cd, not on the hard drive  == ship, not installed
[05:05] <sect2k> it should be installed and avaliable by default, but not selected as default
[05:05] <yfir> yes, agree then. ship, not installed
[05:06] <bdr> maybe some start up (first time login) dialog? Which theme, calendar yes/no etc?
[05:06] <Nonphasis> cd? forget the cd, ppl discard it anyway
[05:06] <jimi> yeah
[05:06] <jdub> bdr: we'd like to avoid that kind of thing (installer, startup thingy) as much as possible
[05:06] <bdr> Nonphasis:not if you have dialup
[05:06] <jimi> +1 for "first boot wizard"
[05:06] <bdr> jdub:ok
[05:06] <lamont> Nonphasis: I don't care if the .deb gets copied into /var/cache/apt/archives
[05:06] <Telep> I think even having it available in the list of wallpapers will be a problem to some - as sabdfl said.
[05:06] <sabdfl> lamont: i'm not sure that it does
[05:07] <yfir> well, good luck with this everyone. got to go.
[05:07] <crabbox> cheers yfir
[05:07] <kfischer_> Having it available may cause problems? I seriously doubt that...
[05:07] <Nonphasis> hard drive space is cheap, so of course it should be available
[05:07] <z4k4ri4> It should be available but not installed as default
[05:07] <opi^work> Ok, im happy with conslusions
[05:08] <opi^work> time to leave office
[05:08] <bdr> it's like 20 pixels across in the background list - surely not a problem?
[05:08] <opi^work> thanks for Ubuntu :)
[05:08] <maswan> lamont: the issue is that getting caught in customs with pics of people without "sufficient" cloathing can be a real issue for some countries. for local values for "sufficient". :/
[05:08] <Telep> kfischer_: well if someone objects to that kind of images, they won't like it if they accidentally click on the image in the list - and that's not esp. difficult to do.
[05:08] <sabdfl> opi^work: no conclusions yet
[05:08] <Kamion> lamont: we're not doing that with Ship for warty, will do for hoary
[05:08] <opi^work> sabdfl: but I see where it's heading
[05:08] <flubie> opi^work: what conclusions?
[05:08] <Kamion> lamont: (because we needed to create an apt archive for Ship, and that was delicate ...)
[05:08] <opi^work> sabdfl: will there be any summary posted to ML?
[05:09] <sabdfl> opi^work: yes, i'll follow up to previous mail
[05:09] <opi^work> flubie: I think most of us agree that controversial stuff should be keeped, yet, not installed as default :)
[05:09] <opi^work> sabdfl: thank you
[05:09] <z4k4ri4> For once I agree with opi^work
[05:09] <sparkes> opi^work, that's good should please more than it upsets
[05:09] <opi^work> ;->
[05:09] <sabdfl> opi^work: sure
[05:10] <sabdfl> last, let's look at the login screen
[05:10] <sabdfl> same questions
[05:10] <ogra_> keep it keep it keep it
[05:10] <kfischer_> I second that
[05:10] <whiprush> ship, not as default.
[05:10] <SepheeBear> login screeen is awesome
[05:10] <empop> again, i like the concept
[05:10] <z4k4ri4> ship not installed
[05:10] <ogra_> keep it as defaul t
[05:10] <crabbox> ship, no default
[05:10] <empop> keep
[05:10] <theantix> ship, not as default
[05:11] <TheMuso> Ship, no default.
[05:11] <perdix> ship, don't make it default
[05:11] <Nonphasis> install, not default
[05:11] <sect2k> have it as an option, but not as default
[05:11] <bdr> I wouldn't use it, was the first thing I changed. a bit goofy looking
[05:11] <chadkiser> not as default but shipped
[05:11] <JanneM> people have less problems with it, but still enough do that it may not be acceptable as default
[05:11] <faaip> install, not default
[05:11] <lkx> ship, not default
[05:11] <vrln> the old non-photograph login screen was perfect
[05:11] <sanitario> ship, not default
[05:11] <jdub> installed, not default
[05:11] <flubie> ship, not default
[05:11] <johnlevin> not default
[05:11] <vrln> ship, not default
[05:11] <SepheeBear> default
[05:11] <seb128> not the default
[05:11] <JanneM> installed
[05:11] <bdr> agreed, ship not default is fine
[05:11] <sanitario> installed, not default
[05:11] <sabdfl> ok, so broad consensus against it as the default, but no on installation
[05:11] <Jon_of_the_Wired> and please give us the old one back.  Happy Gnome is much to blue for ubuntu.
[05:12] <z4k4ri4> yes
[05:12] <whiprush> yes
[05:12] <jsc> yes
[05:12] <lkx> yes :)
[05:12] <TheMuso> yes
[05:12] <crabbox> yes
[05:12] <thully> I liked the old one
[05:12] <perdix> jo
[05:12] <bdr> yes
[05:12] <jmchugh> yes
[05:12] <flubie> me too
[05:12] <sabdfl> that's enough consensus people, it's startling
[05:12] <kfischer_> no
[05:12] <z4k4ri4> They should be one package with the rest of "controversial pictures"
[05:12] <sabdfl> thanks
[05:12] <ogra_> no
[05:12] <jsc> eheheh
[05:12] <whiprush> heh
[05:12] <lkx> we need more of the same votes ;)
[05:12] <whiprush> we're on a roll
[05:12] <sabdfl> ok, last item in the wiki agenda
[05:13] <JanneM> cow?
[05:13] <Henrik> Not default this time, but bring back a new login for the next release where the people have slightly more clothes
[05:13] <asw> my 2cents: the wrong image found on a person's hard-drive could mean they lose their job or worse.  I think "Ship not installed" is a reasonable comprimise for all artwork in the distribution that could be culturally offensive. (And what isn't offensive in some culture or other?)
[05:13] <sabdfl> OTHER than artwork, is there anything else that we need to look at for cultural analysis in the RC?