[12:07] <LaserJock> go Matthew go!
[12:07] <LaserJock> books books books!!!
[12:07] <LaserJock> :-)
[12:09] <mdke> Madpilot: my titles are your titles vary a little bit
[12:09] <Madpilot> how so?
[12:09] <mdke> my pt_BR is http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/pt_BR/index.html
[12:10] <mdke> Guia do Desktop Ubuntu
[12:10] <mdke> yours is Guia Desktop Ubuntu
[12:10] <Madpilot> ah... any idea which is more correct?
[12:10] <mdke> that's fine obviously, but I'm getting a bit confused between all these different types of portuguese
[12:10] <mdke> it's going to be hard to tell them apart on the store
[12:10] <Madpilot> hmm
[12:11] <mdke> do you know where your strings come from?
[12:11] <Madpilot> for the UDG ones, from bookinfo.xml via robotgeek's script
[12:12] <mdke> i can't see that string in there
[12:13] <mdke> ah, it's in the omf file
[12:14] <Madpilot> ah, sorry. Yeah, it's from the omf
[12:14] <Madpilot> should I change that pt_BR string on the UDG cover?
[12:14] <mdke> nope, if it's in the omf it must be fine
[12:15] <Madpilot> OK
[12:15] <Madpilot> bunch of KDG covers going up now
[12:15] <mdke> Madpilot: can you upload the english ones too pls?
[12:15] <Madpilot> sure
[12:15] <mdke> thx
[12:15] <Madpilot> thought they were already in the directory, but maybe not
[12:16] <mdke> could be
[12:17] <Madpilot> no, they're not, actually
[12:17] <Madpilot> KDG it, es & pt_BR covers up
[12:18] <Madpilot> again, I can't get anything intelligible out of the ko files :(
[12:18] <mdke> damn
[12:18] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: ping
[12:18] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, hi
[12:18] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: did you get my quer?
[12:19] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, yeah, sorry, just overlooked it.  We need Packaging_sv, not pt_Br
[12:44] <LaserJock> \o/
[12:46] <Madpilot> that's the only guide the Brazillians *haven't* gotten around to translating yet, it seems :)
[12:46] <mdke> yeah, they are crazy those brazilians
[12:47] <LaserJock> grrr
[12:47] <mdke> koreans aren't bad either
[12:47] <mdke> translation machines
[12:47] <LaserJock> I'll have to go down there and crack the whip ;-)
[12:47] <Madpilot> yeah, except that I can't get intelligible strings out of the ko files, or the Chinese ones...
[12:47] <Madpilot> anyway, Packaging_sv.png is up
[12:47] <mdke> getting it
[12:48] <mdke> Madpilot: is it the script that has the problem with the chinese fonts, or inkscape?
[12:48] <Madpilot> my whole system, it looks like
[12:48] <mdke> did you try copying the strings from help.u.c?
[12:48] <Madpilot> not yet - I'd try that
[12:50] <mdke> man the packaging guide is a snip at $6.29
[12:50] <mdke> I wonder if Lulu thinks it is lower quality than the others
[12:50] <Madpilot> hmm, where is the non-English stuff at help.u.c, mdke?
[12:50] <mdke> Madpilot: substitute C in the url for the language code (zh_CN, ko)
[12:50] <Madpilot> ah
[12:51] <mdke> or if you want the index, index.zh_CN.html
[12:51] <Madpilot> wtf? gnome-panel just went nuts on me...
[12:52] <Madpilot> ...and again. Hopefully it's settled down now... :|
[12:54] <Madpilot> I'm going to re-install ubuntu-desktop and that mass of non-English fonts I always delete, see if that gets me useful Chinese & Korean display
[12:54] <mdke> ah, possibly
[12:56] <mdke> LaserJock: so which are missing languages?
[12:56] <mdke> Italian Desktop Guide has it, at least in my control panel
[12:57] <LaserJock> Ubuntus paketeringguide
[12:57] <LaserJock> Guia para Servidores Ubuntu
[12:57] <mdke> those both have it in my control panel
[12:57] <mdke> are you sure?
[12:58] <LaserJock> Guia Kubuntu Desktop
[12:58] <mdke> must be a bug
[12:58] <mdke> stupid lulu
[12:58] <LaserJock> it's blank here
[12:58] <mdke> yeah, I see the problem
[12:59] <LaserJock> yay!
[12:59] <Madpilot> does Lulu actually have a bugzilla or something similar?
[01:00] <LaserJock> or a Mattzilla ;-)
[01:01] <mdke> Madpilot: forum
[01:01] <Madpilot> close enough
[01:02] <Madpilot> OK, reinstalling that 100Mb of non-eng fonts has given me useable ko & zh fonts
[01:02] <mdke> \o/, as LaserJock would say
[01:02] <Madpilot> and made a giant mess of my font listings again, but whatever...
[01:02] <mdke> nice one
[01:03] <LaserJock> I learned \o/ not too long ago
[01:03] <LaserJock> I think it's great
[01:03] <mdke> me too
[01:07] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_zh_CN.png & UDG_ko.png both up
[01:08] <mdke> oh, rock. Now to find out which guide is guide
[01:09] <LaserJock> hehe
[01:12] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/KDG_ko.png
[01:13] <Madpilot> mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_ko.png
[01:13] <mdke> i found the image, just not the book
[01:13] <mdke> I will go by process of elimination
[01:14] <LaserJock> mdke: so lulu.com/ubuntu-doc is ready for people to start ordering?
[01:14] <mdke> LaserJock: hope so. You think we should order a final test book?
[01:15] <LaserJock> no, I was just wondering when I could tell my Grandpa to go pick up a copy of the PG ;-)
[01:15] <mdke> Madpilot: something is wrong with the UDG_zh_CN.png (it has a massive Ubuntu logo coming out the right hand side
[01:16] <Madpilot> mdke, I hit the wrong button in Inkscape.  Oh well
[01:19] <Madpilot> for the non-Latin alphabet stuff?
[01:20] <mdke> yeah, it just comes up blank I think
[01:20] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Packaging_ko.png
[01:20] <mdke> no biggie
[01:22] <mdke> man that's hot: http://www.lulu.com/content/324256
[01:23] <LaserJock> hmm, what is that?
[01:23] <LaserJock> is it the PG?
[01:23] <mdke> not wholly sure
[01:24] <mdke> I think it is Chinese Desktop Guide
[01:24] <Madpilot> mdke, Language string is blank there too
[01:24] <Madpilot> that's ko
[01:24] <Madpilot> Korean
[01:24] <mdke> sure?
[01:24] <Madpilot> actually, no, it's Chinese. Sorry
[01:24] <mdke> I think the ones with "UBuntu" are chinese
[01:24] <LaserJock> I was trying to figure out by page number, but it's hard to tell
[01:24] <mdke> korean packaging guide now up
[01:24] <Madpilot> yeah, the ko ones are pure Korean script, the Chinese ones are mixed for some reason
[01:25] <LaserJock> \o/ I can't read it but it is cool :-)
[01:27] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_ko.png
[01:27] <mdke> no wonder I can't find the korean desktop guide, it isn't there
[01:28] <LaserJock> how many translations did the server guide get done in?
[01:28] <mdke> must have forgotten to upload it
[01:28] <mdke> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations
[01:28] <LaserJock> ah great
[01:29] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_zh_CN.png
[01:30] <Madpilot> which is, I think, the last of the covers for now?
[01:30] <mdke> I think you're right
[01:30] <Madpilot> yay
[01:30] <mdke> Madpilot: thanks so much
[01:31] <Madpilot> no problem.
[01:31] <Madpilot> for next time, we need to get robotgeek to finish his script, it works only for the UDG omf files right now
[01:31] <mdke> right.
[01:31] <mdke> there are likely to be more languages to come :)
[01:32] <Madpilot> during Dapper, or for Edgy? (do we keep publishing translations during the life of the release?
[01:32] <mdke> yeah, more for Dapper
[01:33] <Madpilot> OK. Keep me posted. I should also write up a short howto on producing the covers, and stick a bunch of the SVG files on the wiki somewhere
[01:35] <mdke> Madpilot: will do.
[01:36] <LaserJock> mwuahahaha
[01:37] <LaserJock> that was my "doc team rules... and will take over the world" laugh :-)
[01:37] <mdke> we are pretty badass, it has to be said
[01:37] <LaserJock> heck yeah
[01:38] <Madpilot> yay us! ;)
[01:39] <mdke> .... and I'm spent
[01:39] <mdke> no idea how many combinations of korean covers and book I've just uploaded
[01:39] <mdke> let's hope the right ones
[01:40] <mdke> hehe
[01:40] <Madpilot> mdke, might want to ping one of the ko translators for a sanity check :)
[01:40] <crimsun> "wants to" or "has to"?
[01:40] <crimsun> I haven't even had time to spec out what I'd like in Edgy
[01:40] <mdke> will do
[01:41] <LaserJock> crimsun: I could always pull an  \sh but "wants to" is starting to turn into "has to" for sure.
[01:41] <Madpilot> mdke, all the prices in Lulu seem to still be listed as "from $0.00"?
[01:42] <mdke> Madpilot: yeah, it must be because you can download them for free
[01:42] <Madpilot> ah
[01:42] <LaserJock> that's so cool
[01:42] <mdke> slightly confusing, but still
[01:43] <Madpilot> mdke, can we change the order the items are listed in? Put the English translations first, say?
[01:43] <LaserJock> yeah and group them by doc
[01:44] <LaserJock> gosh we are picky
[01:44] <Madpilot> heh
[01:44] <mdke> that would be very nice, but I'm not sure
[01:44] <Madpilot> OK, just a thought
[01:45] <mdke> oh great, we can
[01:45] <mdke> more than one column too, if we want
[01:46] <LaserJock> cool
[01:46] <mdke> how to order languages?
[01:47] <mdke> and do I sort by language first, or by book?
[01:47] <Madpilot> by book, I'd say
[01:48] <LaserJock> hmm, good question
[01:48] <mdke> so all the UDGs first, then all the KDGs, etc?
[01:48] <Madpilot> I think so
[01:48] <LaserJock> I'd say book, but then it would makes it harder for people wanting to look at all material in their language
[01:48] <Madpilot> UDG-KDG-XDG-Server-Packaging?
[01:49] <LaserJock> yeah, yeah. put me last ;p
[01:50] <mdke> for now, I'm going to do it by language
[01:50] <LaserJock> I guess it would come down to this, do you think people will want to look for a particular doc or for what's available in their language?
[01:50] <mdke> I can't be bothered to work out which is which of the koreans again
[01:50] <Madpilot> mdke, fair enough ;)
[01:50] <LaserJock> hehe, that's a good rationale
[01:50] <mdke> http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
[01:51] <mdke> so hot
[01:51] <Madpilot> looks great
[01:52] <LaserJock> mdke: sabdfl needs that URL :-)
[01:53] <mdke> we'll send him a free book or something ;)
[01:53] <Madpilot> so does The Fridge
[01:53] <mdke> I'll send a few emails, after checking with the translators that everything is ok
[01:53] <LaserJock> mdke: we should have the doc team sign it before we send it to him ;-)
[01:53] <mdke> aww
[01:54] <LaserJock> Rock Stars ;-)
[01:54] <LaserJock> hahaha
[01:56] <LaserJock> have other distros done anything like this? I think it is quite a cool idea
[01:56] <Madpilot> ...bloody character limit in /topic...
[01:56] <LaserJock> hehe, we could probably ditch the Next meeting: bit for now
[01:57] <LaserJock> or at least put a date
[01:57] <Madpilot> there
[01:59] <LaserJock> hmm, anybody know what the propsed Ubuntu Reference Manual would be about?
[01:59] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: reference manual?
[02:00] <mdke> no idea, it's bhuvan's idea
[02:00] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: it's on the meeting agenda
[02:01] <LaserJock> there are a few ideas I had but since I'm doing the Developer's Reference I don't think I'll have time in Edgy :(
[02:03] <LaserJock> what did you guys think about the "why don't you use QA like ubuntuguide.org" bug comment?
[02:04] <mdke> I didn't see that
[02:04] <mdke> fortunately :)
[02:05] <LaserJock> it was at the end of that fax bug
[02:06] <LaserJock> "In contrast, I find the Ubuntu documentation unfriendly, overly technical, and frustrating to find what I want."
[02:06] <mdke> see ot
[02:06] <mdke> it
[02:06] <LaserJock> I'm wondering if this guy is way off or if he has a point
[02:07] <mdke> bit of both, I guess
[02:07] <LaserJock> I really don't see the "overly technical" part
[02:07] <Madpilot> well, the current UDG is closer to ubuntuguide.org in style than most of the stuff on the wiki, I think
[02:07] <crimsun> LaserJock: url? (I just now subbed)
[02:07] <LaserJock> I wonder if the comment was mostly for the wiki
[02:08] <LaserJock> crimsun: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/48298
[02:08] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 48298 in ubuntu-doc "There is no mention of how to fax" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
[02:08] <LaserJock> last comment
[02:11] <crimsun> I definitely don't see the "overly technical" hint
[02:11] <mdke> I hate qa
[02:12] <mdke> what is the difference between 1. How do I install a fax?, and 2. Installing a fax
[02:12] <crimsun> ...unless he's arguing there's no sense in explaining the differences? [e.g., http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/music.html]
[02:14] <LaserJock> I guess he is mainly saying putting it into more specific sections, "How do I print to Ubuntu from Windows?" as opposed to looking in a "Printing" section
[02:14] <LaserJock> but I'm guessing that search funtions would help that
[02:14] <crimsun> but the more specific one gets, the more drilling down occurs
[02:16] <crimsun> even if you were to have "How do I print in Ubuntu?" and then "How do I print to Ubuntu from Windows?", it's still "How do I print?"
[02:16] <crimsun> welcome to hierarchy hell
[02:17] <LaserJock> although I did find ubunguguide.org fast since I'd just use FF's find to get what I wanted
[02:17] <LaserJock> it wasn't really informative as a guide though
[02:18] <LaserJock> it was just quick and dirty
[02:18] <LaserJock> which I think is tempting but people really should understand why they are doing what they are doing
[02:19] <mdke> sure, it's tricky to make stuff informative AND accessible
[02:19] <mdke> it can be done though
[02:19] <crimsun> do we need different perspectives, like "user manual" vs. "technical manual"?
[02:20] <crimsun> [imo too much work]
[02:20] <mdke> you're right, i think
[02:20] <mdke> also because we can make docs which are suitable for both, I hoep
[02:23] <LaserJock> hehe, I thought "technical manual" was call RTFM ;-)
[02:23] <crimsun> LaserJock: it can be
[02:23] <Madpilot> night, mdke
[02:23] <crimsun> 'night mdke
[02:23] <mdke> night
[02:24] <LaserJock> cya mdke
[02:24] <LaserJock> I'd like to see more advanced user docs, but I just don't know how feasible that is
[02:33] <Burgundavia> it was always my opinion that advanced users are already well served by help
[02:33] <Burgundavia> grandma is the hard use case
[02:34] <LaserJock> yes, but to be honest I'm not much help to grandma
[02:34] <LaserJock> so it is easier for me to think about people like me
[02:34] <LaserJock> but you're absolutely right
[02:34] <Burgundavia> things like the packaging docs are good things
[02:35] <LaserJock> I'm still stuck on the idea of having an introductory guide to Bash and Python scripting
[02:36] <Burgundavia> python in Ubuntu would be a great guide
[02:36] <Burgundavia> make it a little bit marketing, by talking about how Ubuntu rocks for Python
[02:36] <LaserJock> right
[02:36] <LaserJock> and I've noticed AppleScript on OS X
[02:36] <LaserJock> and then new Automator thing
[02:37] <LaserJock> so people can actually use scripting to do "normal" things on their computer
[02:38] <LaserJock> I think that is pretty powerful
[02:39] <LaserJock> I was talking to our sys admin and he was saying that he helps people alot just by taking a couple minutes to write a script that automates stuff people were doing by hand
[02:42] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: people keep bringing up "WTF, why does Ubuntu ship python by default". I'd like to show them a reason. But maybe that's too ambitious for now
[02:44] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: if it is specced well, you will not need to write everything
[02:46] <LaserJock> well, I might try to spec it out and see what people think
[02:46] <LaserJock> it is Edgy after all, we gotta get some crack in ;-)
[02:48] <LaserJock> ok, I'm off to try to convince an undergrad to work for me this summer :)
[03:18] <Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco
[03:18] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco: have you had a chance to chat with Joel yet?
[03:19] <jsgotangco> yeah last saturday
[03:19] <jsgotangco> he's still in school and currently having a dilemma on pursuing development and studies, i said focus on school
[03:20] <jsgotangco> since its about to start in a week here
[04:00] <mgalvin> woohoo dead tree docs :)
[04:02] <Madpilot> with shiny covers, too ;)
[04:04] <mgalvin> yea, they look great, excellent work everybody!
[04:05] <mgalvin> so people can actually order they now?
[04:05] <mgalvin> s/they/them/
[04:05] <Madpilot> apparently. Matt East has been taking care of the actual Lulu storefront stuff
[04:06] <mgalvin> cool
[04:08] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: very special issue, lol
[04:09] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: not certain that humour translates out of north america
[04:09] <mgalvin> Burgundavia: haha, jdub wrote that
[04:11] <jsgotangco> i dont get it myself
[04:11] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_special_episode
[04:11] <Burgundavia> it is an 80s TV reference
[04:14] <jsgotangco> heh let's make every week then special
[04:14] <jsgotangco> lol
[04:15] <mgalvin> :)
[04:16] <jsgotangco> im sure a distro like edubuntu can produce tons of specials
[04:16] <jsgotangco> haha
[04:16] <mgalvin> jsgotangco: will be cool when you are in paris, you could be the summit reporter while you are there ;)
[04:16] <mgalvin> are you going there for the whole thing?
[04:17] <jsgotangco> "this week, we tackle the life-changing episodes of people in sub-saharan africa who got to use edubuntu for the first time"
[04:17] <jsgotangco> yeah when i get my visa this week
[04:17] <mgalvin> ha
[04:17] <mgalvin> cool
[04:18] <jsgotangco> hopefully i get to finish all my TODOs in my list before the trip
[04:19] <jsgotangco> or else i'll see myself working in the plane lol
[04:52] <Burgundavia> oh joy, revert war on DVD:RIP
[04:53] <robitaille> on sounder?
[04:54] <Burgundavia> no, wiki page
[04:54] <Burgundavia> I change the installation method away from apt-get and the "creator" reverted
[04:54] <robitaille> :)
[04:55] <Burgundavia> so I reverted and added a note
[04:58] <Burgundavia> ugh, what should I do with these: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HoaryBeagleInstallHowto?highlight=%28apt-get+install%29
[05:03] <Burgundavia> shall I create a Category504Only ?
[05:05] <Burgundavia> mdke_, jsgotangco ^
[05:13] <Burgundavia> Laser_away: deal with this wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch?highlight=%28apt-get+install%29
[07:51] <jsgotangco> robitaille: ping?
[07:56] <robitaille> jsgotangco:  pong
[07:58] <jsgotangco> robitaille: hey i just have one q if you're familiar with it
[07:58] <jsgotangco> robitaille: what makes a software to be part of "restricted"?
[07:59] <robitaille> non-free, but supported somewhat   http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components
[08:01] <robitaille> currently the only things in there I believes are some binary only drivers and kernel modules
[08:01] <jsgotangco> as opposed to multiverse that is non-free and unsupported?
[08:01] <robitaille> yes.
[08:01] <jsgotangco> argghh i missed that page entirely, thanks!
[08:03] <robitaille> interestingly  both my computers don't need restricted, so I usally remove it from my sources.list, remove the packages, and that make my kernel upgrades a bit smaller  (and my computers a bit more free and open :) )
[08:04] <robitaille> I still can't believe the package vrms exists
[11:00] <mdke> Madpilot: I'm adding a "to be done" section to the wiki page, turns out I may have missed a few
[11:00] <Madpilot> ok
[11:05] <Madpilot> mdke, what's the URL of that page off your own wiki page? I've managed to loose it...
[11:07] <mdke> Madpilot: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations
[11:08] <mdke> just uploading UDG_hr now
[11:09] <Madpilot> I can have the cover for you in a minute or two
[11:12] <Madpilot> ...if Hungarian is hr, what's hu? thought that was Hungarian...
[11:13] <mdke> oops
[11:13] <mdke> hr is croatian
[11:13] <Madpilot> ah
[11:13] <mdke> that's the one we want
[11:13] <mdke> russian seems to be ok too, except there is a strange error with the pdf
[11:13] <Madpilot> OK, so I've got the right strings, I just thought it was a different language ;)
[11:15] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_hr.png
[11:15] <mdke> thanks dude. I'm going to work on russian and polish now
[11:16] <Madpilot> OK, ru & pl covers coming up :)
[11:16] <mdke> i'm not sure which guides are ready from them, presumably at least UDG
[11:18] <Madpilot> I'm doing ru & pl UDG covers now, let me know tomorrow if we need more/different ones
[11:19] <mdke> ok, thanks a lot
[11:21] <Madpilot> UDG_ru & UDG_pl both up
[11:21] <mdke> great, I'll get those sorted, thanks matey
[11:22] <Madpilot> np
[11:22] <Madpilot> it's almost 0230 here, I'm going to crash.
[11:22] <mdke> yeah, good night
[11:22] <Madpilot> email me if we need more covers done
[11:23] <Madpilot> I'm also going to stick a howto on the wiki somewhere so people can do their own :)
[11:23] <jsgotangco> yeah
[11:23] <mdke> that would be great
[11:23] <jsgotangco> wow they're big
[11:23] <Madpilot> jsgotangco, 300dpi images
[11:23] <Madpilot> or rather, once Lulu resizes them, they become 300dpi images
[11:24] <rob> hi guys
[11:24] <rob> mdke, well done on lulu
[11:25] <Madpilot> hi rob
[11:25] <mdke> rob: thanks, and Madpilot too for the covers. Thanks for the idea
[11:25] <rob> yes, Madpilot too!
[11:25] <rob> did you get the patch I emailed?
[11:26] <mdke> i saw it on the list
[11:27] <rob> ah ok, good
[11:28] <jsgotangco> yeah print requires 300dpi
[11:28] <Madpilot> jsgotangco, at a minimum, yeah
[11:29] <jsgotangco> some even require bleed
[05:14] <jsgotangco> mdke: can't you drop by in paris even for a day?
[05:17] <mdke> when is it?
[05:18] <jsgotangco> 18-23
[05:18] <jsgotangco> err 19 rather
[05:18] <jsgotangco> 18 is the dinner
[05:18] <jsgotangco> i arrive on the 17th
[05:18] <mdke> hmm. I'm picking up my gf from the airport that weekend, then working that week
[05:18] <mdke> it'll have to be another time
[05:23] <mdke> man there is gonna be some serious flamage on that last sounder thread
[05:31] <jsgotangco> ethical ubuntu?
[05:31] <jsgotangco> heh
[05:32] <jsgotangco> i could only laugh at the irony of the spec
[05:40] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: hmmm these mdz emails about the newsletter seems to hint on making us do it most of the time and have little docteam work heh
[05:40] <jsgotangco> post-release braindumping lol
[05:41] <mgalvin> just what we need, more work ;)
[05:41] <mgalvin> its cool though, they are good ideas
[05:41] <mgalvin> i think as it grows more people will probably
[05:41] <mgalvin> help
[05:42] <mgalvin> in which we will need to better organize it as well
[05:43] <jeffsch> perhaps put it on the docteam site
[05:43] <mgalvin> i was thinking of a developer of the week, something like upload stats and such... but i think it would be seb128 every week :)
[05:44] <mgalvin> jeffsch: we should link to it from there
[05:44] <mdke> jsgotangco: now's your chance to ask jeffsch about the styleguide license
[05:44] <jeffsch> and if you put a docteam member of the week, it would always be mdke
[05:45] <jsgotangco> mdke: actually we talk everyday, it just didnt get into my mind
[05:45] <jsgotangco> jeffsch: do you remember putting the styleguide under Publid Domain?
[05:45] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-January/004798.html
[05:45] <mdke> how fast was that
[05:45] <mdke> jeffsch: thoughts on this gender convention question?
[05:46] <jsgotangco> lol ok thanks for reminding me
[05:46] <jsgotangco> january!
[05:46] <jsgotangco> long time ago!
[05:47] <jeffsch> mdke: it will be difficult to come to a consensus
[05:47] <jeffsch> there are so many different ways to handle it
[05:48] <jeffsch> some are very easy, like "he" means "she" too
[05:48] <jeffsch> others require rewriting the paragraph
[05:48] <jeffsch> plus each culture has its biases
[05:48] <jeffsch> plus each translator....
[05:48] <jeffsch> on and on
[05:49] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:49] <jsgotangco> ours for example is very maternal...
[05:50] <mdke> jeffsch: i'm used to "he" means "she" myself
[05:50] <jsgotangco> we dont address the gender explicitly at all but its implied in some phrases
[05:51] <mdke> i meant just for English really, then we can allow translators to go their own way
[05:51] <jsgotangco> i think the bug was more on Rosetta rather than the document as well
[05:51] <jsgotangco> (how rosetta allows for such in the system)
[05:51] <mdke> well, more or less.
[05:51] <jsgotangco> but then they're strings..
[05:52] <jeffsch> personally, i think when you put a note at the beginning that says "he" means "she", then you are copping out
[05:52] <mdke> I think we should talk about English though, rather than the bug
[05:52] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:52] <mdke> jeffsch: "copping out" being a bad thing?
[05:52] <jeffsch> you're saying "yeah, i know there's a "she", but I can't be bothered to accomodate her
[05:53] <jeffsch> mdke: yeah. it means being lazy or unconcerned
[05:53] <mdke> we could invent a new pronoun then, which means both
[05:53] <mdke> I don't really think it does mean that though
[05:53] <jeffsch> some writing books have whole chapters on the gender thing
[05:54] <jeffsch> it's an issue that is still in flux
[05:54] <jeffsch> a single method has not yet been settled
[05:54] <mdke> do you think we should set a policy for it, or not worry? Not doing so might be doubly copping out
[05:55] <jeffsch> ideally, there should be a policy as well as examples on the various ways of handling it
[05:55] <jsgotangco> jeffsch: not being old school but does strunk & white have anything about this? i dont remember at all
[05:55] <jeffsch> it could probably take a chapter in the styleguide
[05:55] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: hold on, i'll check
[05:55] <mdke> i think we should deal with it
[05:57] <jeffsch> on page 60 of my copy
[05:58] <jsgotangco> "Alternatively, put all controversial nouns in the plural and avoid the choice of sex altogether"
[05:58] <jsgotangco> "although you may find your prose sounding more general and diffuse as a result"
[05:58] <jsgotangco> its mostly geared towards the male gender though
[06:00] <jsgotangco> "The use of he as a pronoun for nouns embracing both genders is a simple, practical convention rooted in the beginnings fo the English language"
[06:01] <jeffsch> "Currently however, many writers find the use of generic he or his to rename indefinite antecedents limiting or offensive>"
[06:02] <jsgotangco> check the author lol
[06:02] <jsgotangco> kidding
[06:02] <mdke> this one uses he or she randomly
[06:03] <jsgotangco> yes its also recommended to mix
[06:03] <jsgotangco> to make it not sound repetitive and boring  too
[06:04] <jsgotangco> we'll have to write in the 3rd person
[06:04] <jsgotangco> or plural
[06:04] <jsgotangco> but that is avoiding it altogether
[06:06] <jsgotangco> i cannot say really, it is quite hard to describe a lot of things in the 3rd person
[06:07] <jsgotangco> well not so hard, but depends on the style of the writer as well
[06:07] <jeffsch> are there any specific instances in our current docs where it could be and issue?
[06:07] <jsgotangco> well instructions per se are 3rd person
[06:08] <jeffsch> or was it just the bug thing?
[06:08] <jsgotangco> the bug is more of rosetta not havign the facility for such
[06:08] <jsgotangco> rather than the document
[06:10] <jeffsch> hmmm... is there a facility for a translator to add translator notes to a doc?
[06:12] <jsgotangco> hmmm come to think of it
[06:12] <jsgotangco> i dont see it
[06:12] <jsgotangco> only translator-credits
[06:12] <jsgotangco> but *only* if there is a provision for such
[06:14] <jeffsch> perhaps an empty para in an appropriate place in the english docs. the translators can leave it empty or stick in some notes
[06:14] <mdke> yes, that won't be a problem
[06:14] <mdke> I'm more concerned about what to do for the English :)
[06:15] <jeffsch> perhaps we can cop out and ask ubuntu-women to write that section of the styleguide for us ;)
[06:16] <mdke> not a bad idea to get their views actually
[06:17] <jsgotangco> hey that's a good idea
[06:17] <jsgotangco> they're asking for guidance anyway
[06:17] <jsgotangco> let's give 'em work
[06:18] <jeffsch> last ask them rather than giving them
[06:21] <jeffsch> come up with a preliminary spec and ask for input and advice
[06:26] <LaserJock> umm, so does the doc team offically handle the newsletter?
[06:26] <LaserJock> I'm getting so confused by all the newlettery things running about
[06:27] <Burgwork> LaserJock, you around?
[06:27] <mdke> he's right here!
[06:27] <jsgotangco> even though its basically me, mgalvin and Riddell who started it, anyone can actually dive in
[06:27] <Burgwork> mdke, right, just noticed that
[06:29] <mgalvin> i just figured it was best to associate it the the doc team at large since it is docs, although its not meant to force anyone to anything
[06:29] <LaserJock> I like the idea, personally
[06:29] <Burgwork> yep, and the marketing team is busy with other, useless, things
[06:29] <LaserJock> associating with a team is a good idea, IMO
[06:29] <mdke> this would be ideal for the marketing team
[06:30] <mdke> but I'm starting to get the impression there isn't really one
[06:30] <mdke> corey forwarded them the email about the newsletter, no responses
[06:31] <mgalvin> there is one, they just don't do anything... ok i will stop being mean ;)
[06:31] <jsgotangco> well
[06:31] <Burgwork> they do, they just don't integrate with the rest of us
[06:31] <LaserJock> ok, but the individual derivatives have there own newsletter, right? but this one is sort of the Ubntu project as a whole?
[06:32] <mgalvin> i think jenda is part of that team, we started talking the other day, i've got to catch up with him again
[06:32] <jsgotangco> no the derivative newsletters are history
[06:32] <jsgotangco> were just merging everything
[06:32] <jeffsch> who is the intended audience?
[06:33] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: history :(
[06:33] <mgalvin> jeffsch: internal management, developers and community at large
[06:33] <jsgotangco> yeah like we're issue 1 and we got closed heh
[06:33] <jsgotangco> at least kubuntu got to issue 2
[06:33] <Burgwork> mgalvin, jenda is indeed part of that team
[06:33] <jenda> me?
[06:34] <jenda> what team? sorry sooo busy... (with ubuntu now)
[06:34] <apokryphos> mdke, Burgwork: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/CommonQuestions
[06:34] <apokryphos> feedback greatly appreciated =)
[06:34] <jenda> (ping me if you need me)
[06:34] <mgalvin> jenda: i was just saying i need to catch up with you at some point to talk about the newletter/marking relationship
[06:34] <mgalvin> i am busy too, so not right now ;)
[06:35] <jenda> OK :)
[06:36] <jsgotangco> its also one way to jumpstart the marketing team
[06:36] <Burgwork> yep, as long it doesn't fall on the floor
[06:37] <mgalvin> bbl
[06:38] <mdke> apokryphos: will do. Some structure would work, dividing the page up a bit
[06:38] <LaserJock> Burgwork: btw, I'm not sure what to do with that packaging wiki page
[06:38] <Burgwork> LaserJock, can it be killed and redirected to your packaging guide?
[06:39] <apokryphos> mdke: there is a little, but it's tough to do completely as it's too large for no sections, too small for general sections.
[06:39] <mdke> hmm
[06:40] <LaserJock> Burgwork: well, that has been something on my mind. I'm not sure if the PG should obsolete wiki pages. I like having devs and wannabes use the wiki pages for braindumps and stuff which I can then clean up and put in the PG
[06:40] <apokryphos> over time that would probably be easier (if it grew), but at the moment it's not a s clear I'd say.
[06:40] <LaserJock> but many of the pages right now are wrong, for the wrong release, or are really not needed anymore
[06:41] <mdke> apokryphos: it mustn't grow, I think it's already too big tbh. If it grows, you'll just start making another duplicate guide
[06:41] <jenda> Can you folks help me get the Czech team included here? http://www.ubuntu.com/support/local?action=show&redirect=support%2Fsupportoptions%2Flocal
[06:41] <jenda> who should i contact?
[06:41] <apokryphos> mdke: what's the other appropriate guide that you think it would be a duplicate of?
[06:42] <mdke> jenda: I've been doing that recently
[06:42] <mdke> apokryphos: like, all documentation
[06:42] <jenda> So you could do that if I give you the necessary facts?
[06:42] <apokryphos> mdke: it's not the same at all. This guide links to other documentation; it works as a generalized faq to sections of the wiki and the ubuntu site
[06:43] <mdke> jenda: yes. msg me them, or post to loco-contacts
[06:43] <mdke> apokryphos: the problem we have when large guides start springing up like this is that a user looks at the resources available and doesn't know where to click
[06:43] <mdke> that's bad
[06:44] <apokryphos> it's perhaps misleading to view it as a large guide, as I said. It's a guide that tells you just where to look
[06:44] <mdke> the size doesn't really matter
[06:44] <jsgotangco> good night all
[06:44] <mdke> the problem arises when the user sees 5 different resources, instead of one
[06:45] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: sleep well
[06:45] <Burgwork> LaserJock, then can you do that?
[06:45] <apokryphos> this can serve more as a guide to many pages of the wiki, even
[06:45] <mdke> apokryphos: like UserDocumentation does, you think?
[06:46] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I can certainly try :-)
[06:46] <apokryphos> mdke: it's good, but it's not nearly the same; I'd say it was too general and certainlly couldn't act as a full FAQ to the wiki and users on IRC
[06:46] <jsgotangco> wow that's a pretty nice faq though
[06:47] <apokryphos> the search is just about as good as a search can be on a wiki, but it's not quite as perfect, or as readable/accessible
[06:48] <Burgwork> LaserJock, sure
[06:48] <apokryphos> I think a link to that on UserDocumentation would be decent enough, and I'd say it's a lot more patched up now (still open to particular feedback though)
[06:49] <apokryphos> ah, mounting windoze partitions; gotta add that in.
[06:50] <LaserJock> boy there's a lot of old cruft and crappy wiki pages laying around :/
[06:51] <Burgwork> LaserJock, yep
[06:52] <mdke> apokryphos: my advice is to confine it to only a few questions, like 15 max
[06:52] <apokryphos> why?
[06:52] <apokryphos> mdke: as long as organisation is maintained when it gets larger, I think it'd be just fine
[06:52] <mdke> because I think that otherwise it will simply become an attempt to replace existing documentation, and will be confusing to read
[06:53] <apokryphos> much better to have the information available and for it to take someone a little longer to find on the page (though I don't think this is a necessary consequence) than to not have the answer available at all
[06:53] <mdke> sigh
[06:53] <apokryphos> mdke: I can't imagine how you'd argue that it replaces existing documentation when it explicitly links out to it all in practically every answer
[06:53] <mdke> ok, so s/documentation/index
[06:54] <LaserJock> apokryphos: I think the problem is this, there is lots of entry points to documentation throw at users
[06:54] <apokryphos> if the index is as it is (which I don't think is wrong) it follows as necessary to have a more complete guide (or index, in the fuller sense) with these things available
[06:55] <mdke> apokryphos: right, but right now, your page isn't an index at all, it's half way between
[06:55] <apokryphos> LaserJock: for the most quintessential questions (the page being an FAQ in itself) there isn't
[06:55] <mdke> but the whole point we subcategorised the index was that we were going in the opposite direction to this
[06:55] <apokryphos> the subcategories are fine and dandy, but as I said, they don't nearly provide the information as readily
[06:56] <apokryphos> and for many of those it's also the case that you simply wouldn't find them from any of the subcategories
[06:56] <mdke> apokryphos: yes. All you are saying is you disagree with what we have discussed a million times and come to a different view
[06:56] <apokryphos> having simply a few subcategories cannot be the solution
[06:56] <apokryphos> I didn't notice us discussing it a million times, and I'm not just saying I disagree (I'm providing substantiation)
[06:57] <mdke> apokryphos: "us" = the team, rather than you and us
[06:57] <apokryphos> if you disagree with my reasoning then that's another issue for you to pick up, but it's not the case that I'm just blindly disagreeing; I hardly want to argue for no reason :)
[06:57] <apokryphos> ok
[06:57] <mdke> another thing I'm concerned about is duplication of this document - http://www.ubuntu.com/support/faq
[06:58] <apokryphos> not quite a duplication
[06:58] <apokryphos> (at all)
[06:59] <jjesse> stupdi question, but i always forget what packages i need to validate and also build the doc
[06:59] <apokryphos> that provides the answer to a few (very few questions), whereas this is a full-blown wiki faq
[06:59] <LaserJock> apokryphos: but again, I'm seeing lots of different places to get somewhat similar info. It is confusing to me and I think it could be quite confusing to new users
[07:00] <apokryphos> LaserJock: this provides link to and into the wiki; the fact that there are multiple places to get the info is a simple fact, this merely directs into it
[07:00] <mdke> apokryphos: actually, as far as I can see, lots of your answers are on that page
[07:00] <apokryphos> it's not as if I'm creating another wiki, I'm linking to parts into the wiki
[07:01] <apokryphos> some are, some aren't. That page is not a wiki.
[07:01] <apokryphos> I have to shoot off to dinner, I can continue discussion when I'm back :)
[07:01] <LaserJock> apokryphos: right, I understand that, but we still have multiple places to go to find that info
[07:01] <mdke> apokryphos: well, actually, that page is a wiki
[07:01] <mdke> it's on a wiki, at any rate
[07:01] <mvirkkil> mdke: just dropped in to say hi, and idle :)
[07:01] <mdke> just to get rid of the magic "wiki" word
[07:01] <apokryphos> editable by regular users; I thought that was presupposed
[07:02] <mdke> mvirkkil: welcome back :)
[07:02] <mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks :)
[07:02] <apokryphos> anyhow, I really have to go; back later guys
[07:02] <mdke> me too, cyall
[07:02] <LaserJock> apokryphos: it's got good info though, good work on that
[07:03] <LaserJock> cya mdke
[07:22] <jjesse> sorry dropped my connection, what packages are needed to validate and also build the docs?
[07:23] <LaserJock> docbook-xsl?
[07:25] <jjesse> libxml2-utils
[07:59] <apokryphos> back guys
[08:00] <mdke> jjesse: apt-get build-dep kubuntu-docs
[08:01] <apokryphos> to clarify my thoughts, and to avoid spiralling to an endless pit: (i) I do not think this is a duplication of effort. I do not see ubuntuguide as appropriate (I can expand), the wiki search as appropriate, or the ubuntu.com FAQ. Each for reasons I can clarify
[08:01] <apokryphos> I think the guide should welcome other FAQ content as long as it is a FAQ, it's kept manageable and organised
[08:02] <apokryphos> I'm not sure of its role with regard to the entire wiki and its structure, and you guys are the boss, so if you really want it a particular way (hidden or not mentioned there) then I'll be fine with that
[08:03] <apokryphos> Needless to say, I think this is the *exact* FAQ that could shape up to be i.e. in an IRC channel topic, a link to provide to friends. I think it greatly complements the wiki rather than duplicates effort anywhere, and I think that should be its aim
[08:09] <apokryphos> ok, just added mounting/xgl+compiz faq
[08:10] <LaserJock> apokryphos: I guess you should probably link the the ubuntu.com FAQ first off and then don't do any Questions that are the same
[08:11] <apokryphos> LaserJock: not really because I wouldn't want the faq to be "check there for the answer first, if it's not there read this faq"
[08:11] <LaserJock> but if ubuntu has an offical FAQ that should be the first place people should go
[08:12] <LaserJock> the wiki is fine and dandy, but I'd rather get the answer straight from the horse's mouth if I can
[08:12] <apokryphos> I don't see the problem with having the information there too. Having to first check through one faq, and *then* check through another is annoying
[08:13] <apokryphos> the horse's mouth is good, and we should try to link to it where that's relevant
[08:13] <apokryphos> for additional information etc. That faq is linked to below under support options
[08:14] <apokryphos> but I don't want to get into a whole debate on the validity of wikis as mediums for support/advice
[08:14] <apokryphos> that FAQ is a little outdated, I'll email the relevant people later if I get round to it
[08:15] <apokryphos> ......unless someone here has editing privileges?
[08:15] <LaserJock> I think there are people who do
[08:16] <LaserJock> I know that a ubuntu-website ML is in the works so people can talk about the website
[08:16] <mdke> apokryphos: why don't you work on improving the faq on the website? We can update it for you.
[08:16] <mdke> merge the two projects
[08:16] <apokryphos> mdke: I think that resolves a lot of issues
[08:17] <apokryphos> still doesn't have the easyness of it being a freely editable wiki, which I think can help
[08:17] <apokryphos> also wouldn't it be questionable to reference practical (but things of questionable legality) on that page?
[08:18] <LaserJock> no
[08:18] <LaserJock> linking to RestrictedFormats for  instance is a good thing
[08:18] <mdke> well, don't be illegal obviously
[08:19] <apokryphos> giving advice on how to install some of those restricted formats is of questionable legality, though
[08:19] <LaserJock> telling people to go to RestrictedFormats has no questionable legality
[08:20] <apokryphos> though if recommending the whole of RestrictedFormats page is fine, then there's no issue there
[08:22] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation also has some of the CommonQuestion items
[08:22] <apokryphos> yup
[08:26] <LaserJock> I like a lot of those items apokryphos, but my thought is that I'd rather see them folded into the ubuntu.com FAQ and UserDocumentation, but that's just IMO
[08:27] <apokryphos> LaserJock: it'd be nice to get all of that information as easily accessible (regardless of its location), I believe, too. I think there are a few drawbacks to having it woven into the ubuntu.com FAQ but I'll leave that up to you guys
[08:27] <apokryphos> having it folded into UserDocumentation could work, but I think that page servers more as an introductory page to the entire wiki, whereas the CommonQuestions page acts simply as an FAQ to new users
[08:29] <LaserJock> well, my thinking is this. If they really are FAQ then people shouldn't have to go to the wiki to find them.
[08:29] <apokryphos> but having them on the wiki gives a lot of advantages
[08:30] <LaserJock> like?
[08:30] <apokryphos> and the answers it provides are very often linking right into the wiki
[08:30] <apokryphos> that anyone can edit it
[08:30] <apokryphos> and others (like me) can just help with organising it later
[08:31] <LaserJock> my experience has been that once you let anyone edit it the quality starts going downhill
[08:31] <apokryphos> I really don't want to argue here at all (I do apologise); I'm seriously just trying to help, and offering an idea
[08:31] <apokryphos> LaserJock: so let's try to stop that, with this page :)
[08:31] <LaserJock> no, that's fine
[08:31] <LaserJock> you are helping
[08:32] <LaserJock> but sometimes we have to work through what the best way to present the info is, and how to go about things
[08:32] <tuxmaniac> sorry to interrupt. apokryphos discussions does not mean opposition.. It is just a way of getting others views and chosing the best
[08:33] <apokryphos> I don't doubt it
[08:33] <LaserJock> we have been going over and over a bit with this though
[08:34] <apokryphos> yes
[08:37] <apokryphos> hm, how do I make "x y" link to xy?
[08:38] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm not sure, I'm just a casual wiki user
[08:38] <apokryphos> nevermind, got it
[09:07] <apokryphos> ok, added a few more parent sections and did a bit of restructuring, while adding more questions. Should be more accessible now.
[09:19] <jjesse> l
[09:20] <Burgwork> mgalvin, are you aware of the wikipedia signpost?
[09:21] <mgalvin> Burgwork: huh? nope
[09:22] <Burgwork> mgalvin, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost
[09:22] <mgalvin> looking
[09:22] <Burgwork> they have been very successful in running a newsletter
[09:24] <mgalvin> cool, i'll have to take a closer look in a bit, busy at work atm
[09:25] <mgalvin> Burgwork: thanks for pointing me at it
[09:27] <Burgwork> mgalvin, np
[09:35] <Burgwork> mdke, hmm, -uk contact issues?
[09:46] <mdke> Burgwork: not that I know of. I'm just surprised he randomly emailed the loco-list without discussing it on the -uk list first
[09:47] <mgalvin> man the wiki seems slow
[09:47] <mdke> yeah it is
[09:47] <mdke> too many pages
[09:48] <Burgwork> mdke, that was what I meant
[09:48] <LaserJock> mdke: can we make string changes in the dapper docs for -updates
[09:48] <mdke> LaserJock: erm.
[09:48] <mdke> no, i'm pretty sure we can't
[09:49] <mdke> dapper uploads automatically get pushed to rosetta, so it would break translations
[09:49] <LaserJock> hmm, bummer
[09:49] <mdke> then again, the packaging guide isn't so widely translated, I'd say that it can be your call
[09:49] <LaserJock> why would it break translations?
[09:50] <mdke> well, because new strings will come in
[09:50] <LaserJock> but if the docs are still being translated post-release isn't that not really a problem
[09:50] <mdke> yeah, that's true
[09:51] <mdke> but you need to make sure that the teams that have translated those strings already know to retranslate them
[09:51] <mdke> and have time to do so
[09:51] <LaserJock> ah
[09:51] <LaserJock> I thought they had a "this string has changed" flag or something
[09:51] <mdke> well, they'll be untranslated, so it's obvious yeah
[09:52] <mdke> but they might not look :)
[09:52] <LaserJock> slackers ;-)
[09:53] <LaserJock> ok, well I was just going to try to address the bug in the chroot directions that was just on the ML
[09:57] <mdke> LaserJock: I'm fine with you deciding
[09:57] <mgalvin> anyone know 'Mav' a polish translator?
[09:57] <LaserJock> mdke: hehe, thanks a lot. :p
[09:59] <mdke> mgalvin: no, why?
[10:00] <mgalvin> Mav is translating issue 1 into polish and i just wanted to try to catch up with him/her
[10:00] <mgalvin> i would like to try to organize the page a bit better
[10:00] <mgalvin> maybe something like UWN/Issue1/LANG
[10:01] <mdke> mgalvin: I'd suggest you invite translators to publish them on their individual sites
[10:01] <mdke> mgalvin: we'll be doing that for italian
[10:01] <mdke> it won't be possible to get everyone to do it in the wiki
[10:06] <mgalvin> mdke: true, i guess i'll email the translators list and just let them add a simple link to translated versions or something
[10:06] <mdke> that works too
[10:29] <rob> oh, have you guys seen this: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/05/1340255
[10:31] <mgalvin> oh nice
[10:33] <mgalvin> ooo, and the finally have the new look, neat
[10:33] <rob> yeah, I noticed that too, all ajax and stuff too
[10:34] <mgalvin> sweet
[10:34] <rob> this is encouraging: "Lets hope other distributions follow Ubuntu's lead on this one.."
[10:35] <rob> I really have to stop quickly checking that site before going to work each morning
[10:35] <mgalvin> indeed!
[10:39] <rob> ok, better go to work
[10:41] <mdke> slashdotted?
[10:41] <mdke> w00t
[10:42] <DBO> slashdot, the only good DDoS
[10:43] <LaserJock> I made my first /. post for that
[10:43] <LaserJock> as an Anonymous Coward of course
[10:43] <mdke> the embedded fonts one?
[10:43] <LaserJock> yeah
[10:44] <LaserJock> I couldn't remember exactly, but I thought that was it
[10:45] <mgalvin> whats the polish lang code?
[10:45] <crimsun> interesting, I can't secondary-click in epiphany while a page is loading
[10:45] <DBO> crimsun, seconded
[10:45] <DBO> but I can if I switch to a different tab
[10:49] <mdke_> did I miss anything?
[10:50] <crimsun> < mgalvin> whats the polish lang code?
[10:50] <crimsun> that's about it, I think
[10:50] <mdke_> pl
[10:51] <mgalvin> thanks
[10:51] <mdke_> thanks crimsun
[10:52] <crimsun> np
[10:53] <mgalvin> hmm, need a second opinion...
[10:53] <mgalvin> for the issues lang sub-pages, should i use the lang code or the lang name?
[10:54] <mgalvin> i was leaning toward the code
[10:54] <crimsun> why not "name (code)"?
[10:54] <crimsun> oh, for Web
[10:54] <mgalvin> yea, on the wiki
[10:55] <mgalvin> UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue1/pl
[10:55] <mgalvin> why?
[10:55] <mdke_> mgalvin: we discussed it already
[10:55] <mgalvin> only for ones that are hosted on wiki.ubuntu.com
[10:55] <mgalvin> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/SubmittingTranslations
[10:55] <mdke_> http://ubuntu.pl/
[10:55] <mgalvin> well, Mav created it on the wiki :-/
[10:56] <mdke_> yeah, that's my point
[10:56] <mdke_> I think translators should be encouraged to integrate with their own sites, because that's where polish speakers go
[10:56] <mdke_> english speakers will be on the wiki
[10:57] <mgalvin> i'll have to try and catch up with him and see if he can do that
[10:57] <mdke_> but this is just my opinion, people should do what they think is best
[11:03] <mdke_> heya Madpilot
[11:03] <Madpilot> hi
[11:04] <mdke> the lulu thing got slashdotted
[11:04] <Madpilot> wheee
[11:04] <mdke> Madpilot: we're just missing the cover for russian server guide, afaics
[11:05] <Madpilot> OK, I can get that in a bit
[11:06] <mdke> I'm quite disappointed that Lulu doesn't show us the sales of actual books, but just the total (downloaded and printed)
[11:06] <crimsun> (complain!)
[11:06] <mdke> (I did)
[11:06] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm pretty sure they will have a Mattzilla pretty soon for you
[11:06] <mdke> http://www.lulu.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40491
[11:09] <Burgwork> Madpilot, are you not supposed to be working?
[11:10] <Madpilot> Burgwork, booked the day off, I'm working most of next weekend
[11:10] <Burgwork> ah
[11:10] <LaserJock> lol
[11:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, are you amused that the person who is working (and is clearly not) asking somebody else if they are working?
[11:13] <LaserJock> no, "Am I my brother's keeper?" came to mind
[11:13] <Madpilot> Burgwork, I should contact your boss and tell him to block IRC's ports on your work server ;)
[11:13] <Burgwork> right
[11:14] <Burgwork> first of all, I (and Brett), control the entire IT infrastructure here
[11:14] <Burgwork> 2nd, I have root on every machine in the office
[11:14] <mdke> they must be crazy
[11:15] <Burgwork> heh
[11:15] <Madpilot> absolutely
[11:15] <crimsun> help help I'm being oppressed
[11:15] <mdke> bloody peasant
[11:15] <LaserJock> Burgwork: is Tim your boss?
[11:16] <Burgwork> yes, but he is in Calgary, thank the lord
[11:16] <Burgwork> my boss is Tim's older brother, Daniel
[11:19] <Madpilot> mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_ru.png
[11:19] <Madpilot> mdke, I've also update the UDG_ru cover, to use the same typeface as ServerGuide_ru - the Cyrillic looks way better now
[11:20] <mdke> word
[11:21] <Burgwork> page
[11:25] <mvirkkil> mdke: ThomasWaldmann
[11:25] <mdke> mvirkkil: context?
[11:25] <mvirkkil> mdke: Argh.. Miss-paste
[11:26] <mvirkkil> mdke: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de
[11:26] <mdke> ok, cool
[11:27] <mdke> mvirkkil: so do you want some examples to test with?
[11:28] <mdke> something hardcore like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenSSL
[11:30] <mvirkkil> mdke: Urgh.. Well, if you like :)
[11:30] <mvirkkil> mdke: I haven't done intensive testing..
[11:30] <mdke> I'll give it a go
[11:30] <mvirkkil> mdke: Just small testcases.
[11:31] <mdke> oh...
[11:31] <mdke> shall I delete it?
[11:31] <mvirkkil> mdke: Njah.. Do as you please
[11:31] <mvirkkil> mdke: The more the merrier :)
[11:31] <mvirkkil> mdke: But if you find issues, a small testcase would be nicer :)
[11:32] <mdke> works in yelp
[11:32] <mdke> IZ VALID!
[11:33] <mdke> holy shit
[11:33] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'll take that as a compliment :D
[11:33] <mdke> that's pretty damn cool
[11:34] <mdke> nice one dude
[11:34] <mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks :)
[11:35] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'm going to work on generating a single book from multiple pages.
[11:35] <mdke> mvirkkil: sounds fun :)
[11:35] <mdke> Burgwork: mvirkkil is working on the wiki->docbook SoC project, already looking good
[11:35] <mvirkkil> mdke: But I think I've solved the largest problems. Now I just need to implement it ;)
[11:35] <LaserJock> \o/
[11:36] <mdke> mvirkkil: well done, that's great stuff. Is it going to work with 1.5 and above only?
[11:37] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'm working agains the 1.6 branch as are all the other SoC:s
[11:37] <mdke> oh right
[11:37] <mdke> we have 1.3.4 on our servers :D
[11:37] <mvirkkil> mdke: Yeah.. I know :)
[11:37] <mdke> we'll have to get them to upgrade sharpish
[11:38] <mvirkkil> mdke: There have been cleanups in various parts, but the largest ones went in to the 1.3 branch, so it might be backportable.
[11:38] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'm not going to try though :)
[11:38] <mdke> fair enough
[11:39] <mdke> rob: by the way, is that your post to /. ?
[11:40] <mvirkkil> mdke: Fedora solved it by creating a small service which takes a page url, requests the raw wiki syntax and runs it through the parser and formatter to return the docbook to the callee.
[11:41] <mdke> right
[11:41] <mvirkkil> mdke: So they have their old 1.3.x wiki, but when they want docbook, they run it throug a more up to date wiki, to re-parse and re-format the page on the fly.
[11:41] <Madpilot> Anyone else noticed that packages.ubuntu.com is still defaulting to only searching Breezy's repos?
[11:41] <mdke> instead of upgrading?
[11:41] <mvirkkil> mdke: At the moment yes.
[11:41] <mdke> ic
[11:41] <mvirkkil> mdke: But I got the feeling they are going to update soonish.
[11:43] <mdke> mvirkkil: I hope you don't use fedora now!
[11:43] <mvirkkil> mdke: There are some simple improvements in newer versions like strikethrough, but I suppose both ubuntu and fedora feel that the 1.3 version is/was good enough.
[11:43] <mvirkkil> mdke: Nope, and my mentor knows it :)
[11:43] <mdke> good.
[11:43] <mdke> well, the WYSIWYG editor is a massive bonus in 1.5
[11:43] <mvirkkil> mdke: Coming from a debian background, I wouldn't know how to deal with day to day tasks..
[11:44] <mvirkkil> mdke: That means wysiwyg editing of docbooks ;)
[11:44] <mdke> it does indeed
[11:44] <mvirkkil> There's also some other seriously cool stuff brewing in moin.
[11:44] <mdke> moin is great
[11:44] <mdke> shame they only got a few soc projects
[11:45] <mdke> Madpilot: uploaded, grazie
[11:45] <Madpilot> de nada
[11:45] <mvirkkil> mdke: The wiki sync for example. Allowing to separate wikis to transparently sync the pages they want in sync.
[11:45] <DBO> wait... de nada... italian right?
[11:46] <Madpilot> DBO, very funny ;)
[11:46] <Madpilot> no, de nada is es
[11:46] <DBO> ok
[11:46] <mvirkkil> mdke: So distributions could share certain documentation, collaborativle improve them accross wikis.
[11:46] <DBO> Madpilot, I thought you should know
[11:46] <mdke> mvirkkil: nice
[11:46] <Madpilot> DBO, thank you. I think. :)
[11:46] <mvirkkil> mdke: And the [[GetText(DistributionName)] ]  could take care of branding.
[11:46] <mdke> mvirkkil: that does sound exciting
[11:47] <mvirkkil> Since the dictionary could hold "branding" information.
[11:48] <mvirkkil> mdke: Yeah... Should limit the duplication of docs and difficulty of merging separate documentation in to a canonical whole.
[11:48] <mdke> hmmmm
[11:48] <mdke> limiting duplication...
[11:48] <mdke> duplicious
[11:49] <Burgwork> mdke, very cool
[11:50] <mvirkkil> And all larger distros already use docbook, ubuntu, fedora and suse (though they have som suse.dtd of their own).
[11:50] <mvirkkil> And gnome, ubuntu and fedora use moinmoin.
[11:50] <mdke> Gnome based distros
[11:51] <mvirkkil> mdke: Yup.. So basically all using and writing documentation for the same tools.
[11:51] <LaserJock> Madpilot: I like the Ubuntu CA logo :-)
[11:51] <Madpilot> LaserJock, thanks
[11:52] <mvirkkil> mdke: Well, now I need to get some sleep. It's almost 1am and I've got to be at work at 8am
[11:52] <mdke> mvirkkil: alright, have fun and keep up the good work
[11:55] <Madpilot> DBO, www.ubuntu-ca.org
[11:56] <Burgwork> DBO, planet.ubuntu as a big version
[11:56] <DBO> you did that Madpilot? =)
[11:56] <mdke> Burgwork: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/OpenSSL -> Render as docbook -> Open in yelp
[11:56] <Madpilot> yes
[11:56] <Madpilot> Inkscape is wonderful :)
[11:57] <DBO> its... its beautiful
[11:57] <DBO> eh, michigan is close enough
[11:58] <DBO> Corey Burger wouldnt happen to be related to you would he Madpilot?
[11:58] <Madpilot> we're brothers
[11:58] <Madpilot> Corey is Burgwork
[11:58] <Burgwork> yes, he is my older brother
[11:59] <Burgwork> mdke, yelp in gnome 2.12 fails to render that
[11:59] <mdke> Burgwork: it's valid, so it should render it.


[02:29] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [amd64] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[02:29] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [ppc64el] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[02:29] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [i386] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[02:29] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [s390x] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[02:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [powerpc] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[02:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [arm64] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[02:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [armhf] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[04:22] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: cgroup-lite (precise-proposed/main) [1.1.5 => 1.1.6] (ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-server)
[04:25] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: cgroup-lite (trusty-backports/main) [1.11~ubuntu14.04.2 => 1.11~ubuntu14.04.3] (ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-server)
[04:27] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: cgroup-lite (trusty-backports/main) [1.11~ubuntu14.04.2 => 1.11~ubuntu14.04.3] (ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-server)
[04:33] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: cgroup-lite (xenial-proposed/universe) [1.11 => 1.11ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (no packageset)
[04:34] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: cgroup-lite (yakkety-updates/universe) [1.11 => 1.11ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (no packageset)
[10:02] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New sync: pagein (zesty-proposed/primary) [0.00.03-1]
[10:52] <ginggs> would someone take care of a couple of removals please? LP: #1653238 please let me know if i need to add more info to the bug
[10:52] <ginggs> and LP: #1636259
[13:08] <tjaalton> I don't understand this entry in update_output.txt:
[13:08] <tjaalton> trying: mesa
[13:08] <tjaalton> skipped: mesa (8, 35, 1)
[13:08] <tjaalton>     got: 51+0: a-19:a-4:a-4:i-7:p-3:s-14
[13:08] <tjaalton>     * amd64: libopentk-cil-dev, libopentk1.1-cil
[13:09] <tjaalton> hm actually, looks like libopentk1.1-cil depends on $world
[13:10] <tjaalton> and needs fixing
[13:35] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [i386] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2] (no packageset)
[13:35] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [ppc64el] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2] (no packageset)
[13:36] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [amd64] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2] (no packageset)
[13:37] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [arm64] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2] (no packageset)
[13:37] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [s390x] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2] (no packageset)
[13:37] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [armhf] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2] (no packageset)
[13:39] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: graphene [powerpc] (zesty-proposed/universe) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2] (no packageset)
[13:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New source: retro-gtk (zesty-proposed/primary) [0.9.91-0ubuntu1]
[13:55] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New source: gnome-games-app (zesty-proposed/primary) [3.23.91-0ubuntu1]
[14:04] <jbicha> you can reject the older retro-gtk, gnome-games-app; I had to rename retro-gtk's -dev package
[14:10] <zul> can someone please reject horizon 10.0.2 sitting in yakkety-proposed
[15:10] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected horizon [source] (yakkety-proposed) [3:10.0.2-0ubuntu1]
[15:10] <rbasak> zul: ^
[15:13] <zul> rbasak: yes
[15:14] <rbasak> zul: just letting you know it's done (and others so they don't duplicate effort looking at the queue)
[15:15] <zul> thalkns
[16:43] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: fglrx-installer (trusty-proposed/restricted) [2:15.201-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> => 2:15.201.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (ubuntu-desktop)
[16:47] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: fglrx-installer-updates (trusty-proposed/restricted) [2:15.201-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> => 2:15.201.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (ubuntu-desktop)
[16:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [amd64] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1]
[16:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [armhf] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1]
[16:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [powerpc] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1]
[16:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [s390x] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1]
[16:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [arm64] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2]
[16:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [i386] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2]
[16:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [ppc64el] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2]
[16:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted pagein [sync] (zesty-proposed) [0.00.03-1]
[16:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [arm64] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1]
[16:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [ppc64el] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1]
[16:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [armhf] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2]
[16:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [s390x] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2]
[16:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [i386] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu1]
[16:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [powerpc] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2]
[16:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted graphene [amd64] (zesty-proposed) [1.6.0-0ubuntu2]
[16:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: rejected retro-gtk [source] (zesty-proposed) [0.9.91-0ubuntu1]
[16:52] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: pagein [ppc64el] (zesty-proposed/none) [0.00.03-1] (no packageset)
[16:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: pagein [amd64] (zesty-proposed/universe) [0.00.03-1] (no packageset)
[16:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: pagein [armhf] (zesty-proposed/universe) [0.00.03-1] (no packageset)
[16:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: pagein [s390x] (zesty-proposed/universe) [0.00.03-1] (no packageset)
[16:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: pagein [arm64] (zesty-proposed/universe) [0.00.03-1] (no packageset)
[16:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: pagein [i386] (zesty-proposed/universe) [0.00.03-1] (no packageset)
[16:54] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: pagein [powerpc] (zesty-proposed/universe) [0.00.03-1] (no packageset)
[17:21] <jamespage> mdeslaur, rbasak: re bug 1668934
[17:21] <jamespage> zesty uploads acked by release team and completed; xenial and yakkety updates staged in PPA referenced in bug report
[17:22] <jamespage> a slight horrifying number of CVE's closed out
[17:22] <mdeslaur> jamespage: ack, thanks, whoever is on community will look at it
[17:22] <jamespage> I've upgrade tested all three sets of updates
[17:22] <jamespage> mdeslaur: awesome - thanks!
[17:22] <rtg> xnox, infinity - I just removed the block-proposed tag from linux 4.10.0-11.13. Please update d-i accordingly.
[17:22] <rbasak> jamespage: thanks!
[17:33] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: sssd (xenial-proposed/main) [1.13.4-1ubuntu1.2 => 1.13.4-1ubuntu1.3] (kubuntu, ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-server)
[17:50] <infinity> rtg: And I added it back.  Can you please not remove it until the testing matrix is actually clear?
[17:50] <rtg> the ADT matrix ?
[17:51] <infinity> Yes.
[17:51] <infinity> The one with a bunch of new red and some yellow.
[17:51] <infinity> (I just retried all of those for you)
[17:53] <rtg> infinity, the only test failure that ought to have held up promotion is lxd. Seth couldn't repro it, so we decided it must be environmental.
[17:53] <infinity> rtg: And tests that hadn't run, you decided didn't matter?
[17:54] <rtg> I thought everything _had_ run at least once
[17:55] <infinity> That's not what yellow "MISS" blocks mean.
[17:55] <infinity> But the lxd thing does look like it needs deeper investigation than "oh, it must be the test setup's fault".
[17:55] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: sssd (yakkety-proposed/main) [1.13.4-3ubuntu0.1 => 1.13.4-3ubuntu0.2] (kubuntu, ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-server)
[17:56] <infinity> Because that conclusion (if correct) means the test/infra needs fixing.  If incorrect, you have a kernel regression.  Neither one of those means we need to rush to ignore the test.
[17:57] <rtg> If I waited until the test matrix was perfect I'd never get a kernel promoted.
[17:59] <infinity> If you know the tests are broken, discuss it with the people responsible for the tests.  If you know the kernel is broken, it shouldn't promote.  If you ignore both of those, the testins is useless, and the kernel is in an unknown state.
[18:01] <rtg> infinity, Seth did talk to stgraber about the lxd failures, and they are being addressed.
[18:01] <infinity> stgraber: ^
[18:02] <infinity> rtg: That's exactly not what you said the first time.
[18:02] <rtg> infinity, you are correct, that was a bit misleading.
[18:02] <rtg> environmental in the sense that there was a missing dependency
[18:03] <infinity> rtg: Anyhow, while the lxd one is the most obviously concerning, the point still stands that the tests were not all complete/passed.  I've retried the lot to see how it settles.
[18:03] <infinity> sforshee: Hey Freshest.
[18:03] <stgraber> infinity: somehow lvm2 is now being pulled into the autopkgtest images, this is triggering some extra tests on LXD's side which are failing due to missing thin-provisioning-tools. The next LXD upload (2.11 tonight) will have some more test dependencies to account for that new behavior.
[18:03] <sforshee> infinity: :-P
[18:05] <infinity> sforshee: That's cool.  Tim's first mention of this was slightly more "we decided it wasn't our fault, so meh" with a bit less actual investigation and proposed solution.   Sorry you had to come translate from Cowboy.
[18:05] <sforshee> infinity: no problem, looks like I showed up just in time for stgraber to explain
[18:06] <infinity> Err.  Yes, I should have directed that to stgraber. ;)
[18:06] <infinity> Same length nick, same first letter, and his message was right after you joined.
[18:06] <infinity> CONFUSING.
[18:06] <apw> and completion order changes with who talked last (at least for me)
[18:07] <infinity> stgraber: lvm2 being pulled in seems weird.  OTOH, if you have tests that weren't being run because of missing deps, depending on all of them so all the tests run sounds A+ to me.
[18:07] <infinity> apw: For me, it's who I talked to last.
[18:07] <stgraber> infinity: yeah, no idea why lvm2 is now part of the autopkgtest image, but indeed makes sense for us to test everything so the next upload will be depending on btrfs, lvm2+thin-provisioning-tools and zfs
[18:07] <apw> which sounds a lot more useful
[18:09] <apw> infinity, rtg, we are red across the board on zfs on that kernel, though that is likely the dracult *cough* issue.  cking is hand verifying it now.
[18:09] <Laney> Hmm
[18:09] <infinity> stgraber: Anyhow, thanks for the investigation and pending fix, please come back to Foundations, etc.
[18:09] <Laney> why do those MISS results have links to logs that apparently have the right trigger?
[18:09] <infinity> apw: dracut doesn't have an L in it, though I kinda like yours better. ;)
[18:10] <apw> it sounds more transylvanian ...
[18:11] <infinity> Laney: Because I retried everything 20m ago and the page needs to refresh?  Or do you mean old logs?
[18:12] <Laney> infinity: No, the page right now has MISS results which link to logs
[18:12] <Laney> Like dpdk
[18:13] <infinity> Laney: Which log (other than the top, which is the just now retry) looks like it's the right triggers?
[18:13] <infinity> Well, right according to what Andy's page thinks is right, which might be wrong.
[18:14] <infinity> (it seems to want the version in proposed, if there is one)
[18:14] <Laney><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:14] <Laney> There's a new dpdk in zesty since then though
[18:14] <Laney> So it could be that
[18:15] <infinity> Yeah, his page insists on results against latest versions.
[18:15] <Laney> There's a tooltip that could be that
[18:15] <infinity> So, something goes from GOOD to MISS if a new version is uploaded before migration.
[18:16] <Laney> Number of failed tests: 39
[18:16] <Laney> OK
[18:16] <Laney> A+ would test again
[18:19] <infinity> Early eBay has forever ruined a generation.
[18:19] <infinity> I use eBay feedback comments with kids half my age and they look at me like I'm on crack.
[18:22] <cking> apw, zfs testing on s390x, x86-64, aarch64 passed smoke tests and posix fs tests, just waiting for the looong running tests to complete,but it looks sane to me (as much as it ever has)
[18:22] <infinity> \o/
[18:22] <cking> (against the -proposed kernel btw)
[18:23] <apw> cking, ack thank you!
[18:24] <cking> i'll see how the full xfs test suite works out on it - that takes a good 30-40 mins, then I run the insane stress tests to see if anything explodes
[18:26] <infinity> cking: Heh, insane stress tests should probbaly be done regularly on all kernels, but not sure that would fit in adt.
[18:27] <cking> infinity, i believe the kt tests do run stress-ng on all our kernels
[18:32] <jbicha> hi, graphene has no rdepends, I renamed the -dev package and it looks like the missing libgraphene-dev is keeping graphene from migrating out of zesty-proposed
[18:33] <infinity> jbicha: Looks like NBS in proposed.  Will fix.
[18:34] <infinity> jbicha: Done.
[18:37] <jbicha> thank you
[18:37] <jbicha> I don't like having the version number in the -dev package name for packages like this but that's what the Debian package will do so might as well fix it now
[18:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed [amd64] (yakkety-proposed/main) [4.8.0-41.44] (core, kernel)
[18:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed [amd64] (trusty-proposed/main) [3.13.0-112.159] (core, kernel)
[18:57] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed [amd64] (vivid-proposed/main) [3.19.0-83.91] (core, kernel)
[18:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed [amd64] (yakkety-proposed) [4.8.0-41.44]
[18:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed [amd64] (trusty-proposed) [3.13.0-112.159]
[18:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed-lts-trusty [amd64] (precise-proposed/main) [3.13.0-112.159~precise1] (kernel)
[18:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed [amd64] (xenial-proposed/main) [4.4.0-66.87] (core, kernel)
[18:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed [amd64] (vivid-proposed) [3.19.0-83.91]
[18:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed-lts-xenial [amd64] (trusty-proposed/main) [4.4.0-66.87~14.04.1] (kernel)
[19:00] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed-lts-trusty [amd64] (precise-proposed) [3.13.0-112.159~precise1]
[19:00] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed [amd64] (xenial-proposed) [4.4.0-66.87]
[19:01] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed-lts-xenial [amd64] (trusty-proposed) [4.4.0-66.87~14.04.1]
[19:05] <cking> apw, all the zfs tests run fine on s390x, just waiting for the slower arches to eventually catch up. no explosions with the stress-ng on zfs tests
[19:21] <cpaelzer> Laney: the dpdk autotests are enabled not as blocker for a reason
[19:21] <cpaelzer> Laney: they are more often failing than not, we fix up every upload a bit
[19:21] <cpaelzer> Laney: but they keep breaking
[19:21] <cpaelzer> Laney: we added them to be executed mainly to get the logs
[19:21] <cpaelzer> Laney: the other tests are better and active to block on fail
[19:22] <cpaelzer> Laney: and then we execute the autotests outside of dep8 tests as well (together with many others)
[19:22] <cpaelzer> Laney: atm for example in the log you posted I get all but one working just fine
[19:22] <cpaelzer> dpdk (and that is a common pattern) just need to stabilize/mature a bit ore on that
[19:23] <cpaelzer> Laney: thanks for linking that here - I didn't know what the reason to post was (didn't read all backlog) but I'll add to my tasks to look at them again
[19:23] <cpaelzer> Laney: most likely lack of sufficient hugepages allocation in LP test infra
[19:23] <cpaelzer> (that it was in the past)
[20:27] <smoser> slangasek, i'm well aware that you're busy. but if you could sru review the cloud-init in the queue....
[20:39] <slangasek> smoser: did you already check with the SRU team member on duty today? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Publishing  If RAOF can't get to it I can take a look yes
[20:40] <smoser> i did not, sorry to mis-ping.
[20:40] <smoser> RAOF, ?
[20:42] <slangasek> (might still be a little early for him)
[20:44] <smoser> slangasek, thanks
[21:12] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected apparmor [source] (trusty-proposed) [2.10.95-0ubuntu2.5~14.04.2]
[23:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted cloud-init [source] (xenial-proposed) [0.7.9-48-g1c795b9-0ubuntu1~16.04.1]
[23:33] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted cloud-init [source] (yakkety-proposed) [0.7.9-48-g1c795b9-0ubuntu1~16.10.1]


[02:00] <InHisName> so . . .  .    .    .       what can I do with the new 11.04 that only good for 2D ?
[02:23] <rmg51> the same things you could do with 10.10 :-/
[02:25] <rhpot1991> buy a cheap pci vdpau capable card
[02:27] <rmg51> Unity didn't like the hardware an my oldest laptop
[02:28] <rmg51> had to use Ubuntu Classic
[02:42] <MutantTurkey> what can you do with the new 11.04? even less than the 8.10!
[10:17] <JonathanD> Morning.
[10:28] <InHisName> mawnin' JonathanD
[10:28] <JonathanD> Howdy InHisName
[10:29] <InHisName> what's the key command to wake up ubuntu from hibernate and key cmd to wake up from suspend ?
[10:30] <JonathanD> is there one?
[10:30] <JonathanD> I thought just bashing the keyboard did it.
[10:30] <InHisName> If I were an angry bird, maybe
[10:30] <JonathanD> though I think I usually hit the power button.
[10:30] <JonathanD> on my laptop.
[10:31] <InHisName> On mine was BLUE+F#    I forgot which number
[10:32] <JonathanD> that puts it to sleep, on mine
[10:32] <JonathanD> no idea if it wakes it. power button is more easily accessed.
[10:32] <InHisName> Yea, right
[10:33] <rmg51> morning JonathanD InHisName
[10:33] <InHisName> Either BLUE+any F key or BLUE+hib key for wake up from hibernate
[10:34] <InHisName> My desktop doesn't do BLUE
[10:34] <JonathanD> Hello.
[10:34] <rmg51> power button to wake up from either one
[10:35] <rmg51> with Teddy's System76 laptop, if you close the top, it wakes from sleep as soon as you open it
[10:37] <InHisName> My test box has gone to some kinda deep sleep, power still on, fans spinning.  No video sync. Mouse active power but no mouse on screen.     Nothing
[14:28] <knightzero> Morning all.
[14:48] <InHisName> morning to you, knightzero
[16:12] <InHisName> test box still giving me grief at booting well enough yet.
[16:14] <InHisName> Sometimes I get into gui desktop but only mouse arrow moves.  No actions or anything clickable.  Clock not updating.  None of the Ctrl-alt keys work or any others either.  Not even ctrl-alt-del.  Only hold power 10 sec works.  Then dirty disks. Uggh.
[16:15] <InHisName> Is there a way to reduce the screen pixel size of desktop to lower number via text mode in recovery ?
[16:20] <InHisName> Morning's almost over, anyone else awake yet?
[16:21]  * waltman *yawns*
[16:22] <ChinnoDog> I'm hungry
[16:22] <InHisName> ChinnoDog: before you go grazing for food, see above ^^     How to change screen resolution ?
[16:27] <ChinnoDog> I don't know. I stopped knowing anything about X after xorg.conf went away
[16:28] <ChinnoDog> oh..
[16:28] <ChinnoDog> If you go into recovery I belive you can configure x
[16:28] <ChinnoDog> I forget the command. xconfigure?
[16:28] <ChinnoDog> (does that still work?)
[17:07] <InHisName> no, nor xconfig
[17:27] <andrew> So... why doesn't Libre Office use the fancy Unity menubar?
[17:28] <InHisName1> Well, I got into gui and cranked resolution down to 1024x768 and see if that stops the disabling.
[17:32] <andrew> There's a fix, sudo apt-get install lo-menubar
[17:33] <andrew> If anyone misses the 'world clock' thing in unity: http://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/h4pwp/where_did_the_world_clock_go_in_unity/c1skf2h
[17:33] <PennBot> Title: ahotw comments on Where did the world clock go in Unity? (at www.reddit.com)
[17:33] <andrew> pleia2: ^
[17:34]  * pleia2 doesn't use gnome
[17:34] <pleia2> or unity
[17:35] <InHisName1> should I try to clean up these 'errors' ?               dpkg-query: warning: parsing file '/var/lib/dpkg/status' near line 51241 package 'virtualbox-2.2':                                                    error in Config-Version string '2.2.4-47978_Ubuntu_hardy': invalid character in revision number                                    how to go about fixing them ?
[17:35] <InHisName1>
[17:37] <andrew> pleia2: fine, be that way
[17:37] <andrew> :)
[17:38] <andrew> pleia2: Figured you'd get asked that more likely than I would
[17:38] <pleia2> I tend to use the "I don't use gnome or unity" line when I get questions like that :)
[17:38]  * pleia2 isn't much of a support person these days
[17:39] <InHisName1> what does pleia2 use ?
[17:39] <pleia2> xfce
[17:40] <andrew> be honest, you use win7
[17:40] <pleia2> I don't even think I've seen win7
[17:41] <InHisName1> win7 is a desktop for ubuntu ?
[17:41] <pleia2> no, the microsoft OS
[17:42] <InHisName1> much more controlled inside vbox tucked into a little window in corner.
[17:43] <InHisName1> any clues on how to clean up old junk appearing in dpkg/status ?
[17:44] <andrew> So what's up with Mark preferring iPhone over android?
[17:59] <JonathanD> She actually runs windows ME
[17:59] <JonathanD> Thats what I heard, anyway.
[18:01] <andrew> JonathanD: so that's what's causing the hard drive grinding noise coming out of the holodeck?
[18:05] <JonathanD> es
[18:05] <JonathanD> yes
[20:09] <InHisName1> sudo aptitude purge virtualbox-2.2      that got rid of those pesky errors in dpkg


[23:36] <wrst> anyone installed ubuntu on a windows 8.1 machine?
[23:36] <wrst> uefi?
[23:36]  * wrst has an incoming project


[07:02] <alkisg> Good morning everyone! The following card only works with "nomodeset" in 18.04, even with 4.20 kernel, any ways around it?
[07:02] <alkisg> 38:00.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Raven Ridge [Radeon Vega Series / Radeon Vega Mobile Series] [1002:15dd] (rev c6)
[07:02] <alkisg> Subsystem: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Vega [Radeon Vega 8 Mobile] [1002:15dd]  Kernel modules: amdgpu
[07:05] <alkisg> I also tried the x-swap ppa, with no noticable changes
[07:24] <alkisg> Hmm, I didn't try xserver-xorg-hwe-18.04, would that help?
[08:16] <tjaalton> no, since it's a kernel bug?
[08:17] <tjaalton> alkisg: what's the exact issue?
[08:17] <alkisg> tjaalton: the school reports black screen with the default settings, and limited resolutions with nomodeset
[08:18] <tjaalton> try amdgpu dkms from the amdgpu-pro tarball
[08:18] <alkisg> I thought the card was too new and it would need a newer kernel or something, so I tried -hwe first and 4.20 after, with no changes
[08:18] <tjaalton> i have a laptop with vega 8 mobile and it works fine
[08:18] <tjaalton> so it's not a generic failure
[08:18] <alkisg> Thank you, will do when the school contacts me again
[08:18] <alkisg> Gotcha
[08:18] <tjaalton> works with stock bionic too
[08:19] <tjaalton> if the dkms is still busted, it's best to file a bug upstream too
[08:20] <tjaalton> or you can build the kernel using https://cgit.freedesktop.org/~agd5f/linux/log/?h=amd-18.50
[13:20] <tjaalton> q
[13:20] <tjaalton> uh


[09:26] <lool> Hey folks
[09:26] <lool> -intel fails to build under jaunty ATM
[09:27] <lool> ../../src/i830_quirks.c:248: erreur: ‘QUIRK_BROKEN_ACPI_LID’ undeclared (first use in this function)
[09:27] <lool> This was reported to the list recently too
[09:29] <lool> Since the 4th of March
[09:35] <lool> Reported
[10:57] <lool> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xterm/+bug/343574
[10:58] <lool> Does that ring a bell to anyone?
[10:58] <lool> xterm Xt error: Unresolved inheritance operation
[10:58] <jcristau> never seen that before
[10:58] <lool> It seems the Xt error is a stub which is triggered when something isn't implemented
[10:58] <lool> jcristau: It's likely armel specific
[11:00] <jcristau> i was going to try on agricola when i get some time..
[11:00] <lool> jcristau: Thanks; if you have any idea of how to debug this, I'm interested :)
[11:01] <jcristau> it's Xt. debugging likely to involve drinking.
[11:02] <lool> Argh
[12:51] <lool> jcristau: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/23910522/.xsession-errors.1 do you think it could be related to the ICE warnings at the top?
[12:54] <jcristau> no. those probably just mean the kernel's missing ipv6
[19:41] <bryce> booted -ati 6.12.0.  All looks good, uploading...
[23:25]  * bryce waves to tormod
[23:26] <tormod> hi bryce!
[23:26] <tormod> notice we have less than 100 -ati bugs :)
[23:26] <bryce> :-)
[23:26] <bryce> btw I put in 6.12.0 this morning
[23:26] <tormod> and none New-Undecided
[23:27] <bryce> excellent, now to just get them all forwarded upstream
[23:27] <tormod> yeah, I saw that. When do we get the kernel bits? nothing it kernel git so far
[23:28] <bryce> presently, the kernel team is waiting on Alex to send a git branch for ubuntu with the essential drm changes cherrypicked
[23:28] <tormod> nice. good boy alex
[23:29] <bryce> so... hopefully something that can get resolved within the day
[23:29] <bryce> I hope so anyway... we're getting down to the wire
[23:29] <tormod> btw I have a couple of bugs with patches, for savage and i128 (yuck)
[23:29] <bryce> and... in other ati news...  http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/fglrx-8.60.jpg
[23:31] <tormod> seems like i128 never worked in intrepid and Jaunty...
[23:32] <bryce> might be; I've never tested that one myself
[23:32] <jcristau> tormod: people still have that hw?
[23:33] <tormod> apparently :)
[23:33] <tormod> at least two Ubuntu users
[23:35] <tormod> for Intrepid, SRU will be needed I guess, but the chances of regressions are very small :)
[23:36] <tormod> jcristau: I guess these fixes apply for Debian as well
[23:36] <jcristau> have a link to the bug handy?
[23:36] <tormod> bug #306970 and bug #340750 for i128
[23:37] <jcristau> sounds like server-1.5 bugs :)
[23:37] <tormod> oh the first is only for SRU
[23:38] <jcristau> so if they're fixed upstream i'm good
[23:38] <tormod> the second is not committed upstream, there's a patch in a bug report
[23:39] <tormod> now for savage there is bug 294899, which just needs a cherrypick, or a new snapshot
[23:40] <tormod> then I have a controversial patch for bug 33617 - let PCI be default for savage, since AGP makes so much trouble
[23:41] <tormod> I asked on #xorg-devel last night but nobody cares about savage
[23:42] <jcristau> tormod: mind to file a debian bug for 294899, so i can try to get it in a lenny update?
[23:42] <tormod> jcristau: ok, will do (but not tonight, I need to go to bed like 2h ago)
[23:43] <tormod> bryce: anything else I can do for these bugs? debdiffs?
[23:44] <jcristau> tormod: thanks!
[23:47] <bryce> tormod: debdiffs are almost always helpful
[23:48] <tormod> bryce: for the i128 SRU should it be one debdiff for the two bugs?
[23:48] <bryce> tormod: that'd probably be okay
[23:49] <bryce> tormod: fwiw, today and possibly tomorrow I'm focusing on finalizing package uploads for beta-freeze; after beta-freeze I'll be focusing exclusively on bugs, so assign me any bugs with debdiffs that should go in for jaunty
[23:49] <tormod> bryce: ok
[23:53] <tormod> I got a funny PPA failure now: configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
[23:53] <bryce> ouch, that sounds bad
[23:54] <tormod> that is on lpia (the others are
[23:55] <tormod> sorry, amd64 is fine, i386 is waiting
[23:55] <bryce> I've booted both -ati 6.12.0 and the new -fglrx on an R630 card, and it seems to be working.  Now to try my 7xx card...
[23:56] <tormod> bryce: so there will be an fglrx before Beta?
[23:57] <bryce> what I'm testing is non-redistributable, but we definitely have a working -fglrx for jaunty at hand
[23:59] <crdlb> but they're not changing their mind on having no r300-500 driver for xserver 1.6, I assume?


[06:42] <kyhwana> hmm, what configuration options than the smokeping configs in /etc/ should I be setting up/letting people change before deploying a smokeping charm?
[23:44] <wallyworld_> thumper: morning. good weekend?
[23:44] <thumper> wallyworld_: hi there, yes thanks
[23:44] <thumper> wallyworld_: I'd like to have a chat with you soonish
[23:44] <thumper> just replying to a long email
[23:44] <wallyworld_> sure. i was hoping for the same thing
[23:45] <wallyworld_> i think i know what i want to do next
[23:45] <wallyworld_> want to coordinate
[23:51] <thumper> ack


[01:33] <amiga> anyone have experience/knowlege in theming plymouth
[02:59] <h381> hi. I currently installed ubuntu 22.04.2 installed kubuntu-desktop and now im looking to do a full migration. can anyone tell me where I can find base config files for kubuntu?
 hey , whenever i choose to switch user or sleep
 my laptop screen get distorted but cursor works fine
 what should i do?
 i noticed , its happening only in wayland
[12:17] <BluesKaj> Hi all
 KDEconnect: I went to copy files over to my phone - but the directories are locked! Copy will not work! ? : https://irc-attachments.kde.org/adbb3d78/file_64593.jpg
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/fcbbbc81/file_64594.jpg
[22:15] <amiga> hi. anyone have any experience making plymouth themes
 0s7+


[09:12] <AlanBell> !pam
[09:12] <AlanBell> PAM is plugable authentication modules
[09:34] <Tm_T> lubotu3: pam
[09:34] <Tm_T> hah
[16:56] <tsimpson> TheLordOfTime: they should probably come to a decision, then the IRCC can help with the technical side of things
[16:57] <tsimpson> though, the IRCC would probably be happy to give any advice required to make a decision
[19:21] <TheLordOfTime> tsimpson, was a proposal to merge -bugs and -quality, both sides of the email chain said "no", so no need to follow up with IRCC.
[19:21] <TheLordOfTime> thanks though.
[19:25] <AlanBell> TheLordOfTime: well if nobody wants to merge them then wouldn't it be best to not merge them?
[19:26] <TheLordOfTime> AlanBell, isn't that what I said?
[19:26] <TheLordOfTime> both sides of the email chain said "no", so no need to follow up with IRCC. <--
[19:26] <AlanBell> ah, sorry I read that backwards :)
[19:26] <TheLordOfTime> no problem.
[19:26]  * TheLordOfTime returns to poking at the kernel