[08:08] <donglei> hello everyone, how to map right-alt to capslock key
[08:14] <dholbach> donglei, you might want to ask in #ubuntu - this channel is for meetings only
[08:14] <MooDoo> donglei: i'd ask in #ubuntu this is really for meetings
[08:14] <MooDoo> donglei: jinx ;)
[08:14] <MooDoo> i mean dholbach jinx :)
[08:14] <dholbach> :)


[02:10] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[02:10] <ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 23 Nov 23:00: MOTU meeting | 30 Nov 01:00: Desktop Team Development
[08:26] <MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
[11:51] <persia> Erm.  Is ubotu's clock fast, or is mine slow?
[11:52] <dholbach> persia: I think it announces the next meeting 10 minutes beforehand
[11:52] <persia> Ah.  It's intentional then.  OK.
[11:52]  * persia prepares notes
[11:53] <dholbach> who takes notes?
[11:53] <TheMuso> I'd say I would do it, but, I think I've done it enough.
[11:53] <persia> dholbach: I always make notes when I'm presenting a topic, or are you asking about minutes?
[11:53] <TheMuso> FOr a while at least.
[11:54] <dholbach> I meant minutes
[11:54] <dholbach> TheMuso: thanks a lot for doing that the last<PHONE_NUMBER>567 times
[11:54] <TheMuso> dholbach: lol np. I just think its a good experience for others.
[11:54] <dholbach> yeah, I agree
[11:54] <persia> I'll take minutes if nobody else wants them, but as I'm presenting a topic, I'm not sure there isn't a conflict of interest
[11:54] <TheMuso> However, I am happy to send out reminders, as they didn't happen this time around.
[11:55] <TheMuso> persia: Lets see how many turn up.
[11:55] <dholbach> thanks TheMuso
[11:55] <dholbach> persia: I think that's fine
[11:55] <persia> Was I supposed to send announcements this time?  Sorry :)
[11:55] <persia> s/:)/:(/
[11:55] <TheMuso> persia: I don't know.  The chair is dholbach.
[12:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[12:00] <dholbach> Welcome everybody to another MOTU Meeting!
[12:00] <dholbach> We have an agenda at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
[12:00] <dholbach> and we have persia and pitti (just pinged him) presenting the first item on it
[12:00] <pitti> hi
[12:00] <dholbach> Updates to the universe SRU policy. See TB review from [WWW] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html
[12:00] <persia> The Technical Board recently discussed the SRU policy for Universe, due to questions on the part of the archive administrators.  The results were published to the ubuntu-devel mailing list, and a decision was requested from MOTU.  I've raised this item to the agenda for discussion and selection between the two choices presented by the technical board.
[12:00] <persia> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html
[12:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html
[12:00] <persia> After informal discussion in various media, I'd like to encourage the restoration of ~motu-sru as an approval body.  With sufficient staffing, I believe that a single ACK should not be a significant delay.
[12:00] <persia> Further, I'd like to propose that the members of ~motu-sru be directly appointed by the MOTU Council, and that any issues with the membership of the team be raised to MC for dispute resolution.
[12:01] <persia> Additionally, I'd like to request review of the policy by the newly restored ~motu-sru, with an eye towards explaining any variation from main.
[12:01]  * persia is done flooding
[12:01] <TheMuso> heh
[12:01] <TheMuso> No argument from me.
[12:01] <TheMuso> Sounds pretty clear cut.
[12:02] <sistpoty|work> +1 on all points from me :)
[12:02] <dholbach> What about the following plan? The MC will ask for people to join ~motu-sru and appoint say 4 members among them.
[12:02] <soren> Someone suggested at some point that the UVF team and the SRU team should be the same.
[12:02] <persia> dholbach: That sounds good to me: I'm not concerned with how MC appoints, I just don't think we should vote for wisdom.
[12:02] <pitti> yeah, both is about enforcing freeze policies and review
[12:03] <dholbach> Having experienced this to be a bottle-neck and it not being easy to find those people, we could still fallback to 2b to decide and move forward.
[12:03] <sistpoty|work> dholbach: maybe rather 5 ppl?
[12:03] <persia> soren: I'm not sure about that: that might mean a lot of work after FF
[12:03] <\sh> I want to see people in the SRU team, who knows very well, that it's vital that those updates are really fixing bugs and not introducing strange new behaviours to our software
[12:03] <pitti> really, two or three people should be enough
[12:03] <dholbach> sistpoty|work: works for me... my main point is trying to avoid the situation where we don't get the team staffed and the process is stalling
[12:03] <pitti> NB that we don't want a lot of SRUs in the first place
[12:03] <persia> pitti: Not with current MOTU activity: we need volume to ensure we don't block on missing people.
[12:03]  * \sh wonders who pushed azeureus through -updates yesterday with a backports number
[12:04] <sistpoty|work> dholbach: sure, let's just say 5 is ideal, but the team could start working with less members as well ;)
[12:04]  * persia agrees with sistpoty
[12:04] <dholbach> Ok.
[12:04] <\sh> +1 for sistpoty|work
[12:05] <dholbach> [ACTION] dholbach to send out request for people interested in ~motu-sru.
[12:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  dholbach to send out request for people interested in ~motu-sru.
[12:05] <dholbach> thanks
[12:05] <pitti> \sh: that was sort of a special case; it was tested in backports, and since it is completely broken in feisty we copied it to -updates
[12:05] <pitti> \sh: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/azureus/+bug/57875
[12:05] <persia> So, does the adoption of this require further discussion, or should it be AGREED ?
[12:05] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 57875 in azureus "Azureus hangs or crashes showing splash screen at start" [High,Fix released]
[12:05] <sistpoty|work> pitti, soren: not too sure if having uvf team the same as sru team, as the review process is different (single patches vs. diffstats), shrug
[12:06] <TheMuso> I don't think further discussion is needed.
[12:06] <TheMuso> c/
[12:06] <\sh> pitti, well, on gutsy it was just crashing when opening the torrent link tab...not at the splash
[12:06] <soren> sistpoty|work: I'd *really* like to change the policy about UVF this time, too, actually. diffstats mean *nothing* to me.
[12:06] <\sh> pitti, anyways...not important here ,-)
[12:06] <pitti> sistpoty|work: really? people read diffstats? what's the purpose of that?
[12:06] <pitti> soren++
[12:06] <dholbach> pitti: to get an idea of how big the changes are, to see if they are only doc/ changes, etc
[12:06] <persia> soren: pitti: It's one of the ways to identify the volume of change.
[12:06] <soren> pitti: That's the UVF policy. It says to submit diffstat's. Go figure.
[12:06] <sistpoty|work> pitti: don't know... have never been a member of motu-uvf
[12:07] <soren> persia: I can make completely crackful patches in just one line and really good patches in 10000 lines.
[12:07] <pitti> persia: right, but you still need to review the actual changes, and filterdiff'ing the debdiff is more useful IMHO
[12:07] <dholbach> let's separate the uvf discussion from the current ont for now
[12:07] <pitti> right, sorry
[12:07] <persia> pitti: I use both, but yes.
[12:07] <Lutin> dholbach: on the other hand, you can break APIs with tiny changes (speaking about the diffstat size)
[12:07] <soren> dholbach: Right, sorry.
[12:07] <dholbach> Lutin: sure
[12:07] <dholbach> ok, shall we discuss merging the two teams now?
[12:08] <pitti> ok, seems there is no real discussion about the new SRU policy?
[12:08] <persia> dholbach: Could we have a MootBot AGREED on the policy choice before discussing team merge?
[12:08] <dholbach> the SRU policy decision seems to be fine as it is, I just hope we get the team together quickly
[12:08] <sistpoty|work> persia: +1
[12:08] <dholbach> [AGREED] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html proposed change (2a)
[12:08] <MootBot> AGREED received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html proposed change (2a)
[12:09] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Shall we merge ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf?
[12:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Shall we merge ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf?
[12:09] <dholbach> Opinions?
[12:09] <sistpoty|work> I'd rather not do this...
[12:09] <persia> I'll argue against this: they are different tests of suitability, and it makes for a possible high volume of review (even for a high reject rate) between FF and release.
[12:09] <TheMuso> Having never been on either team, I can't speak for the workload, but I think it may make sense.
[12:09] <DktrKranz> I think they focus on two separate worlds
[12:10] <DktrKranz> so, merge them could not be a good choice, IMHO
[12:10] <dholbach> "it's all about patches..."
[12:10] <dholbach> ;-)
[12:10] <\sh> there is a difference between UVF and SRU at distro level....SRUs are more difficult to decide, so we need people who know what they are doing...UVF for universe is just a bit more harmless
[12:10] <soren> The skillset required is pretty much the same: Evaluate proposed changes based on policies for the given point in the release cycle, but if it's going to be a blocker for finding volunteers, it's not that important to me.
[12:10] <TheMuso> But I'm willing to defer to those with more experience.
[12:11] <persia> soren: The skillset is the same, but the criteria are different.
[12:11] <soren> persia: Sure.
[12:11] <dholbach> but I agree, it might make sense to keep them separate as the workflow is different and it might turn out to be a bottleneck
[12:11] <sistpoty|work> I'd rather have these teams separated, because it's more clear then what bugs are sru bugs and what uvf bugs
[12:11] <\sh> soren, one difference is there: with UVF exceptions you don't break older releases
[12:11] <soren> \sh: I know, I know.
[12:11] <dholbach> ok, let's keep them different for now then
[12:11] <persia> If someone wants to do both, I don't see a problem with them being on two teams, I just don't want to confuse things.
[12:11] <dholbach> [AGREED] ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf will be kept separate for now.
[12:11] <MootBot> AGREED received:  ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf will be kept separate for now.
[12:11] <sistpoty|work> persia: yes
[12:11] <Hobbsee> if -uvf and -sru get merged, i'm not being a part of -uvf
[12:12] <persia> Hobbsee: They won't be: see above :)
[12:12] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Security Fixes for Universe (StephanHermann)
[12:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security Fixes for Universe (StephanHermann)
[12:12] <pitti> dholbach: both teams can still share members, after all
[12:12] <\sh> yay
[12:12] <dholbach> \sh: your stage
[12:12] <\sh> it's me :)
[12:12] <dholbach> pitti: exactly
[12:12] <Hobbsee> persia: i was lagged.  compiz crashed :)
[12:12] <dholbach> more emblems! :)
[12:12] <pitti> but separating the roles might be beneficial indeed, yes
[12:12]  * persia likes emblems
[12:12] <persia> Anyway:  \sh?
[12:12] <soren> s/emblems/pieces of flair/
[12:12]  * sistpoty|work looks innocent about the motu-swat icon *g*
[12:12] <\sh> ok, what we need are some more people doing also the non loved security fixes for universe especially for our LTS release (speak dapper) and also for older releases like feisty  and gutsy
[12:13] <\sh> when I saw the list of CVEs for universe I was surprised to see more SRUs without really serious bug fixes like vulnerabilities
[12:13] <dholbach> \sh: is there a list of things that need doing?
[12:13] <persia> \sh: Are you recruiting now, or is there something else for discussion?
[12:13] <dholbach> \sh: is there some documentation for those tasks?
[12:13] <\sh> persia, it's something for discussion
[12:14] <\sh> dholbach, 1) kees has a list of CVEs which are still not fixed
[12:14] <dholbach> \sh: is this list publically available?
[12:14] <\sh> dholbach, 2) well it's most likley source work
[12:14] <sistpoty|work> \sh: in the past, the security policy was a bit unclear to me, as at least in some cases fixes more than to the actual security fix were accepted. is this still the case?
[12:14] <\sh> dholbach, sure...people.ubuntu.com/~kees/ubuntu-cve
[12:14] <dholbach> \sh: would it help to have a section on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO with a link and what's expected of people interested in doing this?
[12:15] <soren> \sh: 404
[12:15] <dholbach> I'm happy to pimp that section and inform people about it
[12:15] <\sh> soren: moment
[12:15]  * Fujitsu arrives.
[12:15] <\sh> soren, damn..it's deleted :(
[12:15] <Fujitsu> sistpoty|work: As far as I know that's forbidden and keescook will eat you alive if you try.
[12:15] <Fujitsu> For good reason.
[12:15] <\sh> dholbach, would be nice..I'll provide some infos what to do...mostly it's nothing for starters
[12:16] <dholbach> also maybe it'd help to have public meetings with all the security folks to invite new people and assign tasks
[12:16] <sistpoty|work> Fujitsu: ok, great
[12:16] <DktrKranz> \sh, what about http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/ubuntu-cve/ ?
[12:16] <Fujitsu> DktrKranz: That's the CVE tracker spoken of.
[12:16] <\sh> DktrKranz, it's old and not maintained anymore...kees took over
[12:16] <pitti> I'm not sure whether this is still relevant
[12:16] <DktrKranz> ah, ok
[12:16] <pitti> right
[12:16] <sistpoty|work> is http://launchpad.net/~motu-swat/+subscribedbugs current as well?
[12:16] <\sh> dholbach, would be cool...I'll provide some infos about it
[12:16]  * pitti makes a note to talk about this with Kees and remove it if appropriate
[12:16] <dholbach> [ACTION] \sh to add information about security tasks on MOTU/TODO page
[12:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  \sh to add information about security tasks on MOTU/TODO page
[12:16] <Fujitsu> Oops, the *branch* in ~pitti is right, the other stuff isn't.
[12:16] <kraut> moin
[12:17] <\sh> sistpoty|work, yepp...but most actual is the list of our main security team...because all of the sec bugs are listed there
[12:17] <dholbach> \sh: do you think it'd make sense to invite people who are interested to a meeting and discuss the topic there?
[12:17] <\sh> Fujitsu, it's not up2date afaik
[12:17] <Fujitsu> \sh: The branch is.
[12:17] <sistpoty|work> \sh: ah... could we auto-import bugs from that list somehow to lp?
[12:17] <sistpoty|work> (or wouldn't make that sense)
[12:17] <persia> I think kees was planning a new interface in the next week or so
[12:17] <soren> \sh: How does this work? You submit debdiffs for the security team to look at, and if it's good, they upload?
[12:17] <\sh> soren, this is one step...
[12:18] <persia> sistpoty|work: Not everything applies: it requires human intelligence to determine the right set of releases against which to file the bug.
[12:18] <\sh> soren, you have to follow the Security Update rules first, you need to know where to grab the patches etc.
[12:18] <\sh> soren, our security team (named keescook and jdstrand) will review those patches and publishing them to our archives
[12:18] <soren> \sh: Of course. I'm just interested in the technical part of it.
[12:18] <\sh> (right now they are not publicly announced)
[12:18] <soren> \sh: Alright.
[12:19] <dholbach> thanks \sh for documenting this - I guess that's going to be a good first step - what about meetings to invite new people?
[12:19] <\sh> dholbach, sure..we can do that
[12:19] <persia> Do we need meetings?  I'd rather see recruiting mail & -classroom sessions on the workflow, personally.
[12:19] <dholbach> \sh: great - if you could collect some ideas about the meeting, I'm happy to announce to various places
[12:20] <dholbach> persia: some people might want to ask questions, I found meetings a good opportunity to meet and talk to those people
[12:20] <\sh> dholbach, will do
[12:20]  * persia defers, but hopes this does not cause a recruiting delay
[12:20] <\sh> as a note why I wanted to raise this issue
[12:20] <dholbach> [ACTION] \sh and dholbach to work on organising a meeting for people interested in security tasks
[12:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  \sh and dholbach to work on organising a meeting for people interested in security tasks
[12:21] <\sh> I think it's important to our users and audience to show that we also take care about the security of the community driven archive
[12:21] <dholbach> absolutely
[12:21] <dholbach> thanks \sh for bringing this up
[12:21] <\sh> thanks to you for your time :)
[12:21] <sistpoty|work> \sh: yes, and it's great to see the team spamming my inbox lately :)
[12:21] <dholbach> :)
[12:21] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Other Business
[12:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Business
[12:22] <\sh> sistpoty|work, you are welcome :)
[12:22] <dholbach> going once... :)
[12:22]  * Fujitsu notes he has a few more to do tomorrow.
[12:22] <\sh> Fujitsu, wordpress
[12:22] <dholbach> twice
[12:22] <dholbach> no other business?
[12:22] <Fujitsu> \sh: That's more than a few (ie. 42)
[12:22]  * persia has a quick one
[12:22] <dholbach> persia: fire away
[12:23] <persia> I just want to confirm that nobody has any further planned followup to the ML threads about New Upstream Version reviews and REVU guidelines before I update the wiki.
[12:23] <sladen> hard to confirm an open-ended question.  But I haven't...
[12:23] <\sh> Fujitsu, yeah, a new one came yesterday or the day before ,-)
[12:24] <persia> sladen: good point.
[12:24] <Fujitsu> \sh: 6301 or so, yeah. What fun.
[12:24] <dholbach> persia: seems that nobody in #ubuntu-meeting does :)
[12:24] <persia> Thanks.  I'll go ahead, as most of the parties with previous concerns appear to be present :)
[12:24] <dholbach> anything else before we move on?
[12:25] <dholbach> [TOPIC] agree on date and time of next meeting
[12:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  agree on date and time of next meeting
[12:25]  * persia proposes 20:00 UTC 7th Dec 2007
[12:25]  * TheMuso can do that.
[12:25]  * DktrKranz too
[12:25]  * Fujitsu can probably.
[12:25]  * soren can't.
[12:26]  * sistpoty|work will try but not promise
[12:26] <persia> We're traditionally skipped the 04:00 UTC in the rotation.  Is anyone a big fan of that time?
[12:26]  * dholbach isn't :)
[12:26] <soren> me neither
[12:27] <TheMuso> I am sorta, but understand that it doesn't suit most people in the states and nobody in Europe.
[12:28] <sistpoty|work> I guess it's hard to find fans for the 04:00 UTC among people currently present ;)
[12:28] <dholbach> at some stage we should discuss that on the list or have a wiki table with the timezones everybody lives in
[12:28] <\sh> hmm...at 13 UTC is motu faq session, right?
[12:28] <persia> Actually, I thought it would be good for people in the Americas, as attendance at the other times seems low, but perhaps it's a demographic issue as to who participates in meetings.
[12:29] <persia> dholbach: Last time we did that, we ended up not having a MOTU meeting for a month.
[12:29] <dholbach> I think it's fine for us to stick to the time suggested, but raise the topic in a different medium than IRC :)
[12:29] <sistpoty|work> make it so
[12:29] <persia> sistpoty|work: There weren't any fans at the last 20:00 session either.  I think 04:00 fans just don't come to meetings.
[12:29] <dholbach> alright, let's do 20:00 then
[12:29] <Fujitsu> Are there any 04:00 fans?
[12:29] <sistpoty|work> persia: hehe
[12:30] <dholbach> [AGREED] Next meeting: 20:00 UTC 7th Dec 2007
[12:30] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Next meeting: 20:00 UTC 7th Dec 2007
[12:30] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: I am, but understand why its not accepted by others.
[12:30]  * DktrKranz usually sleeps at 04:00
[12:30] <TheMuso> My point exactly.
[12:30] <dholbach> [ACTION] dholbach to think about MOTU timezones table
[12:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  dholbach to think about MOTU timezones table
[12:30] <dholbach> [ACTION] agree on date and time of next REVU DAY
[12:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  agree on date and time of next REVU DAY
[12:30]  * persia finds 04:00 convenient, but doesn't have issues with the other times.
[12:30] <TheMuso> REVU days == Mondays?
[12:30] <dholbach> shall we remove that action item from the agenda? we seem to stick to mondays anyway
[12:30]  * persia proposes 26 November and 3 December
[12:31] <\sh> YAY
[12:31] <Fujitsu> persia: And very subsequent Monday until FF?
[12:31] <Fujitsu> +e
[12:31] <\sh> I just got a mail that I have a day for test working for United Internet ,-)
[12:31] <persia> I'm happy to remove it from the agenda: it's been Mondays for the past six months or so (since we added it to the agenda)
[12:31] <persia> Fujitsu: Sounds good to me.
[12:31] <dholbach> persia: great thanks
[12:31] <dholbach> same goes for "agree on date and time of MOTU Q&A sessions"
[12:31] <TheMuso> I think its a day that all hopefuls knwo that will get a chance at having their work looked at.
[12:31] <dholbach> it's Q&A Friday!
[12:32] <dholbach> ok, looks like we're through our agenda
[12:32] <persia> Sure.  I think both of those got added to the agenda because we weren't scheduling them enough.  If we do every Monday and Friday, we should be good.
[12:32] <dholbach> persia: great
[12:32] <dholbach> thanks a lot everybody!
[12:32] <dholbach> adjourned
[12:32] <TheMuso> np
[12:32] <sistpoty|work> thanks dholbach for hosting
[12:32] <dholbach> anytime :)
[12:32] <sistpoty|work> (alter! *g*)
[12:33] <persia> (except 04:00 UTC) :)
[12:33] <dholbach> yeah :)
[12:33] <dholbach> #endmeeting
[12:33] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:33.
[12:33] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Headers has all the "next ... is going to be at ..." headers
[12:34] <persia> dholbach: Shall we just call it Mondays for REVU, and Friday, 13:00 UTC for Q&A static then?
[12:34] <dholbach> persia: that sounds great
[12:34] <dholbach> we can still change it if necessary
[12:34] <dholbach> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20071123_1200.html
[12:34] <persia> dholbach: Or do you want to keep it updated with the actual next one (I don't mind updating for REVU, but I might forget occasionally)
[12:35] <dholbach> no, I think a static text is OK
[12:35]  * persia edits
[12:35]  * dholbach hugs super-persia
[12:35] <persia> Do we have a next scheduled Packaging 101?
[12:35] <persia> Err.  Ignore that.
[12:35] <pitti> thanks
[12:36]  * sistpoty|work needs to resume working
[12:36] <sistpoty|work> cya
[12:36] <dholbach> bye sistpoty|work :)
[12:37] <Hobbsee> oh, for those who are still here...
[12:37] <Hobbsee> there's a ppa101 session on next week - if you're interested in learning about it, or being involved in it, watch the usual mailing lists for news
[12:38] <dholbach> good point - we should pimp those sessions more
[12:38] <persia> Hobbsee: You could add it to the headers if you like: I'm done with edits.
[12:40] <Hobbsee> persia: this is true
[12:55] <effie_jayx> in 5 minutes
[12:56] <effie_jayx> huats,  hello
[12:57] <huats> hey effie_jayx
[12:59] <huats> effie_jayx: so how is it going ?
[13:00] <effie_jayx> huats,  well I feel a little eager to get to work but the internet is so unreliable in this conference
[13:01] <effie_jayx> I checked out bugs yesterday
[13:01] <effie_jayx> basically learning to find bugs that are related to problems in packages... and not just support requests
[13:02] <effie_jayx> and also learning what packages are affected by those bugs
[13:02] <huats> ok
[13:02] <effie_jayx> then I will be able to see if the new version of the package actually provides a fix for that bug
[13:02] <huats> great
[13:03] <huats> playing with bugs is COMPULSORY since we have to fix them :)
[13:05] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  ping
[13:06] <dholbach> effie_jayx: pong
[13:06] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  is it time yet?
[13:06] <dholbach> effie_jayx: #ubuntu-classroom
[13:06] <effie_jayx> oh
[13:06] <effie_jayx> doh


[10:48] <rmg51> Morning
[11:01] <JonathanD> MOrning.
[11:07] <rmg51> MOrning JonathanD
[11:14] <JonathanD> Hi.
[14:44] <MutantTurkey> http://lwn.net/Articles/479710/
[14:44] <MutantTurkey> who's running PennBot?
[14:44] <MutantTurkey> we need to get the link thing working again
[14:49] <jedijf> anonical pulls the plug on Kubuntu
[14:49] <MutantTurkey> yeah
[14:49] <MutantTurkey> interesting
[14:50] <MutantTurkey> they've really stopped caring about anything but unity
[14:50] <jedijf> caring and underwriting are exclusive
[14:51] <MutantTurkey> why does lwn still have that terrible layout though?
[14:51] <MutantTurkey> i wish they'd choose something saner
[14:51] <MutantTurkey> I like the minimalism. I don't like the layout
[14:52] <jedijf> i wish i read it more
[14:52] <MutantTurkey> it's rather good
[14:52] <MutantTurkey> I need to get a subscription
[14:53] <jedijf> i just subscribed DOH - i have a subscription - THANKS MARK - never subscribed to email
[14:54] <MutantTurkey> whut
[14:55] <jedijf> Canonical supports jedijf
[14:55] <jedijf> lwn subscription
[14:55] <MutantTurkey> haha
[14:55] <jedijf> true, all members get LWN sub as bonus
[14:57] <MutantTurkey> what is the command for nvermind...
[14:57] <MutantTurkey> xprop
[15:01] <MutantTurkey> WOHOOOO
[15:01] <MutantTurkey> jedijf: new 3.0.20 kernel can "According to Matthew Garrett, who developed the patch, the change can reduce the power consumption of a Thinkpad X220 by 5 watts. "
[15:02] <MutantTurkey> how'd they know I wanted that so badly?
[15:02] <MutantTurkey> on my natty install I could get down to 8-9 watts.
[15:02] <MutantTurkey> now i'm at like 15/16
[15:05] <MutantTurkey> its mostly this crappy realtek driver
[15:05] <MutantTurkey> no powersaving on it yet
[15:22] <jedijf> that's a young persons game; my era is more power
[15:30] <MutantTurkey> lol
[15:31] <MutantTurkey> I am loooking into getting a opteron build server going
[15:31] <EvilResistance> MutantTurkey, i'm running PennBot, but I also had an explodified python lib set, so its on a fractured system atm
[15:32] <EvilResistance> unless any of you has an additional 55MB RAM you can lend me on a VPS or a server... :P
[15:33] <MutantTurkey> EvilResistance: let me check
[15:33] <MutantTurkey> nope
[15:33] <MutantTurkey> 55mb
[15:33] <MutantTurkey> holy crap
[15:33] <EvilResistance> thats what its using actively right now
[15:34] <EvilResistance> (i should point out its in 3 channels, excluding its reporting channel)
[15:34] <JonathanD> This is gonna be a bad day.
[15:34]  * EvilResistance SSH's to the box and digs around in the system
[15:34] <MutantTurkey> why JonathanD
[15:34] <JonathanD> remote server hosted with crappy provider is down.
[15:34] <JonathanD> won't reboot, won't come back up.
[15:37] <EvilResistance> hmm...
[15:37] <EvilResistance> MutantTurkey, i've loaded the URL plugin, but it seems to not work
[15:38] <EvilResistance> i'll have to dig around further to find out why
[15:38] <MutantTurkey> huh
[15:38] <MutantTurkey> http://google.com
[15:39] <EvilResistance> MutantTurkey, the "title snarfer" config option doesnt show up, so i'm digging around for the configs
[15:40] <rmg51> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dickens
[15:40] <MutantTurkey> whut whut whut
[15:40] <MutantTurkey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patagonia
[15:40] <rmg51> MutantTurkey: ^^
[15:41] <MutantTurkey> yep
[15:43] <EvilResistance> https://trekweb.org/
[15:43] <PennBot> Title: TrekWeb Internet Services - About Us (at trekweb.org)
[15:43] <EvilResistance> ^ there we go
[15:44] <EvilResistance> MutantTurkey, want to guess why it wasnt working?
[15:44] <EvilResistance> :P
[15:44] <MutantTurkey> why?
[15:45] <EvilResistance> because they have two plugins that do the same thing and no difference in description between the two...
[15:45] <EvilResistance> but it doesnt correctly run in one of the plugins :P
[15:47] <jedijf> http://www.lameexcuseplugin.com
[15:47] <MutantTurkey> lamalex...
[15:47] <MutantTurkey> plugin.dotcom
[15:48] <EvilResistance> wtfh...
[15:48]  * EvilResistance beats the system
[15:48] <EvilResistance> that returned an error jedijf
[15:50] <adom> any chance anyone here has used Facebook chat with Pidgin?
[15:51] <EvilResistance> adom,  a while ago, then they changed their API and things exploded
[15:53] <MutantTurkey> adom: yes
[15:53] <MutantTurkey> I thought it was just XMPP?
[15:53] <MutantTurkey> it works fairly well for me
[15:53] <MutantTurkey> or did
[15:53] <adom> yeah its xmpp but its not working for me
[15:53] <adom> keeps saying "Not authorized"
[15:53] <adom> i even tried the Facebook plugin for Pidgin which keeps saying Incorrect username or password
[15:53] <adom> but i use the exact same user/pass tologin to the site
[15:54]  * EvilResistance points at his last statement which points out Facebook changed their API and things broke
[15:54] <adom> so using facebook chat via pidgin no longer works?
[15:55] <EvilResistance> i cant get it to work with Empathy either, so...
[15:55] <EvilResistance> and fwiw i dont really use facebook anymore so... :p
[16:00] <adom> i use FB all the time to communicate with friends/family
[16:01] <adom> just want to close the web page and just have chat available
[16:01] <MutantTurkey> huh
[16:02] <MutantTurkey> use facebook's chat in it's own window
[16:02] <MutantTurkey> thats nice
[16:02] <jedijf> i stopped using it on bitlbee to avoid people
[16:02] <adom> MutantTurkey: dont think you can do that anymore
[16:02] <jedijf> so use bitlbee
[16:02] <adom> hmm
[16:02] <MutantTurkey> huh
[16:03] <MutantTurkey> bitlbee is just as bad
[16:03] <MutantTurkey> isn't itbased on libpurple?
[16:03] <adom> whatever works ill try at this point
[16:03] <adom> assuming its not insecure
[16:03] <adom> er....unsecure?
[16:03] <adom> not secure
[16:03] <jedijf> it's facebook
[16:03] <adom> if its that, i dont like it
[16:04] <jedijf> food or work
[17:33] <adom> i got facebook chat to work via xmpp in pidgin. but now im second guessing pidgin as my im client. i dont think i can turn off the Snort updates of people logging in and out of facebook and its really annoying.
[17:33] <adom> most im clients let you customize notifications, but i cant find anything in pidgin that does.
[17:35] <adom> debating giving the bitlbee train a ride...
[17:35] <adom> can somoene give me a quick one line explanation of how it works?
[17:35] <adom> my guess is that bitlbee is a server that runs locally [or remotely?] and irssi has a plugin that connects to the bitlbee server?
[17:36] <adom> also accepting linux im client recommendations
[17:52] <ChinnoDog> bitlbee is an IM client
[17:53] <ChinnoDog> there isn't a one line explanation but there is a nice page pleia2 created about getting started with bitlbee
[17:54] <ChinnoDog> http://princessleia.com/bitlbee.php
[17:54] <PennBot> Title: PrincessLeia.com - Bitlbee Quickstart Guide (Online Edition) & Notes (at princessleia.com)
[17:54] <adom> i thought bitlbee was a server that you view with an irc client
[17:54] <ChinnoDog> It is an IM client that runs as an IRC server
[17:55] <adom> wow princessleia.com, impressive
[17:55] <ChinnoDog> pleia2 is impressive
[18:54] <InHisName> any of you using musicbrainz ?
[18:56] <MobileTurkey> bleck
[19:31] <adom> InHisName: i think ive used the Picard thingy before for automatic MP3 tagging
[20:23] <adom> wth...since when is CentOS a desktop distro?
[20:24] <adom> coworker installed it on a box thinking of tossing up a quick LAMP server...upon restart we were presented gnome2 desktop interface
[20:24] <adom> ive only ever known CentOS as a server OS
[20:54] <ChinnoDog> I think I am going to transplant my computer into an old case
[20:55] <JonathanD> I need a case for mine.
[20:55] <JonathanD> I have a semi-decent gaming rig in a piece of bent aluminum.
[20:55] <ChinnoDog> lol
[20:56] <JonathanD> It used to be a case, probably even a good one.
[20:56] <JonathanD> But the side is missing pieces, all the drive bays up front are missing the fillers, and it just looks like crap
[20:56] <ChinnoDog> Well, I have this Antec Sonata case that is heavy duty and quiet despite its many fans but the motherboard is ancient and it needs a new power supply because the one it has does not have thermal controls. (I replaced it and was too cheap... oops)
[20:56] <ChinnoDog> And the power supply in the current case I think is what is making obnoxious noises
[20:56] <ChinnoDog> So I will need a new power supply too
[20:57] <ChinnoDog> You could potentially have my old case
[20:57] <JonathanD> I have a good PSU.
[20:57] <ChinnoDog> There is nothing wrong with it aside from poor noise dampening ability for my many fans and hard drives
[20:57] <JonathanD> well
[20:57] <JonathanD> ok
[20:57] <JonathanD> it's mostly good
[20:57] <JonathanD> The fan doesn't work
[20:58] <ChinnoDog> haha. That is mostly good?
[20:58] <JonathanD> so I shoved another one in and wired it to the HDD power supply
[20:58] <ChinnoDog> I need to stop buying things with fans
[20:58] <JonathanD> The previous power supply made my HDD catch on fire, so I took it out.
[20:59] <ChinnoDog> When I am done the Sonata will be sporting 5-8 hard drives, two 120mm fans, CPU fan, graphics card fan, power supply fan
[20:59] <JonathanD> Too many fans.
[20:59] <ChinnoDog> That is a good reason to remove it. lol
[20:59] <JonathanD> I thought so.
[20:59] <JonathanD> Yet... I kept it.
[20:59] <ChinnoDog> When I had a quiet PSU the whole system was quiet. It was amazing
[20:59] <JonathanD> Logic would dicate it should be thrown away.
[20:59] <JonathanD> But maybe I can use it still!
[20:59] <ChinnoDog> Antec Sonata is very well built
[21:00] <JonathanD> The current PSU is an antec something.
[21:00] <JonathanD> I think.
[21:00] <ChinnoDog> :-\
[21:00] <ChinnoDog> But, flaming hard drives are bad
[21:00] <JonathanD> ChinnoDog: not the burning one.
[21:00] <JonathanD> the burning one, I took out.
[21:00] <JonathanD> one of the HDD power connectors was sort of smushed.
[21:00] <JonathanD> so it shorted.
[21:01] <JonathanD> and melted the plastic right off the drive.
[21:01] <ChinnoDog> oops
[21:01] <JonathanD> the drive still works if you shove some paper or something in the socket so the leads make contact.
[21:01] <JonathanD> But I opted to replace that, too :)
[21:01] <JonathanD> I have a nifty little 10,000rpm SATA disk in it now, instead.
[21:02] <ChinnoDog> I need a hot swap cage so I can add all my hard drives
[21:02] <JonathanD> I only game on this machine.
[21:02] <JonathanD> Only one disk. All my storage is on NAS.
[21:02] <JonathanD> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136322 is the disk, I got one for free.
[21:02] <PennBot> Title: Newegg.com - Western Digital VelociRaptor WD3000HLFS 300GB 10000 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gbs 3.5 Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive (at www.newegg.com)
[21:02] <JonathanD> it's only 300GB though.
[21:03] <ChinnoDog> "free"?
[21:03] <JonathanD> yes
[21:03] <JonathanD> My boss gives me his "old" stuff.
[21:03] <ChinnoDog> sweet
[21:03] <JonathanD> Thats also how I got the NAS, actually.
[21:03] <waltman> And the holodeck
[21:04] <JonathanD> only some of it
[21:04] <JonathanD> and one of these babys... http://www.dexternights.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/lenovo-thinkpad-x200-tablet_4a2.jpg
[21:05] <waltman> This means that JonathanD's boss must have a really kick-ass holodeck in HIS basement.
[21:13] <ChinnoDog> By the time I am done my computer is going to weigh a ton
[21:13] <ChinnoDog> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816215242
[21:13] <PennBot> Title: Newegg.com - iStarUSA BPN-DE230SS-RED 2 x 5.25 to 3 x 3.5 SASSATA Trayless Hot-Swap Cage - Server Accessories (at www.newegg.com)
[21:13] <ChinnoDog> I like it. Trayless, supports SATA 1-3 and SAS 1 and 2
[21:20] <ChinnoDog> What do you call the connector on a power supply that you plug your fans into so that it can regulate the fan speed?
[21:24] <ChinnoDog> I'm tempted to get a fanless power supply and get a thermocouple controlled rear 120mm fan with a pass-through connector for the forward fan
[21:24] <adom> you mean the molex connectors? or the 3-4 pin headers on your motherboard?
[21:24] <ChinnoDog> I mean on the PSU specs. some of them control additional internal fans for you, some of them don't
[21:24] <ChinnoDog> I forget what type of connectors they have. i will have to look
[21:24] <adom> ive never been much of a fan speed control person
[21:25] <adom> just let the bios handle it
[21:25] <adom> never had an overheating issue with decent ventilation
[21:26] <adom> i take that back
[21:26] <adom> back in the day i used to run dual SLi video cards in my dad's dusty basement. one day i started getting visual errors, like bright lines streaking across the screen. then the PC just stopped turning on.
[21:27] <adom> took out the video cards and both had seeping capacitors
[21:27] <adom> so, besides that, ive never had an overheating issue
[21:27]  * adom blushes.
[21:28] <adom> i need to start keeping track of my away status
[21:28]  * adom waves bye.
[21:29] <ChinnoDog> seeping capacitors was a production problem
[21:29] <ChinnoDog> It affected all computers made with them. I think that era lasted about a year and a half.
[21:29] <ChinnoDog> It was too big to recall
[21:50] <ChinnoDog> looks like the rear fan has molex connector only. It came with the case. Forward hard drive fan has 3 pin connector that splits into a molex pass-through for power and a single wire 3 pin connector so it can be controlled by the motherboard
[22:32] <ChinnoDog> I made a huge mess on my floor. Computer parts everywhere
[23:03] <MutantTurkey> who wanted that kernel 3.2 source?
[23:03] <MutantTurkey> francisbrwn9/kernels/ubuntu/
[23:03] <MutantTurkey> from PPA
[23:04] <MutantTurkey> erstazi: was that you?\
[23:39] <ChinnoDog> Sure, I move the computer so I can verify what is making the noise and now it won't do it
[23:39] <ChinnoDog> after I went through all the work to hollow out another case for it
[23:40] <MutantTurkey> woop woop
[23:45] <ChinnoDog> ... it did it, and I fixed it. It was the GPU fan
[23:48] <ChinnoDog> I take it back. It isn't fixed, but it is the GPU fan. hmm
[23:48] <ChinnoDog> pleia2 knows all about having too many fans


[00:01] <em> hi
[00:01] <em> is anyone here awake?
[00:08] <Linda^> no
[00:08] <Linda^> :)
[00:10] <em> hehe hi Linda sorry im speaking English here.
[00:11] <em> I don't have an Ubuntu question but I wanted to learn something related to Swedish culture and I didnt know where else to find a lot of Swedes.
[00:24] <TomJohnson> em, I wouldn't know either
[00:24] <Linda^> em: haha.
[00:24] <Linda^> efnet sweden for example.
[00:28] <Linda^> I see TomJohnson joined the channel. and got banned :o What did you do? :o
[00:29] <TomJohnson> Linda^, connected the wrong way
[00:29] <Linda^> oh
[00:29] <Linda^> what way is the wrong way
[00:29] <Linda^> ?
[00:30] <TomJohnson> With the built in web client in the browser
[00:30] <Linda^> oh
[00:31] <TomJohnson> Well no problem, I just wanted to check it out as I've only heard of it now
[00:40] <Linda^> no activity there right now though
[00:43] <em> ive heard that snus is very common in Sweden. Is it used by both men and women?
[00:44] <Linda^> yes it is.
[00:44] <em> It's completely socially acceptable?
[00:45] <Linda^> I hate it. But I guess it is.
[00:45] <Linda^> why wouldn't it be used by both men and women?
[00:45] <em>  That's cool just wondering :)
[03:23] <larsemil> morrn
[05:22] <Barre> mörrn mörrn
[05:22] <Barre> uppe med tuppen idag larsemil
[05:22] <larsemil> min son gillar morgonen kan man säga
[05:22] <Barre> nice
[05:22] <larsemil> har till och med lyckat ta mig till jobbet redan
[07:11] <HeMan> Morrn!
[15:37] <thecpaptain> försöker installera GD library på Ubuntu 14.04. Installationen verkar gå bra, men när jag kör 'make check' så får jag felmeddelanden http://pastebin.com/MXaxuzzb. Några idéer?


[07:09] <dholbach> good morning
[08:42] <iulian> Morning dholbach.
[09:38] <dholbach> hey iulian
[11:58] <Unit193> quadrispro: You seem a bit interesetd in darkice, would you likely also be interested in "sponsoring" http://paste.openstack.org/show/soNXGBhFpxqsCDbRXLO3/ this update to 1.2, likely fixing the jack issue (can't test) and adding opus support?
[11:59] <quadrispro> Unit193, really do I?
[11:59] <quadrispro> Unit193, just kidding, I'll have a look
[12:00] <Unit193> Hah, nice.  No big deal, just trying to get some of my local delta upstream.  Emailed the Debian maintainer beginning of May, no news.
[12:02] <quadrispro> Unit193, what about merging the delta back to Debian?
[12:02] <quadrispro> at least the non-Ubuntu-specific changes
[12:03] <quadrispro> Unit193, and if the maintainer didn't reply we may still manage an NMU
[12:04]  * quadrispro running out of the office for lunch break - brb
[12:04] <Unit193> quadrispro: Well this is a merge of sorts, so I didn't update standards or all that since Ubuntu likes to keep it minimal, same with NMUs.  And on that note, can you add features/build-deps in an NMU?
[12:04] <Unit193> But, I'm all for Debian having this (seems everything is in main.)
[12:05] <mark06> how to add my sofrware to universe instead of ppa?
[12:07] <Unit193> mark06: Perhaps look at this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages  Might try to get it in Debian first if you can.
[12:48] <quadrispro> Unit193, I'm back, let me have a look at the package and at your diff
[12:50] <quadrispro> Unit193, looks that the latest 1.2 release would bring a fix for RC bug#723068
[12:51] <mark06> Unit193: ah true, ok
[12:51] <quadrispro> Unit193, and it's now feasible to enable the mp3 feature as lame entered the Debian archive some time ago
[12:52] <Unit193> That's what I thought, but never used jack and I know it's not simple.  dget https://sigma.unit193.net/source/darkice_1.2-0ubuntu1.dsc  work for you?  Sure, just don't remember the rules of what can and can't be done in an NMU.
[12:53] <Unit193> The diff is applies to 1.0-1ubuntu1 packaging and upstream source.  I have that patch added to fix compile on 32bit multiarch, and have added a patch upstream too.
[12:56] <quadrispro> Unit193, I've just started to work on the 1.2 release, I'll apply your patch as well
[12:57] <Unit193> quadrispro: Cool, great, thanks!  FWIW I'm in pkg-multimedia as well.
[13:00] <quadrispro> Unit193, could you please send me the fix_libs_multiarch_i386.patch separately? -><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[13:00] <Unit193> Ah crap, email.  Sure, want anything with it?
[13:01] <quadrispro> Unit193, paste it somewhere
[13:06] <Unit193> quadrispro: Should be good.
[13:07] <quadrispro> Unit193, I've been wondering if it was the case to switch the package to dh-autoreconf
[13:07] <quadrispro> Unit193, that *should* properly regenerate the configure file
[13:08] <quadrispro> Unit193, and I haven't used 'should' accidentally, I haven't yet tested it
[13:12] <Unit193> quadrispro: 1. Doesn't have autogen.sh.  2. Would still have the same problem wouldn't it?  That is, https://code.google.com/p/darkice/issues/detail?id=107 (I, err, didn't know I was creating an "issue" with "edit this code", thought it was more of a pull req.)
[13:13] <Unit193> But yeah, it'd be a smaller patch.
[13:20] <quadrispro> Unit193, building right now -> http://debomatic-amd64.debian.net/distribution#unstable/darkice/1.2-0.1/buildlog
[13:21] <quadrispro> ouch, my fault
[13:22] <quadrispro> re-building
[13:22] <Unit193> Leftover linkage.
[13:24] <quadrispro> Unit193, lintian report
[13:24] <quadrispro> -> http://debomatic-amd64.debian.net/distribution#unstable/darkice/1.2-0.1/lintian
[13:24] <quadrispro> Unit193, do you have a debian box to do some testing?
[13:25] <Unit193> quadrispro: If a VM counts, otherwise they're headless.
[13:26] <quadrispro> Unit193, go for it, I'll be testing on a machine somewhere around here, just need the time to allocate one
[13:32] <Unit193> Meh, VM is 32.  Though point of interest, build never failed on 64bit since acinclude had the 64bit multiarch dir.
[13:35] <quadrispro> Unit193, http://debomatic-i386.debian.net/distribution#unstable/darkice/1.2-0.1/buildlog
[13:35] <quadrispro> let's see what happens
[13:35] <Unit193> Heh, was just going to rebuild locally.  Got a typo in changelog, without-lame.
[13:36] <Unit193> Yeah, that one failed.
[13:36] <quadrispro> Unit193, yep, you're right, so what we need is a patch for configure.in
[13:38] <quadrispro> alright, I think I've found it
[13:38] <quadrispro> and it's neither in configure.in nor in configure
[13:39] <Unit193> Oh?  Worked in a chroot, where is it?
[13:44] <quadrispro> Unit193, one sec, brb
[13:44] <Unit193> Sure.
[13:47] <quadrispro> acinclude.m4
[13:48] <quadrispro> I'm trying to work around it
[13:56] <Unit193> Right, that's the one I linked.
[13:56] <Unit193> Anywho, thanks for taking a look!
[15:03] <quadrispro> Unit193, I'm still on it
[15:14] <quadrispro> Unit193, adding the i386 lib path is not robust enough, it would keep failing on other architectures
[15:32] <mark06> how to configure a custom subdir as root for a deb package?
[15:35] <quadrispro> Unit193, http://debomatic-i386.debian.net/distribution#unstable/darkice/1.2-0.1/buildlog
[15:52] <quadrispro> Unit193, done, thanks!


[07:50] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[08:17] <MooDoo> howdy all :)
[08:22] <brobostigon> morning MooDoo
[08:22] <MooDoo> how are you brobostigon ?
[08:23] <brobostigon> hangover after wedding celebration last night. and you?
[08:23] <MooDoo> I'm fine, just waiting for 1pm lol
[08:24] <brobostigon> :)
[08:37] <diplo> Part timer MooDoo !
[08:37] <diplo> Morning all
[08:38] <MooDoo> diplo: yeah started at 6
[08:40] <diplo> I'd like that... problem is, most customers don't start till 8, even though I don't deal with them that often
[08:46] <MooDoo> diplo: i don't deal with customers directly all the time, so that's ok
[08:51] <diplo> My company is old, stuck in their ways, it's good and its bad. Can be so frustrating at times, there is really no need for me to sit in the office
[08:59] <MooDoo> diplo: if i didn't have to support staff with trivial things, I'd work from home
[09:09] <diplo> :)
[09:18] <MooDoo> helps being it manager lol
[09:27] <diplo> We don't really have any structure at our place
[09:27] <diplo> So what do they do for 4 hours without the IT manager ?
[09:30] <MooDoo> diplo: i've a collegue
[09:31] <diplo> :)
[09:33] <MooDoo> diplo: and our shifts are generally 8 - 4 so people know when we're in and cope when we're not
[09:43] <diplo> Are you on call MooDoo ?
[09:44] <diddledan> mycroft have a version 2.0?! https://techcrunch.com/video/mycroft-open-source-voice-assistant/59c2b725c214e377dac11512/
[09:48] <MooDoo> diplo: not officially, but i'll answer if it rings during the week up until 10pm
[09:50] <diplo> Can't ask more than that with it being not official :)
[09:51] <MooDoo> diplo: yeah :)
[10:56] <diddledan> wtf is a "functional distro"? https://nixos.org/
[10:57] <diddledan> and no it doesn't mean "working"
[10:57] <diddledan> they're using "functional" as in "functional programming"
[11:01] <diddledan> "there is no /bin, /sbin, /lib, /usr, and so on. Instead all packages are kept in /nix/store."
[11:01] <diddledan> joy
[11:10] <MooDoo> :)
[11:54] <m0nkey_> Aloha
[11:59] <MooDoo> howdy
[12:20] <diddledan> m00
[12:21] <diddledan> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TTgdd8Y1/
[12:22] <diddledan> I can't believe cowsay isn't in the default installation!!
[12:30] <diddledan> scary email :  https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/HggkskXL/Screenshot%20from%202017-10-06%2013-29-55.png
[12:30] <diddledan> methinks I shall not be opening that pdf
[12:32] <m0nkey_> diddledan: Why are you not using Quassel?
[12:33]  * diddledan checks his watch..
[12:33] <diddledan> Tuesday?
[12:34] <m0nkey_> Good. I want it installed, working and being used by Tuesday.
[12:51] <diddledan> got a spare Ton and Ten (pounds)? https://play.google.com/store/movies/details/DC_Universe_25_Movie_Collection?id=i6sig4CJHDo
[12:51] <diddledan> that's a lotta moolah
[13:13] <diddledan> dnsmasq vuln: https://security.googleblog.com/2017/10/behind-masq-yet-more-dns-and-dhcp.html (announced Monday by Google, so probably patched already but I've only just heard about it and found it interesting)
[13:14] <diddledan> I need something sweet. chocolate.
[13:15] <diddledan> I love living with a sweetie shop a stone's throw away
[15:08] <m0nkey_> yeah, that dnsmasq bug pushed back the release of pfsense 2.4
[19:27] <diddledan> I wonder if I've left any wilys about
[20:11] <daftykins> diddledan: i sure hope not
[20:17] <diddledan> it's OK, I think they're all upgraded to Xenial now
[20:17] <diddledan> ba dum. tsh
[21:57] <daftykins> diddledan: not like you to have your wilys under controls
[21:57] <daftykins> -s


[08:13] <juliank> I'd be inclined to believe there's a packaging bug here somewhere https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/2025462
[08:13] -ubottu:#ubuntu-desktop- Launchpad bug 2025462 in apt (Ubuntu) "Apt deletes ubuntu-desktop during dist-upgrade" [Undecided, Incomplete]
[08:14] <juliank> it's really hard to figure out why gnome-shell was removed to upgrade gnome-shell-common
[08:16] <juliank> I think I see what's going on
[08:17] <juliank> The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that the bumped mutter dependency and a phasing mismatch caused new gnome-shell versions to be uninstallable because they depend on not-yet-phased mutter
[08:18] <juliank> so apt calculates to upgrade gnome-shell and mutter, but then undoes all the upgrade paths involving mutter, but the gnome-shell-common upgrade path remains valid
[08:19] <juliank> so now we remain with gnome-shell-common marked for upgrade and the 2nd stage solver removes all the other packages to do it
[08:19] <juliank> but can't validate those assumptions really
[08:21] <juliank> Presumably we should mark ubuntu-desktop-minimal as Protected: yes so that apt treats it like Essential when it is installed and doesn't allow removing it
[08:23] <juliank> I still believe apt should not be suggesting removals at all unless caused by Conflicts+Replaces but that's a different more complex topic
[08:25] <juliank> There's a bit of a catch-22, apt remove <meta package> removes the meta package and keeps dependencies automatically installed (they'll be up for autoremoval), whereas removing a metapackage due to dependency conflicts will result in the dependencies inherting the manual bit from the metapackage
[08:26] <juliank> Oh I believe that this is in fact a regression from bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python3.10/+bug/1990586
[08:26] -ubottu:#ubuntu-desktop- Launchpad bug 1990586 in python3.10 (Ubuntu) "22.04: python3* mismatched phasing breaks dist-upgrades" [Critical, Fix Released]
[08:36] <juliank> Now I think I have a fix for apt dist-upgrade
[08:36] <juliank> I just need to write a test case
[08:37] <juliank> So what the fix for the other bug did was: (1) mark phased updates as kept back (2) do normal upgrade (3) mark for keep back again (4) resolve by any means necessary
[08:37] <juliank> now: (1) do normal upgrade (2) resolve by any means necessary (3) revert anything dependending on phasing
[08:41] <juliank> It regresses another issue
[08:47] <juliank> Oh this also implies that held packages can cause removals rather than held back upgrades
[08:55] <juliank> phased updates are rocket surgery, lol
[09:30] <juliank> So if anyone sees to see the effort it took, the fix for this is in https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/-/merge_requests/299
[09:30] -ubottu:#ubuntu-desktop- Merge 299 in apt-team/apt "Revert phased updates using keeps only" [Opened]
[09:34] <laney> good work juliank
[09:55] <juliank> thanks laney
[09:56] <seb128> juliank, thanks for investigating and providing us the details!
[09:59] <juliank> seb128: So what this means if there's a gnome-shell+mutter SRU in the next 3 weeks or so (while apt update rolls out), we must make sure we don't release gnome-shell before mutter is fully phased
[10:00] <seb128> right, that's something you should probably mention to the SRU team on #ubuntu-release
[10:00] <juliank> it's probably something that needs to go into a gnome-shell SRU bug, if any
[10:00] <juliank> I don't think SRU team has a notes document :D
[10:13] <seb128> having them aware that it is an issue helps though
[10:28] <juliank> seb128: I have notified. I now have also noticed that the same issue happens if you mark mutter for hold, that also causes gnome-shell to be removed, sigh. Fixing that is near impossible as the holds are applied at a much earlier state and affect dependency resolution (apt will pick different solutions if something is on hold, e.g. b in x depends a|b  if a is held rather than keep back x)
[10:29] <juliank> I think ultimately I probably should go ahead with my plan to make the apt resolver dumber and not remove stuff due to broken depends
[11:19] <seb128> ack
[11:36] <jbicha> I added a warning to the open jammy gnome-shell SRU bug. btw I believe the SRU team does use a trello board to coordinate their work
[11:40] <ricotz> hello desktopers!
[11:44] <jbicha> good morning


[03:43] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[04:04] <lotuspsychje> pragmanticenigma found this bug for ltsupgrade:
[04:04] <lotuspsychje> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-menus/+bug/1766890
[04:22] <guiverc> thanks lotuspsychje (bug info..)
[04:22] <lotuspsychje> np guiverc seems thats what holding up..on different machines
[04:24] <guiverc> & on good side - fix released was marked ~6 hours ago..  :)
[04:27] <lotuspsychje> ah didnt notice that guiverc tnx
[04:27] <lotuspsychje> guiverc: lets keep an eye on upgrade windows today then
[04:33] <lotuspsychje> !info ubuntu-release-upgrader xenial
[04:34] <lotuspsychje> !info libc6 xenial
[04:34] <lotuspsychje> !info ubuntu-release-upgrader cosmic
[04:35] <lotuspsychje> hmm
[04:36] <lotuspsychje> bbl
[05:32] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: always a pain atheros & realtek
[05:32] <lotuspsychje> when are they gonna fix this working by default
[05:32] <lotuspsychje> default users shouldnt be poking at realtek gits right
[05:34] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/1769386 #8 got it working on my bug with a git
[06:09] <tomreyn> lotuspsychje: sorry, i missed this entirely
[06:09] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: dont sweat mate im used to idle
[06:13] <tomreyn> lotuspsychje: you should document what happens when you try to use the card
[06:14] <tomreyn> so far i think there are only variations of "does not work" on there. which it probably boild down toi, but it may help triaging this to know how it fails.
[06:14] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: like in a syslog tail?
[06:14] <tomreyn> whatever relevant log is on syslog or dmesg, yes
[06:14] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: problem is this happens on a customers box..i cant be there always
[06:14] <tomreyn> or try to bring it up manually and see what the result is
[06:15] <lotuspsychje> this is what i bugged it from customers box
[06:15] <lotuspsychje> hoping for a fix
[06:15] <lotuspsychje> next time ill be there ill run few more tests
[06:16] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: but this bug is really not the first on atheros and realtek...
[06:16] <tomreyn> lotuspsychje: definitely not ;)
[06:18] <lotuspsychje> but good idea tomreyn next bug i do remote, ill keep the tail open
[06:19] <tomreyn> lotuspsychje: it seems like this is a widespread issue, so it should not be too hard to get more information.
[06:19] <tomreyn> also , this seems to be a workaround: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1779817#19
[06:19] <lotuspsychje> lets c
[06:20] <tomreyn> actually there's only one saying it made it work, 2 saying it didnt
[06:21] <lotuspsychje> interesting find tomreyn
[06:21] <tomreyn> lotuspsychje: comment #39
[06:22] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: i reported the bug from customers xenial on Uname: Linux 4.13.0-39-generic x86_64
[06:22] <lotuspsychje> so lets assume realtek was working fine below kernel 4.13 and update broke it
[06:22] <tomreyn> xenial now has 4.15, too
[06:22] <tomreyn> for hwe
[06:22] <lotuspsychje> yeah but i reported it broken on 4.13
[06:22] <tomreyn> right
[06:23] <lotuspsychje> on clean install realtek worked find, cant recall wich kernel that was
[06:23] <tomreyn> it must be a regression :-/
[06:23] <lotuspsychje> fine
[06:23] <lotuspsychje> those realteks always work/not work on kernel versions and linux-firmware
[06:23] <tomreyn> you could downgrade the customer machone to 4.4 (GA kernel) if that's an option for them + you, until it's fixed
[06:24] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: i might do the bionic test also
[06:24] <lotuspsychje> got some new ideas now tomreyn tnx :p
[06:25] <tomreyn> note this kernel wont work with secure boot
[06:25] <tomreyn> but it could work on xenial, i guess
[06:25] <tomreyn> i'm sleepy, ttyl
[06:25] <lotuspsychje> okay mate sleep tight!
[06:25] <lotuspsychje> enjoy the breeze
[06:25] <tomreyn> :) will
[06:37] <ducasse> good morning
[08:52] <mwsb> JimBuntu: Not sure if you know of nfsplus but a somewhat well-known troll with nothing better to do with his time.
[08:53] <JimBuntu> Ah, I did not, thanks
[09:39] <BluesKaj> Hi folks
[09:58]  * BluesKaj tries to wake up, but it's too early...damn insomnia  :/
[10:00] <JimBuntu> BluesKaj, I woke up 5 hours ago, thanks to insomnia
[10:01] <BluesKaj> whoa JimBuntu, guess you'll be napping today :-)
[10:04] <BluesKaj> I don'r sleep in like I used to ...must be one of the signs of old age
[10:07] <BluesKaj> waiting for the coffee to kick in
[10:09] <lotuspsychje> hey BluesKaj
[10:09] <BluesKaj> hey lotuspsychje
[10:10] <lotuspsychje> coffee the black gold
[10:11] <BluesKaj> yup
[10:21] <BluesKaj> oh no, not another multiple monitor problem...fixing that is so hit and miss
[10:21] <TJ-> sounds more like multi-GPU
[10:23] <BluesKaj> assumed 2 gpus = 2 monitors
[10:32] <BluesKaj> assumed wrong, it's 5
[10:41] <TJ-> BluesKaj: can you recall where the per-user Xorg log is now? somewhere under $HOME isn't it? My system is still logging to /var/log/ but I've seen a few where it's in $HOME
[10:44] <BluesKaj> TJ-, still have Xorg.0.log in /var/log on 18.10 Cosmic
[10:44] <TJ-> hmmm I wonder under what circumstances its also under $HOME
[10:45] <BluesKaj> haven't heard of that
[10:53] <ducasse> TJ-: ~/.local/share/xorg i think
[10:56] <BluesKaj> Hi ducasse,  I don't have that path
[10:57] <TJ-> Thanks ducasse. any idea under what circumstances that happens? is it just for the gdm3/gnome desktop?
[10:58] <ducasse> BluesKaj: me neither, but i'm fairly sure that's it
[10:58] <TJ-> !paste
[10:58] <ducasse> aiui (and i might be wrong) it's used when x is run under your userid instead of root
[10:59] <BluesKaj> I'm receiving this notice when apt updating, should I be concerned?  (appstreamcli:4538): GLib-CRITICAL **: 06:51:35.352: g_atomic_ref_count_dec: assertion 'g_atomic_int_get (arc) > 0' failed
[11:00] <JimBuntu> BluesKaj, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/glib2.0/+bug/1785498
[11:01] <ducasse> BluesKaj: the appstream thing is only used to provide extra information to gnome software, i think
[11:02] <ducasse> at least that's the answer i was given when i asked about it
[11:02] <TJ-> ducasse: re: xorg - so probably thats the way gdm3 is configured in 18.04
[11:03] <BluesKaj> ok thanks  JimBuntu, ducasse ...seems not to affect my updates/upgrades, they still continue after the notice
[11:03] <TJ-> BluesKaj: ducasse I do wish programmers would handle those asserts as reports to the user as well, about what was being attempted
[11:11] <ducasse> TJ-: dunno, i still use lightdm. when this change was introduced i think it was due to systemd changes.
[11:16] <TJ-> yes, sounds about right
[11:18] <ducasse> there was a debian bug report on it, iirc
[11:19] <TJ-> makes sense to not run the server as root
[11:19] <ducasse> it does, sure
[15:31] <lotuspsychje> good morning tomreyn :p
[15:31] <tomreyn> lotuspsychje:  ;) been awake for a while
[15:31] <tomreyn> well, as much as you can be awake at 38°C
[15:32] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: a users from this morning asked for you, told him you was afk, and he went for rebooting
[15:32] <lotuspsychje> didnt get more feedback from him
[15:32] <tomreyn> uh oh ;)
[15:32] <lotuspsychje> fre..something
[15:32] <tomreyn> got it, thanks
[15:32] <lotuspsychje> kk
[15:32] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: here it cooled a bit today
[15:33] <tomreyn> nice! i should have a thunderstorm in an hour, too
[15:34] <lotuspsychje> cool
[15:35] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: spain & portugal 40-45c
[15:35] <lotuspsychje> were on the good side :p
[15:38] <tomreyn> omg, i'd just die
[15:39] <tomreyn> this bottom left red blobl is my only hope right now http://i.imgur.com/N1Pezzd.png
[15:42] <lotuspsychje> nice
[15:43] <TJ-> here it comes! just hitting me now, rain that is
[15:43] <TJ-> sat outside with PC
[15:44] <lotuspsychje> nice
[15:46] <tomreyn> hopefulyl your pc didnt get hit
[15:47] <lotuspsychje> hey blackflow
[15:51] <TJ-> I'm under the inside-out room :)
[16:29] <hggdh> TJ-: will look for erge, just read it on -ops
[16:39] <TJ-> hggdh: oh, that was hours ago :)
[16:39] <lotuspsychje> what do you guys think of adding this to !ppapurge ?
[16:39] <lotuspsychje> https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-list-and-remove-ppa-repository-on-ubuntu-18-04-bionic-beaver-linux
[16:40] <hggdh> TJ-: yes, I know... sorry. Just wanted you to know it was not a waste of time to report the user
[16:42] <hggdh> lotuspsychje: nice
[16:43] <lotuspsychje> hggdh: i found linuxconfig a very decent tut site
[16:43] <hggdh> (although there is one word in the page that is coloured green/blue that I almost cannot read)
[16:43] <TJ-> hggdh: ahhh, thanks
[16:43] <lotuspsychje> and as more users would start using bionic..
[16:43] <hggdh> yes
[16:43] <lotuspsychje> hggdh: wich word?
[16:44] <TJ-> the green one :p
[16:44] <TJ-> or should i say , the invisible one?
[16:44] <hggdh> actually, all the green ones :-)
[16:44] <tomreyn> there are three: java, master-daily, PPA
[16:44] <lotuspsychje> ah
[16:45] <lotuspsychje> its less visible indeed
[16:46] <tomreyn> i think the guide is sound, just the 'gui way' for removal lacks explanation on how to identify + remove the repo gpg signing key
[16:48] <tomreyn> Better than the current, though: <reply>To disable a PPA from your sources and revert your packages back to default Ubuntu packages, install ppa-purge and use the command: « sudo ppa-purge ppa:<repository-name>/<subdirectory> » – For more information, see http://www.webupd8.org/2009/12/remove-ppa-repositories-via-command.html
[16:48] <lotuspsychje> yeah the webupd8 is flaky
[16:48] <lotuspsychje> but would the linuxconfig one, work on xenial aswell?
[16:49] <lotuspsychje> cause we still got 2 years xenial boxes
[16:49] <tomreyn> this hasn't changes since 14.04 i think
[16:49] <lotuspsychje> kk
[16:50] <tomreyn> so, yes, works on xenial
[16:51] <lotuspsychje> cool
[16:52] <lotuspsychje> but no gpg heh
[16:55] <tomreyn> oh ppa-purge is also not mentioned, that's actually a reason to look for something better, or write it, if you can, somewhere, just like on a wiki which no one can access to.
[16:56] <lotuspsychje> yeah, cause we need that trigger alot
[16:59] <tomreyn> the proper solution would be to add functionality (and a --switch) to apt-add-repostory to purge packages (or package versions) installed from the repository to be removed, like ppa-purge does it.
[16:59] <daftykins> the irony about ppa-purge is you used to have to install it from a PPA
[16:59] <daftykins> >:D
[17:00] <lotuspsychje> !info ppa-purge
[17:00] <lotuspsychje> yayy
[17:00] <daftykins> ah har :>
[17:01] <tomreyn> :) i think it was never that welcome, since it's a bash, not a python script, thus not using the python apt classes as all the other tools do, and since ti was not complete / reliable for a long time. a community contributed tool.
[17:01] <daftykins> ah i see
[17:02] <tomreyn> (i'm guessing a lot there)
[17:04] <TJ-> tomreyn: apt-add-repository has a --remove option
[17:04] <TJ-> tomreyn: doesn't that also purge packets?
[17:04] <TJ-> ahhh, no, I see it doesn't
[17:11] <tomreyn> right
[21:27] <tomreyn> oerheks: fwupd is the firmware updating daemon - just in case oyu're not aware
[21:27] <tomreyn> i dont know how it retrieves its updates, this may depend on the vendor
[21:32] <oerheks> yes, i am looking and reading, maybe a source in his lists, or a cronjob..
[21:53] <tomreyn> hope you don't mind me taking over... i know very little about it, too, though.
[21:55] <daftykins> what's getting updated? :) i think only my toaster is safe from me, at this point
[21:58] <oerheks> interesting indeed, http://termbin.com/pivl
[22:01] <daftykins> hmm gigabyte
[22:01] <daftykins> they want to flash their mobo?
[22:07] <oerheks> a long term wish: a tool that updates firmware, even the bios
[22:08] <oerheks> i am learning tonight
[22:08] <daftykins> is that what's happening? someone wants to update the BIOS on their mobo? because that one has a built-in tool...
[22:08] <daftykins> i can only imagine i have gotten the situation wrong :)
[22:10] <oerheks> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/latest/%23ubuntu.html
[22:10] <oerheks> up to 10 min ago, see the end
[22:10] <daftykins> ty
[22:14] <daftykins> makes no sense why anyone should pursue a Linux based update method when a motherboard has native support free from an OS
[22:19] <oerheks> hmm
[22:19] <oerheks> can uefi be updated from ;linux when a password is set?
[22:20] <oerheks> tom ^
[22:21] <tomreyn> oerheks: i dont know
[22:22] <tomreyn> chances are you'd either need to enter it then, or it will just fail
[22:22] <daftykins> why would you take the risk?
[22:22] <tomreyn> which risk?
[22:23] <tomreyn> (i'm asking since there could be multiple, not because i dont see one)
[22:23] <daftykins> i might have gotten the wrong impression still, but are you talking with that guy about using a Linux based app to update his gigabyte motherboard BIOS?
[22:24] <oerheks> besides risc, i would not allow linux to do that, i find it interesting, but want to know the cuplit users can encounter, so i was thinking about protected firmware like uefi
[22:24] <tomreyn> daftykins: we're talking about the person who reported that their system showed this error message https://i.imgur.com/xKCMsQE.png and i think they had a gigabyte mainboard.
[22:24] <tomreyn> risc or risk :)
[22:24] <daftykins> ah ok so it's unrelated, but for some reason a fwupd thing is running o0
[22:25] <tomreyn> oerheks: uefi has a generic firmware update staging mechanism, so it's entirely possible to design this safely.
[22:25] <tomreyn> the actual update is then only carried out on reboot
[22:26] <tomreyn> also firmwares are almost always signed or at least checksummed nowadays.
[22:27] <oerheks> i am reading https://fwupd.org/users now
[22:27] <daftykins> mmm when my friend was helping me make that modified BIOS, i had to bypass that
[22:27] <tomreyn> daftykins: fwupd and fwupdate\* are installed by default on 18.04.
[22:27] <oerheks> new stuff indeed
[22:28] <tomreyn> last time i read about it, fwupd was considered a stillbirth
[22:28] <daftykins> figures Canonical are touching it then ;D
[22:29] <tomreyn> it's great to have this generic, vendor independant framework, for this purpose. but having this doesn't automatically make cvendors support it.
[22:29] <tomreyn> pressure on them is rising during the past and future years, luckily, though.
[22:30] <daftykins> given how many people use Linux? goodness no :P
[22:30] <oerheks> lot of work to do https://fwupd.org/vendorlist
[22:30] <tomreyn> proprietary firmwares for things as central as the mainbord you acquired should be a no go.
[22:30] <daftykins> if i were at Asus i'd just laugh
[22:31] <tomreyn> daftykins: i doubt fwupd is strictly linux dependant. well the imlementation probably is, but i'm sure it could be adapted for other OS.
[22:32] <tomreyn> wow, this list has grown
[22:32] <daftykins> i'll stick to native tools :D
[22:32] <tomreyn> last time i looked at it i think it had 3 records
[22:33] <tomreyn> well those are native tools. they use the mechanism uefi offers for staging FW updates
[22:33] <tomreyn> for mainboard that is
[22:33] <tomreyn> not sure about other devices
[22:34] <daftykins> quite like my fancy modern Asus mobos being able to read the files straight off even NTFS HDDs to update from
[22:36] <tomreyn> https://lwn.net/Articles/761860/
[22:38] <tomreyn> looks like hey may actuall make it happen, that'd be awesome.
[22:44] <daftykins> is there a rule that all open source related sites have to appear as if from the 90s? :)
[22:49] <pauljw> they're probably all running on 90s servers
[22:49] <daftykins> xD
[22:59] <tomreyn> © R.M.S. web design
[23:00] <tsimonq2> Uhm... ubuntu.com is kinda open source related and it looks *beautiful*
[23:00] <tsimonq2> So does Lubuntu.me. ;)
[23:00] <daftykins> quiet you! ;D
[23:13] <pauljw> RMS - another topic that gives me a headache.  if he would have spend a tenth of the effort that he has expended on dissertations re: why we should call linux gnulinux, writing code, he may actually have a working Hurd kernel.  30yrs later...
[23:15] <daftykins> he's too busy trying to find a parrot and asking to borrow other peoples phones so he doesn't have to touch closed source ;D
[23:15] <pauljw> heheh
[23:16] <oerheks> i am fighting the image of an eating-toenail-guy
[23:16] <pauljw> lol
[23:20] <pragmaticenigma> who is RMS pauljw ?
[23:20] <tomreyn> IMO he's > current U.S. president. a mean way to kill a discussion, i know.,
[23:21] <tomreyn> stallman, the Gnu behind the GNU
[23:22] <pragmaticenigma> that's what I thought... the RM threw me
[23:23] <pragmaticenigma> I think most OpenSource project sites look 90s is because that's when the project started and most devs are trying to write software, not make a pretty website
[23:23] <pragmaticenigma> much better tools for content management today that reduce the repetiveness of web develpement of yesteryear
[23:23] <pragmaticenigma> I think those kids today had no idea, we used to have to code each page by hand, top to bottom
[23:23] <pragmaticenigma> and to make a style change meant editing every single page on the site
[23:24] <pragmaticenigma> now how stallman thinks usign a land line is safe, when most of the MA-Bell was all closed source
[23:27] <daftykins> doubt they've all been online that long
[23:28] <pragmaticenigma> oh... it's fun when a new hire comes out of college and gets a real taste of supporting legacy applications
[23:28] <pragmaticenigma> WebForms for life!!!
[23:32] <oerheks> grinn https://me.me/i/a-ggag-com-1988-picard-introduces-2002-bill-gates-introduces-8788255
[23:33] <pragmaticenigma> far as stallman goes ... it's true that we really shouldn't lump it as Linux... since Linux is only the kernel... but how does one give a name to a bunch of things with that as a common thread
[23:34] <daftykins> well just to name what you're running you have to have a lengthy conversation and also cover the stupid pretentious pronunciations :<
[23:35] <pauljw> only the kernel, which explains why after 30yrs he still can't manage to get a working one.
[23:37] <pragmaticenigma> pauljw: stallman doesn't have anything to do with linux kernel... that's Torvalds baby
[23:37] <pragmaticenigma> stallman => userspace, torvalds => systemspace
[23:40] <daftykins> i believe pauljw was talking about Hurd?
[23:40] <daftykins> can't say i'm familiar
[23:40] <pauljw> i know whose baby it is, and that's what is driving little Ricky crazy.  the GNU project which is RMS's is still trying to get the Hurd kernel to run.
[23:49] <tomreyn> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWZtcxWiJjE
[23:49] <tomreyn> gnu hurd release date poll
[23:51] <daftykins> i Hurd you like delays
[23:52] <tomreyn> sure, i live in berlin, we love delays.
[23:52] <daftykins> :D
[23:52] <tomreyn> you might have heard about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport
[23:53] <tomreyn> i suspect HURD will release first
[23:56] <daftykins> hmm nope
[23:57] <pauljw> no way...