[00:00] <nhandler> Next up is pleia2 who will talk about Ubuntu Women
[00:00]  * ^arky^ thanks nhandler
[00:00] <pleia2> Hi everyone :)
[00:00] <pleia2> Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week Session on the Ubuntu Women Project!
[00:00] <pleia2> My name is Elizabeth Krumbach. I currently work as a Debian and Ubuntu Systems Administrator for a Philadelphia-based Linux-centric technology services provider. I became involved in the Ubuntu Women project as soon as I found out about it in the spring of 2006.
[00:00] <pleia2> Aside from Ubuntu Women work, I'm currently heavily involved with the LoCo Teams projects, specifically with my own state of Pennsylvania and the greater work of the US Teams Mentoring program. I also work on the Ubuntu Classroom project, which has recently started working the the Ubuntu Community Learning Project. On the technical side within the community I contribute upstream as a Debian Package Maintainer.
[00:01] <pleia2> In this session I'm going to give a general introduction to the project, explain why we feel such a project is important, give you details about our project resources, provide tips on what people can do to combat disrespectful behavior within the community, and I'll wrap things up with a Q&A session.
[00:01] <pleia2> I'll also pause to ask for questions from #ubuntu-classroom-chat at regular intervals, please prefix your questions with QUESTION: so they're easy for us to find :)
[00:02] <pleia2> To begin, the official website for the Ubuntu Women project is http://ubuntu-women.org. From there you can get to all our other resources, including our Mailing list, Forums, Launchpad and Wiki.
[00:02] <pleia2> The project was loosely founded on the forums and in IRC in the summer of 2005. It was extended by Vidya Ayer to mailing lists and a website, and became an official team in early 2006.
[00:03] <pleia2> Intitally it was modeled closely after the Debian Women (http://women.debian.org) project, but since their focus was primarily getting women to become Developers it quickly became apparent that the Ubuntu Women approach would have to have a much broader focus, encouraging women to be a part of every facet of Ubuntu.
[00:04] <pleia2> Before I get into the details of the project, I want to emphasise that we have a very serious committment to not being separatist or exclusive.
[00:05] <pleia2> If you join our IRC channel, mailing list or forums you'll find both men and women involved in the project. We have no gender requirement placed upon our members, anyone who is interested in getting more women involved is welcome to join us.
[00:05] <pleia2> Now, while we do provide a separate place for discussion, the main goal of the project is to get more women involved with the general Ubuntu community. Separatism would defeat this goal.
[00:06] <pleia2> Ultimately the "#1 Bug" in the Ubuntu Women Project is the need for the project to exist at all! We would like to be able to dissolve the project in the future when more women are comfortable getting involved.
[00:06] <pleia2> Now for the specifics. The project has grown to primarily focus upon:
[00:07] <pleia2> 1. Support and Encouragement
[00:07] <Stustoph> .
[00:07] <pleia2> This is probably the most vital function of the project today. As much as we wish it wasn't the case, there is still sexism within the Ubuntu community. Sometimes it's the quite mild addressing of a group of Ubuntu people as "gentlemen" and sometimes it's brutal public "jokes" targeted at women that men and women alike may find offensive.
[00:08] <pleia2> Whatever the situation, it's helpful to have a place to discuss things and ask questions. Do the actions <here> bother anyone else? Is this <unfortunate event> worth reporting to the project leadership? Should I approach <person> about their actions that made me uncomfortable? Talking things out with folks who can sympathize and share your experiences goes a long way to keeping people involved with a project when events occur that are troubling
[00:08] <pleia2> The Ubuntu Women outlets (IRC, mailing lists, forums) are also a great place to discuss current events relating to Women within general F/OSS, sharing success stories from other projects and using those examples to work toward improving the community for everyone.
[00:09] <pleia2> 2. Mentoring and Direction
[00:09] <pleia2> Due to the low percentage of women involved in F/OSS in general, Ubuntu is often the first project they get involved with. The first question that we get on the mailing list or on IRC from women new to the project is generally "How can I help Ubuntu?" which we answer and attempt to match them up with projects and contacts (possibly mentors) within the projects to get them going.
[00:10] <pleia2> Don't men encounter this too? Absolutely, and we certainly wouldn't turn away a man asking the same question, but we've chosen to make our focus getting more women involved and offering level-entry support is part of that.
[00:11] <pleia2> Two of the resources we most frequently point to are: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu both of which are linked on our Get Involved page: http://ubuntu-women.org/getinv.html
[00:11] <pleia2> 3. Highlight active women within the community
[00:11] <pleia2> Most people who are heavily involved with F/OSS have a number of people they look up to. For a lot of people it's helpful to have someone they can relate to, perhaps of their own gender. I know in my case joining LinuxChix and finally getting to see women in prominent places within the community not only helped me strive to follow in their footsteps, it made me feel less alone as a woman involved in the projects.
[00:12] <pleia2> To highlight women in the community we have recently launched an Interview series ( http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Interviews ) which has been appearing in Full Circle Magazine ( http://fullcirclemagazine.org/ )
[00:13] <pleia2> We also have a profiles page on our wiki showing who some other women involved are, where they are located and what they are involved with: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Profiles
[00:13] <pleia2> In addition, we work to post news on the mailing list when women within the community make the news, are involved in exciting projects or any other inspiring stories.
[00:13] <pleia2> One more point and I'll get to the questions raised already before moving on :)
[00:13] <pleia2> 4. Education on Sexism and Feminism
[00:14] <pleia2> Perhaps unintentional, our project has become a popular place for discussions of general feminism (equality) and sexism. We frequently have men and women joining our channel to learn about the issues, so much so that we've created a wiki page full of links relating to the issues: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/ChallengingSexism
[00:15] <pleia2> This has turned out to be a valuable job of our project. Most people aren't intentionally sexist and a lot of the people who join our forums, mailing list or IRC channel with questions about why the project exist genuinely wish to understand why so many successful women within the Ubuntu project choose to spend time on Ubuntu Women.
[00:15] <pleia2> A lot of folks joining also want to know what they can do to help, which I'll get to momentarily.
[00:15] <pleia2> Ok, I'm going to move on to why we believe the project is important and ways that you can help attract more women to your project(s), but first - questions?
[00:16] <maco> ok just a sec...
 QUESTION: how do you measure when more women are comfortable getting involved?
[00:17] <pleia2> Good question. We don't have a statistic or quantitative goal at this point because be ratio is still so poor.
[00:17] <jhass840> maco: I think the questions are being asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[00:17] <maco> jhass840: i'm the paster
 QUESTION: What is the ratio of social to technical discussion as a whole? And is the social aspect of it welcome? :)
[00:17] <pleia2> I think even hitting a goal of 10% involvement would be huge - already I'm seeing as more women become involved, more join
[00:18] <pleia2> elk80: the FLOSSPOL report is frequently referenced to answer this question: http://www.flosspols.org/deliverables/FLOSSPOLS-D16-Gender_Integrated_Report_of_Findings.pdf
[00:18] <pleia2> it indicates that about 1.5% of FLOSS community members were female, compared with 28% in proprietary software
[00:18] <pleia2> oh, I misread
[00:18] <pleia2> hehe
[00:18] <maco> (sorry, i jumped the gun on that question)
[00:19] <pleia2> sorry! right, perhaps clarify the question, do we mean technical vs social within the project?
[00:19] <elk80> You mentioned dissolving the project when deemed complete..
[00:19] <elk80> If/when that should occur, will the project or some deriv. continue as a social hub?
[00:20] <pleia2> gotcha, I think it might, but perhaps not as an official Ubuntu project any longer
[00:20]  * elk80 nods :)
[00:20] <maco> pleia2: ready for the next one?
[00:21] <pleia2> maco: fire away! :)
 QUESTION: so would you consider Ubuntu Women more marketing to women, advocating on behalf of women to Ubuntu, or refereeing to make sure there is a level playing field?
[00:21] <LaserJock> or all-of-the-above ;-)
[00:21] <pleia2> good question!
[00:22] <pleia2> I think ultimately it's all about Ubuntu itself, we want as many contributors as possible and for us that means tapping into that 50% of the population that often feels left out of FOSS
[00:22] <hypa7ia> we can't solve bug #1 without women, after all :)
[00:22] <pleia2> we also do some refereeing, there are women who come to us when they have problems and we'll step up and help out
[00:23] <pleia2> next?
[00:23] <lamalex> that's not what structural means
[00:24] <maco> h/o
 Question: Aren't the same issues exist also for visible minorities? Also, how much does the anonymity through screen names make a difference?
[00:24] <maco> lamalex: wrong chan
[00:24] <lamalex> maco: my scroll key keeps messing up, i didnt even realize i posted that
[00:24] <lamalex> sorry!
[00:25] <pleia2> I believe there may be problems for other minorities, but I'm not familiar with them, since I'm familiar with the problems facing women I work on this project :)
[00:26] <maco> next?
[00:26] <pleia2> anonymity through a screen name certainly helps some people (there are women I encounter in the community who still won't say in public that they are female)
[00:26] <pleia2> but I don't know really, I've always been very open about my gender
[00:26] <pleia2> next!
 QUESTION: can you give an estimate on how many "incidents" there are in Ubuntu?
[00:27] <pleia2> Not really, it depends on a lot of factors - how public the incident is, whether it was reported to anyone or just made someone walk away immediately
[00:27] <pleia2> I will say that things have improved over the past couple years, and Ubuntu is, in general, a really fantastic project to work on when compared to some others
[00:28] <pleia2> next?
[00:28] <maco> that's it
[00:29] <pleia2> ah yes, I was just reminded of something recently
[00:29] <maco> oh hold on
[00:29] <maco> one more
[00:30] <pleia2> on the day we were all working to improve the LoCo docs, we came across one that aside from calling every potential person you'd try to get to try Ubuntu "him"
[00:30] <pleia2> there was a suggestion of using "booth babes"
[00:30] <pleia2> this was on the Ubuntu wiki, included in guidelines for conferences
[00:30] <pleia2> hooray for wikis, we were able to clean this all up :) but it felt quite unfortunate that someone had thought through enough to actually put it up there in the first place
[00:31] <pleia2> ok, questions
[00:31] <maco> don't forget what else it said
[00:31] <pleia2> oh right
[00:31] <pleia2> it also said that if a woman comes to your booth "dont talk about tech. talk about nelson mandela and sharing"
[00:32] <maco> ok questions... lemme grab
 QUESTION:   Maybe to help with market share for non technical people, if the  circle of friends was used more for example,  it  would attract more females to Ubuntu?
[00:33] <pleia2> I think more use such a thing would attact more PEOPLE in general, not specifically women, there is still a huge theory out there that you have to be a "programmer" to contribute anything
[00:33] <pleia2> next?
[00:33]  * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
 QUESTION: Are women detered in participating in FLOSS mainly due to discrimination or are there other "hidden" structures to blame that give women less incentives to join?
[00:35] <pleia2> There is a lot of research on why that low 28% in proprietary software exists that links it to social things, girls not being encouraged in tech things as much as boys, so females learning about the awesomeness of tech stuff later
[00:35] <pleia2> so you have a smaller pool starting out, often (this isn't true of the entire world, luckily)
[00:35] <pleia2> so you start with a smaller pool, and then they join and run into discrimination
[00:36] <pleia2> I don't know really how many just walk away at this point, but I do know several women who have changed careers entirely and dropped foss involvement because of discrimination
[00:36] <pleia2> next?
 QUESTION: Do you think that anonymity through screen names can also serve as a detriment to the project?
[00:37] <hypa7ia> that one i can answer with a link
[00:37] <hypa7ia> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/
[00:37] <pleia2> yes :( but I sympathize with their reasons, not everyone wants to "help the cause" - some people would like to spend all their time getting work done
[00:37] <pleia2> "work done" that is not encouraging other women, I mean
[00:37] <pleia2> specifically project work
[00:38] <pleia2> next?
 QUESTION: you know something...I have been in this goofy free software world now since about 1993/1994...and it wasn't until Ubuntu that I really saw a problem and witnessed on more than one occasion an issue, do you think that is because Ubuntu has become so huge that we are seeing the issues and that there is a need for the Ubuntu Women team?
[00:38] <pleia2> interesting
[00:39] <pleia2> I've encountered bad behavior from the first weeks I stepped into the Linux world back in 2002
[00:39] <pleia2> by 2003 I was working to create a local LinuxChix chapter in Philadelphia
[00:39] <pleia2> so maybe it's a matter of perspective, to me LinuxChix has always been vital because things have always been tough
[00:40] <pleia2> I got involved Ubuntu Women once I was already pretty secure :)
[00:40] <pleia2> and Debian Women existed prior, perhaps because of projects like Ubuntu getting such attention more people care about broadening involvement?
[00:40] <pleia2> next?
 QUESTION: has the community manager been appraised of UDS participation for active contributors in #ubuntu-women?
[00:41] <pleia2> I'm not sure, I don't think so
[00:42] <pleia2> I think we want to pause the questions for a few moments so I can finish up my script :)
[00:42] <pleia2> we'll get to as many as we can after
[00:43] <pleia2> So why do we feel this project is important? We've covered this some already.
[00:43] <pleia2> Simply put, those of us who are involved with Ubuntu Women believe that everyone can be a valuable resource for the Ubuntu project and we should work to be inclusive and encouraging. We've chosen to focus upon becoming well-versed in the issues currently facing women specifically in the community so we can shape our program to cater to them.
[00:43] <pleia2> We understand that not everyone shares in these viewpoints, methods or goals, which is really a great thing about F/OSS - you don't have to. And if you're sincerely interested in getting involved we're always open to constructive discussion.
[00:44] <pleia2> (as an aside, let us know you're there to be helpful, we get a lot of trolls and while we work hard not to brush people off, if people join #ubuntu-women looking like they're trying to start a fight, we'll act accordingly)
[00:44] <hypa7ia> or trying to hit on people!
[00:44] <maco> or rant about their wives
[00:45] <Bodsda> s/wives/girlfriends
[00:45] <pleia2> So, you want to help Ubuntu be more friendly to women? The easy answer is to strive to make it more friendly to everyone! But there are a couple of specific resources to review if you'd like to focus on women:
[00:45] <pleia2> HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux: http://valerieaurora.org/howto.html which is the canonical resource we point to for people who want a glimpse into the key things they can do (and avoid!) when working to get women involved with Linux
[00:45] <pleia2> Dorothea Salo: What Some Folks Can Do, If They Choose: http://cavlec.yarinareth.net/archives/2007/03/30/what-some-folks-can-do-if-they-choose/ which discusses how men can stand up when they see sexist or other inappropriate behavior that drives people away
[00:46] <pleia2> and I had the one from gregknicholson which I read earlier in the day: http://brown-betty.livejournal.com/305643.html
[00:46] <pleia2> That's all I've got :) We can get back to questions.
 QUESTION:  I don't think theres an issue with guys getting other guys into opensource/freesoftware, but how to get  females to encoruge other females to do so?
[00:47] <pleia2> for me, the most valuable thing for getting other females involved is to show them that I'm doing it
[00:48] <pleia2> that goes much further than you'd think :)
[00:48] <sebsebseb> pleia2: or if a guy like me,  maybe  show them that other women do it?
[00:48] <pleia2> sebsebseb: sure!
[00:49] <maco> sebsebseb: did you see mdz and james_w's posts on Planet Ubuntu for Ada Lovelace Day, showing their female-tech heroines? There's an example
[00:49] <pleia2> I recently had a fellow join our LoCo channel who said he had a lot of success in getting women he knew interested after showing them stuff about Ubuntu Women and LinuxChix, it made me smile :)
[00:49] <pleia2> next?
[00:49] <sebsebseb> maco: nope don't know what your talking about, got a link?
[00:50] <maco> http://jameswestby.net/weblog/tech/09-lady-day.html and http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/03/25/ada-lovelace-day/
[00:50] <pleia2> thanks maco :)
[00:50] <sebsebseb> maco: ok thanks  I'll have a look
[00:50] <maco> it's about showing role models, and that's something you can do
[00:50] <sebsebseb> yep
[00:50] <maco> ready for the next one?
[00:50] <pleia2> yep
[00:50] <hypa7ia> there's recent research showing too that role models are even more important for women than men
[00:50] <hypa7ia> just sayin'
[00:50] <hypa7ia> :)
 QUESTION: is it effective to market Ubuntu to young women with the color pink, or potentially offensive?
[00:51] <pleia2> only if they like pink :)
[00:51]  * pleia2 knows loads of young women who can't stand it
[00:51] <hypa7ia> it is potentially problematic
[00:51] <pleia2> I think the color is far less important than how it's presented in general
[00:51] <hypa7ia> stereotyping and all
[00:51] <hypa7ia> yeah
[00:51] <hypa7ia> ^^
[00:51] <maco> along that line...
 QUESTION: A previous question referenced pink (and multi-color!) Netbooks.. Have you seen any women in FOSS growth that can be sourced to the whole Linux Netbook phenomena? Maybe due to widespread visibility and less techie styled notebooks?
[00:52] <pleia2> I know at least two of my non-techie friends are in the market for an Ubuntu mini9 because I carry my pink one with unicorn stickers around everywhere :)
[00:52] <pleia2> and no, they aren't going with pink, but they were pleased that they could come in different colors
[00:53] <pleia2> next?
 QUESTION: what sort of mentoring successes have been highlighted, and how can this outreach be extended to middle schoolers and high schoolers?
[00:54] <pleia2> one of my favorite new websites I read about in an ACM article a couple months back (the issue was focused on women in tech) is this: http://girlsgotech.org/
[00:54] <pleia2> there are a few different projects like that out there, unfortunately I'm not the best one to answer it since I'm not very involved in this area
[00:55] <pleia2> next?
 QUESTION: sometimes being nice or catering to a woman is seen as being offensive. How can us guys be encouraging without being *too* nice?
[00:55] <pleia2> good question, it's a delicate balance
[00:56] <pleia2> and it's not easy to strike, but I think the best approach is to carefully make her feel included (standing alone at a LUG because people are scared of you is no fun either)
[00:57] <pleia2> but don't stare at her and address every question and comment her way
[00:57] <pleia2> there are also some tips in the Encourage Women how-to
[00:57] <pleia2> one more question and then we have to wrap things up
 QUESTION: There are quite few of us in FOSS projects in general, and we often have lots of battles to fight. Of course battles have to be chosen carefully but even then, some burnout cannot be avoided. What can be done to prevent the burnout of the most visible women in FOSS projects?
[00:58] <pleia2> very good point, my strategy has been taking breaks
[00:58] <pleia2> whether it be from the core project, or just from the -women stuff
[00:58] <pleia2> and preferably *before* you start considering becoming an accountant :)
 QUESTION: where can i find women to volunteer to speak at LUG and LoCo events?
[00:59] <pleia2> first stop is http://www.geekspeakr.com/
[01:00] <pleia2> if you can't find someone there, look around your community - is there a woman who infrequently posts but always has interesting things to say? Invite her to speak
[01:00] <pleia2> That's all we have time for :) if anyone wants to continue discussion we can pop over to #ubuntu-women
[01:01] <hypa7ia> and encourage the women you know to post profiles to geekspeakr!
[01:01] <hypa7ia> :D
[01:01] <pleia2> thanks for coming and being such an awesome audience :D
[01:01] <james_w> thanks pleia2 and everyone
[01:01] <Bodsda> thanks pleia2
[01:01] <sebsebseb> pleia2: this was good :)
[01:02] <jegomez> Tank you, it's been a great panel
[01:02]  * hypa7ia claps
[01:03]  * Baby hugs pleia2 :)
[03:24] <dtchen> for people idling in here, in about 2 minutes, i'll be giving an SRU tutorial
[03:24] <Mike||busy> what's SRU?
[03:24] <dtchen> Mike||busy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[03:25] <dtchen> background: in #ubuntu-offtopic, MadPilot was bemoaning the state of Muine in Jaunty
[03:25] <zaidka> dtchen, is this in the timetable?
[03:25] <dtchen> the relevant bug is https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/muine/+bug/366620
[03:26] <dtchen> zaidka: no, it's impromptu
[03:26] <zaidka> then dtchen, you're awesome :)
[03:26] <dtchen> for starters, when i first took a look at the bug a few minutes ago, there was no link to the Debian bug
[03:27] <dtchen> whenever i look at Ubuntu bugs using Launchpad, if the bugs have no Debian and/or upstream bug references, i seek them out
[03:27] <dtchen> i then add them
[03:27] <dtchen> so in this instance, i looked at http://packages.qa.debian.org/muine
[03:28] <dtchen> (that's known as PTS, or Debian Package Tracking System)
[03:28] <dtchen> to add the Debian bug reference to the Ubuntu bug in Launchpad, i clicked "Also affects distribution"
[03:29] <dtchen> in the Distribution dropdown, i chose Debian
[03:29] <dtchen> note that in PTS, on the trailing vertical edge (for English speakers, the right side), there's a link to bugs
[03:30] <dtchen> in PTS, i clicked the 9 for "All bugs"
[03:31] <dtchen> i found debian #524181, read its description and status to confirm, and pasted its url into the "Also affects distribution" text entry field
[03:32] <dtchen> any questions thus far?
[03:33] <dtchen> ok, continuingi
[03:33] <zaidka> QUESTION: Why does it matter to Ubuntu what other distros a certain bug affects?
[03:33] <dtchen> the next step after linking the Debian upstream bug is to search for the GNOME upstream bug
[03:33] <genii> /topic
[03:33] <genii> oops, sorry
[03:34] <dtchen> zaidka: it matters that we have as many links to other bug trackers as possible for the same bugs, because there are only so many resources available for development
[03:34] <dtchen> zaidka: the more eyes looking at bugs, the higher the probability someone will have a resolution
[03:34] <dtchen> zaidka: often, the same bugs plague different Linux distributions
[03:35] <dtchen> zaidka: perhaps most importantly, we take advantage of web search engines: Google is often used to search for workarounds/fixes to symptoms
[03:36] <dtchen> zaidka: having many bug links is an effective way to harness more resources
[03:36] <dtchen> any other questions before i continue?
[03:37] <zaidka> should we ask here or in -chat?
[03:37] <dtchen> here is fine
[03:37] <zaidka> okay. no more questions from me :)
[03:37] <dtchen> all right, so we need to find if there's an existing GNOME bug for the symptoms
[03:38] <dtchen> i next browsed over to http://svn.gnome.org/ to discover that it has been deprecated for git :-)
[03:38] <dtchen> by the way, this just happens to be one approach; other developers/maintainers have their approaches
[03:39] <dtchen> (i read changelogs and source code commits regularly, so that's my preferred approach)
[03:40] <dtchen> so, having been redirected to git, i find the muine repository
[03:40] <dtchen> upon reading the changelogs, i see there's a commit for a very similar-looking bug
[03:40] <dtchen> 2008-11-10Fix for bgo #560077 non-working buttons on Add Song/Album windows. Patch
[03:40] <genii> Q: Does the "Affects other distributions" also somehow know/decide which upstream package it may be that is affected? Many packages have *buntu specific naming, etc and may be difficult sometimes to suss out the upstream name/originating packages
[03:41] <dtchen> genii: in my experience, one needs to set the package explicitly
[03:41] <genii> dtchen: OK, thanks
[03:42] <dtchen> so, upon clicking the link for the commit, we see the changes are applicable to the symptom described in the Ubuntu bug
[03:42] <dtchen> not only that, but we now have an upstream bug to link to!
[03:42] <dtchen> that's what i'll take care of right now
[03:44] <dtchen> there are generally a couple ways to do so
[03:44] <dtchen> you can either leave a comment with the url of the upstream bug, and/or you can choose "Also affects project"
[03:45] <dtchen> when you choose "Also affects project", you'd enter "muine" in the text entry field
[03:45] <dtchen> on the next screen, you'd fill in the url to the upstream bug (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=560077) in the "I already have..."
[03:46] <dtchen> so, now that we have a Debian bug entry and a GNOME bug entry in the Ubuntu bug report, we can get to work on fixing the bug for jaunty-proposed
[03:46] <dtchen> as i mentioned earlier, this process is outlined at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[03:47] <dtchen> i tend to get the patches and debdiffs in order first (uploaded to Launchpad) and then fill out the SRU information in the bug description
[03:47] <stefanlsd> QUESTION: Wouldnt we be checking / fixing karmic first?
[03:48] <dtchen> stefanlsd: yes, that's appropriate and a very good point
[03:49] <dtchen> in this case, we'd want to file a bug using the Debian BTS, attach a debdiff against sid's 0.8.10-3, and have it merged as appropriate into karmic
[03:50] <dtchen> again, my approach is to do all the work in parallel, so even though it seems like i'm jumping ahead, i'm actually just changing the debdiffs as appropriate :-)
[03:51] <dtchen> the patch we're interested in is http://git.gnome.org/cgit/muine/patch/?id=ed0e81a673fbe09fa18622ff437c36075d33984d
[03:51] <dtchen> it's linked at (patch) from http://git.gnome.org/cgit/muine/commit/?id=ed0e81a673fbe09fa18622ff437c36075d33984d
[03:52] <dtchen> now, for the next part, you'll need the patchutils binary package installed
[03:53] <dtchen> i saved the patch to ~, but of course one can save it anywhere one pleases
[03:54] <dtchen> wget -O ~/fix-add-dialogs.diff http://git.gnome.org/cgit/muine/patch/?id=ed0e81a673fbe09fa18622ff437c36075d33984d
[03:54] <dtchen> the next part assumes some packaging knowledge, so if you're not familiar with patching systems, please see the Ubuntu wiki for various tutorials/sessions on patch systems
[03:56] <dtchen> next, pull down the jaunty source for muine. you'll either need to manually wget each portion of the source package (yuck), or you can use pull-lp-source (from the ubuntu-dev-tools binary package), or you can use dget (in devscripts) or dgetlp (in ubuntu-dev-tools)
[03:56] <dtchen> and, of course, if you have a deb-src line for jaunty universe, you can just `apt-get source muine'
[03:57] <dtchen> now, since you're read the SRU wiki page, note that the changes need to be as uninvasive as possible
[03:57] <dtchen> upon inspecting the patch (in ~/fix-add-dialogs.diff now)
[03:58] <dtchen> i see there is a patch hunk in Changelog that i don't need to apply, since i'll be referencing it in debian/changelog anyway
[03:58] <dtchen> (a handy tool to do this is called diffstat, i.e., diffstat ~/fix-add-dialogs.diff)
[03:59] <dtchen> next, i look to see whether there is existing patching infrastructure, e.g., quilt, cdbs, etc.
[03:59] <dtchen> i can see from debian/changelog and from the lack of debian/patches/ that the source has been patched inline
[04:00] <dtchen> standard practise is not to introduce patching infrastructure if it's not already present
[04:00] <dtchen> (there are arguments pro and con, but i won't discuss them now)
[04:00] <dtchen> thus, i'm going to apply the changes directly to the source (as has been done in jaunty)
[04:01] <dtchen> so, in the extracted source directory, i'll use: filterdiff -x '*ChangeLog' ~/fix-add-dialogs.diff |patch -p1 --dry-run
[04:01] <dtchen> (next, i'd apply the patch by removing the --dry-run, since i've determined that the patch applies cleanly)
[04:02] <dtchen> now it's off to edit debian/changelog and add the appropriate SRU information
[04:03] <dtchen> the new version will be 0.8.10-1ubuntu2.1, and the distribution will be jaunty-proposed instead of jaunty
[04:05] <zaidka> QUESTION: How did you decide what version number you should give it?
[04:06] <dtchen> zaidka: i tend to follow the older -security/-proposed protocol, which just bumps the minor version
[04:06] <stefanlsd> zaidka: Have a look here- describes it well.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation#Update the packaging
[04:06] <dtchen> the correct answer, however, is that all SRUs need to have a version lower (sorted before) than the version in the current development branch
[04:08] <dtchen> knowing that the karmic version will be 0.8.10-3ubuntu1 to retain existing Ubuntu changes and incorporate Debian changes, anything lower than 0.8.10-3ubuntu1 would work
[04:08] <dtchen> (presuming there's not going to be a 0.8.10-4 to sid that rolls in all the changes)
[04:09] <dtchen> i or any other dev/maintainer am happy to discuss the versioning intricacies in #ubuntu-motu after this
[04:09] <zaidka> QUESTION: the fix will automatically go to the next version of Ubuntu? or do I have to manually submit it again?
[04:09] <dtchen> zaidka: that brings me to stefanlsd's earlier question
[04:09] <dtchen> zaidka: ideally the fix is uploaded to the next version of Ubuntu
[04:11] <dtchen> in this case, i'll work on pushing the fix to Debian sid and Ubuntu karmic simultaneously
[04:11] <dtchen> then, if all the Ubuntu changes are subsumed in the next sid packaging revision, then one can request a sync from sid
[04:12] <dtchen> so, to answer your question, because there's an existing Ubuntu delta, the fixes won't be automatically applied
[04:12] <dtchen> one needs to push to karmic and jaunty-proposed
[04:13] <dtchen> i'm not going to cover merging for karmic, because this is already growing lengthy, but someone in #ubuntu-motu will be happy to answer further questions
[04:14] <dtchen> after the changes have been made, one needs to rebuild the source package using debuild -S
[04:15] <dtchen> then, one can use pbuilder/sbuild to generate a deb, and then one can use piuparts to test it
[04:16] <dtchen> one important process bit is modifying the Ubuntu bug report for attribution, so i've assigned the bug to myself and changed the status appropriately
[04:16] <stefanlsd> QUESTION: Should we be nominating this bug for Karmic and Jaunty and attaching both debdiffs to the same bug?
[04:16] <dtchen> stefanlsd: yes
[04:17] <stefanlsd> QUESTION: What do you mean by 'for attribution'?
[04:17] <dtchen> unfortunately, since i'm no longer core-dev, i can't accept or reject release nominations
[04:17] <dtchen> stefanlsd: the connotation would be "who's working on it, or who do i blame for it?"
[04:18] <stefanlsd> dtchen: got it :)
[04:19] <dtchen> now, for sake of time, i'll just proceed as if the karmic version is going to be 0.8.10-1ubuntu3
[04:20] <dtchen> that way we'll see 0.8.10-1ubuntu3 in karmic and 0.8.10-1ubuntu2.1 in jaunty-proposed
[04:20] <dtchen> the last step is completing the template for SRU in the bug description
[04:21] <dtchen> i'm also skipping over the part where i use a vm to test the change
[04:21] <dtchen> (i have a jaunty desktop cd booted in virtualbox for that purpose)
[04:21] <dtchen> are there any further questions so far?
[04:22] <zaidka> QUESTION: when I submit the patch, does it go directly to proposed or does someone have to review it first?
[04:22] <dtchen> zaidka: it's reviewed first
[04:23] <dtchen> zaidka: both by motu-sru and by whomever accepts the upload
[04:23] <dtchen> zaidka: if you don't have upload privileges to Ubuntu universe, whoever sponsors the upload also would review it
[04:24] <zaidka> QUESTION: I'm not sure I understand, someone has to upload it for me? if so, will it still be under my name?
[04:25] <dtchen> zaidka: if your name is in the changelog, yes, it will be in your name
[04:26] <dtchen> zaidka: more specifically, if your name and e-mail address are listed for the main changelog entry, yes, the upload will appear in your name
[04:26] <dtchen> what would happen is this:
[04:26] <dtchen> one would attach the debdiffs and update the bug description
[04:27] <dtchen> then the source changes will be approved (acked) by a member of ~motu-sru
[04:27] <dtchen> then a member of ~ubuntu-universe-sponsors will (re)sign the source package and upload it
[04:28] <genii> Interesting process.
[04:29]  * zaidka just realizes there's more to software development than programming .
[04:30] <dtchen> right, the coding portion is really a small part
[04:30] <dtchen> the design and QA are *supposed* to be the most critical portions
[04:31] <dtchen> for the SRU process, we don't want people's packages breaking any worse than the release version
[04:31] <dtchen> hence the additional checks
[04:33] <dtchen> now, i've just walked through the process, but an enterprising person will note that a very similar debdiff already exists in bug 294659
[04:34] <meshuggah_> dtchen, i dont really understand this channel, are you giving a course?
[04:35] <dtchen> meshuggah_: i just gave an impromptu course on an example of the StableReleaseUpdate process, yes
[04:35] <meshuggah_> dtchen, it is nice from you and this community
[04:35] <dtchen> (people really don't use this channel often enough)
[04:35] <meshuggah_> dtchen, are you paid for it?
[04:35] <meshuggah_> no :)
[04:35] <meshuggah_> i dont think you are
[04:36] <dtchen> (correct, no)
[04:36] <meshuggah_> so we all thank you i think
[04:36] <cody-somerville> indeed we do
[04:36] <dtchen> you're welcome, but the thanks really go to the people who mentored me
[04:37] <zaidka> QUESTION: How is debdiff different from regular diff?
[04:37] <stefanlsd> hehe. thanks. it was really great. (i learnt a couple of cool things). and kept me awake at 4.30am
[04:37] <meshuggah_> stefanlsd, living in UK?
[04:37] <dtchen> zaidka: a debdiff has additional data pertaining to Debian source package-specific things
[04:38] <meshuggah_> dtchen, can i ask you question i have, about, thing you arent teaching right now?
[04:38] <dtchen> meshuggah_: sure, but i don't know if i'll be the appropriate person to answer it
[04:39] <stefanlsd> meshuggah_: south africa (same time zone)
[04:39] <dtchen> zaidka: e.g., a debdiff can be generated against two Debian/Ubuntu source packages, so the debdiff will contain hunks pertaining to debian/changelog, etc.
[04:39] <meshuggah_> dtchen, how can i make my TV-OUT of my videocard works? :)
[04:39] <dtchen> zaidka: more specifically, a debdiff is a diff, but not all diffs are debdiffs
[04:40] <meshuggah_> dtchen, everything is working great, but even after a few hours of trying i didnt found how
[04:40] <zaidka> interesting
[04:40] <dtchen> zaidka: more to the example, the ~/fix-add-dialogs.diff is a diff, but it's not a debdiff
[04:40] <meshuggah_> dtchen, evertyhing except tv-out
[04:41] <dtchen> zaidka: on the other hand, http://paste.ubuntu.com/161107/ is a debdiff
[04:41] <dtchen> meshuggah_: sorry, but i think that question is better posed in #ubuntu
[04:42] <meshuggah_> dtchen, i tried before, anyway i thank you for your time
[04:44]  * nixternal jams some meshuggah now!
[04:45] <dtchen> all right, thanks for the questions!
[04:48] <zaidka> dtchen, are we done for now?
[04:48] <meshuggah__> * dtchen<EMAIL_ADDRESS>a quitté #ubuntu-classroom
[04:48] <meshuggah__> he isnt here
[04:49] <zaidka> oh then I guess we are done
[04:49] <zaidka> :)
[06:27] <DivxcluB> Hello everybody. After Clean install on 9.04 I installed ATI drivers for my 4870x2, after reboot I can't login screen is messed up and everything is frozen right on moment of login screen. Plesee help. I have video of my boot on youtube, If possible please help here is video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFzRUkQS7_U      Thank you again
[06:36] <genii> DivxcluB: I think you want the support channel
[06:37] <genii> DivxcluB: /join #ubuntu       for instance (or xubuntu or kubuntu etc)
[06:42]  * JManGt is back (gone 06:06:32)
[07:00] <dholbach> GOOD MORNING EVERYBODY!
[07:00] <dholbach> who do we have here for the Packaging Training session? :)
[07:01] <rww> o/
[07:01] <genii> It's morning?
[07:01] <rww> genii: in crazy UTC people time, yeah. 11pm here :(
[07:01] <dholbach> genii: it is over here - 08:01 right now :-)
[07:02] <Rail> moin moin
[07:02] <dholbach> so... do we have any questions already before we kick off the session?
[07:03] <Crusher> nope
[07:03] <dholbach> alright... :-)
[07:03]  * jost86 gets Coffee...
[07:03] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted is the one page you absolutely need to bookmark :)
[07:04] <dholbach> it contains links to all important documentation
[07:04] <dholbach> like the Packaging Guide, like the Developer Videos, Ubuntu Developer process documentation, simple bugs to start working on etc
[07:05] <dholbach> ok
[07:05] <dholbach> which version of Ubuntu are you all running?
[07:05] <Crusher> jaunty
[07:05] <djails> Hardy
[07:05] <rww> Jaunty :)
[07:05] <jost86> jaunty
[07:06] <genii> 8.04.2
[07:06] <dholbach> alright :)
[07:06] <zaidka> hardy
[07:06] <slangasek> breezy
[07:06] <zaidka> kidding.. jaunty
[07:06] <maxb> jaunty with a karmic install available for dual-booting :-)
[07:06] <sebsebseb> upgraded 8.10,  to 9.04 alpha6, to beta, to  rc.  install that has some issues from alpha6, so will eventualy clean install
[07:06] <zaidka> ubuntu cambridge
[07:06] <dholbach> if you want to work on Ubuntu, you absolutely need to have the latest development release
[07:07] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases explains how to do that in a sane way :)
[07:07] <dholbach> I personally had chroots (explained on there as well) for a long time, but now I almost exclusively use kvm (used virtualbox in the past)
[07:08] <nixternal> woowoo
[07:08] <dholbach> you absolutely need to be able to test packages in the ubuntu version you're about to upload them for :-)
[07:08] <nixternal> teach me ol' great one!
[07:09] <dholbach> nixternal: come on... you've been around long enough already :)
[07:09]  * genii feeds nixternal some pie to quieten him down
[07:09] <nixternal> mmmmm
[07:09] <dholbach> for now, let's just keep using the version we're all comfortable with, but please make a note to set up a VM at some stage :-)
[07:09] <dholbach> please run:
[07:09] <dholbach>   sudo apt-get install ubuntu-dev-tools devscripts build-essential gnupg
[07:10] <dholbach> it will install a bunch of packages for you we're going to need for the session
[07:10] <nixternal> isn't gnupg installed by default already?
[07:10] <dholbach> maybe nixternal can exaplain what they're there for
[07:10] <dholbach> nixternal: just making sure :)
[07:10] <nixternal> k, confused me for a sec
[07:10] <raylu> if we're packaging for the current release, we won't need the latest dev release, right?
[07:10] <zaidka> what! none of them is installed by default
[07:10] <genii> I have to beg out, I'll be /away but checking the backscroll later
[07:10] <dholbach> raylu: for now we'll just play around with the tools, set things up and so on
[07:11] <nixternal> raylu: correct, though you never know when you will want to start developing for the next release
[07:11] <dholbach> raylu: if you want to upload packages for karmic, you need to have them built and tested on karmic :)
[07:11] <dholbach> raylu: I hope that makes sense
[07:11]  * nixternal notes to fix it in the dev cycle and backport/sru as needed to the current stable release
[07:11]  * ara remembers that if there is someone that prefer to make questions in Spanish, they can be posted at #ubuntu-classroom-chat-es
[07:11] <nixternal> thanks ara!
[07:12] <raylu> dholbach: right; just that you said we "absolutely" need the latest dev release
[07:12]  * nixternal goes back to watching and hushes up
[07:12] <dholbach> raylu: right, "absolutely" for testing :-)
[07:12] <dholbach> and "in some form" :)
[07:12] <dholbach> ok
[07:12] <dholbach> so this is what the packages are for:
[07:12] <rww> "Please select the mail server configuration type that best meets your needs." =/
[07:13] <dholbach> rww: you can purge mailx and the mailserver afterwards - sorry
[07:13] <dholbach> or use --no-install-recommends
[07:13] <dholbach> (in the apt-get call)
[07:13] <nixternal> rww: just do the top selection, no configuration for now
[07:13] <dholbach>  - gnupg (installed by default as nixternal said) can sign and encrypt files (we use it to sign source packages)
[07:14] <dholbach>  - build-essential: will install the bare minimum to be able to compile (very simple packages): the compiler, make, etc.
[07:15] <dholbach>  - devscripts: a bunch of tools that make Debian packaging much easier (especially repetitive tasks)
[07:15] <dholbach>  - ubuntu-dev-tools: much like devscripts, but more closely tied to Ubuntu
[07:15] <dholbach> any questions so far?
[07:15] <jost86> nope
[07:16] <teknico> I got here late
[07:16] <slangasek> using --no-install-recommends (or setting it in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/) is highly advisable for a development chroot, not just because it saves download/configuration time, but because that's a more accurate model of how the buildds work
[07:16] <teknico> are there logs anywhere?
[07:16] <dholbach> teknico: sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends ubuntu-dev-tools devscripts build-essential gnupg    (is where we are right now)
[07:17] <dholbach> plus a bunch of links that will be available on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training later on
[07:17] <teknico> thx
[07:17] <dholbach> ok, please edit   ~/.pbuilderrc    in your favourite editor and add the following
[07:17] <dholbach> COMPONENTS="main universe multiverse restricted"
[07:17] <dholbach> and then save the file
[07:17] <rww> teknico: http://paste.ubuntu.com/161169/
[07:18] <dholbach> we often use a tool called pbuilder which will build source packages in a minimal environment for us (sets up that environment, installs the build-depends packages, builds the package, etc in an automated fashion)
[07:19] <dholbach> for now just run
[07:19] <dholbach>    pbuilder-dist create <your Ubuntu version>         (hardy, jaunty, karmic, whatever)
[07:19] <dholbach> it will set up the initial pbuilder
[07:19] <dholbach> the nice thing about pbuilder-dist is, that you can set up different build environments for karmic, jaunty, intrepid, hardy, etc etc :)
[07:20] <dholbach> (also Debian versions)
[07:20] <dholbach> so that's pretty neatr
[07:20] <dholbach> neat
[07:20] <Crusher> dholbach: if you already have a pbuilder environment setup, will this overwrite it?
[07:20] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto has more info about that tool
[07:20] <dholbach> Crusher: did you use pbuilder-dist?
[07:20] <rww> dholbach: are "create" and "<your ubuntu version>" switched around? I'm getting an error
[07:20] <Crusher> dholbach: no
[07:20] <dholbach> rww: they are :-)
[07:20] <dholbach>    pbuilder-dist <your Ubuntu version> create        (hardy, jaunty, karmic, whatever)
[07:20] <dholbach> thanks a lot rww
[07:21]  * dholbach didn't sleep very well last night *yawn*
[07:21] <dholbach> Crusher: in that case it shouldn't, but you can safely skip the step as well
[07:21] <dholbach> ok... while that's running, let's set up a GPG key
[07:21] <dholbach> who of you does not have a GPG key set up yet?
[07:22] <jost86> i might have one... but I dont remember it
[07:22] <dholbach> awesome, looks like we can skip a step :)
[07:22] <jost86> well go ahead
[07:22] <dholbach> jost86: what does     ls ~/.gnupg/pubring.gpg     say?
[07:22] <dholbach> do you have that file?
[07:23] <jost86> yep, present
[07:23] <dholbach> super
[07:23] <dholbach> basically I would have run you through the steps of:
[07:23] <dholbach>   gpg --gen-key
[07:24] <dholbach>   gpg --send-keys <key>
[07:24] <dholbach> and putting it up on Launchpad
[07:24] <raylu> i'd "gpg -K" to make sure you actually have a key
[07:24] <dholbach> raylu: good one - great
[07:24] <jost86> k, i think i'll figure that out :) thx
[07:25] <dholbach> if you didn't put up your GPG key on Launchpad, you can do it here:   https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editpgpkeys
[07:26] <dholbach> in the beginning you won't need the GPG key very often, as you're not directly allowed to upload packages to Ubuntu yet
[07:26] <dholbach> but I'll get back to the "upload packages part" in a bit
[07:26] <dholbach> if you use bash (default shell), please add something like this to your ~/.bashrc
[07:26] <dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
[07:26] <dholbach> export<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[07:27] <dholbach> these are variables that are used by the tools in devscripts and it'll save you typing your name over and over again :)
[07:27] <dholbach> (editing changelog entries is one of the very common use-cases)
[07:28] <dholbach> another thing you need to make sure when you're working on Ubuntu packages is that you have source package repositories enabled in apt
[07:28] <dholbach> so you need something like this in your /etc/apt/sources.list
[07:28] <dholbach> deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ jaunty restricted main multiverse universe
[07:28] <dholbach> (of course replace jaunty with karmic or hardy or whatever you're using)
[07:29] <dholbach> you can also use the System -> Administration -> Software Sources tool
[07:29] <dholbach> (or whatever it's called in English, sorry :-))
[07:29] <dholbach> once you've configured that, you can simply run
[07:30] <dholbach>    sudo apt-get update
[07:30] <dholbach>    apt-get source hello
[07:30] <dholbach> and it will download you the current source code for that package from the archive
[07:30] <dholbach> any questions up until now?
[07:31] <dholbach> so let's run
[07:31] <dholbach>   apt-get source hello
[07:31] <dholbach> it's a very very boring package, but we'll download it anyway now
[07:31] <dholbach> apt is going to download the following files:
[07:31] <dholbach>  hello_2.2-3.diff.gz
[07:32] <dholbach>  hello_2.2-3.dsc
[07:32] <dholbach>  hello_2.2.orig.tar.gz
[07:32] <dholbach> (might be other versions on your system)
[07:32] <dholbach> let's go through them one by one
[07:33] <dholbach> the .orig.tar.gz file is the original pristine untouched tarball that was downloaded from the website of the software authors
[07:33] <dholbach> in this case it's from something like ftp.gnu.org
[07:33] <dholbach> it's important that we don't change it (only very rare cases where it's justified), but merely rename it to something like
[07:33] <dholbach>    <software project>_<version>.orig.tar.gz
[07:34] <dholbach> the .diff.gz file contains the compressed set of changes we need to apply to make the package build the Ubuntu or Debian way
[07:34] <dholbach> that's "the packaging"
[07:35] <dholbach> basically we add a directory called  ./debian/  to the source which further describes the package, the history of the packaging, the copyright and so on
[07:36] <dholbach> when I said "make it build the Ubuntu/Debian way", I meant that we wrap a build process around the existing build system that the upstream package offers
[07:36] <dholbach> in the standard case of a C+autotools project that would be something like   ./configure; make; sudo make install
[07:36] <dholbach> in a python+setuptools case that would be    python setup.py install   (or something like that)
[07:37] <dholbach> the reason for that is: we want just one way to build packages :-)
[07:37] <dholbach> the .dsc file contains just some bits of metadata, like the md5sum of the files, etc.
[07:37] <dholbach> are there any questions up until now?
[07:38] <Crusher> dholbach: under what circumstances do we make native packages?
[07:38] <dholbach> Crusher: good question
[07:38] <rww> dholbach: I have a directory hello-2.2 with a bunch of files in it too, that you didn't mention...
[07:38] <dholbach> rww: will get to that in a sec
[07:38] <dholbach> it seems that Crusher has read a few chapters of the packaging guide already :-)
[07:38] <rww> dholbach: oh, okay. Just checking I didn't do something wrong :)
[07:39] <Crusher> ;)
[07:39] <dholbach> rww: no, you're doing great :-)
[07:39] <raylu> after you answer that... what if their source relies on a directory called "debian" already?
[07:39] <dholbach> so in the case of a native package, you just have a    <project>_<version>.tar.gz    and a    <project>_<version>.dsc     file
[07:40] <dholbach> which means all Packaging changes are in the .tar.gz file too
[07:40] <dholbach> so you can't easily tell apart which change was done by the packager and which came from upstream
[07:41] <dholbach> also it means that for every small packaging change (update the package description for example) you need to upload the whole tarball (might be several MB)
[07:42] <dholbach> in the other case you just upload the .diff.gz and the .dsc (ie: 1.2-1: upload the .tar.gz, 1.2-2: just upload the .diff.gz)
[07:42] <dholbach> ok, so why do we use that option?
[07:43] <dholbach> in some cases we are upstream of the package (and don't do regular .tar.gz releases) and keep everything in svn or bzr or git or whatever
[07:43] <dholbach> in that case, especially if it's a small package, we just dump everything in that .tar.gz file and make it a native package
[07:44] <dholbach> Crusher: did that make sense?
[07:44] <Crusher> dholbach: yes
[07:44] <dholbach> raylu: some upstream maintainers decide to ship their own Debian packaging, so there's a debian/ directory already
[07:45] <dholbach> that's one of the rare cases where we repackage the tarball and rip out the existing packaging
[07:45] <dholbach> it makes reading the .diff.gz much easier
[07:45] <nixternal> what about asking upstream to release a prestine tarball without a debian directory?
[07:45] <dholbach> nixternal: very good point, it makes a lot of sense to do that
[07:45] <dholbach> but in the meantime that's probably what you do
[07:46] <dholbach> alright... cracking on and getting to rww's question
[07:46] <dholbach> what about the hello-2.2 directory
[07:46] <dholbach> "apt-get source" (actually it's dpkg-source -x) is a clever tool - what it did for us was
[07:46] <dholbach>  - extract the tarball
[07:47] <dholbach>  - use the .diff.gz and patch the code with our packaging changes
[07:47] <dholbach> (and check the md5sums along the way)
[07:47] <dholbach> so if you check out the hello-2.2 directory, you'll see that there's a debian/ directory already
[07:47] <dholbach> now let's test-build the package
[07:47] <dholbach> please run
[07:47] <dholbach>    pbuilder-dist <your release> build hello_*.dsc
[07:48] <dholbach> this might take some time
[07:48] <dholbach> and I hope you all get addicted of watching build messages fly by and get involved with Ubuntu development :-)
[07:49] <raylu> if i wanted that, i'd be using gentoo
[07:49] <dholbach> haha :)
[07:49] <dholbach>   ~/pbuilder/*_result/   should now contain the resulting .deb file
[07:50] <dholbach> raylu: right but in our case, you do one fix and 10 million other users benefit from it
[07:51] <dholbach> if you check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes you'll find a bunch of examples of what you can do with the packaging tools and perform simpler tasks like "upgrade package to a new upstream", "make a small change", etc.
[07:51] <dholbach> once you created a small patch, you can use the Sponsorship Process to get it included in Ubuntu
[07:51] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess has all the gory details
[07:51] <dholbach> so what's that for?
[07:52] <dholbach> you're only allowed to upload Ubuntu source packages directly when you're part of the development team
[07:52] <dholbach> until then you need to get your patches reviewed and then uploaded by somebody else
[07:53] <dholbach> so what you do is: attach the patch to a bug report on Launchpad (or link to the source package you uploaded somewhere)
[07:53] <imbrandon> its not as scary as it sounds
[07:53] <dholbach> then subscribe the sponsors team
[07:53] <dholbach> and they'll review the patch, give you feedback, etc.
[07:53] <dholbach> then apply the patch to the source package, sign it with their GPG key and upload it for you
[07:53] <dholbach> imbrandon: exactly
[07:53] <dholbach> the sponsors team is a really friendly bunch and you'll learn a lot that way
[07:54] <dholbach> once you've been through that process a couple of times, people will tell you that you should join the team, and then it's time to send in a short "application"
[07:54] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers has more details about that
[07:54] <dholbach> did that scare you? :-)
[07:54] <dholbach> do you have any questions about the process?
[07:55]  * jost86 dreams of being rich and famous ;)
[07:55] <teknico> o/
[07:55] <teknico> the pbuilder command built a .deb package
[07:55] <dholbach> teknico: so you're scared? or do you have a question? :)
[07:55] <dholbach> teknico: yep
[07:55] <teknico> the dsc file is no more signed, though
[07:56] <teknico> how come?
[07:56] <rww> dholbach: "patch" in the above means debdiffs we create with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/Debdiff , right?
[07:57] <dholbach> teknico: I usually don't use the .dsc files from *result/, but I guess it's to make sure you don't upload them accidentally
[07:57] <imbrandon> teknico:  correct you'll have to source build and resign after pbuilder if testing goes ok
[07:57] <dholbach> teknico: dput will refuse to upload them for you (unless you force it to)
[07:57] <imbrandon> rww: correct
[07:57] <dholbach> rww: a general patch should be fine, but a debdiff (with a nice changelog entry) will speed things up
[07:58] <dholbach> that's one of the most important points: always document your work properly
[07:58] <dholbach> next week we're going to have a session about PPAs, so Dustin Kirkland will talk a bit about how to upload packages to Launchpad
[07:59] <dholbach> that should be interesting and tie in quite well with this session
[07:59] <dholbach> any more questions? :)
[07:59] <djails> can you point me to docs on how to package shared libs ?
[07:59] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted should contain all the links I mentioned earlier
[07:59] <dholbach> djails: hang on
[08:00] <dholbach> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-sharedlibs.html is the debian policy section for it
[08:00] <dholbach> and we had a session about that already, let me find it
[08:00] <djails> thanks
[08:00] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/LibraryPackaging
[08:01] <djails> awesome !
[08:01] <dholbach> it's been a while since that session, but most things should not have changed
[08:01] <dholbach> also I'd recommend checking out a few very simple other library packages
[08:01] <dholbach> libsexy for example
[08:01] <dholbach> any other questions?
[08:02] <sbeattie> dholbach: is there anything specific about packaging perl packages?
[08:02] <dholbach> ok cool - feel free to join #ubuntu-motu and ask all questions there - the people in there are really friendly and will help you out for sure
[08:03] <dholbach> sbeattie: I'm sure there is, I just did one in the past and used perlmodule.mk (part of CDBS) and made sure I used ${perl:Depends} somewhere
[08:03] <dholbach> sbeattie: that's all I know
[08:04] <sbeattie> dholbach: okay, thanks.
[08:05] <dholbach> ok... thanks a lot everybody - it's been a great session!
[08:05]  * Rail is going to request sponsorship for some packages :)
[08:05] <dholbach> I had a lot of fun and hope to see you guys around more often from now on!
[08:05] <dholbach> Rail: awesome!
[08:05] <djails> dholbach: thanks, i ll try the REVU process for my pkg
[08:05] <Rail> dholbach: thank you very much
[08:05] <dholbach> djails: perfect
[08:06] <rww> dholbach: Are the various videos on the ubuntudevelopers youtube account still up-to-date (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKLabbXTqMc ), or have there been any changes in the last year or so to watch out for?
[08:06] <dholbach> have a great day everybody and hope to see you at the next sessions too :)
[08:06] <dholbach> rww: there should be only small changes like change "hardy" to "jaunty" or something
[08:06] <dholbach> rww: in principle it should be all the same still
[08:07] <rww> dholbach: excellent, thanks :)
[08:07] <dholbach> rock on everybody! :-)
[08:07] <Crusher> thanks for the session dholbach, you have a great day aswell.
[08:07] <jost86> thx
[08:10]  * thekorn hugs dholbach, great session
[08:10] <dholbach> gracias thekorn
[08:11] <dme> dholbach: Very useful, thanks.
[09:22] <mandybuntu> hello
[14:13] <melat0nin> is this the place for the sabdfl chat at 3?
[14:15] <melat0nin> hm, i'm two days late
[14:15] <melat0nin> :(
[14:15] <kenvandine_wk> melat0nin: there are logs :)
[14:15] <kenvandine_wk> http://is.gd/5dFB
[14:16] <melat0nin> kenvandine_wk: yeah got 'em, thankyou :) had a Fridge item in my RSS feed for about ten days now saying the chat was on the 30th, didn't think to check ><
[14:16] <kenvandine_wk> melat0nin: oh... yeah i think it was originally proposed for today
[14:17] <melat0nin> oh well, the logs make interesting reading anyway :)
[14:20] <jcastro> wooo, 1 hour, 40 minutes until Open Week begins again!
[14:22] <mmaret> jcastro: what's the subject of the next one?  With a Little Help sounds a bit like mistery :)
[14:23] <mmaret> and the description on the wiki is empty
[14:24] <jcastro> basically, how to find and get help
[14:25] <mmaret> ok thx ;)
[15:26] <jcastro> 35 minutes!
[15:26] <imbrandon> :)
[15:26] <jcastro> imbrandon: looking for me earlier?
[15:26] <imbrandon> jcastro: yes, but i got to run for a few, can i hit you up before your day ends for like 15 min ?
[15:26] <jcastro> yeah
[15:26] <imbrandon> here or IM either one :)
[15:26] <jcastro> I am relocating to a hotel for penguicon at some point today but I'll be around
[15:26] <imbrandon> kk
[15:27] <imbrandon> i'll only be gone like an hour
[15:27] <imbrandon> or so
[15:27] <jcastro> no worries
[15:37] <billybigrigger> penguicon? might have to google that one...
[15:37] <billybigrigger> where's that?
[15:46] <jcastro> detroit
[15:46] <jcastro> 15 minute warning!
[15:46] <jcastro> effie_jayx: 15 minutes!
[15:47] <effie_jayx> jcastro, cool ;)
[15:55] <jcastro> 5 minute warning
[15:55] <jcastro> thanks everyone for showing up today!
[15:56] <jcastro> the schedule is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[15:56] <jcastro> as always, please keep this channel clear during the sessions
[15:56] <jcastro> and put your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:56] <jcastro> we're on day 4 of openweek!
[15:57] <jcastro> if you have feedback, good, bad, or otherwise, please send me a note to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[15:57] <jcastro> so that we can make Open Week better!
[16:00] <effie_jayx> jcastro, ready?
[16:01] <jcastro> yep
[16:01] <jcastro> take it away sir!
[16:01] <effie_jayx> ok
[16:01] <effie_jayx> Hello, My name is Efrain Valles from Maracaibo, Venezuela. I am a member of the LoCo (Local Community) Council and the Ubuntu Membership Board of the Americas. I am also an _on and off_ basic packaging contributor and I love lurking for tricks and stuff to do on Ubuntu.
[16:01] <effie_jayx> Welcome to "With a little help", This talk is intended for new ubuntu users that have joined the ubuntu world but would like to know how to find. I'll be sharing with you quite a few links so please have your bookmark ready in your favorite web browser.
[16:01] <effie_jayx> Also keep an eye for important _HINTS_ I will be giving you during the talk.
[16:02] <effie_jayx> As you may already know, all questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, all you need to do is prefix your question with "QUESTION:", example: "QUESTION: Where is Maracaibo?" and it magically appears here.
[16:02] <effie_jayx> Let's get started.
[16:03] <effie_jayx> This is the Agenda for "With a little help":
[16:03] <effie_jayx> * Get to know your UBUNTU.
[16:03] <effie_jayx> * Command line and UI.
[16:03] <effie_jayx> * Meet the community help resourses.
[16:03] <effie_jayx> * Considerations when using community support.
[16:03] <effie_jayx> * The internet wilderness.
[16:03] <effie_jayx> * Enter Commercial support.
[16:03] <effie_jayx> * Help others.
[16:03] <effie_jayx> First of all, welcome to Ubuntu as well. It is a Free and Open Source software sponsored by Canonical LTD. and it is the result of a great effort of a global community of developers and a conglomerate of projects in the free and open source world. make sure you check https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions
[16:04] <effie_jayx> * Get to know your new OS
[16:04] <effie_jayx> Getting to know your new os is very important, this helps you feel confortable on the strenghs of (K)(X)ubuntu. You probably feel at home with your old os, but this is because you took the time to know the whereabouts.
[16:05] <effie_jayx> Ask these questions to yourself:
[16:05] <effie_jayx> * What version of Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu are you using?
[16:05] <effie_jayx> * What desktop environment are you using?
[16:05] <effie_jayx> * What are the names of the applications you are using?
[16:05] <effie_jayx> All of these will provide to be good keywords for narrowing down searches and sorting through topics easily. make sure you check https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/windows/C/glossary.html and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Glossary
[16:06] <effie_jayx> Desktop Environments and Command Line Interface.
[16:06] <effie_jayx> You need to be able to find yourself in the graphical interface you are using so I suggest you check, the basic GNOME introduction. https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/newtoubuntu/C/index.html/overview.html which will lead you to documentation on how to get stuff done on your new system. If your  use Kubuntu  you can try the KDE docuemntation http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdebase-runtime/userguide/index.html. For Xubuntu users you c
[16:06] <effie_jayx> an check out http://www.xfce.org/documentation/4.2/.
[16:07] <effie_jayx> Some applications may be different from one another in Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu so it is helpfull to remember the names for when you are doing a search on that particular application. Example if you want to fix and issue with your instant messenger in Kubuntu. "My account won't login using Kopete".
[16:07] <effie_jayx> Once you get acquainted to the interface I am sure you will feel right at home. :D
[16:07] <effie_jayx> One thing that many users are intrigued by is the Linux Command line. It is perhaps one of the most useful tools in every linux environment. Learning how to use it is really simple and to receive help I sugest that you learn to do basic tasks with it. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsingTheTerminal is a great place to start.
[16:08] <effie_jayx> And you might think I am imposing command line, but the truth is there are different Desktop Environments and the command line stays the same for most of them. Installing and application in a different Kubuntu may be different in steps if you compare it to Xubuntu. so installing from a command line will guarantee you get it done faster.
[16:09] <effie_jayx> Plus most of the help on the INTERNET at some point orients you to some command line usage. so it is always good to know the basics.
[16:09] <effie_jayx> _HINT_: always check the command you are using to get something done. if you intend to use "sudo apt-get install foo" then it is useful to check that apt-get is a command that actually does what you want it to do. You can check this using man.
[16:10] <effie_jayx> man apt-get
[16:10] <effie_jayx> With all of that under our belt. then we are ready to actually get some help :D.
[16:11] <effie_jayx> I do not see any questions up to this point so I will continue and check back with your questions later.
[16:11] <effie_jayx> Meet the community help resources:
[16:11] <effie_jayx> The community offers services that are oriented for different kinds of people. and they all encourage you to come and ask but also to consider that your questions or issues may have been already answered or solved.
[16:11] <effie_jayx> The Ubuntu Community offers:
[16:11] <effie_jayx> * Official Documentation: https://help.ubuntu.com/
[16:11] <effie_jayx> * Excellent Community Documentation: https://help.ubuntu.com/community and https://wiki.ubuntu.com
[16:11] <effie_jayx> * Web forums: http://www.ubuntuforums.org
[16:11] <effie_jayx> * Mailing lists: lists.ubuntu.com
[16:11] <effie_jayx> * LoCo (Local Community) Teams can help.
[16:11] <effie_jayx> * Live Chat (IRC): #ubuntu, #kubuntu and #xubuntu channels in the freenode server.
[16:11] <effie_jayx> * Answers through Launchpad: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[16:12] <effie_jayx> and much more
[16:12] <effie_jayx> The Official Docuemntation: The Official Documentation is made available by the the Ubuntu Documentation Project, and it covers _supported_ versions of Ubuntu. It offers help from very basic tasks to advanced topics like installing server applications and such. https://help.ubuntu.com/
[16:13] <effie_jayx> The Community documentation available https://help.ubuntu.com/community is written by people like you, though who about sharing what they had learned. you can also contribute by registering and login into the site.
[16:14] <effie_jayx> The Ubuntu Forums, these are perhaps one of the key elements in the community support scheme. Its interactiveness and the great feeling of people that _live_ in this place is just fantastic. very organized and helpful people. I trongly suggest the basic Absolute Beginner Talk at http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=326 also check the Ubuntu Forums FAQ http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?f=48
[16:15] <effie_jayx> _HINT_: please make sure you read and abide by the Forum Code of Conduct in the forums as it helps keeping it a great place. http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy.
[16:16] <effie_jayx> Community support Mailing lists hosted in https://lists.ubuntu.com/#Community+Support are a great place if you are good at emails. there are several mailing lists available and searching the archives can be a very useful to and you avoid double posting. Subscribing to some of them is actually very good if you would like to find out what other people may be experiencing.
[16:16] <effie_jayx> _HINT_: Do not ask for Ubuntu CD's in the Launchpad Mailing lists use ship it shipit.ubuntu.com ;)
[16:17] <effie_jayx> LoCo Communities can help:
[16:17] <effie_jayx> LoCo Teams are a great group of people in almost every country in the world and they can certainly help you. they are close to you and they might be running event check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList and see if they offer support.
[16:19] <effie_jayx> You can read more about LoCo teams at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams
[16:19] <effie_jayx> Live Chat on IRC:
[16:19] <effie_jayx> Ubuntu help is always at hand with live chat. people from all over the world gather in support channels to help you solve your issues. The language used is English as it is considered a universal language but you can check a language specific channel or your LoCo team IRC channel and ask questions in your language. Check the list of channels at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
[16:20] <effie_jayx> _HINT_: make sure you follow the CoC guidelines when using IRC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct/.
[16:20] <effie_jayx> and do not feed the trolls :)
[16:20] <effie_jayx> Ubuntu being hosted at Launchpad.net offers Answers. this is a service that aims to make getting help simple. you ask your question and people answer. Pretty straight-forward. you can check it out at https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu.
[16:21] <effie_jayx> I'll take the one question we have got on Answers
 QUESTION: What is the difference between the forums and LP answers?
[16:22] <effie_jayx> well, Answers is a service of launchpad and its aim is to be straight and simple you as another answers
[16:23] <effie_jayx> the main difference with the forums being you do not need to cataloge you question before you ask and the content is strictly limited to questions
[16:24] <effie_jayx> where in forums you might have tutorials and more. the idea being Ansers is much more direct.
[16:24] <effie_jayx> ziroday, does that answer your question?
[16:24] <ziroday> effie_jayx: yep, thanks!
[16:25] <effie_jayx> Now that we know the community resources let's consider a few things
[16:25] <effie_jayx> * Considerations when using community support:
[16:25] <effie_jayx> - The work is done by volunteers so be patient and wait for your turn ;). Usually there is a great number of people volunteering so there shouldn't be a problem with getting help but if you ask on a Sunday at 04:00 it might make it a bit tough to get help.
[16:25] <Omarman> I'm on a laptop with Nvidia 8600 graphics (DELL XPS 1530), Jaunty install. Is there a way to activate external monitor on separate x screen without having to restart X?
[16:25] <sebsebseb> Omarman: wrong channel ask in #ubuntu :)
[16:25] <effie_jayx> hello Omarman  you might want to try that in  #ubuntu ;)
[16:26] <jcastro> hey, a live example!
[16:26] <Omarman> Thank you guys
[16:26] <effie_jayx> most definetelly :D
[16:26] <effie_jayx> - Demonstrate that you are trying to solve your problem.  You are also letting whoever is helping you that you are trying hard ;)
[16:27] <effie_jayx> and if they know you are trying hard ... they will try even harder to help you
[16:27] <effie_jayx> - Follow the Ubuntu Code of Conduct at all times and always be polite when asking and follow specific guidelines for each service.  Aslo don't ask to ask ... just ASK
[16:29] <effie_jayx> - Make sure you add the words Ubuntu Kubuntu or Xubuntu to every search to narrow down results
[16:31] <effie_jayx> - If results are only available for other linux distros then check if those are specific to that distro or if they work with your ubuntu system.
[16:31] <effie_jayx> - It is not advised to add third party repositories to install applications that are not in the ubuntu repositories unless you feel confident the packages in that repository are safe. If you are in doubt then DON'T.
[16:31] <effie_jayx> and good call to sebsebseb
[16:32] <effie_jayx> Enter Commercial Support:
[16:32] <effie_jayx> If you need to be covered with a dedicated support line then you must get support from canonical https://shop.canonical.com/. they will give you that World Class support you expect from a software vendor. and since Ubuntu is free and Open Source. the money they ask for suport seems like a good investment :D. there is support for 5/9 (office hours) and 24/7 for an around the clock support availability.
[16:33] <sebsebseb> effie_jayx: for  reminding you that some software sources can possibily be bad
[16:33] <effie_jayx> most definetely
[16:34] <effie_jayx> Consider commercial support if you are not much of  power user
[16:35] <effie_jayx> the reson for this is simple. You want your system to work and since ubuntu is FOSS then it is wise to spend the bucks you were paying in third party apps like anti virus and office suites.
[16:36] <effie_jayx> Spend it on support. and you can call if anything goes wrong
[16:36] <LHC> CLASS IS IN SESSION
[16:36] <LHC> ubuntu > all according to this bible
[16:37] <effie_jayx> Help others:
[16:37] <effie_jayx> Ubuntu is all about helping one another. So help others and Share UBUNTU TODAY.
[16:37] <effie_jayx> that's it for my talk I will take questions from now untill my time is up. which is a bit more thant 20 minutes
QUESTION: Can I purchase on-site support from Canonical?
[16:38] <effie_jayx> I am not sure, maybe jcastro can help us with that
[16:39] <effie_jayx> There is no world wide onsite support, for sure
[16:39] <effie_jayx> but I do not know if there is any in Uk, the US or Canada
[16:40] <jcastro> I am not sure
[16:41] <effie_jayx> QUESTION:  If I'm not comfortable using the command line, is add/remove or synaptic package manager better and how do I know which one to use when?
[16:41] <effie_jayx> well add/remove makes finding and installing packages very simple and intuitive
[16:42] <effie_jayx> synaptics is very powerfull but it includes libraries and onder packages. it includes installing packages by tasks
[16:43] <effie_jayx> if you do not feel confortable installing through a command line, ofcouse you can use add/remove. However this feature may be different in Kubuntu
 does that cover it?
[16:45] <akgraner> effie_jayx, yep!  :)
[16:46] <effie_jayx> sebsebseb is also pointing out that Adept is by default in Kubuntu
[16:48] <effie_jayx> also a very interesting point is that commands like apt-get is deprecated , and aptitude is the replacement
[16:48] <effie_jayx> sebsebseb, anything else we can add to that ?
[16:48] <sebsebseb> effie_jayx: no apt-get is deprecated in Debian, but not in Ubuntu
[16:48] <effie_jayx> ahh right. sorry ;)
[16:48] <sebsebseb> Ubuntu is based on Debian for those that didn't know,  with Debian being one of the first Linux distributions
[16:49] <effie_jayx> well "With a little help" of sebsebseb we sorted that :P
[16:50] <k-milogars> good
[16:50] <sebsebseb> aptitude is  better at dealing with dependancies than apt-get,  so  it's usually better to install big stuff such as  xubuntu-desktop, or kubuntu-desktop,  if running Ubuntu,  with sudo aptitude install   rather than apt-get install
[16:51] <effie_jayx> we got more comments just before we wrapp up
[16:51] <effie_jayx> Adept is not the default package manager in Kubuntu from jaunty on. it's replaced by kpackagekit
[16:51] <effie_jayx> thanks james_w :D
[16:52] <effie_jayx> akgraner, but it does prove the point that things do change in the desktop environment and command line comes in handy
[16:53] <sebsebseb> [16:51] <james_w> sebsebseb: apt-get isn't deprecated in Debian, and it now has the same handling of meta-packages as aptitude, so that doesn't matter so much anymore
 Question: There is very sparse information about Ubuntu a11y features apart from those from upstream Gnome. Also the Ubuntu installer selection of a accessible install is very difficult for the blind user. Is there any plans to rectify this
[16:54] <effie_jayx> I believe I can forward this question to the Documentation Team
[16:54] <jcastro> 5 minute warning!
[16:54] <effie_jayx> they held great sessions on tuesday on Docs Day
[16:55] <effie_jayx> and I believe you can help too :D
[16:55] <effie_jayx> ^arky^, does that cover your question?
[16:56] <^arky^> Yes, I think so. But it would be great if you can forward this question
[16:56] <effie_jayx> ^arky^,I will
[16:57] <effie_jayx> well thank you all for coming by to learn a bit about how you can get some help. Special thanks to sebsebseb  and james_w  and all of you at #ubuntu-classroom-chat for such delightful talk
[16:57] <effie_jayx> jcastro, thanks
[16:57] <james_w> thanks effie_jayx, nice talk
[16:57] <jcastro> thanks effie_jayx!
[16:57] <^arky^> thanks effie_jayx
[16:57] <sebsebseb> effie_jayx: thanks, it was good
[16:58] <adiroiban> effie_jayx: thanks!
[16:58] <akgraner> effie_jayx, Thanks!
[16:58] <jcastro> adiroiban: ok, quick break for everyone then you can begin!
[16:58] <adiroiban> sure
[16:58] <ziroday> thanks effie_jayx!
[16:59] <charlie-tca> Thanks, effie_jayx
[17:02] <adiroiban> Hi, My name is Adi Roiban, and I am here as a member of Ubuntu Translation Community.
[17:02] <adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdiRoiban
[17:02] <adiroiban> Durring this session I will try to touch some aspect about running an Ubuntu localization team and assuring translations quality
[17:03] <adiroiban> David Planella (dpm) is also here, on behalf of Canonical.
[17:03] <adiroiban> Beside this session, feel free to contact me or David for any question related to Ubuntu Translation Process.
[17:03] <adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/Contact
[17:03] <adiroiban> We will start with a short presentation, followed by a question and answer session.
[17:04] <adiroiban> Don't forget that tomorrow, at the same hour, David will run an OpenWeek session entitled "Demythifying Launchpad Translations".
[17:04] <adiroiban> First off all I will do a short introduction to Ubuntu Translation process, similar with the one done during "Translating Ubuntu Docs" session.
[17:04] <adiroiban> Ubuntu localization process is based on Launchpad Translation web tool.
[17:04] <adiroiban> You can learn how to use Launchpad Translations by reading the Launchpad help pages: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations
[17:05] <adiroiban> You can start translating Ubuntu right away, by following this page:
[17:05] <adiroiban> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/
[17:05] <adiroiban> Everyone is free to help translating Ubuntu  into his/her language.
[17:05] <adiroiban> When I said that everyone is free to help translating Ubuntu into his/her language, I mean that everyone can add suggestion / possible translations for an original text
[17:05] <adiroiban> In Ubuntu, we have Ubuntu Localization teams, and they act as Translation Quality Assurance Team. They will review and approve suggestions.
[17:06] <adiroiban> If you are an active translator and you are doing a great translation job you can request to join the Ubuntu Localization team appointed for your language
[17:06] <adiroiban> Here you can find the team appointed for your language:
[17:06] <adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
[17:06] <adiroiban> For any questions related to the translations of Ubuntu docs into your language, please contact the team appointed to your language.
[17:07] <adiroiban> There is a wiki page dedicated to Translating Ubuntu https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu
[17:07] <adiroiban> If you are translating Ubuntu from time to time, or you are a member of an Ubuntu Translation/Localization team, you will find the above wikipage useful
[17:07] <adiroiban> Roughly we can consider that we can have 2 types of Ubuntu localization teams.
[17:08] <adiroiban> 1. Emerging teams
[17:08] <adiroiban> 2. Well established teams
[17:09] <adiroiban> During this session, I will focus on the emerging teams, but member of well established teams are invited to add suggestions and share best practices
[17:09] <adiroiban> Like I said in the beginning, Ubuntu Translations teams act as quality assurance teams for localization. In the same time they are responsible for translating Ubuntu specific packages
[17:09] <adiroiban> Here is a list of Ubuntu specific packages.
[17:09] <adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/UbuntuSpecificTranslations
[17:10] <adiroiban> When you are member / coordinator of a new team you will find  there is long road in front of you and your team.
[17:10] <adiroiban> There is a lot of work, so few members in the team. and assuring translations quality and consistency seems like an unachievable goal.
[17:11] <adiroiban> While the team has less than 5 active members it is  a good idea to keep the team open, but as soon as the team starts to be active and it has dedicated contributors consider moderating the membership for new members.
[17:11] <adiroiban> By allowing everyone to approve translations it will be very hard to assure the translation quality.
[17:11] <adiroiban> By moderating the team, each new member will be evaluated. This does not imply a closed team, it's just that new teams are made aware of the teams process and rules.
[17:12] <adiroiban> After the team has 2 or 3 active contributors please consider defining a guidelines for your team.
[17:12] <adiroiban> The guidelines should be a set of rules/steps/indication about how you should translate Ubuntu into your language, together with some info about the translation process from your team.
[17:13] <adiroiban> For the information regarding how to translate Ubuntu intro your language, please consult with the other translations teams that are doing translations for your language.
[17:13] <adiroiban> By doing so you will assure the consistency between the translations made by your team and for example GNOME, KDE, Mozilla localization team...
[17:13] <adiroiban> I tried to create a skeleton for such a guide
[17:13] <adiroiban> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/Guide
[17:14] <adiroiban> There is an option to add a big banner in Launchpad Translations to warn new translators about the guildelines
[17:14] <adiroiban> Here is a short tutorial about how to include your guidelines in Launchpad
[17:14] <adiroiban> http://adi.roiban.ro/2009/03/20/localization-guidelines-in-launchpad-towards-improving-quality/
[17:15] <adiroiban> Translations teams always struggle between translation quality/consistency and translation completeness.
[17:15] <adiroiban> My suggestion is to balance the above goals.
[17:15] <adiroiban> Source texts are added or modified very often and if you focus to much on quality there is a risk to loose the motivation, as your will not see to much progress.
[17:16] <adiroiban> Also while being member of an Ubuntu Translation Team please don't forget about other active translations teams for your language.
[17:16] <adiroiban> Ubuntu includes packages from many projects like GNOME, KDE and Ubuntu Translations teams should check the consistency of those packages as a whole.
[17:16] <adiroiban> For shared translations please do the translations upstream and then only check them in Launchpad.
[17:17] <adiroiban> This mean that for those translations you should work together with the upstream teams.
[17:17] <adiroiban> While running an localization team you can improve the quality of translations made by other translators by giving feedback.
[17:17] <adiroiban> you can consider creating a localization section on the Ubuntu Forum dedicated to your language
[17:18] <adiroiban> also you can get in touch with other Ubuntu translators using the Ubuntu Translations mailing list
[17:18] <adiroiban> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
[17:18] <adiroiban> or joining #ubuntu-translators IRC channel on  freenode
[17:20] <adiroiban> Now we will continue with the questions and answer part.
[17:20] <adiroiban> Also if you are member of on Ubuntu Localization team and would like to share some best practices, feel free to share them here.
[17:21] <adiroiban> any questions ?
[17:21] <adiroiban> BobJonkman: QUESTION: What sort of things get translated? Just documentation?
[17:22] <adiroiban> Ubuntu translations team handles both user interface  and documentation
[17:23] <adiroiban> for for example we also translate the Ubuntu Start page
[17:23] <adiroiban> and help with the translations of other texts, example Ubuntu Release Notes
[17:24] <adiroiban> When there is a request for such a translations, it is always announces via the ubuntu-translators mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
[17:25] <adiroiban> any other questions?
[17:26] <adiroiban> how many of you are already members of an Ubuntu Localization team (please use the -chat channel :)
[17:26] <adiroiban> ?
[17:26] <adiroiban> DoruHush: QUESTION: What is the relation between the translation teams and the team that update the packages in order to be included in the regular system updates after the main release. What translation team should do in order that their work to be included in yhe regular system updates?
[17:26] <hemanth> QUESTION : My professor is good at translation , but he is not good in using computers , he can translate hard copies , how can he help
[17:27] <adiroiban> Translations team should make sure their translations are made available in Launchpad
[17:28] <adiroiban> in order to create a updated package for a language
[17:28] <adiroiban> the maintainer of the language package extracts the translations from Launchpad
[17:28] <adiroiban> basicaly, a translations team should just use Launchpad for translation
[17:30] <adiroiban> hemanth: QUESTION : My professor is good at translation , but he is not good in using computers , he can translate hard copies , how can he help
[17:30] <adiroiban> He should learn how to use Launchpad Translations web tool
[17:30] <adiroiban> translating using Launchpad is really easy
[17:31] <adiroiban> and basicaly is just like translating hard copies
[17:31] <adiroiban> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/StartingToTranslate
[17:32] <adiroiban> if he still have problems using Launchpad for translation, I suggest to contact the Ubuntu Localization team appointed for his language
[17:32] <adiroiban> they should be able to guide him
[17:33] <adiroiban> any other questions?
[17:34] <JyZyXEL> i say stop wasting time translating, everyone can read english so there is no point making crappy translations that are just annoying
[17:34] <adiroiban> ok.
[17:36] <adiroiban> I think that you should translate for people that don't know english.
[17:36] <adiroiban> a rought statistics sais that only 1.8 bilions of people knows english
[17:36] <adiroiban> the translations are targeted to the other 5 bilions people
[17:39] <adiroiban> dpm: adiroiban: one thing I'd like to share as a member of a localization team is that resources like the Ubuntu wiki can be quite useful to a localization team, for example to track who's working on a translation in order not to duplicate work.
[17:39] <adiroiban> An example of such pages -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGermanTranslators/Aufgaben/Jaunty (German team). It is also useful for a team to look at what other teams are doing, and maybe learn something new and useful.
[17:44] <adiroiban> Thank you very much for you attention. We will take a short break, and at 17.00 UTC Billy Cina and Belinda Lopez will continue with a session dedicated to Ubuntu Training
[17:45] <nixternal> thanks adiroiban!!!
[17:47] <dpm> thanks Adi!
[17:55] <nixternal> In approximately 5 minutes Billy Cina and Belinda Lopez will provide a session on Ubuntu Training...Please stand by...Thank you!
[18:00] <nixternal> dinda: you ready? it is your turn!
[18:00] <dinda> Yip - let's roll
[18:01] <dinda> Greetings and welcome to the session on Ubuntu Training.
[18:01] <dinda> and just for gregknicholson:  Lllllllladies and gentlemen!
[18:01] <nixternal> hehe
[18:02] <dinda>  My name is Belinda Lopez and I am the Training Project Manager for Canonical.
[18:02] <dinda> Joining me today is my boss, Billy Cina, the Training Programme Manager and Matthew Lye of the Community-based Ubuntu Learning team.  Matt's at work but will try to answer any questions if needed.
[18:02] <dinda> In our roles at Canonical we deal with both public offerings/sales to the general public as well as providing course materials to our Training Partners.
[18:02] <dinda>  I'll explain our current catalog in a bit but you can find more info at http://www.ubuntu.com/training
[18:03] <dinda> Feel free to stop me at any time and ask questions and we'll also save time at the end.
[18:03] <dinda> At that site you can locate courses in your areas and find our more info on our training partners who offer programs throughout the world.
[18:04] <dinda> And just as there is both paid for support by Canonical and community resources, there is now a growing movement to have more community-based learning offerings along side our paid for training.
[18:04] <dinda> That new community initiative is being led by Matthew Lye, Charles Proffit, Lyz Krumbach and others in the Ubuntu Learning project.
[18:04] <dinda> They are in the process of setting up a Moodle-based Learning Management Server to create quality offerings for end users and contirbutors.  You can find more info on them at:
[18:04] <dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[18:05] <dinda> Charles led a session Monday during Open Week and you can find the transcript here:
[18:05] <dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/CommunityLearning
[18:05] <dinda> and there's my boss, Billy Cina :)
[18:06] <billycina> hello
[18:06] <dinda> wave billy
[18:06]  * billycina waves
[18:06] <dinda> 0/
[18:06] <dinda> I just learned that yesterday here
[18:06] <billycina> sorry - dodgy internet
[18:06] <billycina> what is it?
[18:06] <dinda> 0/  means waving
[18:07] <dinda> So what does Canonical offer in the way of training and certifications?
[18:07] <dinda> Great question!  I'll cover both our current offerings and planned offerings but would also love to hear your thoughts on potential courses and certification strategies.
[18:08] <dinda> Our current offerings include: the Desktop Course for end users, the Ubuntu Certified Professional for Sys Admins and now. . .
[18:08] <dinda> Deploying Ubuntu Server for advanced System Admins
[18:08] <rw> is the sabdfl Q and A over or does it still has to start?
[18:09] <dinda> rw: that was on Tuesday - it got moved
[18:09] <dinda> The Ubuntu Desktop Course available in both classroom and eLearning formats.
[18:09] <rw> oh well, maybe on the next release
[18:09] <dinda>  The classroom version of the course was developed in conjunction with the community and is available under the NC-SA-CC license for any Loco team, non-profit or other group to download and use to teach others.  You can find that course here:
[18:09] <dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training
[18:10] <dinda> The eLearning version of the course is available through the Canonical shop at:
[18:10] <dinda> https://shop.canonical.com
[18:10] <dinda> It is a self-paced course and you receive access to the materials for a full year so you can go back and review any topics at any time.
[18:10] <dinda> Next in the line of courses is the revised Ubuntu Certified Professional Program.  The UCP is a week long classroom course being offered by our partners.
[18:11] <dinda> The course covers all the basics for System Administrators.
[18:11] <dinda> The course is partial preparation to sit for the Ubuntu 199 exam.  The 199 exam is a follow on to the LPI (Linux Professional Institute) 1 & 2 exams.  You must pass all three exams to be UCP certified and you can take the exams in any order.
[18:11] <dinda> It is also recommended that you have at least six months active experience as a System Administrator.  More info on the exam can be found at:
[18:11] <dinda> http://www.ubuntu.com/training/exams
[18:12] <dinda> Partners are standing by ready to take your orders for this course!
[18:12] <dinda> If you have any questions on the UCP program please paste them into the chat channel.
[18:12]  * genii calls the 1-800 number
[18:13] <dinda> :)  We just got orders for a course in Brazil with our partner Fuctura so we're excited to see that happen.
[18:13] <Guest44920> are there any courses been giving in belgium ?
[18:13] <dinda> Fuctura also reports that sales of the desktop course are great.
[18:13] <dinda> An eLearning version of the course will be available this summer so stay tuned for more announcements.
[18:14] <dinda> Guest44920: you can check the ubuntu.com/training site to find a local partner
[18:15] <dinda> billycina: do you happen to know which partner would cover Belguim?
[18:15] <billycina> guest44920: we are signing up a Dutch partner who will also provide training in Belgium
[18:15] <yoshi_k> would be nice
[18:15] <dinda> The topics in that course include: Installation, Desktop Deployment, Community & Support, LAMP. Mail, Printing, File Servers and Security.
[18:15] <dinda> Everything you need to get a small to medium-sized organization up and running on the System Admin side.
[18:15] <dinda> More info on that course adn the 199 certification can be found at:  http://www.ubuntu.com/training/certificationcourses
[18:16] <dinda> And finally our newest course in the lineup is the Deploying Ubuntu Server course.
[18:16] <yoshi_k> suggestion: include ltsp and terminal server setup and maintance also in the server training our as a seperate module
[18:16] <dinda> We just completed our pilot for this course and are ready to offer it to the general public through the Canonical Shop.
[18:17] <dinda> https://shop.canonical.com
[18:17] <dinda> yoshi_k: I believe terminal server setup is covered in our Server course but nothing with ltsp at the moment
[18:18] <dinda> The Server course is an all online course, live, instructor led via videoconferencing.
[18:18] <dinda> The course includes access to our live virtual lab environment so you don't even need a local server or servers. We provide you access to a small virtual server farm to test and run labs and try to break and fix. You can do the entire course from your workplace or home.
[18:18] <dinda> The Server course is for intermediate to advanced System Administrators and covers such topics as:
[18:19] <dinda> Installation, Debian Package Management,
[18:19] <dinda> Visturalisation & Deployment, Security, Integrity & Performance,
[18:19] <dinda> Directory Services & Authentication
[18:19] <dinda> If that sounds like your idea of fun then come on down to your local Canonical Shop and sign up!
[18:20] <dinda> If you just really love the idea of sitting in a classroom and want an excuse to be away from your desk for a week then starting in June this course will also be offered by our training partners.
[18:20] <dinda> And since we have collected the best instructors in the whole world all just waiting to answer your tough questions this is a great opportunity to ask the really hard questions like "How do I get a qemu virtual machine to do a PXE boot"?
[18:20] <dinda> and don't get me started on Automated Deployments - oy vey!
[18:21] <dinda> So those are the current offerings - what's coming up next you ask?
[18:21] <dinda> Well, how about Cloud Computing and Switching from Red Hat/CentOS to Ubuntu and tons of micro-training offerings like. . .
[18:22] <dinda>  Ubuntu for Cable and other ISP installers, Using an Ubuntu machine to take online courses and whatever else might be helpful to make using and buying Ubuntu systems a breeze.
[18:22] <dinda> If you have ideas please send them to us via tour mailing list at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>or join us in #ubuntu-training.
[18:22] <dinda> You can also now follow our tweets at Ubuntu_Training.
[18:22] <dinda> One final thing on certification.  We are in the process of creating an entire certification stratgey similar to other professional programs.
[18:23] <dinda> We would very much like to have your input as to the types of programs you would like to see like a Security Specialist or Ubuntu Certified Developer or other.  If you have any thoughts, again please send them to the mailing list or find me in the IRC channel.
[18:23] <dinda> And finally, the new Ubuntu Learning Project is now up and running!
[18:23] <dinda> They would like your help in creating quality content for end users and potential contributors.
[18:23] <dinda> They are trying to be a framework for the entire community including the MOTU school, the Beginners Team on the Forums, the Doc Team and even Edubuntu and Loco Teams.
[18:23] <dinda> Their next meeting is May 9 in #ubuntu-meeting @ 2100 UTC.  More info on the team and how to get involved can be found on their wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[18:24] <dinda> Is Matthew Lye around?  Vantrax
[18:24] <billycina> Belinda Lopez: don't see him
[18:25] <dinda> Okay, so that's the basics of what we are working on.
[18:25] <yoshi_k> nice dinda, looks promising
[18:25] <dinda> We also have some programs for OEMS/ODMS and Support so if you happen to be in that category just contact us.
[18:25] <dinda> So. . .  questions?
[18:25] <billycina> (20:10:15) hemanth: Question : Ubuntu Desktop Course 9.04 ??
[18:25] <dinda> billycina: anything to add?
[18:26] <billycina> Belinda Lopez: nope - good job!
[18:26] <billycina> i will paste questions :)
[18:26] <dinda> hemanth: Right now we're only focusing on LTS . . .
[18:26] <dinda> we thought about interim updates but it's really hard to keep on top of all the little changes
[18:26] <billycina> 20:11:06) doctormo: Question: If the learning project decides to not allow NC licensed materials, would there still be room for collaberation?
[18:27] <dinda> so we find that even if a course is based on an older release the material is still valid except in minor cases
[18:27] <dinda> oh great - billy tosses me the licensging questions!
[18:27] <billycina> :)
[18:28] <dinda> doctormo: we're exploring all options for the desktop course licensing and I know the Learning Team has licensing on their agenda for the next meeting
[18:28] <dinda> Even if the materials are NC that is often very hard to enforce
[18:28] <dinda> so as it is a community-based effort, that team will have to decide on the licensing for their project
[18:29] <billycina> (20:12:13) sebsebseb: QUESTION:  How to get a job at Canonical  doing consumer/homeuser suppourt, and I assume business/servers?   Would I have to like study for LP1 first and an  Ubuntu qualification or something?
[18:29] <dinda> sebsebseb: The LPI and Ubuntu 199 are a great way to show that you're serious about skills
[18:30] <dinda> Certification is often a short cut that shows a certain level of competency.
[18:30] <dinda> By the end of the year all Canonical Support Persons will be 199 certified!
[18:30] <dinda> or so we've been promised by their boss :)
[18:31] <billycina> (20:14:11) pleia2: QUESTION: What is the release date of the "Ubuntu Desktop Course - Official Book" in the store? Does it cover 8.04? If not, will a revision be made available in the near future?
[18:31] <sebsebseb> dinda: as  far as I know LPI can be studyed at home, and then go somewhere for exams, not sure about the Ubuntu qaulification
[18:31] <dinda> the current desktop course is indeed based on 8.04 LTS
[18:31] <dinda> sebsebseb: exactly, you can self-study or take a course or buy books to help you prepare
[18:32] <dinda> pleia2: We're looking at updating the Desktop materials for the next LTS. . .
[18:32] <dinda> You can buy the book in the Canonical shop
[18:32] <dinda> it's already there for purchase
[18:32] <billycina> (20:29:24) hemanth: Question: When will Canonical shop for local currency come up ?  I mean no  $  or Euro conversions for non-US/UK countries
[18:32] <dinda> The PDF download is on our wiki
[18:33] <dinda> billycina: you want to chime in on that one?
[18:33] <billycina> sure
[18:33] <billycina> hemanth: I don't believe there are such plans.
[18:33] <jtholmes> charlie-tca, u on next or did u just put it together
[18:34] <hemanth> billycina: ok
[18:34] <billycina> hemanth: we have  uk based and US based stores which between them cover all the planet
[18:34] <billycina> the u.s. store is new
[18:34] <billycina> specially opened to make shipping costs much cheaper
[18:34] <hemanth> billycina: but say for example India , has huge population
[18:35] <billycina> hemanth: sure - so do china and brazil :)
[18:35] <hemanth> billycina: would it not be more profitable to setup shops here
[18:36] <billycina> hemanth: perhaps, but i personally have no idea of the infrastructure implications / requirements
[18:36] <hemanth> billycina: ok , if there are people interested in helping for that how can they ?
[18:37]  * billycina goes searching for the relevant contact, will be back in a moment
[18:39] <billycina> more questions in the meantime?
[18:39] <billycina> hemanth: https://shop.canonical.com/contact_us.php
[18:39] <dinda> They're speechless
[18:40] <billycina> :)
[18:40] <yoshi_k> :)
[18:40] <hemanth> billycina: thank you :)
[18:40] <dinda> doctormo: was inquiring about the licensing issue again
[18:40] <billycina> np
[18:40] <dinda> Just like there is professional paid for support and community support. . .
[18:40] <dinda> we have Professional paid for training
[18:41] <dinda> we've never stopped anyone from developing community-based training
[18:41] <dinda> and are indeed doing all we can to support those efforts
[18:42] <dinda> once we get to see some of what is being developed by the community we'll be happy to help point the learn.ubuntu.com subdomain to them
[18:42] <dinda> They are still in the process of getting going but anyone is free to join them and collaborate on their efforts
[18:43] <billycina> they do have some great ideas on how to promote ubuntu through free education
[18:44] <billycina> and would be a great team to join for anyone who has experience in training
[18:44] <billycina> both instructing and writing materials
[18:44] <dinda> one main area I'd really love to see the community develop is more of the "how to contribute" materials
[18:45] <yoshi_k> have to go people thanks and great job, we will surely contact the learning team later also the training team we are in the middle of setting up training and support in belgium for terminal server projects and migration from windows to linux env.
[18:45] <dinda> I would love to see regular MOTU courses and Doc Team courses to help new folks work through those processes
[18:46] <dinda> Mentoring is great but often not scalable now that the community continues to grow so regular classes would be great
[18:46] <billycina> bye yoshi_k
[18:48] <dinda> any suggestions on future courses?  certifications?
[18:49] <hemanth> dinda : nothing in particular as of now
[18:49] <dinda> ok, great
[18:49] <dinda> Thanks everyone!
[18:49] <billycina> thanks Belinda Lopez
[18:49] <dinda> don't forget about the upcoming Learning Team meeting on May 9
[18:49] <dayo> thank you
[18:50] <hemanth> thank you billycina and dinda
[18:53] <nixternal> thanks bigbrovar_ and dinda!
[18:53] <nixternal> err, thanks billycina and dinda ... silly autocomplete
[18:54] <nixternal> ausimage: YOU ROCK!!!
[18:55] <ausimage> :-$
[18:55] <nixternal> the logs on the wiki, you are super quick :) thanks a ton for that!
[18:55] <ausimage> np
[18:56] <dayo> nixternal: lol, u've just confused the hell out of my colleague
[18:56] <nixternal> sorry about that :)
[18:56] <nixternal> tell um you will buy him as much beer as he wants after work :)
[18:56] <nixternal> charlie-tca: here is your 3 minute notice :D
[18:57] <JPohlmann> charlie-tca: Have fun :)
[18:57] <charlie-tca> Thanks
[18:57] <charlie-tca> Thanks, nixternal
[18:57] <nixternal> Ladies and gentlement, for those in attendance, and the millions watching around the world.....LETS GET READY FOR XUBUNTU!!!!
[18:58] <nixternal> I can speel!
[18:58] <knome> good for you, nixternal
[18:58] <charlie-tca> Thank you, nixternal
[19:00] <charlie-tca> I'm Charlie Kravetz, known as charlie-tca on irc and the mailing lists. I am Xubuntu Quality Assurance Lead.
[19:01] <charlie-tca> We are going to talk a bit about Marketing, Testing, and Bugs in Xubuntu. We will take your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and
[19:02] <charlie-tca> will have a few minutes at the end to answer questions you hold on to. Feel free to ask questions at any time, but start them with QUESTION:
[19:02] <charlie-tca> so they easy to spot
[19:03] <charlie-tca> For example, QUESTION: What is Xubuntu?
[19:03] <charlie-tca> The answer would then be
[19:03] <charlie-tca> ubuntu is Ubuntu with the Xfce desktop. Xfce emphasizes conservation of system resources, which makes Xubuntu an excellent choice for any system, new or old.
[19:03] <knome> *Xubuntu is
[19:04] <charlie-tca> Yeah, that too. Missed that X
[19:05] <charlie-tca> As a ubuntu derivative, Xubuntu maintains the same high standards and quality that Ubuntu has. We still have bugs to track down and resolve, and we do help with the bugs in Ubuntu also. Testing is a combined effort, since the releases are on the same schedule.
[19:06] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu is an ideal candidate for older hardware or low-end machines, thin-client networks, or those who would like to get more performance out of their hardware.
[19:06] <charlie-tca> Also, Xubuntu is the Xfce-based distribution with a native 64-bit architecture. We produce both a 32-bit and 64-bit versions, and ports for the Mac PowerPC and Sony PlayStation 3.
[19:07] <charlie-tca> And, since Xubuntu is a dirivative of Ubuntu, we use the same repositories, and many of the same applications
[19:07] <charlie-tca> Along with producing those versions comes testing to make sure the distribution actually works. The goal is to have each image tested thoroughly before release. Being a small group, that becomes difficult at times.
[19:07] <knome> *derivative
[19:08] <charlie-tca> To accomplish this testing, almost any hardware will work. If you don't have spare hardware, you can test in a virtual machine. VMware, VirtualBox, and KVM can all be used to test software.
[19:08] <charlie-tca> Some of the testing must also be done on hardware. I personnally favor a PIII myself. I do not use any restricted drivers, and normally get 1400x900 resolution out of these machines. The cpu is only 866MHz.
[19:09] <charlie-tca> To help insure Xubuntu is lightweight and functional, testing is done using a PII, also. It is a 400MHz cpu with 256MB ram. This system insures the latest version still works using minumum hardware.
[19:09] <charlie-tca> Tests are run using both the desktop/live cd and the alternate cd with both systems, and even with 128MB and 192MB ram in the PII. This helps let the developers know what the minumums are that actually work.
[19:10] <charlie-tca> I am one of those people that really believe the stated minimums should be real! If I can't run what the minumums say, I question it. Granted, I don't expect perfect performance from it, but I should be able to use the system.
[19:10] <charlie-tca> Using Xubuntu, I expect to be able to run the applications provided, one at a time with the minumum hardware. As the hardware increases, I would expect the performance to increase.
[19:10] <knome> That's what the what the complete Xubuntu team thinks.
[19:10] <charlie-tca> Thanks to the hard work by Ubuntu, the startup times have decreased remarkably, even with low-end hardware.
[19:11] <charlie-tca> We have information on the xubuntu developers wiki at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo for testing Xubuntu. Since it is Xfce-based, many of the tests are unique to Xubuntu.
[19:12] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu testing team is https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers on launchpad. As testing and QA lead, I try to keep the test cases up to date on both QA and Xubuntu wikis.
[19:12] <charlie-tca> I do send out notices to the the xubuntu-testers launchpad team when a milestone is ready to be tested. More testers are always welcome.
[19:13] <charlie-tca> We maintain a test case for daily images, to allow a quick test to be done. There is a test used for the liveCD testing and neither test should take more than 5-10 minutes to complete.
[19:13] <charlie-tca> Admittedly, it does take a little more time on the PII then on more modern equipment.
[19:13] <charlie-tca> We also maintain a longer, more involved test for milestone releases. This allows more thorough testing before the users get the image.
[19:14] <charlie-tca> This test is just as important as the short tests, since it does test all the applications and settings
[19:15] <charlie-tca> When testing the images, results are reported on the qa tracker. This allows the Ubuntu QA team to know the images are good or bad, also. Any bugs found in testing need to be reported so that the developers know what the current issues are.
[19:15] <charlie-tca> At this time, I think we will let knome step in and say a few words
[19:16] <knome> OK, so quality assurance is more than just making sure that applications work
[19:16] <knome> It's also about letting out the best artwork for our users
[19:16] <knome> In Xubuntu, we have some guidelines for artwork which can be found in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Guidelines
[19:17] <knome> For every release. we also make some kind of general directions, which we try to follow as good as we can in the time we have
[19:18] <knome> Anyway, since I began the Xubuntu Marketing Lead, I've been keen on keeping consistency around the Xubuntu artwork
[19:18] <knome> That means we use the latest logo everywhere and try to get any page with the old logo updated, even if we don't have the permissions ourselves.
[19:19] <knome> A developer reported to me that he has become a great distunguished between the new and old logo ;)
[19:19] <knome> In addition to that, I prefer vector graphics in anything we do.
[19:20] <knome> For example, the complete Jaunty artwork cycle is in SVG, excluding the "mist" in the images.
[19:21] <knome> The final judgement and approval on artwork of course relies on the (developer) community or me as the Marketing Lead, but anything that is consistent with rest of the release cycle artwork should be OK.
[19:21] <knome> You are welcome to submit your artwork and marketing ideas!
[19:21] <knome> Now I'll pass the ball back to charlie-tca. Thanks for listening
[19:22] <charlie-tca> QUESTION: What effect does using vector graphics and SVG format have compared to the old png files?
[19:22] <knome> Right.
[19:22] <knome> As we do our graphics in vector, it leads to artwork reusability and flexibility.
[19:22] <knome> Anyone can take the file and edit it further.
[19:23] <knome> Anyone can modify it relatively easily.
[19:23] <charlie-tca> Thank you, knome
[19:23] <charlie-tca> Any other questions at this time?
[19:24] <hemanth> nope
[19:24] <charlie-tca> Well, lets cover a little about bugs, then.
[19:24] <charlie-tca> We report bugs found through launchpad. They can be reported at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+filebug . I do much of the bug triage for Xubuntu, and most of our bugs in Xfce are forwarded upstream.
[19:25] <charlie-tca> We do verify a number of the bugs reported to Xfce from other sources.
[19:26] <charlie-tca> We work very close with upstream xfce, abiword and gnumeric bug teams to help resolve the bugs found. Once you report a bug, it goes through a process called bug triage. Bug triage is simply the process of determining that there is a bug, how important is the bug to the overall scheme, and is there enough information for a developer to resolve the bug.
[19:27] <charlie-tca> You will find that I often triage the Xfce, AbiWord, and Gnumeric bugs for this reason. I am also the bugsquad contact for these bugs.
[19:27] <sebsebseb> Abiword :)
[19:27] <charlie-tca> We will work very closely to the Ubuntu bugsquad when triaging, and follow the guidelines set in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage. A very important idea in triaging is that just because only one person had a failure, that does not make it invalid.
 QUESTION:do some de-bugging tools work better than others with xfce/xubuntu?
[19:29] <charlie-tca> I use the same tools as the bugsquad. The procedures at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures work very well.
[19:30] <charlie-tca> One thing is to learn to use strace. Most of the gnumeric developers will request a backtrace, which we have under strace in the procedures
 QUESTION : Default file browser ??
[19:31] <charlie-tca> Xfce comes with Thunar instead of Nautilus for a file manager. Most functions are the same.
 QUESTION : How can I downgrade from ubuntu to xubuntu?
[19:31] <charlie-tca> We actually prefer to call that an upgrade!
[19:31] <knome> ;)
[19:32] <charlie-tca> You can run both gnome and xfce desktop environments by install "xubuntu-desktop" to Ubuntu.
[19:32] <sebsebseb> heh heh,  well people can have,  Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Xubuntu, all in the  same install
 QUESTION: When I asked the Kubuntu dev who spoke a couple days ago about what sets KDE apart from the other environments, he pointed to its shininess. How do we make Xubuntu shinier?
[19:33] <knome> We make Xubuntu shinier by a fantastic Marketing team!
[19:33] <knome> We are emphasizing on the artwork on the next release and pushing out completely new GTK, GDM, wallpaper, etc. themes.
[19:33] <charlie-tca> We don't actually aim for "shininess". We would prefer to know the artwork is the best of all, and that you can use Xubuntu on your hardware.
[19:33] <knome> That too. It's a combination of good-lookingness and working on low-end artwork.
[19:34] <charlie-tca> When you, as a user, file a bug on launchpad, it goes through several stages. Somebody is going to review the bug report. The first person to review will decide if the report is filed to the correct package, and if there is enough information for the developers.
 QUESTION: Does Xubuntu have LTS releases like mainstream Ubuntu?
[19:36] <charlie-tca> Since we are an Ubuntu derivative, we use the same release schedule as Ubuntu. We did release 8.04 as an LTS version
[19:37] <BobJonkman> tkx
[19:38] <charlie-tca> At this time, if Ubuntu 10.04 releases as an LTS, we plan to release Xubuntu LTS also.
[19:39] <charlie-tca> Part of the review of the bug is an attempt to reproduce the bug in the latest version of Xubuntu. If the developers have fixed the issue in the latest development version, it is normally much easier to fix in an earlier version.
 charlie-tca: QUESTION: How do you contribute the success and awesomeness that is Xubuntu when, like Kubuntu, you have a small deverloper community consisting of mostly volunteers?
[19:40] <charlie-tca> Excellent question, nixternal
[19:40] <nixternal> s/contribute/attribute
[19:40]  * knome shouts PASSION
[19:40] <charlie-tca> Our volunteers are very passionate about Xubuntu
[19:41] <charlie-tca> They spend considerable time working to create the best possible OS they can, and the results do reflect that.
[19:42] <cody-somerville> Its helps that the Ubuntu base is so awesome to work with in the first place too
[19:42] <charlie-tca> That is correct. Thanks, cody-somerville
[19:43] <charlie-tca> We also have really good leadership in Xubuntu.
[19:43] <knome> yayyyy for cody-somerville
 QUESTION: Isn't their a  later version of XFCE in development?  The version group in  Xubuntu has been there for years it seems.
[19:44] <knome> Just a quick note before someone really answers this: Xubuntu Jaunty comes with 4.6 and not with the "old" 4.4.x
[19:44] <charlie-tca> One of reasons for that is because Xfce version numbers are at 4.
[19:45] <charlie-tca> The versions are updating as Xfce updates. Hardy had 4.2, Intrepid 4.2 and 4.3
[19:45] <charlie-tca> Now we have 4.6.0 in Jaunty
[19:45] <rufong> agreed, installed xubu today from livecd, no problems
[19:46] <charlie-tca> When 4.8.0 is ready for release, we will include that in Xubuntu.
[19:46] <knome> QUESTION:  When is XFCE 5.0?
[19:46] <charlie-tca> Whenever Xfce gets to 5.0, I would think. The next release planned is 4.8
[19:46] <knome> Maybe 2020.
[19:47] <sebsebseb> ok  thanks guys you answered my two release questions
[19:47] <charlie-tca> You are welcome
[19:48] <JPohlmann> Next planned after 4.8 is 4.10 and so on.
[19:48] <charlie-tca> Okay, we had a great session yesterday on bug reporting. Xubuntu uses the same reporting tools as Ubuntu.
[19:48] <JPohlmann> Similar to the versioning of GLib and GTK+ (2.10, 2.12, 2.14 ...)
[19:49] <charlie-tca> You can review those tools by reading the session logs at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/BugReports
[19:49] <sebsebseb> charlie-tca: yeah and Kubuntu will use the same bug reporting stuff to, I assume
[19:49] <charlie-tca>  QUESTION: How do you have time and passion to test all those alphas, betas and whatever with your low-end hardware?
[19:49] <charlie-tca> Kubuntu is not the same, I can speak for their processes
[19:50] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu and Ubuntu are both GTK based, which makes working with the tools easier. Kubuntu is KDE based, instead of GTK
[19:50] <charlie-tca> which won't always allow the same tools.
[19:50]  * cody-somerville notes that KDE based means it uses QT instead of GTK.
[19:51] <charlie-tca> That's the missing works, thanks
[19:51] <knome> Qt, not QT?
[19:51] <knome> :P
[19:51] <nixternal> knome:  is correct, and it is pronounced "Cute" :)
[19:51] <nixternal> not Q T
[19:52] <charlie-tca> I have time and passion for testing because I really enjoy doing it. I hope that by doing that, I can contribute a little back to a
[19:52] <charlie-tca> OS that has given me so much.
[19:52] <sebsebseb> charlie-tca: and great community :)
[19:53] <charlie-tca> indeed, a truly great community that makes it a joy to spend time helping.
 QUESTION : How/Where to start with the Xubuntu Team ? (Interested in web site and marketing contribution)
[19:53] <knome> Join #xubuntu-devel and contact knome. Oh wait, that's me...
[19:54] <knome> :)
[19:54] <charlie-tca> Getting started with Xubuntu is easy and fun! For the average user, you can get help and support through either #xubuntu on Freenode or the xubuntu users mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-users. We're a friendly bunch and enjoy helping folks :-)
[19:54] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu comes ready to use on any equipment. It gives excellent performance with no loss of applications.
[19:54] <charlie-tca> New users are often surprised to find that Xubuntu includes a number of gnome applications. These are included simply because if an application works well, and is considered lightweight, it fits. Any application can be included, and it does not matter if it starts with gnome, xfce, or anything other letters.
[19:54] <charlie-tca> AbiWord and Gnumeric instead of OpenOffice.org are included as default applications in Xubuntu, so we handle most of the Gnumeric and AbiWord bugs too, since those are the default applications. They are both very powerful for the user, yet lightweight.
[19:54] <knome> If you want to join the *developer* team, there is #xubuntu-devel and there is also the developer mailing list, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
[19:55] <sebsebseb> charlie-tca: yeah Abiword is awsome and my favourite word proccessor
[19:55] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu Jaunty 9.04 does have Xfce 4.6 included, which has many improvements over 4.4. The menus are freedesktop.org compliant now.
[19:55] <charlie-tca> The volume control is based on GStreamer 0.10 now. Since the new xfce4-mixer uses gstreamer, it no longer has to maintain code for different sound architectures like alsa, esd, etc. Gstreamer takes care of it. Xubuntu does not ship with pulse audio enabled.
[19:56] <charlie-tca> The developers have included gigolo, to make networking and sharing files simpler than ever.
 QUESTION: For people used to Gnome/Ubuntu, what are the main differences in UI/user experience in Xfce/Xubuntu? What takes the longest to get used to?
[19:56] <charlie-tca> Great question.
[19:57] <charlie-tca> I think the fact that Xfce is not Gnome takes time to learn. There is always a learning curve.
[19:58] <charlie-tca> New users find that it is not as simple as Gnome to do things. Sometimes the command line must be used instead of a GUI.
[19:58] <charlie-tca> File sharing could be improved, since it is not as easy as using Nautilus.
[19:58] <JPohlmann> The settings dialogs are very different to those from GNOME in some regards.
[19:59] <JPohlmann> So it's sometimes difficult to find a certain setting.
[19:59] <sebsebseb> yeah the default menus are differnet here and there
[19:59] <charlie-tca> As part of one of the best, fastest growing distributions available, we welcome anyone who would like to assist in development, testing, and bug triage!
[20:00] <charlie-tca> Thank you all for being here.
[20:00] <nixternal> thanks charlie-tca and thanks to the entire Xubuntu community, great job!
[20:00] <nixternal> ...
[20:00] <sebsebseb> I'll second that :)
[20:01] <nixternal> The next topic will be Ubuntu News Team with John Crawford, the guy who fixed the mess I helped create a couple of years ago....so without further ado, I bring you the one, the only, John Crawford!!!
[20:01] <johnc4510> nixternal: thx :)
[20:01] <nixternal> APPLAUSE: Everyone chear!
[20:01] <johnc4510> Hello everyone. Who loves Ubuntu?
[20:01] <johnc4510> w00t
[20:01] <johnc4510> My name is John Crawford(johnc4510), I live in Tucson, AZ USA, and I spend most of my free time doing volunteer work in the Ubuntu Community. Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~johnc4510 Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JohnCrawford
[20:02] <johnc4510> I am involved with several teams in the Ubuntu Community, but today I'm here as the chief editor of the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter and an editor for The Fridge.
[20:02] <johnc4510> I'll start off by giving you our news-team resources:
[20:03] <johnc4510> Launchpad: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-news
[20:03] <johnc4510> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewsTeam
[20:03] <johnc4510> IRC Channel: #ubuntu-news on irc.freenode.net
[20:03] <johnc4510> Mailing List<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:03] <johnc4510> Here are the projects that the Ubuntu News Team is reponsible for are:
[20:04] <johnc4510> The Fridge: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge
[20:04] <johnc4510> The Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
[20:04] <johnc4510> Joining our team is a great way to contribute and get involved in the Ubuntu Community. Not everyone using Ubuntu has the ability to develop, package or translate.
[20:05] <johnc4510> There are however, many things a non-technical person can do to contribute to our team, and the Ubuntu Community.
[20:05] <johnc4510> We'll start out today talking about The Fridge.
[20:05] <johnc4510> The Fridge: wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge and our website: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/
[20:06] <johnc4510> The Fridge is the official news site for the Ubuntu Community. The items reported in The Fridge are considered breaking news about Ubuntu and our community.
[20:06] <johnc4510> The scope of The Fridge is narrower than the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter, which we will be discussing later
[20:06] <johnc4510> We concentrate on breaking Ubuntu and community news. Howto's, most blogging content about installing or configuring applications, etc are not considered appropriate Fridge material.
[20:07] <johnc4510> Now, even though The Fridge is considered the official news source for Ubuntu and our community, anyone can submit ideas for content.
[20:07] <johnc4510> It's very easy to do, just drop into #ubuntu-news, or send an email to the teams mailing list<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:08] <johnc4510> If your Ubuntu project is doing great things, and you'd like the greater Ubuntu Community to know more about it, simply write it up and submit it.
[20:08] <johnc4510> Please don't feel like you don't have the talent to write something up, you know the facts, and we can help polish it if needed.
[20:09] <johnc4510> The Fridge is widely read not only by our community, but also by many big name news reporting agencies, and popular blog sites.
[20:09] <johnc4510> These outside reporting agencies often quote our content which increases Ubuntu's exposure. The more exposure we get, the more it helps to promote Ubuntu and our community.
[20:10] <johnc4510> The Fridge editors administer the site, and approve news content.
[20:10] <johnc4510> We are always looking for news content to add to the site to further promote Ubuntu and our community.
[20:10]  * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
[20:10] <johnc4510> What your team is doing is important to the project, and by helping us to report it you'll be doing you part to advocate Ubuntu, and fix bug #1!
[20:11] <johnc4510> Join our team, or keep us informed if you're on another team that is doing fantastic Ubuntu work.
[20:11] <johnc4510> also our events calendar is at http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
[20:12] <johnc4510> this calendar shows all events within the community that are reported
[20:12] <johnc4510> it's a great way to keep up with the other teams in the Ubuntu community
[20:13] <johnc4510> instructions for the calendar are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar
[20:13] <johnc4510> we encourage everyone to help us keep the calendar up to date
[20:14] <johnc4510> and to help advocate for Ubuntu and our community by keeping us informed of what your team is up to
[20:15] <johnc4510> Ok, lets move onto the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter now. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
[20:15] <johnc4510> The UWN is a totally different news reporting outlet than The Fridge. It covers a much wider section of news than The Fridge does.
[20:16] <johnc4510> The UWN is a weekly publication that you could compare to your Sunday paper.
[20:16] <johnc4510> The idea is to report Community news, projects and also what is being said about Ubuntu out there in cyber space.
[20:17] <johnc4510> QUESTION: how did the fridge get it's name
[20:17] <johnc4510> lol, that's a good one...i'm not sure i know...but i would suspect it comes from someones humorous idea of notes posted on a refrigerator
[20:18] <knome> or things that are fresh
[20:18] <johnc4510> right
[20:18] <johnc4510> :)
[20:18] <johnc4510> maybe nixternal or boredandblogging would know, they've been around longer
[20:18] <johnc4510> ?
[20:19] <johnc4510> Sometimes that news isn't always favorable, but our publication is here to keep the community up to date with what's being said, good or bad.
[20:19] <nixternal> sure, Benjamin Mako Hill actually came up with the name at like the first UDS iirc
[20:19] <nixternal> he called it that because it was a spot to stick up little snippets pertaining to Ubuntu
[20:19] <johnc4510> nixternal: thx for bailing me out there :)
[20:19] <nixternal> hehe, no problem
[20:20] <nixternal> the original spec for the Fridge is still on the wiki somewhere
[20:20] <johnc4510> Since we publish a totally new edition every week, that means we start every week with a clean slate.
[20:21] <johnc4510> That gives us only one week to research, read, classify by section, summarize, refine, proof and publish a new edition.
[20:21] <johnc4510> We publish the edition, or links to it in serveral places.
[20:21] <johnc4510> Ubuntu Forums: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=243
[20:22] <johnc4510> Planet Ubuntu: http://planet.ubuntu.com/