[15:36] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Cadence does not seem to do firewire checking... basically if jack doesn't start, Cadence directs the user to look in the jack log file.
[15:38] <OvenWerks> Cadence does the set capture and then set playback kind of thing. I expect controls _never_ to do such a thing :)
[15:41] <OvenWerks> So I will add firewire as a backend (maybe with "Try alsa first" or something)
[15:42] <OvenWerks> The stuff I need to do for the FW backend is mostly the same as what I need to do for any none alsa backend
[15:45] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Okay, that makes sense. I didn't think Cadence did much with firewire, but figured you'd find something if it existed, which, as you discovered, it does not.
[15:46] <Eickmeyer> But, yeah, setting capture and playback is kinda.. odd.
[15:49] <OvenWerks> setting capture/playback is from internal/older devices that are like hw:0,0 is playback and hw:0,1 is record, btoh with the same clock
[15:49] <Eickmeyer> Oh, okay.
[15:49] <OvenWerks> it does not apply to multi channel cards for the most part.
[15:50] <OvenWerks> my opinion is that if they can be both opened at the same time, our normal bridging policy still works.
[15:52] <OvenWerks> For FW I will assume that there is only one device and so the device will be fixed to hw:0 only
[15:52] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, that makes sense.
[15:53] <Eickmeyer> That's a good assumption. So, from what I'm understanding, FW has to be bound in the same way as internal hardware?
[15:54] <OvenWerks> Cadence is trying to cover everything including macos and windows as well as every linux out there. The elif lines are long ...
[15:54] <Eickmeyer> Sheesh
[15:54] <Eickmeyer> But, yeah, he does build it for Windows and MacOS.
[15:54] <Eickmeyer> Though, not Cadence itself, just the other tools.
[15:55] <OvenWerks> the FW driver has similar hardware nameing to alsa
[15:55] <Eickmeyer> RE: FW: If that's the case, if they hotplug a FW device, it won't show up in -controls if it's already running. Might need a "refresh hardware" button.
[15:55] <OvenWerks> This makes sense because the fw kernel drivers were originally written for a FW-jack use
[15:56] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we already do that for alsa :)
[15:56] <Eickmeyer> Oh, okay, then we should be good.
[15:57] <OvenWerks> but in this case, using fw driver relies on the user having set thing up the right way already.
[15:58] <OvenWerks>  so we accept fw as a driver, set device to hw:0 and go
[15:58] <OvenWerks> the user will not be able to change the device or set up a hotplug USB master device as both of those boxes will be disabled
[15:59] <OvenWerks> hot pluggin USB device as non-master is still ok and adding alsa devices is also ok.
[16:00] <Eickmeyer> So, we're talking FW must be master, basically.
[16:00] <OvenWerks> yes, there is no bridge from fw to jack.
[16:02] <Eickmeyer> Okay, as long as the user knows that, we're good.
[16:04] <OvenWerks> I am looking at the module blacklisting to see if we can just read that and get a sense what the user's setup is.
[18:50]  * OvenWerks wonders if looking to see if snd-firewire-lib is loaded would cover all alsa fw modules.
[18:52] <Eickmeyer> Decent theory.
[18:52] <OvenWerks> or if checking for raw1394 would be proof the FW drivers are in place. /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist-firewire.conf has this in it.
[18:53]  * OvenWerks wishes he had a FW device to try it out on.
[18:53] <OvenWerks> looking at: https://www.alsa-project.org/wiki/ALSA_firewire_stack
[18:55] <Eickmeyer> So, does that mean it's already in the stack?
[18:55] <OvenWerks> no that means it is prevented from loading.
[18:55] <Eickmeyer> Oh, duh.
[18:56] <OvenWerks> the direct fw drivers for jack have to be prevented from loading if alsa is to work... and the alsa modules have to be prevented from loading if the raw fw for jack is to be used.
[18:56] <Eickmeyer> So, the raw1394 is blacklisted. Meaning, that the kernel doesn't have direct access to fw devices?
[18:56] <Eickmeyer> You just answered my question.
[18:57] <Eickmeyer> Is there a way to make a switch or checkbox in -controls to facilitate that module?
[18:57]  * Eickmeyer is spitballing
[18:58] <OvenWerks> That is what I am thinking... but I am not willing to try that unless I A) have a device to play with or B) we have someone I can talk to and try things with who has one.
[18:58]  * OvenWerks doesn't really care which
[19:00] <OvenWerks> In some ways I would prefer a FW unit that is supported both ways over one that requires the old way, but I think it is ok to assume that leaving thing stock is going to work for whatever works with alsa.
[19:01] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I would tend to keep two copies of blacklist-firewire.conf in /usr/share/ubuntustudio or /usr/share/ubuntustudio-controls that can be linked to depending on use.
[19:02] <OvenWerks> (or copied either way)
[19:03] <OvenWerks> This is a change that should be done on the system tab because it is a system change that needs root priv. and would have to be done by the same back end as rt setup and would require a reboot to work anyway.
[19:05]  * OvenWerks notes that some of this stuff may be done from initrd.img and so require copying rather than ln -s
[19:05] <OvenWerks> So we may need to run update-grub as well.
[19:05] <Eickmeyer> That's crazy territory.
[19:06] <OvenWerks> no not update grub, but the one that rewrite initrd
[19:06] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's what I meant.
[19:06] <Eickmeyer> Oh.
[19:06] <Eickmeyer> Um...
[19:06] <Eickmeyer> update-initramfs
[19:07] <OvenWerks> It would probably be better for us to do that than try to write a document.
[19:08] <Eickmeyer> If we can incorporate something into -controls rather than write a document, I'm all for it. The less work the user has to do the better. "Teach a man to fish" as they say.
[19:09] <Eickmeyer> The command is actually "update-initramfs -u" otherwise it will throw an error.
[19:09] <OvenWerks> details...
[19:10] <Eickmeyer> hehehe
[19:10] <OvenWerks> The big detail is access to a box.
[19:13] <Eickmeyer> You mentioned something about a guy with a boat anchor?
[19:13] <OvenWerks> I think if I were to create a script (in bash) to switch to the old drivers and recreate the initramfs with the ability to undo the same... I may be able to send it that guy to test.
[19:13] <OvenWerks> I suspect he would be happier getting his box to work over giving to someone else who makes it work for themselves
[19:14] <Eickmeyer> Probably.
[19:14] <OvenWerks> The USB replacement is $500ish and I think the one he has cost closer to $1000
[19:16] <Eickmeyer> Considering the price of equivalent tech gets cheaper with time...
[19:17] <OvenWerks> I acn't aford to buy it, Shipping I could probably handle though. I would have to acquire a pcie (or pci) card with FW ports which start at $21
[19:20] <Eickmeyer> Not hard to find the pci cards. I had one I wasn't using a few years ago.
[19:20] <OvenWerks> I thought my laptop had a port (10 year old Dell) but I checked and couldn't find it
[19:21] <OvenWerks> (its slow anyway)
[19:21] <Eickmeyer> I had an old Toshiba laptop that had a PCMCIA slot for which I bought a FW card.
[19:22] <Eickmeyer> That was about 13-14 years ago.
[19:22] <OvenWerks> I would prefer pcie as the next computer I buy may not have pci slots. It was not easy to find a MB with 3 PCI slots a few years ago when I got this one.
[19:22] <Eickmeyer> I'm sure Amazon has something for cheap.
[19:23] <OvenWerks> If I had the FW box and a PCIe card it would mean I wuld still have a working audio inteface if I can't find a slot for my delt66
[19:23] <OvenWerks> Canadian dollars are only 74.9% of US
[19:24] <OvenWerks> so $21 is like $15
[19:24] <Eickmeyer> Yeah. I just found something for $19US.
[19:24] <Eickmeyer> Now one for 17 US.
[19:25] <Eickmeyer> So, relatively inexpensive, probably because the peripheral support just isn't what it used to be.
[19:25] <OvenWerks> I use two PCI cards right now, The Delt66 and an AudioPCI for MIDI
[19:26] <OvenWerks> I was able to avoid the pci slot that shares irq with 5 other bits
[19:27] <OvenWerks> I was also able to find a MB with midi din for both keyboard and mouse :)
[19:28] <Eickmeyer> I just have my one USB audio interface and one USB MIDI controller.
[19:30] <Eickmeyer> I do have a pair of studio monitor speakers on the way. Going to use those to demo Ubuntu Studio at Linux Fest Northwest later this month.
[19:34] <OvenWerks> cool.
[20:24] <OvenWerks> it looks like raw1394 is the module to look for, if it has not been loaded at boot time, I can assume there is not FW device.
[20:31] <Eickmeyer> So unblacklist and modprobe?
[20:36] <OvenWerks> Anyway, I sent an email to Rick (I think)
[20:36] <OvenWerks> unload whatever alsa has loaded first
[20:37] <OvenWerks> I don't know if it can be done realtime or needs a reboot.
[20:41] <Eickmeyer> If modprobe is involved, no reboot needed.
[20:43] <OvenWerks> ya, in this case it is knowing which all modules to unload first


[12:23] <Welshy-Rob> Hello, my ubuntu (10.10)  seems to be running really slowly on my system, i can only run about two programs at once and it still manages to crash now this could be because i have a pretty poor pc but the previous version of ubuntu used to run so much faster! is there anything you can suggest i do?
[12:30] <markjones_> try xubuntu
[12:32] <Welshy-Rob> markjones, how?
[12:33] <markjones> burn a CD? ;)
[12:35] <Welshy-Rob> sweet
[12:36] <markjones> Welshy-Rob, sorry, get Lubuntu
[12:40] <Welshy-Rob> markjones, okayy thnx
[12:40] <arthurL> Or just install a different desktop environment
[12:41] <arthurL> 10.10 runs that Unity malarky, right?
[12:41] <arthurL> It'll be rather slow since it's new and being worked on
[12:42] <Welshy-Rob> ah okay, is there a way i can somehow keep my data and just over write the kernal with a different one?
[12:42] <Welshy-Rob> or will i have to format?
[12:43] <arthurL> You can compile your own kernel and use that without losing any data providing you do it right
[12:43] <arthurL> I have never done it myself so I wouldn't know how to go about doing that
[12:43] <arthurL> but Google might :3
[12:43] <Welshy-Rob> haha okay cool :)
[12:44] <Welshy-Rob> really cant be asked to go through the whole backing up and formatting xD
[12:44] <arthurL> I'd backup anyway since there's plenty of room for error
[12:45] <arthurL> The minimum reqs for Ubuntu seem to keep increasing with each new version so if your machine is lacking - per se - I'd consider a different distro like Arch or Gentoo. They're quite advanced but worth learning about.
[12:47] <Welshy-Rob> okayy sounds good, i have no where to backup to though haha my disks are practically bursting
[12:48] <arthurL> In that case, it's down to you as to whether or not you go through with this without a backup ;)
[13:27] <brobostigon> afternoonings everyone.
[20:10] <beds> iawn
[21:41]  * brobostigon-g1 is ircing from the pub


[07:12] <Priyantha> hi, I just uploaded by accident a package :o
[07:13] <Priyantha> maybe someone can delete it or something?
[07:13] <Priyantha> I tried to upload something to my personal ppa, but forgot to add the "ppa:%ppa-name" thing in front :$
[07:19] <didrocks> is it a new package?
[07:20] <didrocks> (and what's your launchpad id?)
[07:36] <Priyantha> well I got already an 'automated' mail I think from archive ;)
[07:36] <Priyantha> that is was rejected
[07:36] <Priyantha> so no harm done I supose :)
[07:38] <didrocks> yeah ;)
[07:46] <Priyantha> thanks ;)
[09:44] <jamespage> doko: if you're around could you prod the binary only movements to main as a result of my last ceph upload?
[10:16] <doko> jamespage: done
[10:22] <jamespage> doko: thankyou!
[10:22] <jamespage> we will get py2 out of main!
[10:22] <jamespage> doko: I know we still need to sort out swift for openstack but do you have a report on what's holding py2 in main still?
[10:24] <doko> well, samba still needs to be converted ... I should start that again
[10:30] <tjaalton> talloc.. :P
[10:33] <cpaelzer> doko: I looked (too much) deeper into the kopanocore issue you asked about
[10:33] <cpaelzer> doko: TL;DR https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=907396
[10:34] <cpaelzer> doko: I'd think we could just wait for that to be released and then sync it?
[10:34] <cpaelzer> you had two minor changes on your upload, should we suggest them to Debian?
[10:34] <cpaelzer> if interested in more details may way too ling trip through the test issues can be found in bug 1806005
[10:36] <doko> tjaalton: it's more than that :-/
[10:36] <doko> cpaelzer: yes we can wait, I removed from the release pocket
[10:37] <cpaelzer> I saw that it was only in propsoed atm
[10:37] <tjaalton> doko: sure, but would start with it iirc
[10:37] <cpaelzer> doko: being removed isn't bug 1804393 done then?
[10:37] <cpaelzer> also demote reads (to me) like main->universe but it is universe anyway
[10:38] <doko> tjaalton: I already have those in my samba ppa
[10:39] <tjaalton> cool
[10:40] <cpaelzer> doko: I might miss some context but I know ahasenack is working at a samba merge
[10:41] <ahasenack> hm?
[10:41] <cpaelzer> ahasenack: hiho
[10:41] <doko> yes, I think he knows about that repo?
[10:41] <ahasenack> that old samba49?
[10:41] <cpaelzer> not sure ahasenack - I just read "samba ppa" above and wondered if there is any collision
[10:41] <ahasenack> I uploaded a new 4.9 merge from debian to disco
[10:42] <ahasenack> it's stuck right now because of freeipa tests, that trigger what I think is a bug
[10:42] <ahasenack> if winbind is running, smbd won't start (!)
[10:42] <tjaalton> ahasenack: freeipa tests shouldn't block
[10:42] <tjaalton> last I checked
[10:42] <ahasenack> they are part of the dependent tests
[10:43] <ahasenack> and the only ones failing
[10:43] <ahasenack> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html#samba
[10:44] <tjaalton> oh, it fails during install
[10:44] <ahasenack> yes, smbd fails to restart if winbind is running, I saw that last night and intend to troubleshoot it today
[11:02] <ahasenack> tjaalton: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=909465
[11:08] <tjaalton> ah, been there for a while already..
[11:09] <ahasenack> I'm reading some mailing list threads
[11:17] <ahasenack> tjaalton: do you know what pulled in winbind in the freeipa test? I thought freeipa didn't need winbind, and only used sssd
[11:17] <ahasenack> hmm, freeipa-server-trust-ad pulls in winbind
[11:18] <tjaalton> just a package dep
[11:19] <tjaalton> not used in the install test
[11:19] <ahasenack> right, a plan B is forming in my head.
[11:19] <ahasenack> maybe plan Z
[11:19] <ahasenack> the threads in samba@ all died
[14:59] <jamespage> doko: any chance you could ack the vaultlocker backport binary in the bionic NEW queue for me?  I can drop a whole load of PPA usage from some of our deployment tooling for openstack once that's published


[00:50] <Kris_away> I currently have a game client written in OpenGL 2.1+, is there an easy way to develop for ES 2.0 on desktop and simulate the mobile environment like android and ios can? Ideally I'd like to have a single-source game, as in es2 for desktop and mobile, it's not a graphically intensive game.
[09:10] <chars> hello
[15:27] <mefrio> hi...is USC for mobile being developed?


[01:39] <mdeslaur> pitti: we have a kernel ABI mismatch: http://paste.ubuntu.com/756659/
[01:39] <mdeslaur> pitti: seems linux-ports-meta on lucid didn't get pushed
[01:40] <mdeslaur> jjohansen: ^
[01:40] <jjohansen> mdeslaur: ?
[01:41] <jjohansen> mdeslaur: as in can you point me at what I need to do
[01:41] <mdeslaur> jjohansen: linux-ports-meta on lucid is at ABI 35, but linux is at ABI 36
[01:42] <jjohansen> mdeslaur: right I caught that
[01:44] <mdeslaur> jjohansen: I usually tell pitti, the linux-ports-meta package needs to be pushed to updates also
[01:45] <jjohansen> mdeslaur: ah, so when we get the breakage email we need to ping piti
[01:46] <micahg> mdeslaur: jjohansen: he'll be around in ~3 hrs
[01:46] <jjohansen> micahg: hrmm, he starts early if its only 3 hrs
[01:46] <micahg> jjohansen: 6AM :)
[01:47] <jjohansen> micahg: but thats like bedtime
[01:47] <micahg> jjohansen: I know what you mean :)
[01:54] <slangasek> mdeslaur, jjohansen: linux-ports-meta copied; SpamapS was driving those and trying to work out whether linux-ports-meta was among the ones supposed to be copied, I guess we have the answer now :)
[01:55] <micahg> slangasek: ah, wasn't sure if you were around or not, so I didn't want to ping you
[04:15] <infinity> pitti: We stole celbalrai.buildd as a livefs builder, so it no longer shows up on the /builders/ page.  You might want to suck the ddebs down from it by hand at some point, since I suspect your scraper script won't find it.
[04:20] <mdeslaur> slangasek: thanks!
[05:01] <pitti> Good morning
[05:02] <pitti> infinity: we have 60 GB now on macquarie, I'll try whether that's sufficient now
[05:02] <pitti> ogasawara: no, when we lift the freeze, it's fine to upload
[05:02] <pitti> ogasawara: we usually do that at a time when it's clear that we won't respin any more, so no reason to further hold up development
[05:02] <pitti> skaet: ^
[05:03] <pitti> jdstrand: status.u.c. == cranberry.canonical.com
[05:04] <pitti> jdstrand: you can get the db from http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-precise.db
[05:06] <pitti> mdeslaur, jdstrand: seems someone already copied linux-ports-meta to -updates; I copied it to -security as well now
[05:27] <pitti> infinity: celbalrai ddebs salvaged
[05:28] <infinity> pitti: Danke.
[05:29] <infinity> lamont: You can rm -rf ~buildd/public_html/ddebs/* on celbalrai, BTW.  pitti's harvested them all.
[06:43] <pitti> stgraber: FYI, edubuntu DVD daily build should be fixed now, I uploaded a new nautilusy-python which ports the remaining stuff to GI
[06:52] <pitti> mdeslaur, jjohansen, jdstrand: meh, whoever copied that linux-ports-meta/linux to -updates yesterday night made a pretty big mess out of it :(
[06:52] <pitti> nothign on the tracking bug either; cleaning up now
[08:28] <jibel> pitti, bug 897680 is back on a1
[08:28] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 897680 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) (and 1 other project) "Precise Desktop 64Bit: libc6 fails to install if "install 3rd party software" is selected (affects: 8) (dups: 7) (heat: 68)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/897680
[08:29] <pitti> jibel: ah, thanks
[08:29] <jjohansen> pitti: :(, thanks for cleaning it up.
[08:29] <pitti> jibel: I'll investigate this today then
[11:40] <jdstrand> pitti: re db> excellent, thanks! :)
[11:42] <jdstrand> pitti: thanks for the kernel cleanup. if you find out who did it, can you point them to me? (I'd like to see if find-bin-overrides is working correctly)
[11:44] <pitti> there's no logging for this unfortunately
[11:50] <jdstrand> pitti: btw, are you using ubuntu-precise.db for your reports? (I would like to, and if you already know the db schema, that could be helpful :)
[11:51] <pitti> jdstrand: "my" reports?
[11:51] <pitti> jdstrand: no, I just use the status.u.c. date
[11:51] <pitti> jdstrand: the schema is in the source, lp:launchpad-work-items-tracker
[11:51] <jdstrand> pitti: I thought we broke some stuff down by member
[11:52] <jdstrand> pitti: oh, excellent-- for some reason I was thinking this raw data on status was different from lp:launchpad-work-items-tracker
[11:52] <jdstrand> pitti: great, that is all I need :)
[12:06] <jdstrand> whoa, I've never seen this before:
[12:06] <jdstrand>  3448803 | X- | pxe-kexec            | 0.2.4-1              | 1 hour 30 minutes
[12:06] <jdstrand> 	 | * pxe-kexec/0.2.4-1 Component: universe Section: None
[12:06] <jdstrand> pitti: what does the 'X' mean?
[12:07] <jdstrand> sync
[12:07] <jdstrand> interesting, I never noticed that before
[12:08] <jdstrand> pitti: nm
[12:56] <pitti> jdstrand: ah, I never saw that either, thanks; good to know
[13:17] <mvo> hi, I prepared backports of apt/python-apt for lucid-backports, this will be used by the release upgrader plus it seems useful for users using apt-get dist-ugprade. any objections about the general approach (we talked briefly about it at uds)
[13:31] <jibel> mvo, would it be possible to backport apt-clone to lucid or publish it to a PPA. I'd like to send a call for testing after alpha2 to collect lucid clones and try to upgrade them.
[13:32] <mvo> jibel: oh, indeed! i will prepare that as well
[13:32] <jibel> mvo, fantastic, thanks!
[14:29] <stgraber> pitti: thanks
[14:30] <pitti> stgraber: err, thank you, too! (but for what?)
[14:30] <stgraber> pitti: 06:43 < pitti> stgraber: FYI, edubuntu DVD daily build should be fixed now, I uploaded a new nautilusy-python which ports the remaining stuff to GI
[14:30] <pitti> ah, right; sorry, already fell out of my brain :)
[14:31]  * pitti likes "nautilusy"
[14:37] <cjwatson> mvo: makes sense to me - that's what we've done in the past, isn't it?
[14:40] <mvo> cjwatson: the last time we (ab)used feisty-backports/debian-installer main, but I really would prefer to use the regular pocket this time as it seems cleaner and helps the manual upgraders
[14:43] <cjwatson> regular pocket?  you said lucid-backports above
[14:44] <cjwatson> oh, you mean you made it a udeb last time
[14:44] <cjwatson> I'm OK with it being in -backports but the backporters team ought to sign off on it I think since it's an exception to the usual rules for that pocket
[14:45]  * mvo nods
[14:46] <mvo> yeah, thats fair enough - indeed, last time it was a udeb, this time I would like it to be a proper deb
[15:09] <skaet> pitti, cjwatson.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MilestoneProcess - am reviewing, and the line pitti added (release-16) looks like its overlapping with (release-14) that cjwatson added.   Any issues with me consolidating and merging?  (or am I misunderstanding something)
[15:11] <pitti> skaet: hm, where do ou see the overlap? one is the conffile on nusakan, the other is the ISO tracker
[15:12] <skaet> pitti,  seems to me they're all related to getting the iso tracker back working with dailies.
[15:13]  * skaet agrees that they are on separate environements though.
[15:14] <pitti> skaet: I'm fine with merging them into one step
[15:15] <skaet> pitti, thnx.
[15:24] <skaet> pitti,  also trying to figure out how to clarify the unfreezing of the archive vs. announce going out.    In the steps archive does not unfreeze until after the announce goes out,  but I agree in practice for certain milestones its safe to unfreeze before, esp. for soft freezes.    However the checklist makes it explicit that the UpgradeTestingProcess is complete before the archive is unfrozen, and that's after the
[15:24] <skaet>  announce.   What are the other factors that should weigh in to when to unfreeze archive.   When its clear we won't be respinning,  seems to me to be what I'm seeing used.
[15:25] <skaet> ?
[15:35] <skaet> cjwatson, slangasek, ^ any thoughts about when safe to unfreeze?
[15:35] <cjwatson> I tend to think of it as we unfreeze once we're past point of no return
[15:36] <cjwatson> so once we've decided to release and are just pushing buttons
[15:36] <slangasek> yep
[15:39] <skaet> cjwatson, slangasek, pitti - ok,  will make some updates to reflect that.
[17:32] <mvo> jibel: apt-clone backport request is here https://bugs.launchpad.net/lucid-backports/+bug/899286
[17:32] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 899286 in lucid-backports "Please provide apt-clone backport (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New]
[17:32] <mvo> jibel: once I get approval from the backports team, that should be fine, I ported it over to python-central
[17:45] <mvo> cjwatson, slangasek: python-apt/apt backport request is written here https://bugs.launchpad.net/lucid-backports/+bug/899281 - feedback (as always) welcome!
[17:45] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 899281 in lucid-backports "Please provide apt/python-apt multiarch backports (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New]
[18:06] <micahg> mvo: shouldn't this go to -updates?
[18:13] <slangasek> mvo: ^^ same question as micahg; wasn't the plan to put these backports in as an SRU, to maximize mirroring and rely on the package names being different from anything in lucid to avoid them being incorrectly pulled into the system before the upgrader runs?
[18:14] <micahg> Bug #899286 makes sense as a backport, but it'll also need to go to {maverick-oneiric}-backports
[18:14] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 899286 in lucid-backports "Please provide apt-clone backport (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/899286
[20:29] <mvo> slangasek: sorry for the delay in answering. so we could make the package name different, but then python-apt would have to have a different prefix or a different import name for "apt" and "apt_{pkg,inst}" plus the locales would have to be renamed or put into a different prefix as well. possible, but it seems like the -backport is actually both simpler and more useful (as the current approach will be useful for people wanting to perform a ma
[20:29] <mvo> nual apt-get dist-upgrade as well).
[20:30] <mvo> micahg: apt-clone> the version for lucid should be fine for maverick too and for oneiric we can use the current precise version unaltered
[20:31] <broder> mvo: what micahg meant is that standard backport policies require backports to maverick, natty, and oneiric in addition to lucid
[20:31] <broder> it's an upgrade path thing
[20:31] <broder> but doing the dh_py2 -> dh_pycentral thing is fine - we tweak backports all the time to deal with toolchain changes
[20:32] <mvo> broder: thanks, I see. indeed
[20:40] <slangasek> mvo: oh.  we did discuss the -updates approach at UDS though, right, I didn't imagine that part?
[20:40] <slangasek> if it's simply not practical, then by all means, do what needs doing :)
[20:41] <mvo> slangasek: yes, we did :) let me think this through again, both approaches have some pros and cons and both will work, so in some sense its a good problem ;)
[20:43] <mvo> slangasek: the upgrade path that broder mentioned is actually a (big) con against the approach to provide a full backport of apt/python-apt, and a pro for the more targeted approach we discussed at uds
[20:43]  * mvo looks into this now
[20:44]  * slangasek nods


[05:06] <mborzecki> morning
[06:05] <zyga> Good morning
[06:05] <zyga> I will have to swap today
[06:06] <jamesh> hi zyga.  How was Montreal?
[06:06] <zyga> Too many things overlap (passport, doctor, another doctor)
[06:06] <zyga> jamesh: hello!
[06:06] <zyga> Very successful
[06:06] <zyga> Unbelievably so I would say
[06:07] <mborzecki> zyga: jamesh: hi
[06:07] <jamesh> that's good to hear
[06:08] <mborzecki> zyga: you're swapping today?
[06:08] <zyga> Yes
[06:08] <zyga> I have to
[06:09] <mborzecki> zyga: ack
[06:09] <zyga> jamesh: there are details on the forum
[06:09] <zyga> Mborzec mborzecki during last week we noticed that bash completion is broken on centos
[06:10] <zyga> No bug report yet because the principal centos user is from Australia and I believe has even more jet lag
[06:11] <mborzecki> zyga: hah ok, i can look into this
[06:12] <mborzecki> zyga: could have gone unnoticed, i'm using zsh usually and the cloud images don't come with bash completion installed
[06:12] <mborzecki> hmm but we have sprewa tests for this
[06:13] <zyga> Maybe is is not broken per se
[06:13] <zyga> Just not working something
[06:13] <zyga> Somehow
[06:13] <zyga> Worth just trying it out interactively
[06:14] <mborzecki> zyga: yeah, will do
[06:15] <zyga> I have some thoughts to share about other topics but I am too jet lagged now I
[06:17] <mborzecki> zyga: bash completion for snap command or snaps?
[06:22] <mborzecki> mvo: morning
[06:22] <mborzecki> btw. does completion ignore hidden flag of commands?
[06:23] <mvo> hey mborzecki !
[06:23] <mvo> mborzecki: idk, john probably does
[06:23] <mborzecki> mvo: try snap remo<tab><tab>
[06:23] <mvo> mborzecki: I just did a quick test - it does not afaict
[06:24] <mborzecki> mvo: mhm, remodel pops up :/
[06:26] <mvo> mborzecki: yeah, annoying
[06:26] <mvo> mborzecki: we could could into an upstream fix for this one
[06:27] <zyga> mborzecki: I think for the snap command
[06:27] <zyga> Hey mvo
[06:28] <mvo> hey zyga ! how are you?
[06:28] <zyga> mvo: I am sorry but I need to swap today out, two doctor visits and passport (in person) pick ups
[06:28] <zyga> mvo: apart from jet lag
[06:29] <mvo> zyga: sure, thats fine, good luck
[06:29] <zyga> And +15C
[06:29] <zyga> Okay :-)
[06:29] <mvo> zyga: woah, yeah
[06:29] <zyga> I have some things to share from last week
[06:29] <zyga> (As in *additional* +15C)
[06:32] <mvo> zyga: looking forward to hear what you have to share
[06:32] <mvo> zyga: good luck adjusting to the new climate :)
[06:39] <mborzecki> mvo: looks better now https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/DGT6k9DhhW/
[06:41] <mvo> mborzecki: oh, what did you do?
[06:43] <mborzecki> mvo: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/vXZYYy7C9m/
[06:44] <mborzecki> mvo: hoped we could do it in custom CompletionHandler but there does not seem to be a way to tell what is the kind the completion (commmand, argument etc.)
[06:49] <mvo> mborzecki: aha, I see! thanks. will you submit upstream?
[06:49] <mborzecki> mvo: yes
[06:49] <mvo> ta
[06:49] <mborzecki> mvo: fwiw they fixed it for options back in 2016: https://github.com/jessevdk/go-flags/commit/32811b87051d3e1dc77d2c9925473f2a4a07abdf
[07:04] <mborzecki> mvo: https://github.com/jessevdk/go-flags/pull/312
[07:06] <mvo> mborzecki: cool, thanks!
[07:06] <mvo> mborzecki: funny how sort the test is :)
[07:08] <pstolowski> mornings
[07:09] <mborzecki> pstolowski: hey
[07:09] <mvo> hey pstolowski ! good morning
[07:11] <mborzecki> zyga: hm completion seems to work on centos just fine
[07:41] <pedronis> mvo: hi, I proposed the re-registration PRs
[07:53] <mvo> pedronis: nice!
[08:15] <Chipaca> 👋
[08:20] <Chipaca> pedronis: you around?
[08:21] <pedronis> Chipaca: yes
[08:21] <Chipaca> pedronis: can we talk about the direction for health?
[08:22] <Chipaca> pedronis: (or schedule it)
[08:22] <pedronis> Chipaca: we can do a quick chat yes
[08:23] <Chipaca> pedronis: ok. AIUI what we want is to be able to call set-health in an arbitrary hook, and when not in a hook
[08:23] <Chipaca> pedronis: anything else?
[08:24] <pstolowski> ha, 'Invalid PR title: "state-inspect debug utility"'. it works :)
[08:24] <pedronis> Chipaca: not particularly
[08:27] <pedronis> Chipaca: about the other point,  I see two options always writing to state directly,  or set an OnDone if the context doesn't have a "health" entry yet
[08:27] <pedronis> the first approach means the systema always sees health immediately
[08:27] <pedronis> the 2nd means for hooks is set only once at the end
[08:28] <pedronis> *two options:
[08:30] <Chipaca> pedronis: hmm
[08:37] <pedronis> Chipaca: I think I prefer the 2nd option
[08:38] <Chipaca> pedronis: i'll dig into what it entails
[08:38] <Chipaca> pedronis: should be simple enough (famous last words)
[08:39] <pedronis> Chipaca: yes, it should be simple,  for why I prefer it, a bit more consistent with how snapctl set works
[08:39] <pedronis> also not sure we want people to rely on set-health being immediate
[08:40] <Chipaca> yeah, we're not a cheap message passing thing :)
[08:44] <mborzecki> opensuse repos broken again?
[08:46] <pedronis> Chipaca: you'll need to see how interacts with setting of the check-health hook also based on weather it was set at all or the hook failed
[08:46] <pedronis> but should be workable
[08:46]  * Chipaca adds a note to have check-health look at the weather
[08:47] <Chipaca> pedronis: :) no worries, i think i got what you mean
[08:47] <pedronis> *wether
[08:48] <Chipaca> :)
[08:48] <Chipaca> pedronis: *whether
[08:49] <Chipaca> pedronis: a wether is a castrated ram
[08:49] <Chipaca> pedronis: probably not what you meant
[08:50] <Chipaca> cf widder vs weder
[08:51]  * Chipaca shuts up and goes to work hacking health into submission
[08:52] <Chipaca> mvo: btw I re-opened #6582 and tagged it for 2.40, robert_ancell confirmed (as you can read in the pr) that things are ready for this
[08:54] <Chipaca> pedronis: any opinion on snapd-hook-no-health-set vs snapd-no-health-set-in-hook?
[08:55] <zyga> mborzecki: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1833043 from cmake developer on centos
[08:56] <zyga> Completion inside sandbox, not for snap itself
[08:56] <mborzecki> zyga: ah, so it's completion for snap apps
[08:57] <Chipaca> looks like a tweak's needed in complete.sh
[08:58] <Chipaca> although it already tries to grab it from core
[08:58] <Chipaca> … with the wrong path for it there
[08:58] <Chipaca> sigh
[08:58] <Chipaca> so it's a bug :)
[09:01] <Chipaca> no, sorry, misread, it's something else
[09:05] <Chipaca> gah, CoreLibExecDir
[09:05] <Chipaca> … but that's ok, right? it should be 'inside'?
[09:06] <mborzecki> Chipaca: CoreLibexecDir should be fine
[09:07] <Chipaca> mborzecki: should it still be fine in a classic snap?
[09:10] <mborzecki> Chipaca: [pid 11525] execve("/bin/bash", ["/bin/bash", "/usr/lib/snapd/etelpmoc.sh", "/var/lib/snapd/snap/cmake/12/sha"..., "9", "9", "11", "2", " ", "cmake -G Ni", "cmake", "-G", "Ni
[09:11] <mborzecki> "], 0xc00006b080 /* 45 vars */ <unfinished ...>
[09:11] <mborzecki> Chipaca: hm that should prepend snap mount path for classic, shouldn't it?
[09:12]  * Chipaca has 0.0…0 idea
[09:16] <mborzecki> Chipaca: hm so snap run will run snap-confine --classic --base .. snap.cmake.cmake /usr/libexec/snapd/snap-exec .. , but then snap-exec calls etelpmoc.sh as if it is inside the mount ns, which it isn't
[09:18] <mborzecki> Chipaca: we should probably have CompletionHelperInCore and CompletionHelper, then looking at NeedsClassic() pick the right one
[09:20] <mborzecki> Chipaca: i can look into the fix
[09:20] <mborzecki> shoudl be quite simple
[09:20] <Chipaca> mborzecki: thanks
[09:39] <mborzecki> Chipaca: yay, seems to work now
[09:39]  * Chipaca hugs mborzecki
[10:16] <mborzecki> Chipaca: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7008
[10:17] <Chipaca> mborzecki: thank you
[10:18] <mborzecki> Chipaca: wondering whether we should assume core/current, what if snap has a different base?
[10:19] <Chipaca> mborzecki: magic pixies fly in the window and fix it?
[10:19] <mborzecki> xD
[10:49]  * pstolowski lunch
[12:12] <pstolowski> pedronis: thanks for the 2nd pass over base validation PR
[12:12] <pedronis> np, thank you
[12:14] <mborzecki> off to pick up the kids
[12:17] <pedronis> Chipaca: I reviewed #7001, thank you
[12:35] <pedronis> Chipaca: I asked you for another pass in #6680
[14:06] <diddledan> kenvandine: or willcooke: with the snapd support for fontconfig caches being build up-front, do we need to change the desktop-helpers and the gnome extension PR to match?
[14:06] <kenvandine> diddledan: i don't think so
[14:06] <diddledan> ok, cool
[14:59] <Chipaca> pedronis: thanks for the review, will fix that messaging
[15:56] <diddledan> jdstrand_: gimp requires gvfs access (over dbus) to org.gtk.vfs.Daemon which I think is on the session bus in order to open it's internal help documents. I don't see from a quick glance any interfaces covering this
[15:59] <jdstrand_> diddledan: there is some stuff for gvfs in desktop-legacy, but not org.gtk.vfs.Daemon. why is it talking to the daemon? what is it trying to access?
[16:00] <diddledan> I'm not sure
[16:02] <diddledan> this is the message I get in a dialog when I try to open the internal help:
[16:02] <diddledan> Could not open 'https://docs.gimp.org/2.10/en/gimp-help.xml' for reading: An AppArmor policy prevents this sender from sending this message to this recipient; type="method_call", sender=":1.448" (uid=1000 pid=13202 comm="/usr/lib/gimp/2.0/plug-ins/help/help -gimp 14 13 -" label="snap.gimp.gimp (enforce)") interface="org.gtk.vfs.Daemon" member="GetConnection" error name="(unset)" requested_reply="0" destination=":1.95"
[16:02] <diddledan> (uid=1000 pid=8614 comm="/usr/lib/gvfs/gvfsd-http --spawner :1.22 /org/gtk/" label="unconfined")
[16:03] <diddledan> it looks like it's using gvfs to download the help document
[16:04] <jdstrand_> diddledan: ok, right, it is using gvfs for http access. that is indeed not currently supported. the Daemon apis give a sandbox escape since you can specify a (file) url on the command line and gvfsd, which is unconfined, will give the snap the file
[16:05] <jdstrand> diddledan: gimp should be adjusted to use xdg-open
[17:02] <mborzecki> opensuse repos still flaky
[17:32] <Chipaca> mborzecki: <surprised electric mouse poket monster>
[17:32] <mborzecki> Chipaca: sounds like you caught a pikachu :)
[17:33] <Chipaca> mborzecki: more like a dedenne
[17:34] <mborzecki> hahaha
[17:34] <Chipaca> * this conversation is being supervised by 14-year-olds
[17:45] <Pharaoh_Atem> mborzecki: openSUSE's mirrorbrain crashed and burned this morning
[17:46] <mborzecki> Pharaoh_Atem: as in literally or just some random outage?
[17:46] <Pharaoh_Atem> random outage
[17:47] <mborzecki> hah, there it is: https://status.opensuse.org/
[17:52] <Chipaca> Pharaoh_Atem: if it's any consolation, so did all of Uruguay, most of Argentina, and a good chunk of Brazil
[18:19] <mborzecki> Chipaca: still around? can you take another look at https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/6680 ?
[19:13] <albertosottile> jdstrand: sorry to bother you, are we supposed to do anything else for the alias request?
[20:04] <jdstrand> albertosottile: no. there is a 7 day voting period. people were travelling thu/fri so just haven't gotten the votes yet is all
[20:32] <albertosottile> jdstrand: thanks :)


[18:01] <QRM> yes hello i have recently installed Ubuntu 18 but before I invest any more time in setting up I would like you guys opinion on whether I should continue or revert back to 17 and wait a while lomger, as it usually takes me around 6 hours to configure and harden a Ubuntu installation
[18:02] <QRM> I understand there will be some bugs of course but I suppose what i am asking is, how many
[19:45] <hggdh> QRM: 18.04 (bionic beaver) is beginning development. You can expect a lot of things to change from now to about March 2018
[19:46] <hggdh> QRM: BTW, the 18.04 means 2018, month 04 (april), when it will be released


[18:53] <r-a-x> i am able to connect to wifi but unable to access internet, I am able to ping website by ip but not by name, and i experience 80% packet loss
[18:53] <kuba7447> Tekkkz, are you using openJDK ???
[18:54] <Tekkkz> kuba7447, yeah i think so – how to figure that out?
[18:54] <kuba7447> tekkkz , i had the same problem a day ago, i fix it
[18:55] <Tekkkz> kuba7447, how?
[18:55] <kuba7447> you have to download oracle's JDK, give me a sec and i will give you the link
[18:58] <Tekkkz> kuba7447, sure, thanks
[18:59] <brainwash_> Tekkkz: this user was able to resolve the problem http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/support/unmodified-minecraft-client/2440292-minecraft-boot-trap-error
[19:00] <kuba7447> http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAAahUKEwiiyeyK64rGAhWHXRQKHXMPAF4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.howtogeek.com%2F198476%2Fhow-to-install-minecraft-on-ubuntu-or-any-other-linux-distribution%2F&ei=0St7VeKcFYe7UfOegPAF&usg=AFQjCNHdSnr3X3cyU_1XEUhJd0p5Gcmp8g&bvm=bv.95515949,d.d24
[19:00] <brainwash_> uhm.. that's a long link
[19:00] <kuba7447> tekkkz, http://www.howtogeek.com/198476/how-to-install-minecraft-on-ubuntu-or-any-other-linux-distribution/
[19:00] <kuba7447> it didnt load properly
[19:01] <Tekkkz> ahh ok thanks, brainwash_ 's worked, but thx for your help too, kuba7447
[19:01] <kuba7447> here, tekkkz, http://www.howtogeek.com/198476/how-to-install-minecraft-on-ubuntu-or-any-other-linux-distribution/
[19:01] <brainwash_> great :)
[19:02] <kuba7447> tekkkz, install oracle's jdk anyway, performance increase...
[19:02] <brainwash_> he left already
[19:02] <brainwash_> he/she
[19:02] <kuba7447> ok
[19:06] <xentity1x> Hi can someone help me figure out why I get a blank screen when I boot into discretre graphics mode with my thinkpad w530. I'm running ubuntu 14.10 with an nvidia quadro k2000m.
[19:07] <kuba7447> xentity1x, what driver are you using ?
[19:08] <Blackport> hi, I have problem with ati acceleration in my version of ubuntu, I have hybrid graphic Intel/Amd
[19:09] <xentity1x> kuba7447, I've tried a few. Most recently I tried the nouveau driver. I also tried nvidia-304 (proprietary) and nvidia-331 (proprietary)
[19:09] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: does that card use optimus?
[19:11] <xentity1x> lotuspsychje>, yes I've gotten it to work with bumblebee, but I want to also be able to use discrete mode because using dual monitors with bumblebee is difficult
[19:11] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: bumblebee is outdated, use nvidia-optimus instead
[19:11] <xentity1x> kuba7447, I'm not sure the best driver to use.
[19:12] <lotuspsychje> !info nvidia-prime | xentity1x can you check this package?
, thanks i tried googling that but I can't find any info. Can you direct me to a guide?
[19:14] <Blackport> Hi Again, I have problem with ati acceleration on my laptop I have hybrid graphic Intel/Amd. My laptop was freezing for while ;/
, i installed the package but I dont know how to use it
[19:15] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: if you sure your card uses optimus technology, then sudo apt-get install nvidia-prime
[19:15] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: reboot after, and start nvidia-settings, to enable performance mode to use your nvidia card
, ok brb
[19:17] <lotuspsychje> Blackport: anything usefull to see in your syslog or dmesg?
[19:19] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: found nvidia-settings from dash?
[19:19] <Blackport> When I'm writing vainfo in terminal I don't see amd card, only information about Intel integrate card . I didn't check syslog
[19:19] <lost> hello all
, ok so i did that. This is what nvidia-settings looks like for me http://i.imgur.com/3esUt0u.png
[19:20] <lotuspsychje> Blackport: can you switch the card to amd from bios?
[19:20] <lost> anyone have exp with uefi and ubuntu?
[19:20] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: what about application profiles
, it doesnt show any programs on that screen
[19:21] <Blackport> lotuspsychje: nope ;/  I have asus k53sk laptop  so  they blocked this option in bios
[19:21] <xentity1x> it's just a blank list
[19:21] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: no profile to edit?
[19:22] <lost> i have some boot issues becuase i installed in legacy mode but i need it in uefi and need the efi file i think but im actually pretty new to linux
[19:22] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: should look like this: http://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=nvidia_prime_ubuntu1404&image=nvidia_optimus_prime1_med
[19:22] <xentity1x> http://imgur.com/CNHPsIb
,http://imgur.com/CNHPsIb
[19:23] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: wich drive do you have loaded right now? maybe try a switch from additional drivers?
[19:24] <lotuspsychje> !uefi | lost
[19:24] <xentity1x> <lotuspsychje im using nouevaeu right now
[19:24] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: try another maybe, to see if that influence nvidia-settings
[19:25] <xentity1x> <lotuspsychje any idea how to figure out the best driver for your grpahics card?
[19:25] <dacorr_> trial an error until one of the nvidia drivers work
 i see a few listed under additional drivers
[19:26] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: ubuntu should normaly choose best driver by default, if you enabled internet + updates
[19:26] <dacorr_>  think 340 worked but my onboard intel is still complaining
 i tried reinstalling nvidia-current
[19:29] <pbx> i solved my volume-keys-no-work problem.  it was some detritus from installing i3.  removed all i3 packages and rebooted and we're in business again
now im using nvidia-304 proprietary. The gpu still isnt showing up on nvidia settings
[19:30] <lotuspsychje> !yay | xen
[19:30] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: might need a reboot
 ok brb
[19:31] <lotuspsychje> pbx: so i3 messed up unity?
[19:31] <pbx> lotuspsychje, yeah, subtly
[19:31] <lotuspsychje> pbx: ok tnx for feedback, good to know
[19:32] <Stoner19> hello all
[19:32] <Stoner19> is server the same as desktop, just without the GUI?
[19:32] <lotuspsychje> !server | Stoner19
[19:33] <Stoner19> thank you. I wasn't sure if there were additional packages included in server or if it was just designed to be command prompt only but with same packages as desktop
[19:34] <lotuspsychje> Stoner19: server is non-gui indeed, with other needs then desktop
[19:34] <Stoner19> thank you very much
[19:34] <lotuspsychje> Stoner19: do you want to install ubuntu server?
[19:35] <Stoner19> yes, that is likely what I'll be using. Going to wipe an old macbook to install it on
[19:38] <mach20x> Should I update to 15.04 from 14.10 I have been having troubles with the graphics, it would seem
[19:39] <SchrodingersScat> mach20x: eventually you'll want to make a move anyway
[19:41] <mach20x> "The move" you mean
[19:41] <SchrodingersScat> if you wait too long you'll be headed off to 16.04 before you know it :)
[19:42] <lotuspsychje> mach20x: 14.10 is almost end of life, the move means you will have to update soon anyway
[19:44] <mach20x> I'm doing the upgrade as we speak
[19:44] <lotuspsychje> mach20x: good choice
[19:45] <lost> im using 15.04 now
[19:45] <lost> but i have dual boot for 14.04 also
[19:46] <lost> but i have some boot issues because of uefi with a layer of bios
[19:46] <mach20x> I just got a new modem installed, the Ethernet port fried during a lightning storm on the old one, I think that port was starting to go anyways
, okay got it!
[19:48] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: how did you fix mate?
, I had to install the nvidia-331 drivers.
[19:48] <fellayaboy> is it possible to run a gui program without a desktop environment?
[19:48] <mach20x> I might have got some bad packages as a result of the failing Ethernet port on the old modem
, now any idea how to get it to detect my second monitor connected to the vga port
[19:48] <xentity1x> ?
[19:49] <lotuspsychje> !xrandr | xentity1x
, this is the output of xrandr http://pastebin.com/zqahRfQS
[19:50] <mach20x> That maybe why it was crashing. EriC^^  has the lowdown on the output of my machine with regards to that problem
, Its not detecting the vga connection
[19:50] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: you need to config xrandr, read the link mate
[19:51] <lotuspsychje> fellayaboy: if the package is also for terminal, you can run it
[19:52] <mach20x> Has there been any updates to the open source drivers in Ubuntu for my 4650 ati graphics cards (am doing variety)
[19:52] <fellayaboy> lotuspsychje: well yeah but what about x applications like firefox or calculator libreoffice…is it possible to run the command and load the gui app without the desktop environment?
[19:52] <mach20x> AMD not am
[19:53] <lotuspsychje> fellayaboy: not sure what you wanna achieve with this?
[19:53] <fellayaboy> or to somehow load a very very light weight desktop environment the moment it runs
[19:53] <lotuspsychje> !windowmanagers | fellayaboy
[19:54] <lotuspsychje> !info blackbox | fellayaboy
[19:54] <fellayaboy> hmm blackbo
[19:54] <fellayaboy> let me check that out
[19:55] <fellayaboy> i also wanted to run gui apps off of an ssh server… i tried it to do it but some gui apps dont work while others do..but at least i wnted to try doing it locally…
[19:55] <lotuspsychje> fellayaboy: e17 (enlightment) is also cool
[19:55] <mach20x> fellayaboy:  are you running a chroot environment on a single core on a phone or something?
[19:55] <fellayaboy> raspberry pi
[19:56] <fellayaboy> ubuntu-mate…i had another ubuntu before where it was just the command line no deskto environment before i plan to do the same with this one
[19:56] <lotuspsychje> fellayaboy: you can also ssh X
[19:56] <mach20x> Ah OK, I figured it was something with very limited resources
[19:57] <fellayaboy> i use to run gui apps using ssh -X …some apps run the gui fine on the client but not most
[19:57] <fellayaboy> simple apps like gedit would work
[19:58] <fellayaboy> guys thanks for all your help
[19:59] <fellayaboy> lotuspsychje:  enlightment looks awesome tahnks for sharing that
[19:59] <Peret> The 'avahi daemon' is installed in Ubuntu by default. Are there security risks if I am using public networks (Free WiFi, ...)?
[19:59] <lotuspsychje> fellayaboy: no sweat mate
[20:00] <lotuspsychje> Peret: public wifi's are always a risk mate
[20:00] <lotuspsychje> Peret: they can sniff out passwords
, okay so I tried turning on vga1 with xrandr --output VGA1 --right-of LVDS1
[20:01] <Peret> lotuspsychje: Yes, I know. But what could others do if I have the avahi daemon installed? Could you tell me some examples for possible attacks?
, that doesnt seem to work
[20:01] <lotuspsychje> xentity1x: not sure about that man, sorry dont got 2 screens here
, okay thanks
[20:03] <lotuspsychje> Peret: not sure for avahi, but public wifi's are always a risk
[20:04] <lotuspsychje> Peret: if you keep your system up to date, security risks will lower
[20:10] <Z3> Hi ! If I buy BQ Aquaris E5 Ubuntu edition, when "docking mode" or convergence is finished will be available too in this phone?
[20:10] <Ev0luti0n_> Hi folks.
[20:10] <xentity1x> can anyone help me figure out how to add a second monitor with xrandr?
[20:10] <brainwash_> !hi
[20:10] <Z3> I want to use it as a desktop pc when convergence is ready
[20:10] <lotuspsychje> !touch | Z3
[20:11] <Z3> lotuspsychje ok, thank you
[20:13] <Ev0luti0n_> Is there any hidden panel, where the power management features can be controled on Ubuntu?
[20:14] <Ev0luti0n_> thoroughly searched the system settings, in hopes of finding how to enable bluetooth over battery, but found nothing. Unity tweaker has nothing as well...
[20:14] <lotuspsychje> Ev0luti0n_: dconf-editor has power management options
[20:14] <lotuspsychje> !info dconf-editor | Ev0luti0n_
[20:14] <Ev0luti0n_> thanks!
[20:15] <Ev0luti0n_> Not being a complete newb, i do have a question. How am i able to find these not so obvious things? I mean, in windows you have "config .ini files, registry editing"... in linux, i just feel lost in certain situations.
[20:16] <mach20x> I'm running my system on a TV with 1080p but the drivers I have won't recognize the hdmi converter. Should I load the propriety drivers for my graphics cards? Will that solve this issue?
[20:17] <lotuspsychje> Ev0luti0n_: well dconf editor is a bit like a registry
[20:18] <lotuspsychje> Ev0luti0n_: of course, there are plenty of nice packages also to make your life easier
[20:18] <Ev0luti0n_> installing it already from the sources.
[20:19] <Ev0luti0n_> What i am trying to say is that, "one sort of is capable of finding the solution through the windows guy for a problem that arises", while on linux, if i don't search the web, i am not capable of arranging a solution; ever. loll
[20:20] <lotuspsychje> Ev0luti0n_: whats your issue exactly?
[20:20] <Ev0luti0n_> there is always a myriad of commands, string combinations, packages, dpkg, extracting from archives
[20:20] <Ev0luti0n_> you name it.
[20:20] <lotuspsychje> !info arandr | xentity1x can this help?
[20:20] <Ev0luti0n_> As for now, nothing more. Just a newb ranting. Thanks lotuspsychje
[20:26] <mach20x> I guess I'll just have to try it and find out
[20:27] <tgm4883> mach20x: I'd say just try it. You could also just hand configure xorg.conf
[20:28] <mach20x> What would I do with xorg.conf now?
[20:29] <tgm4883> well you could hand configure it so the settings match what your TV can do, you'll need to set the ignore EDID flag
[20:29] <sting3r> anyone know any replacement for remastersys or reconstructor
[20:30] <tgm4883> mach20x: if the settings aren't getting picked up automatically, then that would be the way to do it manually
[20:30] <sting3r> running ubuntu 15.04
[20:30] <ptrz> how do I get to a terminal from the login prompt?
[20:30] <mach20x> Great, I'll keep that in mind!
[20:30] <ptrz> (the Unity login prompt)
[20:30] <ptrz> it's giving me the "failed to start session" error
[20:31] <tgm4883> ptrz: ctrl+alt+F1
[20:31] <ptrz> and I'm pretty proficient as a sysadmin, but I'm not getting a grub option and I can't get any information at all about what's actually going on
[20:31] <ptrz> tgm4883: ah, thanks. I really think there should be a menu option for that
[20:32] <ptrz> cause from what I could tell, I was logged out and was going to have to boot to a recovery USB
[20:32] <sting3r> need a good app too replace remastersys or reconstructor
[20:32] <tgm4883> ptrz: I... you don't need to do that often, and that's the case for any linux distro out there.
[20:32] <mach20x> I'm not getting any signal to the hdmi as it is set now with a converter for the dvi
[20:34] <dmrq> ahoy
[20:35] <hugegreenbug> sting3r: try my script: github.com/distroshare/distroshare-ubuntu-imager
[20:35] <ptrz> tgm4883: what's the case?
[20:36] <sting3r> thx
[20:36] <tgm4883> ptrz: any linux distro you try would do the same for ctrl+alt+F1
[20:36] <ptrz> tgm4883: anyway, I'm seeing two errors in syslog. one about dnsmasq that I think I recognize, and one about systemd not being able to open the usb descriptor file or something like that
[20:37] <ptrz> I upgraded and dist-upgraded and rebooted. checking back now to see whether it worked
[20:40] <roothy>  /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER roothy owgruqshujny
[20:42] <jParkton> nope
[20:42] <dionysus69> hey guys
[20:43] <dionysus69> I am following this tutorial
[20:43] <dionysus69> I am told to install tigervnc on centos, is tigervnc "default" for ubuntu for the same reasons it is for centos?
[20:46] <tgm4883> I'm not sure I understand the question
[20:47] <Peret> Can sombody explain me why ntpd opens port 123 by default although I only want to sync the time?
[20:48] <compdoc> beacuse thats the NTP port?
[20:49] <jParkton> :O
[20:49] <swair>  i'm compiling kernel 3.16 gcc versions are 5 and 4.8, i've set CC=/usr/bin/gcc-4.8 still i get this error: fatal error: linux/compiler-gcc5.h: No such file or directory. anu ideas?
[20:49] <jParkton> looks like the script you are trying to compile is looking for => v5
[20:50] <swair> its the Makefile for kernel. i set CC=/usr/bin/gcc-4.8
[20:50] <swair> so it should not look for the gcc5 header right?
[20:51] <hugegreenbug> Peret: ntpd is also a server, not just a client to sync the time. AFAIK
[20:51] <Peret> compdoc: But why not only send a ntp request to the server and get the answer? Why have the port be open all the time?
[20:51] <dionysus69> so if I want to install vnc server or client on ubuntu, what would I install? I guess there are several forks
[20:51] <mach20x> Should I replace /etc/nginx/nginx.conf  ?
[20:52] <hugegreenbug> Peret: If configured correctly, other clients could sync the time from your ntpd daemon
[20:52] <mach20x> From 14.10 to 15.04
[20:52] <Peret> hugegreenbug: Isn't there a possibility so that I use the program only as client?
[20:54] <hugegreenbug> Peret: I think by default it is setup to only be a client, but it still opens that port. You can check the ntp config file
[20:55] <hugegreenbug> Peret: I think it is in /etc/ntp or something
[20:58] <ELITEZ-CRYPTO> http://worldhacker.org
[21:02] <jParkton> man his site is so crappy
[21:02] <jParkton> pitiful engrish
[21:02] <OliPicard> Hi everyone, I'm trying to create a init.d script that can run the following command on boot su kippo -c /home/kippo/kippo/start.sh any ideas on how to do this?
[21:02] <OliPicard> I just need the script to run on boot fire up and that's it.
[21:02] <teward> OliPicard: perhaps put it at the end of /etc/rc.local
[21:03] <mcphail> or add it to kippo's crontab
[21:03] <teward> which is called during boot
[21:03] <teward> mcphail: he'll need pidfile checking or such but that's another option
[21:03] <teward> mcphail: if he only wants it to run once at boot then /etc/rc.local is probably what he needs
[21:03] <mcphail> teward: crontab accepts @reboot as a time
[21:03] <teward> provided the process is disowned after starting and forked to the background
[21:04] <teward> mcphail: oh really?  cool
[21:04] <mcphail> yes, it is handy
[21:04] <teward> mcphail: he could still use /etc/rc.local if he wants, whichever works :P
[21:04] <mcphail> agreed :)
[21:05] <lasers> Is there a good GTK update manager for those running on different window manager?
[21:06] <OliPicard> teward: So I can input the command I mentioned above in /rc.local or should I just run kippo -c /home/kippo/kippo/start.sh
[21:07] <teward> OliPicard: you should still run the entire command you mentioned above, or put it in the crontab for the user kippo.  Either works, in my opinion.
[21:07] <OliPicard> teward: Alrighty so I've gone ahead and done this
[21:07] <OliPicard> su kippo -c /home/kippo/kippo/start.sh & including the and on the end so it's not going into an infinite loop
[21:09] <Myrth> hello, during `aptitude upgrade`, /boot got full and can't linux-server installation crashed. i've cleaned old files, but now i can't install or upgrade kernel because it says: "Internal Error: Could not find image (/boot/vmlinuz-3.2.0-85-generic-pae)"
[21:09] <Myrth> how can i force it to install the newest kernel? thanks
[21:10] <Scunizi> I have a lot of entries in .bash_aliases. Is there a way to list what's listed in there via cli? Prehaps creating another alias with a cat command?
[21:10] <OliPicard> sweet it's working! :)
[21:10] <dionysus69> how do I connect to a vnc server ?
[21:10] <OliPicard> Thank you everyone!
[21:10] <dionysus69> what package do I need to install ?
[21:10] <compdoc> the client?
[21:11] <dionysus69> its called vnc-client? its not real, tight or tiger? just vnc?
[21:12] <compdoc> no, do you want a client to connect to an existing vnc server, or do you want to run a vnc server so you can connect?
[21:13] <dionysus69> I am connecting to already running vnc
[21:13] <Scunizi> dionysus69: If you're trying to do a remote desktop connection with graphics you might consider using Teamviewer
[21:14] <dionysus69> i partially answered my question, i found out remmina has vnc support, but there are two options, vnc- incoming connections or vnc - virtual network computing?
[21:14] <dionysus69> Scunizi: teamviewer on linux is buggy from my experience, vnc has better reputation in my mind
[21:15] <uhci_> i guess this is what you need OliPicard https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBootupHowto
[21:15] <OliPicard> uhci_: Thanks :)
[21:16] <OliPicard> uhci_: I had a quick look at https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/linux/usage/rc-local.md
[21:19] <courrier> Hey guys do you know a PDF viewer that is able to switch slides automatically and infinitely restarts from the first when it ends? Evince has not this feature, and I would like to avoid converting my pdf in many pictures ^^
[21:20] <kokut> courrier: why not just press the home button
[21:25] <courrier> kokut: I don't wanna press anything, it's for a show, my pdf will autonomously browse slides on a TV in background
[21:26] <mcphail> courrier: not sure about any software for automatic progression of PDF slides, but very easy to convert to images if you have software which can rotate those
[21:27] <kokut> courrier: use another presentation software
[21:28] <Pifa> hey there
[21:28] <Pifa> anyone can assist with sftp server set up ?
[21:29] <courrier> kokut: I know that, but my question is "what presentation software?"
[21:29] <SchrodingersScat> !ask | Pifa: I'm guessing there's some caveats to that?
[21:32] <mach20x> Upgrade install of 15.04 finds me with no sound. How may I fix this.
[21:42] <snake0> hey does anyone know how to force install a packge like http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=libre2-dev on trusty
[21:43] <snake0> i tried to build from source but i had issues with it
[21:44] <Guest50732> ?
[21:45] <Guest50732> ahloa
[21:51] <snake0> nm got it working
[21:51] <snake0> NO THANKS TO YOU FAGS AMIRITE
[21:52] <compdoc> no
[22:09] <jParkton> takes one to know one, amiright
[22:09] <jParkton> yuss
[22:10] <thiede> hi
[22:10] <thiede> good night
[22:13] <thiede> NVIDIA Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2)
[22:13] <thiede> dont get ip
[22:13] <thiede> what problem ?
[22:49] <xisall> :-D
[22:49] <syadnom> hi all.  anyone using btrfs on u14.04s x64 and seeing the misreported available space?
[22:50] <syadnom> I have 4x 4TB drives in a raid1 setup, showing 15T available when it should be 7~8TB available
[22:54] <erik__> Hello All!
[22:55] <reisio> 'lo erik
[22:55] <xisall> Hiii, i Have a question, Which disto is the best on a Macbook 2009
[22:56] <ubuntu717> hola alguien habla español
[22:56] <ubuntu717> alguien lee aca?
[22:56] <ubuntu717> holas
[22:56] <ubuntu717> alo
[22:56] <ubuntu717> alguien despierto
[22:56] <pingpingpong> Alo
[22:56] <ubuntu717> pingpingpong: hola
[22:57] <pingpingpong> Italiano?
[22:57] <ubuntu717> español
[22:57] <xisall> hola ubuntu 717!!!!!
[22:57] <ubuntu717> espñol
[22:57] <user__> holla
[22:57] <ubuntu717> xisall: hola
[22:57] <pingpingpong> Indendo un pochito
[22:57] <ubuntu717> xisall:
[22:57] <ubuntu717> user__: hola
[22:57] <ubuntu717> alguno sabe algo de pulseaudio
[22:58] <xisall> no ni idea!!
[22:58] <ubuntu717> instale pulseaudio y ahora quede sin sonido
[22:58] <pingpingpong> No :/
[22:58] <DalekSec> !es | ubuntu717
[22:58] <user__> Perque buscas coisanas del ubuntu?
[22:59] <user__> Ubuntu no presta
[23:01] <reactormonk> I have something listening on port 8443, but netstat -tulpn doesn't list me a PID, neither does fuser. Any other way to figure out what's listening?
[23:02] <EriC^^> reactormonk: try lsof -i
[23:02] <reactormonk> EriC^^, or try it as root.
[23:02] <EriC^^> no need for root
[23:02] <reactormonk> netstat told me the PID as root.
[23:03] <EriC^^> oh ok, cool
[23:03] <Bray90820> What's a good way to remotely update ubuntu
[23:04] <reisio> Bray90820: via commands
[23:04] <Oog> using sed how do i get it to actually use a \
[23:04] <reisio> Oog: \\
[23:04] <Oog>  echo `echo $EB_APP_CURRENT_DIR | sed s/"\/"/"\/"/g`
[23:04] <Bray90820> reisio: do you mean through the terminal
[23:05] <EriC^^> Bray90820: run sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade in a screen session
[23:05] <reisio> Oog: escape it like anything else you need to escape
[23:05] <reisio> Bray90820: yes, over ssh
[23:05] <Oog> reisio: i tried that it doesnt work it doesnt do anything. $EB_APP_CURRENT_DIR=/var/app/current i need to get it to \/var\/app\/current
[23:05] <EriC^^> Bray90820: use screen
[23:05] <Oog> echo `echo $EB_APP_CURRENT_DIR | sed s/"\/"/"\\\/"/g` results in /var/app/current
[23:05] <reactormonk> how do I ask which package a file belongs to?
[23:05] <Bray90820> EriC^^: It's a server that I don't have a screen connected to
[23:06] <syadnom> Bray90820, I suggest using screen or tmux on a remote session though, that way if you get disconnected your session doesn't die
[23:06] <EriC^^> Oog: those echo's are a little redundant
[23:06] <reisio> Oog: you said \ not / :p
[23:06] <reisio> Oog: sed can use most any delimiter, I prefer @ when not using /
[23:06] <EriC^^> Bray90820: screen is something that lets you leave the session but it continues, and you can attach to it later
[23:07] <EriC^^> !info screen
[23:07] <reisio> sed 's@foo/bar@baz/qux@g
[23:07] <Oog> there we go! simple thanks
[23:07] <Bray90820> EriC^^: When you say screen your not talking about connecting a monitor to it right?
[23:07] <reisio> with a trailling ' of course :P
[23:07] <reisio> doing that a lot lately
[23:08] <EriC^^> Bray90820: no
[23:08]  * reisio was food poisoned this morning, blames that
[23:10] <Kion> for some reason after upgrading to 15.04, whenever I try to print, my printing dialog takes ages, anybody has a similar problem?
[23:10] <Kion> Or a solution?
[23:11] <syadnom> Bray90820, it's a program that virtualizes your terminal.  You can ssh in and connect to 'screen', which has a number of persistant terminal sessions.
[23:12] <Bray90820> syadnom: Is it basically RDP from a terminal?
[23:12] <syadnom> so you could connect at home, then close your ssh program, go to another location and connect back up to the very same session
[23:12] <syadnom> Bray90820, I wouldn't say 'basically', but that might be a fair analogy
[23:12] <Bray90820> Like screen sharing for just the terminal right?
[23:13] <syadnom> Bray90820, but it's only for a terminal session, it's not a GUI interface
[23:13] <Bray90820> I know there is no GUI
[23:14] <Bray90820> Would this work with ubuntu as the server and OSX as the client
[23:14] <EriC^^> Bray90820: it's like a session manager for the terminal, like a container for the session, you can run something in screen, detach and then close the terminal and leave it running, then later ssh back in and attach to it
[23:14] <reisio> Bray90820: ssh works to and from any OS
[23:14] <EriC^^> Bray90820: so if your internet goes down or something it would continue for instance
[23:15] <reisio> Bray90820: screen does as well
[23:15] <reisio> but screen isn't client-server, it's just client
[23:15] <Bray90820> so it's just an SSH session?
[23:15] <reisio> you have a screen for each OS you want to use screen on, whereas with ssh you have a client for one and a server for the other
[23:15] <reisio> yeah it's just an ssh session
[23:15] <reisio> that you run screen from
[23:15] <reisio> remotely, from ssh
[23:15] <reisio> screen is just an app like any other
[23:15] <reisio> only super useful :D
[23:16] <syadnom> screen is for POSIX OS's, so linux, OSX, *BSD etc.  You can connect from about anything because you are just telnet or ssh'ing in and executing the screen program.
[23:17] <Bray90820> Spesifically for "sudo apt-get update" would you think I should stick with teamviewer or move to screens
[23:18] <syadnom> Bray90820, teamviewer? why would you use that?
[23:18] <EriC^^> just use screen, also update only updates the list of packages, it doesn't actually upgrade any packages
[23:18] <syadnom> Bray90820, ssh in, run screen (look at the docs for how to use it) and win!
[23:18] <Bray90820> syadnom: I am using teamviewer for some gui stuff that can'r be done in the terminal
[23:19] <reisio> eh, Windows is POSIX, too
[23:19] <reisio> if you mean Unixy, say Unixy
[23:19] <syadnom> Bray90820, 'can't be done in terminal' I dont understand this ;)
[23:20] <reisio> heh
[23:20] <Bray90820> syadnom: Haha Setting up some mythtv recordings
[23:20] <syadnom> reisio, windows is NOT posix compliant.  You can run cygwin on top to have a posix layer, but windows is certainly not
[23:20] <reisio> syadnom: it is
[23:20] <reisio> it's just crap is all
[23:20] <reisio> POSIX doesn't guarantee non-crapness
[23:20] <reisio> Unix does that :p
[23:20] <reisio> well free Unix, mostly
[23:22] <zykotick9> reisio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX#POSIX_for_Windows windows is NOT posix...
[23:22] <syadnom> zykotick9, you beat me! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_POSIX_subsystem
[23:22] <syadnom> windows is not POSIX
[23:22] <zykotick9> syadnom: :)
[23:22] <Rodrigo5244> Windows have win32_api instead of POSIX.
[23:23] <EriC^^> windows is only POS
[23:23] <EriC^^> without the IX
[23:23] <reisio> zykotick9: didn't say it was
[23:23] <zykotick9> EriC^^: that's not Point Of Sale I'm assuming ;)
[23:23] <EriC^^> zykotick9: lol :P
[23:23] <syadnom> haha definitely not Point of Sale
[23:23] <xisall1> Hello, I have a question, Which distro is the best on a mac 2009
[23:23]  * syadnom harps on windows while running win8 :/
[23:23] <reisio> xisall1: whichever you're most familiar with
[23:24] <reisio> syadnom: probably why they have separate names, windows & posix
[23:24] <syadnom> reisio, not really sure how the names come into play :/
[23:24] <xisall1> thanks
[23:25] <syadnom> There is no 'POSIX' OS, just POSIX compliant OS's
[23:25] <reisio> that's how it comes into play
[23:26] <syadnom> anyway, back to the point of bringing it up, porting between POSIX os's is much easier so screen and tmux etc can be ported to various POSIX os's pretty easily, and so that's where it runs
[23:26] <syadnom> there were even screen ports to beOS
[23:27] <syadnom> and current screen and tmux is ported to HaikuOS.
[23:27] <reisio> even easier between Unix OSes :p
[23:27] <reisio> not that POSIX isn't a super cool name for a thing
[23:28] <syadnom> reisio, which unix os's are you talking about?
[23:29] <syadnom> posix compatability is the key commonality, it means standard interfaces.  if you wanted a multi-posix platform compatability for your app, you'd target posix, not unix convensions.  linux for instance doesn't use a ton of unix convensions, it uses posix convensions.
[23:30] <syadnom> and so unix command line
[23:30] <reisio> syadnom: Unix ones
[23:30] <reisio> no, POSIX is just a thing invented long after Unix OSes
[23:30] <reisio> Unix is the commonality
[23:31] <syadnom> reisio, no it's not.
[23:31] <reisio> yup
[23:31] <syadnom> no, linux isn't unix, so there is no 'unix' there to target
[23:31] <OerHeks> LoLz
[23:31] <reisio> I'll take the word of a Unix co-creator of some random IRC person's :p
[23:31] <reisio> s/of some/over some/
[23:32] <syadnom> reisio, haha, post that word here for all the read
[23:32] <reisio> um, sure
[23:32] <lost> anyone know about uefi?
[23:32] <reisio> lost: what about it
[23:32] <syadnom> cause you are wrong, so I want to you let everyone know your incorrect source
[23:33] <OerHeks> reisio +1
[23:33] <lost> i have a hp envy m6 and it was originally a windows comp but i installed ubuntu and it has some boot issues i think it has somthing to do with uefi
[23:33] <reisio> syadnom: not sure how I can be wrong about a verified quote, but I'll find it if you like
[23:33] <EriC^^> lost: what issues?
[23:33] <syadnom> lost, probably say your issue, might be a better path to follow
[23:34] <syadnom> reisio, yes please
[23:35] <lost> well ubuntu is installed in legacy mode because it was giving problems like black sceen booting but now it just glitches on boot even sometimes from the login sceen it does it too
[23:35] <syadnom> lost, hmmm, does it boot up though and you just lose video?  can you ssh in to the box?
[23:36] <syadnom> lost, can you clarify 'on boot', it sounds as if you are mixing up the system boot with the X initialization.
[23:36] <lost> it doesnt lose video like pixle glitches and it does boot and i actually only been using linux for about a year so ssh is somthing ive never done
[23:37] <reisio> syadnom: 4th response: http://www.linuxfocus.org/English/July1999/article79.html
[23:37] <EriC^^> lost: type lspci -k | grep -A2 VGA and paste here
[23:37] <reisio> and 5th
[23:37] <reisio> and in general throughout
[23:38] <lost> type it in terminal?
[23:38] <EriC^^> yeah
[23:38] <reisio> also it's just apparent... GNU was always meant to be a Unix clone, that's what it is
[23:38] <reisio> even if it weren't meant to be, it still is :p
[23:38] <lost> what does that do?
[23:38] <kuba7447> can i make unity games on linux?
[23:38] <EriC^^> lost: tells us your graphics card and driver in use
[23:39] <syadnom> reisio, Ritchie is an old unix dev, but he is grouping non-unixes with unix as if they are the same and they are not.
[23:39] <lost> lost@lost-hp-envy-m6:~$ lspci -k | grep -A2 VGA
[23:39] <lost> 00:01.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Trinity [Radeon HD 7660G]
[23:39] <lost> 	Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device 18a6
[23:39] <lost> 	Kernel driver in use: radeon
[23:39] <lost> lost@lost-hp-envy-m6:~$
[23:39] <reisio> kuba7447: maybe not so simply
[23:39] <reisio> syadnom: I think this brings us back to: I give his word more credit than yours :p
[23:39] <reisio> not that it matters, it's apparent, heh
[23:39] <kuba7447> not so simple?
[23:40] <syadnom> reisio, except that you are using a reference that doesn't apply.
[23:40] <reisio> "Starting this Thanksgiving I am going to write a complete Unix-compatible software system" — original GNU announcement
[23:40] <reisio> syadnom: sure it does
[23:40] <syadnom> reisio, that article is BIG on generalization, and doesn't mention posix even once
[23:40] <reisio> kuba7447: I don't believe unity3d specifically targets GNU/Linux, so yeah, not as simple as for some OSes
[23:41] <reisio> syadnom: why would it, I just got done saying posix is irrelevant :p
[23:41] <kuba7447> will unity be natively supported on linux?
[23:41] <reisio> if you want proof that it's irrelevant, Windows supports it and Windows still bites
[23:41] <syadnom> reisio, posix is relevant, it is why the gnu toolchain works on linux.
[23:41] <reisio> kuba7447: you're talking about unity3d, yes?
[23:41] <kuba7447> unity sdk
[23:41] <syadnom> the gnu toolchain was written for posix compliance, and very spcifically NOT unix
[23:41] <reisio> syadnom: gnu predates posix
[23:41] <OerHeks> kuba7447, if you want unity game engine, no: osx and windows only
[23:42] <OerHeks> http://unity3d.com/get-unity
[23:42] <syadnom> stallman was writing a toolchain for a non-unix OS
[23:42] <kuba7447> that sucks :(
[23:42] <kuba7447> is blender good?
[23:42] <reisio> what do you expect from a proprietary engine
[23:42] <reisio> kuba7447: yes, it's grand
[23:42] <reisio> syadnom: he was writing a toolchain for an OS he wouldn't get sued over
[23:42] <reisio> naturally it would not be "Unix", merely Unix
[23:42] <syadnom> reisio, sure.  and it wasn't unix
[23:43] <reisio> wasn't it? :p
[23:43] <syadnom> reisio, certainly not
[23:43] <reisio> is a clone the same entity as what it was cloned from?
[23:43] <reisio> no, but also yes :p
[23:43] <lost> because im so new to linux where could i learn more im super ambitious about learning everything linux  any recommendations where i could learn more about terminal just all linux
[23:43] <reisio> lost: ##linux in general
[23:43] <kuba7447> will Microsoft sue reactOS ?
[23:43] <syadnom> reisio, no, hurd isn't a unix, linux isn't a unix
[23:43] <lost> yes
[23:43] <reisio> kuba7447: didn't they already?
[23:43] <kuba7447> did they? lol
[23:43] <reisio> I'm sure they threatened to, at least
[23:44] <reisio> syadnom: indeed, hurd is a kernel
[23:44] <reisio> Unix is an OS
[23:44] <reisio> I know reactos did a huge audit to avoid that
[23:44] <syadnom> reisio, ok, so I'll clarify.  GNU/Hurd and GNU/Linux are not unixes
[23:44] <reisio> Microsoft makes more from suing people making money
[23:44] <kuba7447> same with apple
[23:45] <reisio> syadnom: sure they are
[23:45] <syadnom> they are not
[23:45] <reisio> syadnom: sure they are
[23:45] <zykotick9> syadnom: i'd say they are unix-like...
[23:45] <lost> i just wanna learn how to use linux more fluently
[23:45] <reisio> by the very act of using the word "UnixES", you verify that Unix is not a single thing
[23:45] <reisio> so just give it a rest :p
[23:45] <syadnom> zykotick9, they are unix-like, but they are not unix
[23:45] <kuba7447> i wanted to try reactOS but why should i?
[23:45] <reisio> kuba7447: I can't think of a reason
[23:45] <reisio> kuba7447: severe boredom?
[23:46] <OerHeks> !terminal | lost
[23:46] <kuba7447> maybe
[23:46] <syadnom> reisio, I (nor linus) ever use unixes to describe linux
[23:46] <zykotick9> syadnom: they are not direct decendents of unix no.
[23:46] <reisio> syadnom: because Linux is a kernel
[23:46] <reisio> and Unix is an OS...
[23:46] <le_pig> lol...
[23:46] <syadnom> gnu/linux, which is generally referred to as linux :/
[23:46] <kuba7447> hurd will fail, its too much behind
[23:46] <lost> oerheks ty
[23:46] <syadnom> unless you are stallman and you have a hard on for the gnu part
[23:47] <lost> hey you guys watched the show Mr Robot?
[23:47] <reisio> right, but I'm sure Linus, having created Linux, which is a kernel, unlike you perhaps(? :p), knows it's a kernel and not an OS
[23:47] <syadnom> kuba7447, hurd wont fail, you have to exist to fail lol
[23:47] <reisio> lost: nope, good?
[23:47] <kuba7447> linux > hurd
[23:47] <syadnom> reisio, linux is a kernel, gnu is a non-unix toolchain.  GNU/Linux is not unix, it's unix-like
[23:47] <lost> yes i thought so
[23:47] <reisio> I bookmarked it a few weeks back
[23:47] <reisio> lost: cool
[23:48] <reisio> kuba7447: certainly fatter :p
[23:48] <reisio> syadnom: you're so cute :p
[23:48] <kuba7447> i dont understand why someone should call linux gnu/linux
[23:48] <reisio> kuba7447: 'Unix' is simpler
[23:48] <syadnom> kuba7447, because stallman hates us all, thats why
[23:48] <reisio> but if you were distinguishing between one Unix and another, GNU/Linux is useful
[23:48] <reisio> because GNU is about 900% of the OS, and Linux is about 0.5%
[23:48] <syadnom> reisio, unix isn't simpler, linux isn't unix so it's completely untrue
[23:48] <syadnom> to use reactos as an example, reactos isn't windows.
[23:48] <reisio> if you want to see how awful the OS is with Linux and without GNU, you need only try using Android
[23:49] <reisio> no it's not windows, it's just windows
[23:49] <syadnom> lol
[23:49] <lost> reisio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpxvvnWvffM
[23:49] <kuba7447> i respect stallman but if a user want to use proprietary software....
[23:49] <reisio> kuba7447: yes?
[23:49] <reisio> it's that user's choice, that's the beauty of free software
[23:49] <kuba7447> gnu is 8% of the os, linux is about 10%
[23:49] <reisio> lost: oh wow, on youtube
[23:50] <syadnom> stallman is the Al Gore of software.  so headstrong for 'free' that he chases everyone else off
[23:50] <reisio> kuba7447: nope
[23:50] <reisio> yes, annoying Stallman who created the OS you're using :p
[23:50] <syadnom> kuba7447, where did you get those numbers?  made up or is there an article you read?
[23:50] <lost> yeah i was surprised too
[23:50] <kuba7447> so ironic how stallman fights for freedom but forbids to use proprietary software
[23:50] <reisio> lost: this is just in time, I ran out of eps of the series I was watching
[23:51] <reisio> kuba7447: since he's not in charge of everyone, and knows this, it's irrelevant
[23:51] <reisio> lost: weekly, oy
[23:51] <syadnom> stallmans crew did a good job on a lot of those utilites for sure, but they guy has taken it way too far.
[23:51] <zykotick9> kuba7447: actually, stallman argues against the creators of non-free sofware, NOT the users (who are victims)
[23:51] <lost> reisio: theres only 1 epi of this but its good
[23:51] <reisio> lost: yeah, I couldn't watch Breaking Bad originally because a week is too long
[23:51] <reisio> I'll watch the first ep, though :)
[23:52] <lost> reisio: i concur
[23:52] <reisio> so usa is putting its shows on youtube now or what?
[23:52] <kuba7447> we all want linux to be successful , i prefer open software but there is nothing wrong with using propiatery software
[23:52] <lost> reisio: its definitely worth watching i loved it
[23:53] <syadnom> kuba7447, linux is wildly successful is it not?
[23:53] <kuba7447> 1.5% of desktops, ehhhhh
[23:53] <syadnom> unless you mean you want *linux to dethrone Windows
[23:53] <reisio> lost: :)
[23:53] <OerHeks> bug 1
[23:53] <reisio> yes, you _can_ use proprietary software and only waste your own time
[23:54] <reisio> though if you're in a position of power you can waste many other people's :p
[23:54] <syadnom> I think the fundamental problem with *linux (in regards to replacing Windows) is that it's appropraite to put the * in front of it.  which linux do you want to win??
[23:54] <lost> reisio: i dont think there putting there shows on youtube but i think they just trying to get more publicity
[23:54] <reisio> no particular distro needs to win
[23:54] <reisio> lost: hrmrmrmrmrm
[23:55] <lost> reisio:but im glad they did
[23:55] <syadnom> if you write a software package, you have to either package it for a bunch of distros (filesystem layouts, init scripts blah blah) or hope it's hot enough that someone else packages it for you :/
[23:55] <kuba7447> i hate how fedora dosent allow you to use propiatery software, but there is always korora
[23:55] <reisio> where 'hot enough' means a useful contribution at all
[23:55] <reisio> that's right, only useful contributions are appreciated :p
[23:55] <reisio> 't'was ever thus
[23:56] <syadnom> I don't have a problem with proprietary software, I have a problem with proprietary formats.
[23:56] <kuba7447> formats?
[23:56] <syadnom> file formats
[23:56] <lost> EriC^^: do you know how to install ubuntu in uefi mode?
[23:57] <kuba7447> for example?
[23:57] <EriC^^> lost: yeha
[23:57] <EriC^^> *yeah
[23:57] <syadnom> the trap isn't in using proprietary software, it's in being bound to that software with a file format that cannot be used with something else
[23:57] <EriC^^> lost: is windows booting right now?
[23:57] <syadnom> docx, xlsx for example
[23:57] <syadnom> rely on reverse engineering a format and then the format evolves intentionally to thwart compatability
[23:58] <lost> EriC^^: even tho i have it installed in legacy mode right now how could i do it while i have it already installed and do i have to have a efi file or somthing like that?
[23:58] <syadnom> another one is the quickbooks database format
[23:58] <EriC^^> lost: windows and ubuntu both need to be installed in either legacy mode or uefi
[23:58] <syadnom> you are all but trapped on quickbooks :/
[23:58] <EriC^^> lost: you can't have 1 in uefi and 1 in legacy, it'll be hell
[23:58] <kuba7447> what happened to wayland?
[23:59] <syadnom> kuba7447, its still limping along
[23:59] <lost> EriC^^: i removed windows but i wanna get ubuntu to uefi and remove it from legacy and thats why i asked it in that context
[23:59] <kuba7447> so , we wont see wayland for a long time?


[00:10] <psusi> am I losing my mind or is grub-probe really broken?  with -d you give it a linux device, i.e. /dev/sda, but without it you give it a grub device don't you, i.e. (hd0)?
[00:12] <penguin42> it says path
[00:12] <penguin42> so I'd assume /boot
[00:13] <penguin42> yep, it seems to like that
[00:26] <psusi> oh yea... hrm... I could have sworn there was a way to do the reverse of -d /dev/whatever -> (hdx) translation... hrm..
[00:29] <penguin42> you mean without grepping the device.map :-)
[00:31] <cjwatson> In general there should be no need to resolve (hd*) from the OS; it should only matter that the mapping between OS devices and GRUB devices is consistent, not what it is
[00:31] <cjwatson> In rare cases you can use grub-mkdevicemap and map from that, but it's best avoided if you can
[00:33] <penguin42> is the script that builds the mainline-kernel builds available somewhere?  I'm just trying to replicate a build  and wanted to make sure I had it exactly the same
[14:52] <Bluefoxicy> now here's an idea
[14:53] <Bluefoxicy> a system service that waits for a user to ask it for a task, upon which it forks and drops privileges, creates a Unix socket in /tmp/, and accepts commands to download files
[14:54] <Bluefoxicy> system download service, like on Android.  Runs as the user, the download task listens for commands (like initiate new download or cancel download) while creating a separate download thread for each running  download (maximize download speed), etc.
[15:11] <maxb> I'm not seeing any clear benefit to that over traditional use of in-process library code
[16:04] <SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: I think what you are looking for is called "dbus"
[16:05] <Bluefoxicy> maxb: it doesn't die when the browser etc crashes or needs to be restarted because an automatic security update ran and it no longer functions.
[16:05] <SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: a dbus method call that downloads files to specified locations would indeed be a nice feature for backgrounding downloads, and it could of course notify users of their completion
[16:06] <Bluefoxicy> SpamapS: yes, or be queried for progress etc, told to relocate the file mid-download
[16:06] <Bluefoxicy> pause and resume
[16:06] <SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: your browser shouldn't be crashing btw. :)
[16:06] <Bluefoxicy> Chromium purports to pause and resume
[16:06] <Bluefoxicy> except if you pause, wait 30 seconds, continue, it just goes "DONE!" with a half-finished file
[16:06] <Bluefoxicy> then when you re-download it starts over.
[16:06] <SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: and downloads longer than 24 hours are rare, so the restart problem isn't really interesting
[16:06] <Bluefoxicy> Firefox did the same back in the day for me
[16:06] <Bluefoxicy> don't know if they ever made any web browser actually work
[16:07] <SpamapS> chrome/chromium rarely crash. Its their reason for existence.
[16:07] <Bluefoxicy> I've downloaded DVD ISOs
[16:07] <SpamapS> Google saw the browser as the most important piece of software on the machine and saw Firefox's model as too crash prone.
[16:08] <SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: me too.. and on crappy connections too. Still doesn't take > 24 hours. So delay your browser restart for 24 hours.
[16:08] <SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that there aren't many actual use cases for refactoring everything around this.
[16:08] <Bluefoxicy> also Chromium acts weird if you update it while it's running.    Still rare.
[16:09] <Bluefoxicy> (Chromium acts weird in that it continues to work, but suddenly render processes insist on crashing every time something AJAXy or HTML5y happens, until you restart it--partial functionality)
[16:09] <Bluefoxicy> SpamapS:  the biggest argument is probably that it would get everything related to a task (downloading files) in one place (except for torrents).
[16:09] <Bluefoxicy> And there's no need to refactor everything
[16:10] <Bluefoxicy> Making the feature available and letting everyone else decide if they're gonna use it is good enough
[16:10] <Bluefoxicy> like I said, my model was Android.  You can glance at the status screen in Android and it shows all the downloads that are happening, from all applications, and you can cancel any of them or open the file when it's done
[16:11] <Bluefoxicy> android apps have network access and media access, and could easily download files themselves in the same way.  Just nobody does it because the system supplies an API for that.
[16:12] <Bluefoxicy> anyway
[16:12] <Bluefoxicy> The argument's been made, no use haggling over it.
[16:14] <SpamapS> Bluefoxicy: Sounds like something for the brain storm site
[16:14] <Bluefoxicy> there's a brainstorm site?
[16:15] <SpamapS> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
[16:16] <Bluefoxicy> ahh
[16:43] <Bluefoxicy> "A lot of users are dissatisfied with the integration of the Amazon shopping lens in Ubuntu due to its many disadvantages such as the privacy issues or the use of the internet connection."
[16:43] <Bluefoxicy> sigh 'privacy' in this  day and age
[16:43] <Bluefoxicy> 1)  If there's no internet connection, I presume it fetches everything else and goes, "... ??? .... eh, oh well" and just doesn't do that and the user doesn't see it
[16:44] <Bluefoxicy> 2)  What 'privacy issues' are there with an amazon search?
[16:44] <Bluefoxicy> Seriously people go, "But, the data, it touched... a web site!  They might know who I am because they have, like, an IP in a database!"
[16:45] <Bluefoxicy> they have your IP in (gasp) an IP packet!  ... and apache logs.  Quit whining.
[16:46] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: It's appropriate to understand peoples concerns rather than trash them
[16:47] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: I'm careful to not leak search queries to external sources
[16:47] <Bluefoxicy> penguin42:  no, sometimes there's such a thing as a dead-end concern and it's appropriate to point it out.
[16:48] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: It's not a dead end to those of us who work with very confidential stuff, and the worry frankly is that the problem isn't understood
[16:48] <Bluefoxicy> okay I'll grant you that, with caveat.
[16:49] <Bluefoxicy> Why oh why are you working with confidential stuff on a leaky system?
[16:49] <Bluefoxicy> Like, why would you work with that stuff on Internet-connected Windows?
[16:49] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: It depends what's confidential about it - like I work with prerelease hardware or software not medical records
[16:50] <Bluefoxicy> ah
[16:50] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: So on my desktop where I do my normal work with other colleagues also working on stuff I need mail, web browsers etc
[16:51] <Bluefoxicy> and so if you search for <ambiguous meaningless project codename not related to the final product name> and it sends the search to Amazon, Amazon will sell it to AMD and they will get a leg up on the next big nVidia chipset
[16:51] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: But hey why should it be leaky - I run Luks encrypted disk, full firewall, heck on my work machine i have to run an annoying AV system; so I take all normal precautions
[16:52] <Bluefoxicy> encrypted disk doesn't do anything when the disk is mounted.
[16:52] <penguin42> correct
[16:52] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: Right but people need to do dev on a system where they have the normal tools
[16:52] <Bluefoxicy> k so we'll skip over all discussion of that.  The state-of-the-art industry seems to think encrypted disk is a version of a firewall :|
[16:52] <penguin42> yeh
[16:53] <Bluefoxicy> I'm still trying to wrap my head around how exactly anything useful is going to leak here
[16:53] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: My problem is that what I search for is sent in clear text for starters, then if someone wanted to then the data is there for analysis
[16:54] <Bluefoxicy> you don't send clear-text e-mails I take it
[16:54] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: Not for conf stuff, it's encrypted
[16:54] <Bluefoxicy> also Google makes their search history available for analysis, granted in aggregated form
[16:55] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: With encrypted IM, and for some stuff with smtp servers insisting that the other end was using crypt
[16:55] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: So your example of the meaningless project name is interesting; what's useful there is to tie that up with anything else that can give you an idea as to what the project name
[16:56] <Bluefoxicy> i.e. searching for relationships between "whistler" and anything else
[16:56] <penguin42> nod
[16:56] <Bluefoxicy> that was hilariously stupid
[16:56] <Bluefoxicy> "WHISTLER:  MICROSOFT'S CODENAME FOR A NEW OS!" again and again.  And then Longhorn.
[16:56] <Bluefoxicy> Microsoft is making a new version of Windows?  You don't say!
[16:57] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: For example a project I used to work on the fact that the company was working with a certain multinational was the secret because then it would have been obvious what they were doing
[16:57] <Bluefoxicy> anyway, point is I don't generally understand how any significant amount of CI can be leaked in a keyword or two
[16:57] <Bluefoxicy> if your stuff is that obvious, it's probably not a secret to anybody
[16:57] <Bluefoxicy> aha
[16:57] <Bluefoxicy> relationship graphs are larger than they appear.  Single contexted keywords can reveal a key relationship I guess.
[16:58] <penguin42> yep, especially if you had all the search data from an entire company coming from a single IP
[16:59] <Bluefoxicy> man I never get to work anywhere interesting.  I've worked for best buy, for SSA, for a broadcasting company...
[16:59] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: I mean it's the only time I worked on something that hairy; but we actually had someone post on a site about us 'They're at this address, this is the version of all their software on their external sites...not that we'd suggest anyone was to do anything' - and this wasn't military or anything, this was just a normal software dev project with a big company
[16:59] <Bluefoxicy> the most advantageous confidential data I could leak ever would be our new acquisitions of several stations
[16:59] <Bluefoxicy> which gives our competitors just about zero advantage
[16:59] <Bluefoxicy> the SEC might get mad about the leak because whoever is eavesdropping can use it to play the stock market.
[17:00] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: And it's your companys responsibility to be careful with it - so it's your company who has got to worry about leaks
[17:00] <Bluefoxicy> yes but understand the scope in my case
[17:00] <Bluefoxicy> if someone like, say, you got a hold of that and made a million dollars
[17:01] <Bluefoxicy> okay, you have probably $50k in savings tops, you might make $50k on a good tip
[17:01] <Bluefoxicy> nobody is going to care.
[17:01] <Bluefoxicy> YOU might get arrested
[17:01] <Bluefoxicy> I mean, I've never worked on anytihng that was that interesting :|
[17:01] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: Right, now lets go down a notch - what if it was your doctors receptionists desktop?
[17:02] <Bluefoxicy> probably boring searches for "file on Jones, Smith"
[17:02] <Bluefoxicy> nobody is going to search for "Jones, Smith, HIV"
[17:02] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: The point is it's not just the guy who makes the $50k who gets arrested, it's the IT guy and director at the firm that leaked it for not taking care
[17:02] <Bluefoxicy> (in the US, HIV is a big deal--for a while it was illegal for doctors to make note in medical record that a patient had HIV because it was considered 'too confidential')
[17:04] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: I don't have a problem with their being a tie in with someone like Amazon, or even it being done in Unity, I just think the 'obvious' thing should be reasonably secure; normal people shouldn't have to think about basic security
[17:04] <Bluefoxicy> that is a lot of stuff in one sentence.
[17:04] <penguin42> yeh, sorry
[17:05] <Bluefoxicy> Reasonable default security yes, I can agree with that.    That's the only real way you're going to get computer security without end user awareness.
[17:06] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: No my point is the opposite!
[17:07] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: My point is what we do is to make the normal GUIs they deal with doing everything as safely as possible so they don't have to worry about it
[17:07] <Bluefoxicy> MY point is that you may as well give up the battle entirely if you want a brainless end user to use anything more capable than an NES without explaining basic security to them.
[17:07] <Bluefoxicy> not e-mailing your credit card information to some random Nigerian Prince that wants to give you $25 million is "basic security"
[17:08] <Bluefoxicy> Bell LaPadula, firewall configuration, network topology, and IDS is not "basic security"
[17:08] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: Right, that's fair
[17:08] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: But they wouldn't expect everything they type in their search box to be floating over their wifi
[17:08] <Bluefoxicy> "Sending information out to the Internet and knowing where it's going" is basic security
[17:08] <Bluefoxicy> yeah
[17:09] <Bluefoxicy> though if something gave me Amazon search results, I would have a hard time explaining how that stuff didn't just go to Amazon
[17:09] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: So when the user thinks 'internet' they should think 'security' - but are they thinking 'internet' when they hit search?
[17:09] <Bluefoxicy> they are on Android
[17:09] <Bluefoxicy> probably not on a desktop.
[17:10] <Bluefoxicy> heh
[17:10] <Bluefoxicy> that's changing though.
[17:10] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: So as long as you can explain to your users to take care 'on the internet' and not send stuff over the internet when they're not expecting it then I'm happy
[17:10] <Bluefoxicy> The most popular browsers ALL send everything you type in the URL bar out in real time
[17:10] <Bluefoxicy> real-time DNS look-up and auto-complete, Google searches, Bing searches
[17:12] <penguin42> Bluefoxicy: I guess having just had to deal with that type of stuff I like to know where my data is going; as long as I know what's going public and expect it then I'm reasonably happy
[17:12] <Bluefoxicy> Immunology suggests that when an infection becomes so wide-spread, the general biosphere must adapt by becoming tolerant rather than immune--cats and primates are not harmed by their respective variants of some viruses that KILL humans, the only difference being the viruses for those animals can infect those animals' cells
[17:12] <Bluefoxicy> penguin42:  yeah, I guess I can understand that
[17:12] <Bluefoxicy> at the same time, I think it's going to turn into a losing battle, regardless of merit
[17:14] <Bluefoxicy> penguin42: it's like how you need to answer a simple math problem to get an account on Ubuntu QA
[17:14] <penguin42> why who are they paying to answer those now?
[17:15] <Bluefoxicy> This is a thing we've accepted.  35% of the adults in my city can't add 5 + 7
[17:15] <Bluefoxicy> (my city's high school graduation rate is below 60%)
[17:15] <penguin42> youch
[17:16] <Bluefoxicy> To be fair, those people can't read or write either, so I don't think we should worry about disenfranchising anyone :P
[17:16] <Bluefoxicy> that's what I need
[17:16] <Bluefoxicy> I need a job in education.
[17:17] <Bluefoxicy> I need to fix the school system here.  We have budget problems, in both directions--not enough money, but $13,000 per student per year and the facilities are falling apart and books are 40 years old and shared between students.
[17:19] <Bluefoxicy> it's been a long time since I contributed anything to society--I worked at the US Social Security administration for a while, and now I work for a company that broadcasts network news media