[02:35] <pleia2> anyone around who can help with the last few summaries?
[02:36] <pleia2> I can do them, but I'd rather not since I'm also going to be proof-reading :\
[04:05] <pleia2> The new edition of the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter is now available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue246
[07:56] <dholbach> good morning
[10:23] <akgraner> Thanks pleia2  and everyone!  It was after mid-night here when I finally slowed down enough to think about getting back to my computer.  You all rock!


[01:26] <LDS_Trooper> Hello. How can I submit artwork for consideration?
[01:28] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: There isn't really a way, but I believe there is a Gutsy page up for wallpapers on the wiki.  Your best bet is to talk with kwwii.
[01:28] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Do you have a link to your work?
[01:29] <LDS_Trooper> Troy not yet.. well nothing I would be submitting
[01:29] <kwwii> LDS_Trooper: sorry, I appear to have missed out on your stuff
[01:29] <kwwii> hi troy_s
[01:30] <LDS_Trooper> kwwii, not really.. just got here.
[01:30] <troy_s> greets kwwii
[01:30] <kwwii> joined late, spent the day at the museum with my son
[01:30] <LDS_Trooper> A friend and I are thinking of submitting work to Ubuntu
[01:30] <LDS_Trooper> maybe 4 desktops each
[01:30] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: It is rather hard to have any sort of idea on anything until you have work to show.
[01:30] <kwwii> LDS_Trooper: cool, if you are interested there is quite a bit to do
[01:30] <LDS_Trooper> would love to offer work where needed
[01:31] <kwwii> the best way to get stuff up is to simply post it on the wiki and the mailinglist
[01:31] <LDS_Trooper> when my buddy gets back online I will have him join the channel
[01:31] <LDS_Trooper> I see
[01:31] <LDS_Trooper> what style are you looking at?
[01:32] <LDS_Trooper> I did this in Inkscape:   http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c143/LDS_Trooper/Vector/dg_phone-2.png
[01:33] <kwwii> killer, that looks pretty good for an icon
[01:33] <kwwii> check out the human stuff in ubuntu
[01:33] <LDS_Trooper> Its a bit large for an Icon tho
[01:33] <kwwii> at this time things are still somewhat in motion (cough)
[01:34] <LDS_Trooper> sounds like good timing
[01:34] <LDS_Trooper> =)
[01:34] <kwwii> sorry to say, but you caught me at a bad time actually...it's 1:34am here - time for sleep :p
[01:35] <LDS_Trooper> no worries
[01:35] <LDS_Trooper> which timezone are you in?
[01:35] <troy_s> kwwii: Before you are off, have you any further push from Mark on anything?
[01:35] <kwwii> I live in germany
[01:35] <kwwii> so cet+1 or utc+2 at this time of the summer
[01:35] <LDS_Trooper> 8 hours ahead of us
[01:36] <kwwii> troy_s: I showed Mark a few of the ideas I had and we discussed a few things. I'll post some stuff toon
[01:36] <kwwii> erm
[01:36] <kwwii> soon
[01:36] <troy_s> kwwii: Good to hear.
[01:36] <LDS_Trooper> how can we join the mailing list?
[01:36] <kwwii> I tried to play my cards and do some really wierd stuff and see how he reacts
[01:36] <kwwii> it went better than I thought it would :-)
[01:37] <troy_s> kwwii: You are going to have to if the art and design of any of the ubuntus is going to escape this mediocre uber-conservativism.
[01:37] <kwwii> LDS_Trooper: erm, some crazy mailman interface I guess
[01:37] <kwwii> dude, you are asking hard questions after a long day and a couple of beers
[01:37] <LDS_Trooper> lol us Canadians can do that
[01:42] <kwwii> troy_s: we have a long way to go, but I think things just might be really getting better
[01:43] <troy_s> kwwii:  I really hope so.  The bottom line is that in order to achieve ANY degree of innovative design, he is going to need to do a couple of things
[01:43] <troy_s> 1) let risks be taken
[01:43] <troy_s> 2) ignore what the other two big boys are doing.
[01:43] <troy_s> 3) ignore complaints.
[01:43] <LDS_Trooper> which big boys? Win and Mac?
[01:43] <troy_s> (as if you read all of the rubbish about the new leopard wallpaper decisions you can see how utterly useless it is to bother with worrying about bent noses)
[01:44] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: yes.
[01:44] <kwwii> troy_s: agreed, it means taking a big step back and trusting in things, to some degree
[01:44] <troy_s> kwwii: Absolutely.
[01:45] <troy_s> kwwii: The reality is that if we are going to do ANYTHING bloody innovative that makes the mainstreams go 'hey I want _that_' he is going to need to let creativity and innovation cleave into the mix.
[01:45] <troy_s> and that means the reality of the shock of 'newness'
[01:46] <LDS_Trooper> Troy what ideas do you have for the look?
[01:46] <kwwii> yepp, and in the meantime we need to step up and keep in time, after which perhaps we can lead things again
[01:46] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: God... I don't know.  When I do things for myself I tend to clearly identify an audience and a communication goal.
[01:47] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: You can see a little smattering of some stuff on my blog if it is at all of interest to you.
[01:47] <kwwii> the audience is clear: everyone who uses a computer
[01:47] <troy_s> LOL
[01:47] <LDS_Trooper> sure.. link?
[01:47] <troy_s> yeah -- that's what he is aiming for and it is recipe for tepid, mediocre and horrible design.
[01:47] <troy_s> the bottom line is that he needs to clearly identify the audience and stick to it.
[01:49] <troy_s> kwwii: It is the very reason that the Vista / Mac wallpapers are more evocative -- they sacrifice the patented linux user 'i want it to be functional with all icons in all situations' for some communication.
[01:49] <kwwii> not necessarily, I think that knowing that the core audience is perhaps younger or "different" thinking old-folks who tend to code a lot and try to make things fit for "most everyone" you'll reach the goal we are looking for
[01:49] <troy_s> kwwii: Is and _want_ to be are two different things.
[01:50] <kwwii> troy_s: I think the wallpaper argument is totally right - and there is no reason for it at all - full ack
[01:50] <troy_s> kwwii: The younger audience of hackers isn't going to do Ubuntu any good -- they are already there and not really that important.
[01:50] <kwwii> is and want are two different steps to a goal, as I see it
[01:50] <troy_s> kwwii: If he were smart, he would select a mature audience that has the clout to make serious changes in their workplaces -- the power and agency to get ubuntu into places that matter.
[01:51] <troy_s> kwwii: Start with their home desktops and build from there.
[01:51] <troy_s> kwwii: Of course, having the 'cool' folks using it (the higher visibility artists / musicians / writers / etc) never hurts -- a very niche that Apple targets relentlessly by providing free computers to and paying big cash to get front place in movies and television.
[01:51] <LDS_Trooper> kwwii, I'm 35 and switched to Ubuntu because I am fed up with windows
[01:52] <kwwii> and how do you suggest, with the artwork that has been supplied for the last year to accomplish that goal?
[01:52] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Good to have mature folks.
[01:52] <LDS_Trooper> how does that fit into the "audience" well.. I'm not alone
[01:52] <kwwii> LDS_Trooper: I am 36, no worries
[01:52] <troy_s> kwwii: Well _all_ the artwork is rather irrelevant if we don't have Mark get behind having a clearly defined audience and a clearly defined goal for design.
[01:52] <troy_s> kwwii: For example, look at the copy on Apple's website.
[01:52] <kwwii> I always think that when I say "I went with my family to..." people think I went with my father and mother
[01:53] <troy_s> kwwii: It is always riddled with colloquialisms and like bits -- the entire package is aimed at a very clear audience (mac vs pc advertisments also drive in that direction obviously)
[01:53] <kwwii> troy_s: I promise you that if we had people step up now and contribute decent artwork that it would be included in some form
[01:53] <troy_s> kwwii: Well I can only offer my theme I am afraid.  And even then, it has had to backseat to fluxbuntu and now potentially mythbuntu.
[01:54] <troy_s> kwwii: But if it can get included to offer a little variation through the GDM/Wallpaper, that is terrific.
[01:54] <LDS_Trooper> mythubuntu?
[01:54] <troy_s> kwwii: Unfortunately you are put in the rather awkward spot of both accepting work and filtering work that is sub par in your eyes.  That is damn difficult.
[01:55] <troy_s> kwwii: As rejecting work tends to bite into the generation of work.  Vicious cycle.
[01:55] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Sort of an appliance disk -- pop disk in and run mythtv.
[01:55] <LDS_Trooper> thanks
[01:56] <kwwii> troy_s: the problem is not discouraging people that might turn around and turn out to be amazing
[01:56] <kwwii> I have met people, and included them in projects in which I thought they would never make it and after a few weeks they blew me away
[01:57] <troy_s> kwwii: Exactly.  A critical mistake that Mark made early going.
[01:57] <troy_s> kwwii: Everyone needs to learn and grow, and sometimes the first kick at the can might suck.  The reality is that _nothing_ will happen if that isn't fostered.
[01:57] <kwwii> I think that him hiring me to do all this shows that he knows it was a bad situation
[01:58] <troy_s> kwwii: He also suffers from 'once bitten' syndrome.
[01:58] <kwwii> you do not pay the kde guy to do gnome artwork unless you think that there is something behind it all
[01:58] <troy_s> kwwii: The photos he originally wanted in for that earlier release left such a bad taste in his mouth that he refuses to budge on certain things.
[01:59] <kwwii> funny enough, I am not the "kde guy" that he thinks or thought I am no do I have a problem making artwork for Gnome :-)
[02:00] <kwwii> I think he realized that he cannot do whatever he thinks is right and therefor has to be really careful
[02:00] <kwwii> that meant taking total control, unfortunately, and now I think things have changed a bit
[02:00] <troy_s> kwwii: I would prefer him to do whatever the hell he wants, just make a clear statement doing it.
[02:00] <kwwii> at least, I would like to think that he has some trust in me
[02:02] <kwwii> I know that I am trying to change things for the better, in some ways more like they used to be before this whole thing started
[02:02] <kwwii> and with that, I am going to bed
[02:02] <kwwii> :p
[02:02] <troy_s> kwwii: It is nothing more than a whirlpool.
[02:02] <troy_s> kwwii: Night.
[02:02] <troy_s> kwwii: It hasn't changed yet.  Hopefully it will.
[02:02] <kwwii> no, nothing has changed yet as far as others can see, you are right in that
[02:03] <troy_s> kwwii: Although again, I have always said that the earlier wallpapers were more evocative than the latters by a long shot.
[02:03] <kwwii> definitely
[02:03] <troy_s> kwwii: That said, they were horribly horribly monochromatic etc.
[02:03] <troy_s> kwwii: Again returning to the keystones of basic design -- audience / communication and build upwards to palette etc.
[02:03] <LDS_Trooper> Good to meet you kwwii
[02:03] <kwwii> the biggest problem is that nothing happens overnight, without a miracle
[02:03] <troy_s> kwwii: A lot can happen in a very short while.
[02:03] <troy_s> kwwii: I think many have proved that.
[02:03] <troy_s> _very_ short.
[02:03] <kwwii> LDS_Trooper: nice to meet you too, see you soon, I hope
[02:03] <troy_s> go get some sleep
[02:04] <LDS_Trooper> for sure
[02:04] <kwwii> troy_s: lol, yeah
[02:04] <kwwii> night guys
[02:04] <LDS_Trooper> night
[02:04] <LDS_Trooper> troy_s, do you have a link to your blog?
[02:05] <troy_s> erk
[02:07] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: you are canadian?
[02:08] <LDS_Trooper> I am
[02:08] <LDS_Trooper> In Alberta
[02:09] <troy_s> good stuffs
[02:09] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Vancouver here.
[02:09] <troy_s> (burbs thereof)
[02:09] <LDS_Trooper> Neighbours
[02:10] <LDS_Trooper> I spent about 6 months in New Westminster
[02:10] <LDS_Trooper> back in 1990 tho
[02:12] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Good stuffs.
[02:13] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: You should get some work up.
[02:14] <LDS_Trooper> will do
[02:14] <LDS_Trooper> what areas are needed?
[02:14] <LDS_Trooper> wallies? Icons? what?
[02:14] <LDS_Trooper> I'm not certain on  how to make a theme just yet.. but I want to learn
[02:15] <LDS_Trooper> I must say I wasn't impressed with the mac styled desk that came with Fiesty
[02:18] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: I think your best opportunity is to either join a community effort or do your own work to illustrate what you can do.
[02:18] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Almost all of ubuntu is rather locked in (aside from a potential wallpaper, but that is close to throwing darts at a board as to whether or not you can make progress on one)
[02:21] <LDS_Trooper> how do you mean "locked in"
[02:32] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Long story.  Basically anything that gets done comes from up high
[02:33] <LDS_Trooper> I have no understanding of the ubuntu political structure
[02:35] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: There is much political structure.
[02:36] <LDS_Trooper> hmm I guess some is needed..
[02:36] <LDS_Trooper> but it can get in the way
[02:36] <LDS_Trooper> who is Mark you were talking about?
[02:36] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Not much of caring nor attention to the art / design aspect.  Effective design rather needs that centralized push from a knowledgeable source.  Unfortunately, the centralized push is not from an ideal perspective in my opinion (solely mine of course).
[02:37] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Shuttleworth.  Brilliant guy.  Just not great on art / design.
[02:37] <LDS_Trooper> I see
[02:37] <LDS_Trooper> and what about the guy who made Ubuntu... how active is he?
[02:37] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: LOL
[02:37] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: That's him :)
[02:38] <LDS_Trooper> uhh oops
[02:38] <LDS_Trooper> =)
[02:38] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Of course, one of the central problems is that art and design issues tend to bring out experts from every closet niche in the galaxy -- regardless of their background, experience, or education.
[02:38] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: The bikeshed is huge.
[02:39] <LDS_Trooper> bikeshed?
[02:39] <LDS_Trooper> sorry I am doing a couple things at once.
[02:40] <LDS_Trooper> One issue I have with Ubuntu in general is "not knowing"
[02:40] <LDS_Trooper> meaning.. Ubuntu out of the box has little for compiling of packages.
[02:40] <LDS_Trooper> and no indication of what you need.
[02:40] <LDS_Trooper> should come with I think...
[02:42] <troy_s> wiki bikeshed :)
[02:43] <LDS_Trooper> I could be wrong.. but when someone comes to Ubuntu... they "look" at it first
[02:43] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Well that is beyond the scope of art and design really -- unless you abstract design to a higher level.
[02:43] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Absolutely.
[02:43] <LDS_Trooper> if it looks bad they dismiss it.
[02:43] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Well that's part of the problem, people throw around words like 'professional' 'bad' 'ugly' without having a clue as to the fact that those are relative terms.
[02:43] <LDS_Trooper> Troy not when you consider the compiling of Gimp plug ins
[02:43] <LDS_Trooper> =)
[02:44] <LDS_Trooper> very relative
[02:45] <LDS_Trooper> one thing I find attractive in Linux.. is how customizable it is.
[02:45] <LDS_Trooper> If I get bored of a theme.. I can change it
[02:46] <LDS_Trooper> and more than just the desktop or three color options
[02:47] <LDS_Trooper> Would it be too much for ubuntu to offer two themes? One main and one secondary?
[02:47] <LDS_Trooper> The secondary would be almost a polar opposite. So if they continue in the earth tones, the secondary could  be icy
[02:58] <troy_s> sorry LDS_Trooper was eating
[02:58] <troy_s> backreading
[02:59] <troy_s> well i would be happy if we could get one unified bit of effort in the earthy range with a _proper_ palette, a motif, etc.
[02:59] <troy_s> something that has style.
[02:59] <troy_s> as opposed to a great tremendous vacuum of style.
[03:00] <LDS_Trooper> INDEED
[03:00] <LDS_Trooper> sorry for caps
[03:00] <LDS_Trooper> Indeed that would make the effort more efficient
[03:01] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: The problem is, again, the top.
[03:01] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: There have been numerous attempts to integrate certain elements -- unfortunately there are many issues.
[03:01] <LDS_Trooper> I see
[03:02] <troy_s> For one, we start out with the ability factor -- sometimes someone might have a good idea but a lack of execution.  Inevitably, this yields 'throw out baby with bathwater as we have tried that and it sucked' etc.
[03:02] <troy_s> Two, people's knowledge of a 'palette' are extremely limited.
[03:02] <troy_s> Three, people's knowledge of aesthetics is extremely limited.  There are many people who firmly believe in such bunk concepts as 'color psychology' and a firmly locked belief in composition etc.
[03:03] <LDS_Trooper> well one issue which I saw here today is that of "Personal Taste"
[03:03] <troy_s> not realizing that _everything_ is entirely contextual -- culturally, temporally (era), etc.
[03:03] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: ?
[03:03] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper:  You would need to explain yourself a bit on that one.  Lost me.
[03:04] <LDS_Trooper> Well you clearly have a level of understanding and personal level of acceptance
[03:04] <LDS_Trooper> as do others.
[03:04] <LDS_Trooper> So what you feel is amazing to another just isn't and that can spawn frustrations
[03:05] <LDS_Trooper> especially when the other person is in a position to make decisions
[03:06] <LDS_Trooper> Does that make sense?
[03:07] <troy_s> of course.
[03:07] <troy_s> that is called the relative nature of all things
[03:07] <troy_s> but in reality, having done many many creative projects and such
[03:07] <troy_s> once you actually start down the path of execution, that sense of 'wow' quickly goes out the door for the 'god i hate this'
[03:08] <troy_s> Personally, 'amazing' is the perfect combination of a clearly stated goal with a clearly stated audience and the presentation that meets both objectives.
[03:08] <LDS_Trooper> yes
[03:09] <troy_s> I have a great deal of respect for an artistic design decision that does that -- even if the basic aesthetic isn't terribly stimulating to me.
[03:09] <LDS_Trooper> I found the same in Broadcasting and editing...
[03:10] <LDS_Trooper> making a music video means you will probably hate the song quickly. But with a clear understanding of audience and communication (or focus) you can get some "wow" from the intended crowd
[03:11] <troy_s> Well you can try.
[03:11] <troy_s> That's about it.
[03:12] <troy_s> We have won a few muchmusic awards etc for music videos and sometimes the accidents are as powerful as the planned executions.
[03:12] <LDS_Trooper> So where would you take Ubuntu visually?
[03:12] <troy_s> My personal preference is to start with what is already innately there.  Ubuntu is about community, it is about growth, it is about freedom.
[03:12] <troy_s> To hammer that point home, it is also probably wise to be counter-culture.
[03:13] <troy_s> So if you sum up the broad sweeping 'mainstream' operating systems as plastic shiny, Ubuntu naturally should be organic.
[03:13] <troy_s> Not exactly groundbreaking in terms of thinking :)
[03:14] <LDS_Trooper> but good to define
[03:14] <LDS_Trooper> I think its in the example ogg
[03:15] <LDS_Trooper> but I believe Mandela says something to the effect of
[03:15] <LDS_Trooper> "Ubuntu as a concept has many layers"
[03:15] <LDS_Trooper> If so.. why follow the commercial guys?
[03:16] <troy_s> Uh perhaps you misread me.
[03:16] <LDS_Trooper> perhaps
 To hammer that point home, it is also probably wise to be counter-culture.
[03:16] <LDS_Trooper> what is your definition of counter-culture?
[03:16] <troy_s> Where Apple and MS are plastic (and possibly exploitable with their connection to plastic ideals / beliefs etc. from a marketing vantage)
[03:16] <LDS_Trooper> I ask because you are dealing with a global culture
[03:16] <troy_s> Ubuntu should be organic.
[03:17] <troy_s> There is _no_ such creature as global culture
[03:17] <troy_s> there are _NO_ cross cultural motifs etc.  Nothing.
[03:17] <troy_s> its a myth
[03:17] <troy_s> in fact, the topic has just such a link to it.
[03:17] <troy_s> if you want _real_ research, I encourage you to read
[03:18] <troy_s> "Influence of Culture on Visual Perception" Segall, Campbell, Herskovits
[03:18] <troy_s> Or take any 'art in context 101' course ;)
[03:18] <LDS_Trooper> sure thanks
[03:19] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Unfortunately, those types of 'myths' become fact when you are dealing with a group of extremely vocal people with little study in art / design.
[03:20] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: and arguably, are the root of the problem that you are probably seeing.
[03:20] <LDS_Trooper> Well perhaps I made a mistake then.
[03:21] <LDS_Trooper> when you say "counter-culture" often the imagery of Hippy drugs come to mind.. but to the hippy it would be "government"
[03:22] <troy_s> avant garde
[03:22] <troy_s> take the now and throw it away
[03:22] <troy_s> move to the next.
[03:22] <troy_s> that's all.  Relatively simple.
[03:22] <LDS_Trooper> Well pehaps I should go then.
[03:22] <troy_s> but yes... by 'counter-culture' i was specifically meaning to distance oneself from the 'culture' of computing as the mainstream audience sees it -- Apple and MS (perhaps governments of their own, eh?)
[03:23] <troy_s> Not at all.
[03:23] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Everyone is welcome here.  And ideas are about all we got.  :)
[03:23] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Where would you like to drive ubuntu?
[03:23] <LDS_Trooper> But I did not come to get into a discussion on Design fanatics
[03:24] <LDS_Trooper> The reality is that when someone is introduced to Ubuntu they look for similarity from their native OS.. win or mac
[03:24] <LDS_Trooper> "But windows did this"
[03:24] <LDS_Trooper> that's for the programmers
[03:25] <LDS_Trooper> For the arts.. one must realize that Win and Mac have been copying the Linux crowd for years
[03:26] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Hrm... I think Mac doesn't bother to look outside of itself at all when it comes to computing.  Their designers are well educated and know enough about looking to externals such as architecture, pop culture, etc.
 The reality is that when someone is introduced to Ubuntu they look for similarity from their native OS
[03:27] <troy_s> I would suggest that a good percentage of those that are drawn to Ubuntu choose Ubuntu because it is _different_.
[03:28] <LDS_Trooper> Indeed
[03:28] <LDS_Trooper> users like myself are simply fed up with Windows and their "BS"
[03:30] <troy_s> completely.
[03:30] <troy_s> and slowly the world is being exposed to the more ethical approach of free software, which is a positive.
[03:31] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: But you still haven't said where you would drive Ubuntu if you were in charge :)
[03:32] <LDS_Trooper> Visually I would go in a similar direction as it is now.. but in a more focused manner
[03:32] <LDS_Trooper> I like the organic feel
[03:32] <troy_s> Hrm... what component do you think feels organic?
[03:33] <LDS_Trooper> the visuals
[03:33] <LDS_Trooper> the colors
[03:34] <troy_s> Hrm... there is one colour.  So you connect the brown to organic which is a positive.
[03:34] <troy_s> I would agree, I think the brown base tone is a wise avenue.  (Wiser if it had supporting players, but that is another story)
[03:35] <LDS_Trooper> but then you have users out there wondering when Ubuntu will get out of the brown/orange mix
[03:36] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: And your thoughts?
[03:36] <LDS_Trooper> Well I would offer two opposing themes on the same focus..
[03:37] <LDS_Trooper> one would be organic/earthy the other.. well Icy and cool blues..
[03:37] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Does that tackle the fact that when Ubuntu is displayed it is displayed with default wallpaper?
[03:37] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: And the last thing that Ubuntu needs in my opinion is YABW.
[03:37] <troy_s> http://shots.osdir.com/
[03:37] <troy_s> all the blue you want.
[03:37] <LDS_Trooper> lol
[03:38] <LDS_Trooper> this what I am getting at...
[03:38] <LDS_Trooper> Ubuntu could come ahead by informing its users
[03:38] <troy_s> of?
[03:39] <LDS_Trooper> well options
[03:39] <LDS_Trooper> how to customize.. what's out there.. where to get it
[03:40] <LDS_Trooper> anywho.. I do need to run.
[03:40] <LDS_Trooper> when are you on mostly?
[03:40] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Good chat... idle on here when you can.
[03:40] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: During the week I tend to work about 14+ hours per day, so once per evening at around 930 or so Pacific.
[03:41] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Weekends more.
[03:41] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: Drop me some email, I'd love to hear your thoughts etc...
[03:41] <LDS_Trooper> Sounds good
[03:41] <LDS_Trooper> we are an hour apart no?
[03:41] <LDS_Trooper> 19:40 hear
[03:41] <troy_s> LDS_Trooper: I am always interested in collaborating with people who are dedicated.
[03:41] <troy_s> Yeah I think alberta is 1 hour...
[03:41] <troy_s> Time now for you?  641 here.
[03:42] <troy_s> 741 there?
[03:42] <LDS_Trooper> yes 19:41
[03:42] <LDS_Trooper> sorry I use miliary time
[03:42] <troy_s> erk yeah
[03:42] <troy_s> probably better :)
[03:42] <troy_s> so one hour.
[03:42] <LDS_Trooper> see you tomorrow evening sometime
[03:42] <troy_s> OK ... well send me some email my friend.
[03:42] <troy_s> Yeah... take care.
[03:43] <LDS_Trooper> maybe we can get passed some of this and actually look at some work
[03:44] <troy_s> Absolutely...
[03:44] <LDS_Trooper> later
[12:44] <Darth_Gimp> kwwii, you there?
[12:47] <kwwii> hehe, give me a chance
[05:41] <Instabin|work> could someone fix my submition https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Blubuntu/BlubuntuWallpaper
[05:41] <Instabin|work> its at the bottom
[06:06] <Instabin|work> Never mind i figured it out
[06:12] <LDS_Trooper> greets
[09:18] <lapo> hi
[10:10] <Instabin|work> take a look at the wall paper I made and let me know what you think https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Blubuntu/BlubuntuWallpaper


[00:19] <dajhorn>  How can I get the regular dpkg and apt-get at the rescue prompt of the alternative Natty installer?
[00:21] <kklimonda> dajhorn: what rescue prompt is that?
[00:22] <kklimonda> dajhorn: both apt and dpkg are on your disk, and are available if you get to the point where both / and /usr are mounted.
[00:23] <dajhorn> kklimonda: The shell prompt that you get if the installer is canceled or fails.
[00:24] <dajhorn> kklimonda: Only udpkg and the apt-install / apt-setup helpers are available at this prompt.
[00:27] <kklimonda> dajhorn: if you have ar, gz and tar you can unpack any deb
[00:27] <gordonjcp> right, half an hour in and I've nearly gone blind
[00:27] <gordonjcp> is there a way to disable the drop-shadow on windows in Unity
[00:27] <gordonjcp> ?
[00:27] <kklimonda> gordonjcp: probably in ccsm?
[00:28] <kklimonda> dajhorn: but I'm not sure how far will it get you
[00:28] <gordonjcp> kklimonda: that doesn't appear to be in Natty
[00:28] <dajhorn> kklimonda: Indeed, and I can use udpkg to install from the /pool, but manually walking the dependencies takes a long time.
[00:28] <kklimonda> dajhorn: right, but it's an emergency
[00:29] <gordonjcp> maybe I need to be running an installed version rather than off the live USB disk image
[00:29] <kklimonda> you can try installing ccsm, it's in universe afair
[00:30] <kklimonda> dajhorn: also, apt doesn't have many dependencies
[00:30] <kklimonda> neither do dpkg
[00:32] <dajhorn> kklimonda: It is a bunch.  I got stuck at the libc dependencies and the empty /var/lib/dpkg.
[00:33] <dajhorn> kklimonda: I got a bug report that APT in the alternative environment is resolving package dependencies differently than the regular desktop environment.
[00:57] <storrgie> How do I do multiple firefox instances with unity?
[00:58] <Gulfstream> how do I scale the CPU when using Unity?
[01:00] <ali1234> storrgie: instances or windows?
[01:00] <storrgie> windows/tabs
[01:00] <ali1234> storrgie: you have to do file -> new window in ff
[01:00] <storrgie> then how do i switch between them?
[01:00] <storrgie> how do I use panorama?
[01:01] <ali1234> when you click on the panel it will show all of them, then click the one you want
[01:01] <ali1234> is panorama that new thing if ff4? if so, i have no idea
[01:26] <gordonjcp> kklimonda: I tried installing ccsm but all I managed to do was crash compiz
[01:26] <gordonjcp> kklimonda: is there anything else I can do to get rid of the drop shadows?
[01:46] <coz_> gordonjcp,  I didnt see you post here :)  but pick it up tomorrow... many are generally during the day hours
[01:46] <gordonjcp> yeah
[01:47] <gordonjcp> to be honest I probably won't use unity anyway
[01:47] <gordonjcp> it's too hard to use without some means of seeing which apps have windows open
[01:48] <gordonjcp> there's the launcher but I don't like having to mouse over each square in turn to see what it is
[01:49] <mhall119> gordonjcp: the icon in the laucher gets a small overlay when it has open windows
[01:49] <gordonjcp> mhall119: right
[01:49] <gordonjcp> but you still have to mouse over it to get the text label to pop up
[01:49] <mhall119> oh, text label, yes
[01:50] <gordonjcp> it's a bit of a usability fail
[01:50] <mhall119> such is the way of docks it seems
[01:50] <gordonjcp> I guess I could stick post-its to the side of the screen lined up with each little square
[01:50] <mhall119> heh
[01:51] <grusum> gordonjcp, u get used to it - took me abt day and half - no prob now
[01:51] <mhall119> why do you want to see which apps have open windows?
[01:51] <gordonjcp> mhall119: well, I quite frequently switch between windows
[01:51] <gordonjcp> mhall119: usually I have gedit open and a couple of terminals
[01:51] <mhall119> right, same here
[01:51] <grusum> gordonjcp, alt-tab still works
[01:51] <gordonjcp> so I have to stop and work my way down each square and mouse over it to see what it is
[01:52] <gordonjcp> grusum: true
[01:52] <mhall119> ah
[01:52] <gordonjcp> I can't really "see" icons, it's a dyslexia thing
[01:52] <mhall119> compiz + scale + scale filter for me
[01:52] <gordonjcp> what does that do?
[01:52] <mhall119> scale shows all your open windows, scaled down so you can see them all without overlap
[01:53] <mhall119> scale filter let's you type some text, and any window that doesn't have that text in it's title goes away
[01:53] <gordonjcp> getting back to my original problem, does anyone know how to make the huge drop shadows around the selected window go away?
[01:53] <mhall119> so I press F12 (my scale trigger), type "gedit", and all I see are my gedit windows, side by side, ready for me to pick which one to switch to
[01:54] <mhall119> gordonjcp: get compizconfig-settings-manager and you can change the shadow radius in the window decorators plugin
[01:54] <gordonjcp> mhall119: I tried that, it doesn't seem to have any effect
[01:55] <mhall119> hmmm...
[01:55] <mhall119> maybe they changed it in Unity
[01:55]  * mhall119 is still on Maverick
[02:21] <bpr> Is there a way to display an image in the message area of a libnotify bubble?
[02:26] <trism> bpr: the body of the message has to be a string, so you would need to use markup, but I don't know if any notification daemons support the image tag
[02:28] <robin0800> bpr, most music players display album art in notifications
[02:29] <bpr> i'm seeing in the pynotify module there's a property called attach-widget for the Notification object
[02:29] <bpr> so, i'm thinking that may be the way
[02:30] <bpr> robin0800: don't most music players put the album art in the icon area, rather than the body area?
[02:31] <robin0800> bpr, yes but they are not icons are they?
[02:31] <bpr> I'm actually making a system to enable rating the currently playing song (1-5 stars).  I'd like to display the number of stars that the song chas been changed to
[02:31] <bpr> robin0800: right, they're images, but they're not in the body of the notify bubble
[02:32] <bpr> hrm.. let me see if it does the right thing if I just use the icon area
[02:32] <bpr> s/song chas/song has/
[02:35] <gordonjcp> bpr: unicode stars...
[02:36] <bpr> gordonjcp: interesting
[02:38] <bpr> gordon, i think that's probably gunna be perfect
[02:38] <bpr> thanks!
[02:38] <MaximLevitsky> any ideas:
[02:38] <MaximLevitsky> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-settings-daemon/+bug/728803
[02:39] <MaximLevitsky> I bet here many users use ubuntu in the vbox
[02:39] <MaximLevitsky> any workarounds?
[04:42] <bpr> is there a way to get the ubuntu1 client to stop spamming libnotify?
[04:47] <robin0800> bpr, you can uncheck notifications in devices in its control panel
[04:50] <bpr> robin0800: ty
[04:51] <bpr> wow, that was clear as day, but somehow i couldn't see that earlier
[04:52] <bpr> btw, is there a config somewhere that allows you to blacklist (or whitelist) apps from using libnotify?
[04:52] <bpr> at the libnotify lvl perhaps?
[05:11] <Mathuin> Is two-factor authentication on the roadmap for Natty or any later version?
[05:43] <whereami> so, how do I go back to the traditional interface? Is there a plan for some sort of introduction? I find discoverability of this interface to be terrible.
[05:44] <duanedesign> whereami: when booting select classic  desktop
[05:44] <whereami> when booting? or in gdm?
[05:45] <duanedesign> yes
[05:45] <duanedesign> when entering your password
[05:46] <whereami> okay, thanks. I haven't quite given up on this yet, but that's good to know. So far I'm not impressed.
[05:46] <whereami> what's this thing called, so I know where to find and file bugs?
[05:46] <duanedesign> if you enter what you are looking for into the dash it should show up
[05:47] <whereami> what is "the dash"?
[05:47] <duanedesign> when you press the 'super' key or click the ubuntu logo
[05:47] <duanedesign> in the top left
[05:48] <whereami> righto
[05:48] <whereami> is there a keyboard shortcut to the workspace switcher?
[05:49] <whereami> also, is there a keyboard shortcut to the menu bar? I can't access menus because I use focus-follows-mouse...
[05:50] <duanedesign> http://www.ubuntugeek.com/list-of-ubuntu-unity-keyboard-shortcuts.html
[05:50] <whereami> "unity"? is that what this thing is called?
[05:51] <whereami> alright.
[05:51] <whereami> thanks for the help, btw.
[05:51] <duanedesign> unity is the shell that runs on Gnome
[05:51] <whereami> sorry if I'm in grumpy mode... :/
[05:51] <duanedesign> no worries
[05:52] <duanedesign> alt + tab  right/left arrow is how i switch workspaces
[05:52] <duanedesign> oops
[05:52] <duanedesign> ctrl + alt
[05:52] <duanedesign> left/right arrow
[05:52] <duanedesign> and up/down
[05:52] <whereami> cool
[05:53] <whereami> I'll find in CCSM how to re-enable edge switching.
[06:02] <whereami> hmm, I guess edge switching just doesn't work... gonna get my bug on... a little later.
[06:03] <bpr> whereami: iirc F10 will get you into the menu
[06:04] <bpr> yup
[06:05] <bpr> for a lot of pretty good info on the new interface check: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity
[06:14] <whereami> bpr, yeah, I found that, thanks. unfortunately, I guess the menus don't work with all apps... eg, xchat only brings up a "File" menu with a single greyed-out "Close" entry.
[08:03] <gordonjcp> any clues as to where the settings are hidden?
[08:11] <whereami> gordonjcp, search for "settings" is how I found them.
[08:12] <whereami> Are there any replacements for panel apps in unity? specifically, I'm missing the system monitoring graphs.
[08:13] <whereami> also, how the heck do you get the menus for xchat? they don't appear in the app menu area.
[09:49] <varun> hi friends,today my system is becoming slow, so i did top in the terminal,i came to know that 99% of memory is earting by indicator applet,why that much of memory is taking,is there any way to stop that process?
[09:53] <varun> http://pastebin.com/rz22Zxd9
[09:57] <mfraz74> Any one else seeing this bug? #744834
[10:56] <xAndromeda> do you guys know wher i could find the settings for unity?
[10:57] <gordonjcp> xAndromeda: I was looking for them too
[10:58] <gordonjcp> xAndromeda: they turned out to be in the menu when you click on the little circle thing in the top right
[10:59] <psypher246> hello all. Could someone please confirm that you have to actually click on the ubuntu logo to get the launcher to come up, mouse over does not work and moving your mouse to the left of the screen does not unhide either. Is this a bug or a feature?
[11:20] <drommy> heys
[11:20] <drommy> anybody here? O.o
[11:21] <gordonjcp> quite a few people, by the looks of it
[11:23] <drommy> *criket* lol
[11:23] <drommy> hey um do you know how i can change unity so that when i launch app finder/launcher etc it dosnt take up the eintire screen?
[11:45] <drommy> *criket*
[11:55] <rocky> so... what would cause /var/lib/dpkg/alternatives to be turned into a file (and thus breaking apt-get install) and how do i fix it? :)
[11:57] <roffe> webgl, does it work for anyone else in natty with an ati card?
[12:21] <psypher246> hello all. Could someone please confirm that you have to actually click on the ubuntu logo to get the launcher to come up, mouse over does not work and moving your mouse to the left of the screen does not unhide either. Is this a bug or a feature?
[12:32] <penguin42> psypher246: In my setup it's very odd, generally if I move over the icon it half appears - literally appears but shaded out, I have to click to get it to appear
[12:33] <psypher246> penguin42: yup exactly what i get
[12:33] <psypher246> very annoying
[12:33] <penguin42> psypher246: Do you have autohide enabled?
[12:33] <psypher246> penguin42: whatever the default is, i just installed and updated, I would say it's more like intellihide
[12:34] <penguin42> interesting, I'd assumed it was because I'd enabled autohide
[12:34] <psypher246> what is also anjnoying is this:
[12:34] <psypher246> open fullscreen ap
[12:35] <psypher246> now click logo
[12:35] <psypher246> now click workspace switcher
[12:35] <psypher246> nothing happen and one sec later the luancher huides again
[12:35] <psypher246> you have to click workspaces twice to get focus on it
[12:36] <psypher246> and not as fast a doubleclick but not too slow or launcher disappears
[12:37] <psypher246> the whole things behavoiur is just wrong and weird and cumbersome, does anyone know if this is feature or bug?
[13:09] <xAndromeda> lol
[13:09] <xAndromeda> i thought that too
[13:09] <xAndromeda> but if you move to top left corner
[13:09] <xAndromeda> the bar becomes solid
[13:09] <xAndromeda> im still trying to figure out how to resize the dammed launcher thingy though
[13:09] <xAndromeda> it looks so ugly full screen
[13:10] <xAndromeda> so big and pixillated
[13:15] <psypher246> xAndromeda: not gonna happen for now i reckon
[13:15] <psypher246> I HOPE canonical relaise that nothing short of a FULYL customizable, themeable and hacable launcher is acceptable
[13:16] <psypher246> xAndromeda: i see what u mean about the launcher now, not easy to spot when u using it in a vbox window
[13:18] <xAndromeda> lol :P
[13:18] <psypher246> NOW thats MUCH better
[13:18] <xAndromeda> hey
[13:18] <xAndromeda> when you click the application drawer
[13:18] <xAndromeda> or the unity menue thing
[13:18] <psypher246> ok that i mist say answer my qorries about muyltiple screens
[13:18] <psypher246> worries*
[13:18] <xAndromeda> does the search ting appear full screen?
[13:19] <psypher246> cos is i have a screen to the left i don't want the launcher popping up each time i move left
[13:19] <psypher246> xAndromeda: oh u mean the search screen not the launcher bar
[13:19] <xAndromeda> yeah that
[13:20] <xAndromeda> from the pics i saw it was supposed to have a resize button
[13:20] <xAndromeda> on the lower right
[13:20] <psypher246> so when u click the ubuntu logo u get search box and shortcuts?
[13:20] <xAndromeda> but i dont see it, its full screen al lthe time
[13:20] <psypher246> pres esc
[13:20] <psypher246> then click it again
[13:20] <psypher246> then it's a smaller window again
[13:21] <psypher246> with the resize button botom right
[13:21] <xAndromeda> nope
[13:21] <xAndromeda> esc just exits the menue
[13:21] <xAndromeda> *menu
[13:21] <psypher246> yes then click again
[13:21] <psypher246> icon
[13:21] <psypher246> log i mean
[13:21] <psypher246> on mine its smaller again
[13:21] <xAndromeda> log?
[13:21] <psypher246> logo*
[13:22] <xAndromeda> :/
[13:22] <xAndromeda> what version do you have
[13:22] <xAndromeda> theres only 1 version right?
[13:22] <psypher246> yeah, fully updated natty
[13:22] <psypher246> u sure it's running 3d and not 2d?
[13:22] <xAndromeda> yep
[13:23] <xAndromeda> its a tiny thing
[13:23] <psypher246> applications and files and folders has the same thing
[13:23] <xAndromeda> but its really starting to piss me off :(
[13:23] <psypher246> click applications on launcher, it's a small window, make it large then press esc and then if i click on it again it's smaller again
[13:24] <xAndromeda> exactly! every time i click it i see massive freaking icons :(
[13:24] <psypher246> oh
[13:24] <psypher246> i thought u meant the window
[13:24] <psypher246> yeah the icons are massive
[13:24] <psypher246> the window has 2 sizes
[13:24] <psypher246> small and fullscreen
[13:24] <xAndromeda> mine only has 1 :(
[13:24] <psypher246> but the icons stay the same
[13:25] <xAndromeda> i wonder if theres i file i can edit somewhere
[13:25] <psypher246> must say the coner thing is a little annoying too
[13:25] <psypher246> corner
[13:25] <psypher246> cos i have screen on the left
[13:25] <psypher246> have to be precise to get that co
[13:26] <xAndromeda> yeah
[13:26] <psypher246> corner or the mouse goes to the left screen
[13:26] <xAndromeda> its also annoying to switch workspaces
[13:26] <xAndromeda> you ahve to go to the corner then the button
[13:26] <xAndromeda> thank god for compiz
[13:27] <psypher246> i must admirt i rarely use the workspaces even on ghnome
[13:27] <psypher246> ctr-alt left right up down is all i use
[13:27] <psypher246> i only use the workspaces whenni wanna move apps around
[13:28] <psypher246> can see that i will be using the windows key a lot in natty
[13:28] <xAndromeda> lol
[13:28] <xAndromeda> i love workspaces
[13:28] <xAndromeda> i went back to windows
[13:28] <xAndromeda> last week
[13:29] <xAndromeda> couldnt stand it
[13:29] <psypher246> Windows as in M$?
[13:29] <xAndromeda> yeah lol
[13:29] <psypher246> blergh
[13:29] <psypher246> @#% THAT
[13:29] <psypher246> NEVAAAA
[13:29] <psypher246> hehe
[13:29] <xAndromeda> i sorta like the aero glass though
[13:30] <psypher246> meh
[13:30] <xAndromeda> it looks pretty cool
[13:30] <psypher246> for all the productivity I get out of ubuntu/linux, I will NEVER go back to windows
[13:30] <xAndromeda> especially with chrome
[13:30] <xAndromeda> which looks like shit on linux :/
[13:30] <psypher246> yeah chrome does look cool
[13:30] <psypher246> yeah
[13:30] <psypher246> still, i can't work in windows anyjmore, retarded IMHO
[13:31] <psypher246> in ubunut, i'm just happy
[13:31] <xAndromeda> same when i stopped playing games the only reason i kept windows was so my friend can borrow it
[13:31] <xAndromeda> and not get completly lost lol
[13:32] <psypher246> only use i have for windows is for it be my gaming console, virus and crapware free, i love it and at work i use a vm for IE and outlook
[13:33] <xAndromeda> lol
[13:33] <xAndromeda> IE @_@
[13:34] <psypher246> what can i do, my work uses a retarded activex CRm app only
[13:34] <xAndromeda> lol
[13:34] <psypher246> and that integrates with outlook
[13:34] <psypher246> else i am always in thunderbird
[13:35] <psypher246> with imap it's the only stable way to talk to exchange
[13:36] <xAndromeda> :P
[13:36] <xAndromeda> ima go to bed, hopefully reinstalling natty will fix things lol
[13:39] <xAndromeda> actually screw it, ill wait untill the beta lol
[14:02] <BluesKaj> Hiyas
[14:57] <admiralf> hey folks, i recently wanted to upgrade my kubuntu 10.10 to 11.04 because the summer term starts next week, but when i fired up the daily build in an VM it killed X.org and/or KDE while initilaising Akonadi
[14:57] <admiralf> i  didnt had a deeper look into that issue, but id like to here if this is known?
[14:57] <admiralf> hear
[15:02] <charlie-tca> Is that https://launchpad.net/bugs/744944
[15:03] <genii-around> charlie-tca: And alternately if you booted to single user and updated, it then tries to start kdm
[15:04] <admiralf> i didnt upgrade, i tried the Daily Build Desktop CD
[15:04] <admiralf> in virtualbox
[15:05] <charlie-tca> There are a couple of other bugs, I don't have the numbers, in work right now. there will be a new daily published in a while for Kubuntu
[15:06] <charlie-tca> The beta comes out thursday, so qa is testing this week, and the images will be rebuilt a few times
[15:08] <admiralf> ok thanks, then i will wait till 1.4.
[15:23] <coz_>   hey guys
[15:29] <Muschel> hi
[15:29] <Muschel> question !!
[15:29] <Gulfstream2> what is the new way to scale the CPU to performance?
[15:30] <Muschel> task manager
[15:30] <Muschel> hehe
[15:30] <Muschel> hehe
[15:30] <patdk-wk> vm's :)
[15:32] <Muschel> question:
[15:32] <Muschel> will the ubuntu 11.04 get a new design ?
[15:32] <popey> o_O
[15:32] <popey> have you been living under a rock!?
[15:33] <popey> yes, it has a new desktop :)
[15:33] <Muschel> i meant the design ;)
[15:33] <Gulfstream2> Unity
[15:33] <Muschel> desktop i saw
[15:33] <Muschel> but ambiance changing
[15:33] <popey> it will be tweaked
[15:34] <popey> but not a brand new one, I wouldnt have thought
[15:34] <Muschel> to the desktop
[15:35] <Muschel> ok
[15:35] <Muschel> but i really would happy
[15:35] <Muschel> then
[15:35] <Muschel> but if no then no
[15:35] <Gulfstream2> how do I scale the CPU to performance in Unity?
[15:35] <Muschel> Gulfstream2: uname -r you can find the kerne
[15:35] <Muschel> kernel
[15:35] <yofel>  he means by GUI
[15:36] <Gulfstream2> yeah by GUI
[15:37] <Gulfstream2> it appears to be already at performance, from what sysinfo says
[15:37] <yofel> shouldn't be, it's set to performance in ther kernel, but the system sets it to ondemand after boot
[15:40] <Gulfstream2> it is running at full 1.6Ghz, and the computer appears to be really slow right now... is there a way to load apps to RAM in 11.04?
[15:53] <irv> has anyone experienced windows 7 suspend features stop working after installing 11.04 alpha along side?
[16:15] <Muschel> question
[16:16] <Gulfstream2> answer
[16:19] <Muschel> please can ubuntu GIVE ALL!
[16:19] <Muschel> EVERYTHIN G!
[16:19] <Muschel> to make ubuntu the best
[16:49] <BUGabundo> meh
[16:49] <BUGabundo> manage to break my PulseAudio a bit more
[16:49] <BUGabundo> fuuuuu
[16:50] <Dr_Willis> Hmm.
[16:50] <shaneo> someone please help http://i51.tinypic.com/2nao4df.png
[16:54] <charlie-tca> Hello, BUGabundo
[16:54] <BUGabundo> hey charlie-tca
[16:55] <charlie-tca> You can't break PA all the way just one time around?
[16:55] <IdleOne> !upgrade
[16:56] <charlie-tca> I must be doing it wrong. Ever since I quit listening to all the ideas to make PA work, I have had no problems with it.
[17:00] <IdleOne> charlie-tca: if it ain't broke don't fix it :)
[17:00] <IdleOne> I let PA do what it does and I have no problems either
[17:01] <BUGabundo> eheh
[17:01] <BUGabundo> mine was boken
[17:01] <BUGabundo> *broken
[17:01] <BUGabundo> now its worse
[17:01] <BUGabundo> need to get crisum
[17:02] <IdleOne> So should I do an upgrade to natty?
[17:02] <yofel> hm, does unity work with nvidia by now?
[17:03] <Pici> IdleOne: you haven't already
[17:03] <charlie-tca> I am testing the upgrades now
[17:03] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu seems to work fine, xubuntu is in process of upgrading good so far
[17:03] <charlie-tca> Of course, that is still 2 hours to go on Xubuntu
[17:03] <IdleOne> Pici: I did a clean install of 10.10 about 2-3 months ago (feels like longer) and since then I haven't felt like dealing with brokenness
[17:03] <BluesKaj> I deleted PA as soon as I upgraded... it leaves out too many options and another distortion layer of digital processing isn't needed
[17:04] <bjsnider> yofel, sure does. quite well
[17:04] <IdleOne> ah, heck with it. I am going to jump in the pool.
[17:04] <yofel> hm, then I'll try it again later, all my attempts this month ended with compiz crashes
[17:04] <yofel> that apport couldn't retrace -.-
[17:05] <BluesKaj> kde4.6 is working quite well so far on natty , I'm kinda pleased :)
[17:05] <IdleOne> Fetching!
[17:06] <yofel> +1 for KDE
[17:06] <yofel> except nepomuk and strigi still don't quite work right, take far too much resources after login :S
[17:07] <BluesKaj> yofel, just disable it in startup services , unless you rely on it.
[17:08] <yofel> I have it disabled but gave it a try again a week ago. No, not something I want to have on all the time...
[17:10] <charlie-tca> PA lets me have sound on both my hardware installation and my VirtualBox installs
[17:10] <gordonjcp> can anyone tell me how to get rid of the drop shadow on windows in Natty?
[17:11] <BluesKaj> I personally don't feel the need for indexing/search services , wish i could just remove it , but it tries to remove the whole desktop. afaik
[17:11] <gordonjcp> basically the drop shadow and pulseaudio are the two main things remaining that stop me being able to use Ubuntu
[17:12] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Use compizconfig settings manager
[17:12] <gordonjcp> the lack of a taskbar is merely annoying
[17:12] <gordonjcp> penguin42: it doesn't work
[17:12] <penguin42> gordonjcp: In the 'window decorations' tab there is a  'shadow radius'
[17:12] <gordonjcp> penguin42: yeah, it has no effect on the shadow
[17:13] <kroson> hi people, do you think that ubuntu 11.04 beta is good for daily usage?
[17:13] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Hmph, how about the 'shadow windows -> any' setting at the bottom?
[17:14] <gordonjcp> penguin42: I can't see that anywhere
[17:14] <penguin42> it's on the window decorations tab for me, at the bottom
[17:15] <gordonjcp> ah, yeah, right there; what should I set it to?
[17:15] <gordonjcp> "none" seems to have no effect
[17:15] <penguin42> gordonjcp: That would have been my guess
[17:15] <gordonjcp> should ccsm changes take effect immediately?
[17:16] <gordonjcp> okay, I've been at this for ten minutes now, I have to give up
[17:16] <kroson> [17:13] <kroson> hi people, do you think that ubuntu 11.04 beta is good for daily usage? -> anyone?
[17:16] <penguin42> gordonjcp: They seem to here; and certainly reducing the shadow radius works
[17:16] <gordonjcp> penguin42: it's having no effect here
[17:16] <gordonjcp> penguin42: sorry, I have to reboot back into normal Linux, this has given me a blinding headache
[17:16] <gordonjcp> brb
[17:17] <gordonjcp> kroson: absolutely not, as far as I'm concerned
[17:17] <kroson> gordonjcp: are there many things to fix until final?
[17:17] <kroson> im thinking about trying linux again, but dont know if unity is a good alternative :S
[17:18] <kroson> never tested it xD
[17:18] <penguin42> kroson: You don't have to use unity in Natty, you can still use the old mode
[17:18] <penguin42> kroson: So give it a go, if you don't like it you can use 'classic' mode
[17:18] <gordonjcp> I really wanted to like Unity, but it's just horrible
[17:18] <kroson> penguin42: is it default?
[17:18] <penguin42> kroson: Yes it is, but on the login box you can just pick classic from a menu at the bottom
[17:18] <kroson> gordonjcp: which one do you think is better? unity or gnome-shell?
[17:19] <kroson> penguin42: will it be gnome 3 or 2.32?
[17:19] <gordonjcp> kroson: neither, they're both unusable
[17:19] <penguin42> gordonjcp: It's a million times better than it was a month or two back, another million would be good
[17:19] <penguin42> kroson: 2.32
[17:19]  * penguin42 would like to give Gnome 3 a go
[17:19] <gordonjcp> penguin42: if I could just get rid of the little squares down the side and get a proper taskbar it would be okay
[17:19] <kroson> penguin42: i like that canonical tries to differentiate its distro from all others
[17:19] <kroson> by creating a new DE
[17:19] <penguin42> gordonjcp: So drop back to classic then
[17:21] <kroson> gordonjcp: i think you maybe have to get used to it
[17:21] <gordonjcp> kroson: I can't
[17:21] <kroson> yes its different, it looks like an App store or something lol
[17:21]  * penguin42 has switched to KDE4 on ----> that machine, it's getting there
[17:21] <gordonjcp> kroson: it's too reliant on hiding text behind little squares
[17:21] <kroson> penguin42: KDE4 seems to be the DE that always has a bug to fix
[17:21] <gordonjcp> so instead of actually seeing what your app is called, you've got to mouse over the row of little squares every time
[17:22] <kroson> i think its slowness may be considered a bug xD
[17:22] <penguin42> kroson: And there is a DE that doesn't have that description?
[17:22] <kroson> penguin42: you know what i mean, gnome tends to be more stable
[17:22] <penguin42> kroson: I think KDE4 might have actually got there
[17:22] <gordonjcp> kroson: also, Natty has FF4 so forget using it for web development
[17:23] <gordonjcp> and get used to seeing adverts again
[17:25] <kroson> penguin42: how is KDE4 on kubuntu 11.04?
[17:26] <penguin42> kroson: It's pretty sweet for me
[17:27] <penguin42> kroson: There are some things I prefer about gnome (in particular it's handling of multiple desktops)
[17:28] <kroson> yea
[17:29] <penguin42> and I can trigger a really nasty Radeon driver screwup; but hey I'm using the open driver and I don't think it's KDEs fault
[17:29] <gordonjcp> well, "Classic" mode gets rid of the drop shadows etc
[17:29] <gordonjcp> I could probably get used to not knowing what apps are called without hovering over the squares
[17:30] <gordonjcp> why on earth is the "taskbar" down the side anyway?
[17:30] <penguin42> you still seeing that in classic?
[17:30] <gordonjcp> and how do you get it back if something has pushed it off to the left?
[17:30] <gordonjcp> no, it's not in classic
[17:30] <gordonjcp> I'm determined to give unity a chance, *if* I can get rid of the drop shadows
[17:31] <penguin42> gordonjcp: You can get the bar back by clicking on the ubuntu icon a t top left
[17:31] <gordonjcp> penguin42: when I tried that it brought up a big black box with squares in it
[17:31] <penguin42> gordonjcp: the squares should be icons for all the available apps
[17:31] <gordonjcp> I don't know
[17:31] <gordonjcp> I can't tell what they are, they're just squares
[17:32] <penguin42> gordonjcp: I think what they're trying to do is to make it work for touchscreens and tablets
[17:32] <gordonjcp> hm, I don't have a touchscreen or a tablet
[17:32] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Hmm shouldn't just be squares; that's a bug
[17:32] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Neither do I
[17:32] <gordonjcp> penguin42: they're probably *not* squares
[17:32] <gordonjcp> but I can't actually see what they are
[17:32] <gordonjcp> it's a kind of visual dyslexia thing
[17:32] <gordonjcp> I have no idea what icons are
[17:33] <charlie-tca> hovering over the squares/icons should give a name
[17:33] <gordonjcp> it does, but that's a pain in the arse
[17:33] <gordonjcp> especially when they take up so much room
[17:33] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Ah right, hmm then this interface really is going to suck for you
[17:33] <charlie-tca> +1 on pain
[17:34] <charlie-tca> pretty much useless for those that can not use the hardware keyboard, too
[17:35] <penguin42> charlie-tca: Why do you say that?
[17:35] <charlie-tca> because to type in the dash search, requires a hardware keyboard. It disappears when trying to use Onboard
[17:36] <charlie-tca> I haven't investigated further to see what else requires hardware keys only
[17:37] <charlie-tca> those who can not use the mouse are in trouble too
[17:37] <e01> hello, can i ask for a help
[17:37] <charlie-tca> Please ask your question all in one line. All of us are volunteers and will attempt to answer if we know.
[17:37] <gordonjcp> !ask | e01
[17:37] <e01> i was installed from repository gnome-shell, after while i was purging the ppa, but i still can`t get back the native gnome from the ubuntu natty
[17:38] <e01> the ppa for the gnome3 i was get from the ppa:gnome3-team/gnome3
[17:38] <e01> any idea how to fix it without preinstall?
[17:38] <penguin42> e01: Have you used ppa-purge?
[17:40] <e01> penguin42, yes, sudo ppa-purge ppa:gnome3-team/gnome3
[17:40] <penguin42> e01: Hmm, then try apt-get install ubuntu-desktop ?
[17:41] <e01> penguin42, i was try it, but it just install libreoffice that i was removed before
[17:41] <penguin42> e01: and what happens if you try and login to a gnome session?
[17:42] <e01> ehm.., i am getting a ugly gtk with many errors with cancel and send report
[17:42] <e01> themes not apply, i think i am with gtk3 for default
[17:43] <penguin42> e01: I think I would try clearing out all my .gtk/.gnome dot files
[17:47] <e01> penguin42, will try
[17:55] <kroson> penguin42: so ubuntu 11.04 won't have gnome 3.0?
[17:56] <penguin42> kroson: That's my understanding
[18:02] <Muschel> ubuntu  11.04 have gnom3
[18:02] <Muschel> not the gnome shell unity
[18:04] <BUGabundo> anyone know off a app or fuse to access amazon cloud drive?
[18:08] <Daekdroom> Muschel, it uses GNOME 2.32
[18:08] <Muschel> yes but
[18:08] <Muschel> i believe it gnome 3 is out
[18:08] <Muschel> it will be there then
[18:09] <Muschel> only with the unity shell
[18:09] <Daekdroom> Nope. 11.04 will use 2.32 regardless.
[18:09] <Daekdroom> A transition to GNOME 3 needs so many changes in too little time they're delaying it to 11.10
[18:28] <Daekdroom> Is anyone else having problems with gcalctool crashing?
[18:30] <yofel> Daekdroom: crashed here when I switched it to advanced view
[18:30] <Daekdroom> Must be why I can't start it
[18:41] <nperry> Hummm I wonder where ubuntu mono font is
[18:41] <nperry> !info ubuntu-font
[18:41] <IdleOne> Reboot!
[18:45] <yofel> Daekdroom: bug 744798 was the crash I got
[18:55] <ChrisBuchholz> Now that we got "love handles" in Natty, will there be a way to set up multitouch gestures on your own? I have Super+W set fire the scale plugin in Compiz, but i would love to have a way to set three-fingers-pull-up to it also. I should be possible, since the multitouch things are already implemented. Is it possible, or will it be in the near future?
[18:58] <IdleOne> How do I add indicator-weather to the panel?
[18:59] <ChrisBuchholz> IdleOne: i believe its bugged
[19:00] <IdleOne> figures
[19:00] <ChrisBuchholz> you can google it, theres ways described to get it working
[19:04] <mobster> ati 11.3 driver released few hours back. will it support natty?
[19:15] <gnomefreak> i am here right?
[19:15] <Pici> gnomefreak: no, you're there.
[19:15]  * yofel looks through gnomefreaks ghost
[19:16] <gnomefreak> thanks. network is extreamly slow, takes >3minutes to open google.com
[19:16] <charlie-tca> gnomefreak: doesn't appear so
[19:16] <gnomefreak> after updates i guess i will work on it again
[19:17] <gnomefreak> if they start
[19:18]  * yofel gives unity another go
[19:19] <gnomefreak> is there a command to find out the speed of the network is at
[19:20] <gnomefreak> it should be at least 200mbps but i can say it is no where in the area of that today
[19:21] <gnomefreak> from what update is giving me its ~600kbps
[19:21] <gnomefreak> 78% [36 Sources 654 kB/865 kB 75%]
[19:22] <gnomefreak> in nm it is telling me its at 100mbps
[19:22] <yofel> and compiz still crashes...
[19:22] <trijntje> maybe the server is busy, cant you run an online speedtest?
[19:22] <gnomefreak> well that is one thing its not doing here
[19:23] <gnomefreak> trijntje: not sure how
[19:23] <yofel> unity-2d is somewhat nice, but I'm not sure if I could get used to it
[19:23] <yofel> gnomefreak: what's the ping time?
[19:24] <gnomefreak> 16 packets transmitted, 14 received, 12% packet loss, time 21116ms
[19:24] <IdleOne> should of just stuck with 10.10 :/
[19:24] <gnomefreak> that is pinging google.com
[19:24] <trijntje> gnomefreak, http://speedtest.net/
[19:25] <yofel> 21seconds o.O? that's ~40ms here
[19:25] <gnomefreak> i guess it would have to open the page to test it
[19:26] <alex_mayorga> can somebody help me with bug 727365?
[19:26] <gnomefreak> ill let you know when it loads. but nothing not even a letter has loaded yet
[19:26] <trijntje> of you wireless it might be that all your neighbours are on the same radio channel, you could check your modem
[19:26] <trijntje> *if
[19:26] <gnomefreak> not wireless
[19:27] <gnomefreak> i have reset everything and still no change
[19:27] <gnomefreak> still not even a letter or nothing
[19:27] <charlie-tca> gnomefreak: my isp uses http://speedtest.net to tell me my connection is "fast"
[19:28] <gnomefreak> i guess if it loads i can test it, but it isnt looking good on loading
[19:28] <gnomefreak> alex_mayorga: my java isnt crashing
[19:28] <charlie-tca> I download consistently at 156KBS, but they say it is 1.2mbps
[19:30] <yofel> alex_mayorga: mine neither (using minefield)
[19:30] <alex_mayorga> yofel: do you use HOB?
[19:30] <yofel> wth's that?
[19:31] <gnomefreak> still nothing loaded. i have to go cook && eat i guess i will save the site and test it tomorrow. alex_mayorga chomium,minefield,firefox4 none of them showing java crashing. icedtea6-plugin: Installed: 6b21.1~20110320-0ubuntu1
[19:31] <gnomefreak> works fine here.
[19:32] <gnomefreak> ok im out. see you tommorow i hope
[19:32] <gnomefreak> but kind of what to know what HOB is
[19:32] <gnomefreak> still nothing on that page
[19:35] <alex_mayorga> yofel: this thing https://www.hobsoft.com/products/secure_remote_access/JWT_Juniper_SA.jsp the firm I consult for uses it for remote desktop and it triggers bug 727365
[19:36] <shaneo> im having trouble updating anyone else ??
[19:38] <yofel> shaneo: define 'trouble' (no, I'm fine here)
[19:38] <shaneo> E:Encountered a section with no Package: header, E:Problem with MergeList /var/lib/apt/lists/archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_natty_main_i18n_Translation-en, E:The package lists or status file could not be parsed or opened.'
[19:38] <yofel> alex_mayorga: and how do I start that applet?
[19:38] <yofel> shaneo: try to refresh the package cache again
[19:39] <shaneo> i have been all day
[19:39] <alex_mayorga> yofel: http://www.hob.de/webapps/jwt33/www/jwt.htm
[19:39] <alex_mayorga> yofel: but I believe I need to get out first
[19:40] <yofel> alex_mayorga: runs fine for me
[19:41] <alex_mayorga> looks like at work they have a version that's a bit more dated, might be that
[19:41] <alex_mayorga> yofel: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=642117
[19:43] <yofel> shaneo: what happens if you delete the file?
[19:44] <shaneo> idk where is it ??
[19:44] <yofel> alex_mayorga: no idea, maybe talk to the others in -mozillateam
[19:44] <yofel> shaneo: it says so in the error: /var/lib/apt/lists/archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_natty_main_i18n_Translation-en
[19:44] <shaneo> lol sorry
[19:44] <alex_mayorga> yofel: would try
[19:46] <shaneo> what is the command u remove a single file in terminal
[19:47] <shaneo> n/
[19:47] <shaneo> m
[19:47] <yofel> shaneo: sudo rm /var/lib/apt/lists/archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_natty_main_i18n_Translation-en
[19:48] <shaneo> everything is running fine now thanks
[19:48] <shaneo> i didnt even think of removing the file
[19:49] <shaneo> wow still a lot of fails but not getting the error i was receiving before
[19:50] <shaneo> E: Encountered a section with no Package: header
[19:50] <shaneo> E: Problem with MergeList /var/lib/apt/lists/archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_natty_main_i18n_Translation-en%5fUS
[19:50] <shaneo> E: The package lists or status file could not be parsed or opened.
[19:50] <yofel> ...
[19:50] <yofel> sudo rm /var/lib/apt/lists/*
[19:50] <yofel> that will remove all of the package list files
[19:50] <shaneo> also the partials ??
[19:51] <yofel> hm, no, they're in a subfolder
[19:51] <shaneo> should i remove them though
[19:52] <yofel> if you get errors yes, otherwise I would only delete the others first
[19:52] <shaneo> ok
[19:52] <shaneo> yofel: thank you
[19:59] <shaneo> wow 66 updates yesterday and 111 today gotta love beta's lol
[20:29] <smallfoot-> alpha 1, alpha 2, alpha 3 sucked, but now that im using alpha 3 (almost beta1) then its great
[20:30] <smallfoot-> 10.04 is pretty nice if you use GNOME (unity sucks)
[20:30] <smallfoot-> 11.04 i mean
[20:30] <smallfoot-> things work pretty well
[20:30] <smallfoot-> some small bugs here and there, but seem to works pretty ok
[20:32] <gordonjcp> smallfoot-: it's kind of cool, but I can't seem to turn off the drop-shadows on the active window
[20:32] <Gulfstream> is there a Ubuntu Free Culture Showcase in Natty?
[20:32] <gordonjcp> smallfoot-: which entirely stops me using it
[20:32] <elias> is there a way to get the 10.10 <for purchase> items in the 11.04 software center?
[20:36] <Daekdroom> elias, they'll be available once 11.04 is released
[20:37] <elias> was just wondering if i could change some config setting to try them now
[20:44] <skyjumper> anyone with a thinkpad experiencing touchpad lag / inability to adjust anything in gpointing-device-settings?
[20:46] <penguin42> anyone else having problems running 'perf' - libbfd-2.21.0-system seems to have a naming problem
[20:48] <yofel> penguin42: got the exact command I should test?
[20:49] <penguin42> yofel: Try just perf by itself
[20:49] <yofel> gave me the usage instructions
[20:49] <penguin42> hmm
[20:49] <penguin42> yofel: What kernel version exactly are you running?
[20:50] <yofel> 2.6.38-7-generic
[20:51] <penguin42> yofel: Ah, thanks - I had an old linux-tools package
[20:58] <elias> Daekdroom: managed to install my purchases by manually adding them to the apt sources :)
[21:15]  * BUGabundo is this close on giving up on Ubuntu :(
[21:15] <Gulfstream> BUGabundo: why?
[21:15] <BUGabundo> audio broken .... again
[21:16] <Daekdroom> Don't worry. Pulseaudio went on broken for like 2 whole releases in here. Unfortunately I had no knowledge of Launchpad...
[21:17] <Daekdroom> I mean, it will - eventually - fix itself :P
[21:17] <gordonjcp> pulseaudio is pretty unpleasant
[21:19] <smallfoot-> GNOME 2.32 supports color management and ICC profiles, but ubuntu does not install the packages by default
[21:19] <smallfoot-> yeah, sometimes my Spotify stops playing music
[21:25] <smallfoot-> what happend to xulrunner in natty?
[21:29] <smallfoot-> why isnt openoffice.org-core marked as "supported" ?
[21:30] <smallfoot-> oh its just a transiational package that can be removed
[21:33] <DarthFrog> Hi folks.  I'm trying to install VMWare Workstation on Natty.  But the building of the kernel modules fails and, as I'm not a programmer, I don't know how to get around it.  The output is at http://paste.ubuntu.com/587030/   Is this easy to get around?  Should I file a bug report?
[21:40] <trism> DarthFrog: http://communities.vmware.com/thread/304307 this thread gives the impression that the vmware team has resolved the issue, but have to wait until the next version comes out
[21:40] <DarthFrog> trism: Thank you very much.
[21:41] <gordonjcp> this is a slightly more technical crowd so I'll ask here although it's a more generic Ubuntu question
[21:42] <gordonjcp> Arch Linux has AUR, the Arch User Repository, for user-contributed packages - what's the Ubuntu equivalent, if any?
[21:42] <arand> gordonjcp: PPAs
[21:43] <gordonjcp> arand: ty
[21:43] <gordonjcp> will investigate
[21:44] <arand> gordonjcp: But I'm guessing that more packages make it into universe that into the "core" of AL...
[21:44] <gordonjcp> arand: this is for a fairly "niche" package anyway, I don't expect it to have a lot of users
[21:45] <gordonjcp> are PPAs release-specific?
[21:45] <arand> Yes.
[21:45] <gordonjcp> that is, do I need one for 10.04, 10.10, 11.04 and so on?
[21:46] <arand> many times they can be installed regardless, if there are specific dependencies, not.
[21:46] <gordonjcp> okay
[21:46] <gordonjcp> and what's the best way of testing in all the various releases?
[21:47] <gordonjcp> just install a machine with half a dozen different versions of Ubuntu?
[21:47] <arand> virtual machines, chroot magic, mayhaps.
[21:48] <arand> But, what is the applications and wht is your system and what is your final goal?
[21:49] <BUGabundo> frak
[21:49] <BUGabundo> its flash that is breaking Pulse Audio
[21:49] <BUGabundo> time to upgrade PA to trunk
[21:49] <BUGabundo> and alsa too
[21:52] <kklimonda> BUGabundo: sounds like fun :)
[21:52] <BUGabundo> NO IT DOESN'T
[21:52] <BUGabundo> it doesn't *sound* like anything
[21:52] <BUGabundo> cause its NOT working
[21:53] <kklimonda> :D
[21:53] <mhall119> I hear ya
[21:53] <kklimonda> BUGabundo: I hear ya ;)
[21:53] <kklimonda> damn
[21:53] <mhall119> ;P
[21:53]  * BUGabundo adds extra peeps to /ignore
[21:53] <mhall119> aw
[21:54] <BUGabundo> I have xedgers version
[21:54]  * BUGabundo hides
[21:57] <gordonjcp> I really dislike pulseaudio
[21:58] <penguin42> it's worked for me for the last 3 or 4 releases
[21:58] <gordonjcp> arand: https://github.com/gordonjcp/lysdr/wiki
[21:59] <gordonjcp> arand: system is a P4-3GHz that doesn't really do virtualisation, and the idea is that it should be a simple matter to install lysdr, hook up your SDR board, and expect it to work
[21:59] <BUGabundo> humm no ppa for audio https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-audio-dev/+archive/ppa
[22:02] <genii-around> BUGabundo: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio maybe
[22:02] <arand> gordonjcp: Ah, right, you want your stuff in ubuntu (I though you were looking for an ubuntu version of something). Right, you can simply upload several versions to the PPA which will be built using the avaiable dependencies in the deifferent versions of ubuntu, if you are lucky that will be enough to make it run on all target releases.
[22:02] <BUGabundo> you forget that I try to be an end user
[22:02] <BUGabundo> no compiling from source
[22:03] <genii-around> Hehe
[22:03] <arand> gordonjcp: For long-term though, best way to get something into ubuntu, is getting it into debian.
[22:04] <gordonjcp> arand: yeah
[22:04] <gordonjcp> arand: the deps aren't critical
[22:04] <gordonjcp> arand: Debian doesn't appear to ship with a new enough version of jack though
[22:06] <arand> gordonjcp: Not even sid?
[22:06] <gordonjcp> arand: didn't try sid, I couldn't get it to work
[22:07] <arand> gordonjcp: http://packages.qa.debian.org/j/jack-tools.html
[22:07] <gordonjcp> arand: most of my users are either using Ubuntu or Arch
[22:09] <penguin42> gordonjcp: ppa's are pretty easy, although you woul dhave to keep it updated through releases; what is it that the standard stuff in ubuntu doesn't do?
[22:09] <arand> gordonjcp: Ehm, jack is exactly the same version in ubuntu as in debian stable...
[22:09] <gordonjcp> penguin42: did you look at the link I posted?
[22:10] <gordonjcp> arand: oh, okay, hmm
[22:10] <gordonjcp> penguin42: this simply does not exist in Ubuntu
[22:10] <penguin42> the lysdr wiki?
[22:10] <gordonjcp> yeah
[22:10] <gordonjcp> it's not packaged for Ubuntu
[22:10]  * penguin42 reads
[22:11] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Does it actually need jackd or will pulse's jack compatibility work?
[22:12] <gordonjcp> penguin42: it's also unlikely to have the mass appeal to get into the mainstream package repository
[22:12] <gordonjcp> penguin42: no idea
[22:12] <penguin42> gordonjcp: There is plenty of obscure stuff in 'universe' - lots of ham radio stuff and sdr stuff
[22:12] <gordonjcp> penguin42: if you can use pulse to route audio between applications, and if it serves up a known amount of samples every time, I don't see why not
[22:13] <penguin42> gordonjcp: So I don't know enough about audio routing; I know there is a pulseaudio-module-jack  'jackd modules for PulseAudio sound server'
[22:14] <penguin42> hmm no, that s the other way around
[22:14] <penguin42> that package lets pa connect to jackd
[22:14] <gordonjcp> penguin42: yeah, I'm currently downloading 10.04 because most of my users seem to be on that
[22:14] <gordonjcp> but it's already 22:15 and I've got an early start tomorrow
[22:15] <gordonjcp> and my eyes are still sore from trying Unity earlier
[22:15] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Basing on jack rather than pa is what's making it hard
[22:15] <gordonjcp> penguin42: well, PA doesn't do what I want
[22:15] <DarthFrog> trism:  There was enough info in that URL you gave me that I was able to get VMWare Workstation running.  Thanks again.
[22:15] <trism> DarthFrog: excellent
[22:16] <penguin42> gordonjcp: and you're saying it needs really recent jack as well?
[22:16] <gordonjcp> well, 0.118 ideally
[22:17] <gordonjcp> it can be made to work with 0.116 but that's unbelievably old
[22:19] <penguin42> gordonjcp: You can file a bug asking for it to be updated, but it'll take at least a revision to happen
[22:19] <gordonjcp> penguin42: the jack in Ubuntu is new enough
[22:19] <gordonjcp> apparently the one in Debian stable is now new enough too
[22:20] <arand> gordonjcp: Installing libjack-jackd2-dev solves the dependency on debian stable it seems...
[22:20] <gordonjcp> I just can't stand pulseaudio...
[22:21] <arand> gordonjcp: Like I said, jack in ubuntu and debian stable is the exact same version.
[22:24] <gordonjcp> arand: yup
[22:28] <arand> gordonjcp: Well, it compiles and runs here on debian stable at least, not sure if it is working with all componets though, I need to read what it's actually supposed to do =)
[22:29] <gordonjcp> arand: read through the wiki page
[22:29] <gordonjcp> arand: although that does rather assume you know what a software-defined radio is
[22:29] <gordonjcp> arand: you know shortwave radio, right?  Well, this does it with a very simple bit of hardware, a soundcard, and a fastish PC
[22:30] <penguin42> gordonjcp: does it do a pair of phases, one into each stereo channel?
[22:31] <gordonjcp> penguin42: yes
[22:31] <gordonjcp> penguin42: generate a local oscillator at four times the centre frequency of the bit you want to listen to, divide by four with a Johnson counter, and you've got two clocks 90 degrees apart
[22:31] <gordonjcp> bang that through a mixer with your incoming RF and you've got complex samples
[22:32] <penguin42> don't you need aliasing filters and stuff?
[22:32] <gordonjcp> nope
[22:33] <gordonjcp> you apply a bandpass filter to the aerial to take out seriously out-of-band stuff, and then your captured signal is anti-aliasing filtered by the sound card
[22:33] <gordonjcp> so if you ride a bike
[22:33] <gordonjcp> plot the height of the tyre valve above the wheel spindle against time
[22:34] <arand> gordonjcp: Well, it works fine if I do the mplayer test example, I have no clue about radio stuff...
[22:34] <gordonjcp> or, distance travelled really
[22:34] <gordonjcp> you get a sine wave
[22:34] <gordonjcp> arand: nice
[22:34] <gordonjcp> okay so we have a complex sample, that is where the sample comprises a real and an imaginary value
[22:35] <gordonjcp> the sample is the end of a vector that rotates, so a complex sine wave is like the tyre valve seen from the spindle of your bike wheel
[22:35] <gordonjcp> spin the wheel faster for a higher frequency
[22:35] <genii-around> gordonjcp: If you plot the tire valve , you don't get a sine wave but something that looks more like the top of two sine waves
[22:36] <gordonjcp> genii-around: how do you get that?
[22:37] <gordonjcp> genii-around: for half a revolution of the wheel, the valve is below the centre...
[22:39] <gordonjcp> arand: incidentally if you grabbed sdr1.flac, there's a bonus prize for spotting the Windows error "choonk" sound
[22:40] <arand> gordonjcp: Heh, that's take ages of looking :)
[22:40] <gordonjcp> arand: aha
[22:40] <gordonjcp> does it?
[22:40] <gordonjcp> how else might you do it?
[22:41] <Jaymac> quick question on dash - is it possible to resize the font?
[22:41] <Jaymac> when i click the ubuntu logo and get the main dash window, the font and icons are huge
[22:42] <Jaymac> the Files & Folders and Applications windows are fine
[22:43] <gordonjcp> "system problem detected, do you want to report the problem?"
[22:43] <gordonjcp> no, of course I don't!
[22:43] <Jaymac> and if FF isn't my default browser, can I change the Browse the Web program to something else?
[22:43] <gordonjcp> what the hell *is* the problem?
[22:43] <Jaymac> my default web browser isn't FF
[22:43] <gordonjcp> don't just tell me there's a problem, tell me what it is, what the hell do you think this is?  Mac System 6?
[22:44] <gordonjcp> stupid design decisions ftl
[22:44] <Jaymac> that doesn't sound like a design problem, more a useability problem
[22:44] <Jaymac> usability*
[22:45] <MTeck> I just installed the comand line system of natty with the daily image onto a mac mini using the amd64+mac.iso image. It went through the install just great but then when it's booting up it gets through bios, loads up grub, then shortly after grub is done and it starts loading linux, the screen stops displaying anything and the light on the monitor blinks like there's no signal being sent to it.
[22:45] <gordonjcp> and usablility is a function of design...
[22:45] <MTeck> Any thoughts what might be wrong here?
[22:45] <penguin42> MTeck: What hardware?
[22:46] <MTeck> penguin42: mac mini
[22:46] <MTeck> penguin42: so far, that's all i know about this thing
[22:46] <Jaymac> gordonjcp, i don't know what your issue is but it sounds more like the error message text needs improved rather than anything being redesigned
[22:46] <penguin42> MTeck: Have you tried the rescue mode?
[22:47] <penguin42> MTeck: On the grub menu?
[22:48] <MTeck> penguin42: hmm..... nope
[22:48] <MTeck> penguin42: works perfect there
[22:48] <penguin42> what works perfect there?
[22:48] <coz_> hey all
[22:50] <MTeck> penguin42: must be the vt.handoff=7 in the menu that's breaking it.......
[22:51] <MTeck> thanks :D
[22:52] <MTeck> penguin42: heh... also also seem to have misplaced my password :S
[22:52] <penguin42> nothing that can't easily be fixed
[22:52] <MTeck> I don't wanna reinstall though..... and ecrypt on my home dir
[22:52]  * MTeck (now) lazy.....
[22:53] <gordonjcp> argh, why does Ubuntu come as a .iso?
[22:53] <MTeck> gordonjcp: because iso is de facto; personally I think it should also come as a .dd
[22:53] <gordonjcp> MTeck: yes
[22:54] <penguin42> unetbootin makes nice thumb boots from the isos
[22:54] <gordonjcp> MTeck: what's .iso even for these days?
[22:54] <gordonjcp> penguin42: doesn't work for me at all
[22:54] <MTeck> I have plenty of times where I need an iso
[22:55] <meganerdca> The iso It does not work on my new sandy bridge PC as a burnt disk, seems to work fine after unetbootin makes a USB thumb drive
[22:55] <MTeck> So where is this vt.handoff being tacked on?
[22:55] <meganerdca> most of the time having the ISO kicking around has been a good thing
[22:56] <penguin42> meganerdca: What controller is the DVD drive plugged into?
[22:56]  * MTeck hates new grub
[22:56] <gordonjcp> I've used floppy drives more recently than CDs
[22:56] <meganerdca> penguin42: the normal one, nothing is plugged into the new 6 Gbit sata
[22:57] <meganerdca> I also tried a USB DVD drive and a PATA DVD
[22:57] <meganerdca> Checked the md5s of the iso and probably burned 20 disks.  Its been real fun
[22:58] <meganerdca> Seems to work fine on the machine this will eventually replace (an old AMD 4400+ dual core)
[22:58] <gordonjcp> DVD is obsolete
[22:58] <meganerdca> sure, this system won't have one once installed
[22:58] <gordonjcp> why do we even bother to support this legacy cruft?
[22:58] <meganerdca> My older Core i7 does not have an optical drive either
[22:58] <MTeck> penguin42: looks like at some point I have a bug to report....
[22:58] <meganerdca> gordonjcp: becuase it is still widely used
[22:59] <penguin42> MTeck: Yeh it should boot and display video
[22:59] <meganerdca> gordonjcp: it also seems to be how operating systems are still installed/reinstalled
[23:00] <MTeck> crap... my company has a firewall that is going to prevent me from easily downloading packages...
[23:00] <MTeck> downloading anything....
[23:01] <meganerdca> thats why I have a myfi (well a Wind branded equivalent
[23:01] <MTeck> It needs 1) authentication and 2) for unapproved websites downloads need to be downloaded to a separate server and scanned before clients can grab it (and are provided an internal link for the downloaded file)
[23:02] <JockeTF> Anyone else having problems playing Flac with gstreamer in Natty?
[23:02] <Jaymac> in totem? banshee?
[23:02] <JockeTF> I'm getting a bit of stutter and crackling.
[23:02] <JockeTF> Both.
[23:03] <JockeTF> gst-launch as well.
[23:03] <Jaymac> flac working fine in banshee
[23:04] <gordonjcp> meganerdca: it's not how they're installed, they're installed off USB drives these days
[23:04] <gordonjcp> meganerdca: I don't think I've owned a machine with an optical drive for nearly ten years
[23:05] <meganerdca> My two main desktops do not have optical drives, so you are sort of preaching to the choir
[23:05] <gordonjcp> man, I can't get 10.04 onto anything bootable at all
[23:06] <JockeTF> Hmm, seems to happen only when using PulseAudio for output.
[23:06] <matcouto> Is anybody here testing Ubuntu 11.04!? I'm having some wireless problem, the connection is not stable. Any idea of what could it be?
[23:06] <JockeTF> With ALSA only it doesn't crackle. :S
[23:06] <meganerdca> I am trying to test it, my problem is that it is not installing due to bleeding edge hardware
[23:07] <meganerdca> matcouto: check /var/log/daemon.log
[23:07] <meganerdca> matcouto: that is where network-manager puts it's messages
[23:07] <meganerdca> matcouto: it might also help to know what wireless device and driver you are using
[23:09] <matcouto> meganerdca: there's no daemon.log file
[23:13] <meganerdca> matcouto: /var/log/daemon.log
[23:53] <arand> gordonjcp: I couldn't help but poke, using dh7, this rules file seems to work ok: http://paste.debian.net/112367/ It's likely all kinds of bad practice, but it works...
[23:54] <gordonjcp> arand: cool, thanks for that
[23:54] <gordonjcp> it's a good place to start; I was going to start looking at how packaging works in debianish distros
[23:55]  * gordonjcp -> bed


[07:23] <dpm> morning all
[08:36] <RawChid> Good morning
[08:36] <RawChid> I think that disabling templates is also little bit demotivating...
[10:39] <andrejz> hello dpm!
[10:40] <andrejz> i have a question about import queue
[10:53] <andrejz> @dpm: there are hundreds of blocked .pot files in oneiric a lot of them are from live build
[10:53] <andrejz> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+imports?field.filter_extension=pot&field.filter_status=NEEDS_REVIEW&start=75&batch=75
[10:53] <andrejz> probably they all need to be rejected. is there a faster way than a lot of clicking
[11:35] <dpm> andrejz, thanks for the heads up, I've asked on #launchpad if someone can help marking them all as blocked at once, and I'm waiting for the answer
[11:37] <andrejz> dpm, you're welcome. trying my best :)
[12:58] <kelemengabor> TLE: updated langpacks are now in the PPA, it's time to send out the call for testing
[13:01] <kelemengabor> hm, Matthew East wrote to the list:  "I added the translations to version 3.0.0+git20110406ubuntu11 of gnome-user-docs which is currently in natty-proposed. Hopefully these translations will be picked up by the next language packs. " - this didn't seem to happened for my language, altough I uploaded what I had a few weeks ago
[13:02] <TLE> you mean they are in the ppa or in proposed?
[13:05] <kelemengabor> er, PPA only, sorry
[13:12] <TLE> no problem, however I am actually so bogged down with work (finishing my PhD thesis) until september that I need to see if I can find someone to fill in for me
[13:14] <TLE> I'll write an email about it to the list
[13:16] <kelemengabor> I can do that :)
[13:16] <kelemengabor> but then first, ask the packages to be copied over to -proposed
[13:17] <kelemengabor> I mean I'll ask
[13:24] <TLE> yeah, I mean if you don't mind that would be great, but I can also write to the list, ahh but probaly the other guys will help you anyway, I just need to be able to not read Ubuntu emails at all for the next 1.5 month
[13:24] <TLE> about copying them over, I think it is usually pitti who does it, but otherwise talk with dpm
[13:25] <TLE> If you guys need me for something in the mean time send me a personal email
[13:25] <kelemengabor> dpm: is it no showstopper that the intended docs update didn't made it to the updated langpacks?
[13:25] <kelemengabor> TLE: sure, I'll handle it
[13:26] <kelemengabor> dpm: we have 3 languages at 100%
[13:26] <TLE> thanks, I'll owe you icecream ;)
[13:26] <kelemengabor> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/gnome-user-docs/+pots/gnome-user-docs-gnome-help
[13:26] <dpm> TLE, kelemengabor, yeah, copying the PPA to -proposed is just a matter of pinging pitti either on #ubuntu-devel or #ubuntu-desktop
[13:27] <dpm> TLE, thanks for the work so far and good luck with the thesis! :-)
[13:28] <TLE> dpm: thanks and sorry for dropping a bit under the radar for the past few weeks without any notice, I thought I would have time for both, turnes out not to be the case ;)
[13:29] <dpm> TLE, no worries, that's how volunteer work works, we all need to manage our time the best way we can, and you've been helping a lot. As for the "no notice", don't worry, you had told me you'd be busy with your PhD already, so I just assumed that ;)
[13:30] <dpm> kelemengabor, well, if we want the docs to be included, we can delay the date and wait for the next PPA to be generated
[13:30] <dpm> but we'll need to check whether the docs upload has indeed happened or if it's going to happen soon
[13:35] <kelemengabor> dpm: it happened, and it is in -proposed
[13:35] <kelemengabor> $ ls -l /usr/share/gnome/help/gnome-help/hu/
[13:35] <kelemengabor> összesen 840
[13:35] <kelemengabor> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   65 2011-07-13 13:45 a11y-bouncekeys.page -> /usr/share/gnome/help-langpack/gnome-help/hu/a11y-bouncekeys.page
[13:35] <kelemengabor> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   62 2011-07-13 13:45 a11y-braille.page -> /usr/share/gnome/help-langpack/gnome-help/hu/a11y-braille.page
[13:36] <kelemengabor> etc.
[13:41] <kelemengabor> and the bug 774238 is about it
[13:41] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 774238 in gnome-user-docs (Ubuntu Natty) (and 1 other project) "Desktop help is untranslated in 11.04 (affects: 2) (heat: 14)" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/774238
[13:41] <kelemengabor> so, the main goal of this update was to bring in the translations
[13:42] <dpm> kelemengabor, in that case, perhaps it would make sense to wait and make sure the next PPA contains the langpacks. I think, if the current PPA does not contain them and the docs were uploaded in time, it might be because docs can only be shipped in full language packs rather than delta
[13:43] <dpm> so we might need to kick off a full langpack
[13:44] <kelemengabor> given that this was a delta update, I think we found the problem :)
[13:44] <dpm> yeah, I'm just double-checking with pitti
[13:52] <dpm> kelemengabor, yeah, pitti says that docs can only be included in full language packs
[14:10] <dpm> kelemengabor, I could set the translation focus as Oneiric without timeouts in LP, so I've marked your action as DONE on https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-sustainable-translations
[14:11] <kelemengabor> dpm: cool, thanks!
[14:11] <dpm> no worries :)
[15:58] <andrejz> hello dpm, kelemengabor. isn't the meeting supposed to start in a few minutes?
[15:58] <dpm> andrejz, yes
[15:58] <kelemengabor> andrejz: yes
[15:58] <dpm> I was just about to ping you :)
[15:58] <kelemengabor> I already added dpm to my list
[15:59] <andrejz> good, so i haven't missed a time zone :)
[15:59] <kelemengabor> if it was our dpm :)
[15:59] <dpm> yeah, I saw this contact offer from this kelemengabor person, I think I discarded it as spam :P
[15:59] <kelemengabor> andrejz: I think we all live in CET/CEST
[15:59] <andrejz> true
[16:00] <andrejz> dpm, don't you have a nickname david.planella?
[16:00] <dpm> ok, let's roll
[16:00] <dpm> andrejz, yeah, that's my account name
[16:00] <andrejz> so i already have you on my list
[16:01] <dpm> andrejz, can you hear us?
[16:06] <dpm> andrejz, kelemengabor, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/644162/
[16:08] <dpm> andrejz, kelemengabor, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-sustainable-translations
[16:16] <dpm> andrejz, kelemengabor, https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+language-packs
[16:20] <dpm> andrejz, kelemengabor, https://dev.launchpad.net/Translations/LanguagePackSchedule
[16:21] <dpm> andrejz, kelemengabor, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LucidLanguagePackReleaseSchedule
[16:21] <dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/NattyLanguagePackReleaseSchedule
[16:25] <dpm> andrejz, https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+source/live-build/+imports?field.filter_status=NEEDS_REVIEW&field.filter_extension=pot
[16:25] <dpm> kelemengabor, ^^
[16:31] <dpm> kelemengabor, andrejz, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-launchpad-translations-upstream-imports-presentation-and-plans
[16:31] <dpm> kelemengabor, andrejz https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Projects/LaunchpadUpstreamImports
[16:47] <dpm> kelemengabor, andrejz http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/644162/
[16:54] <kelemengabor> bug 690248
[16:54] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 690248 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu Maverick) (and 2 other projects) "In Maverick 'About Ubuntu' displays Natty info (affects: 64) (dups: 23) (heat: 258)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/690248
[16:54] <kelemengabor> bug 451673
[16:54] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 451673 in yelp (Ubuntu) (and 2 other projects) "Untranslated Yelp main page (Ubuntu Help Center) (affects: 8) (dups: 1) (heat: 45)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/451673
[17:08] <dpm> kelemengabor, pedro on #ubuntu-devel
[17:16] <dpm> andrejz, kelemengabor: bug 788685
[17:16] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 788685 in pkgbinarymangler (Ubuntu) (and 3 other projects) "Enable translating selected Ubuntu universe packages in Launchpad (affects: 1) (heat: 12)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788685
[17:17] <kelemengabor> andrejz: http://l10n.compiz.org/pootle/hu/compizfusion/ - is this not the place to translate ccsm?
[17:17] <kelemengabor> at least for hu, it looks like
[17:20] <andrejz> @kelemengabor: yes but it's very outdated
[17:32] <andrejz> dpm, can you send me the contacts for software center related email
[17:33] <dpm> andrejz, sure, just a sec
[17:35] <dpm> andrejz, https://launchpad.net/~mvo (main developer) https://launchpad.net/~mpt (designer) - they are sometimes a bit busy and might take time to respond, but they do reply with detailed info to any question, so you'll be in good hands :)
[17:35] <andrejz> thanks, dpm
[17:37] <dpm> yw :)
[17:37] <dpm> ok, time to call it a day, see you all tomorrow!
[17:38] <andrejz> see you


[00:02] <crimsun> fta: pa side should be better now; i'll send the source up to my ppa
[00:02] <crimsun> fta: i'm inspecting the alsa-{lib,plugins} side tonight
[01:44] <crimsun> fta: please see if pulseaudio_0.9.13-2ubuntu5~ppa1 in my jaunty ppa help
[01:44] <crimsun> helps*
[01:45] <crimsun> fta: i don't expect things to be fully resolved, but it should be better
[10:21] <asac> hmmm so we should document the plugin finder service/switcher stuff
[11:17] <asac> doomed
[11:28] <asac> http://code.google.com/p/google-gadgets-for-linux/source/browse/trunk/extensions/smjs_script_runtime/gen_libmozjs_glue.sh
[11:28] <asac> we should integrate that in the -dev package i think
[11:32] <asac> seems like the iceape update was the sec update with the most CVEs ever ;)
[12:15] <asac> [reed]: so monitoring the tinderbox for two days now i came to the conclusion that its always burning when i want to push :(
[14:07] <asac> hmm ... have binary firefox linux releases been tar.gz
[14:07] <asac> always?
[14:07] <asac> seems so
[18:34] <asac> jcastro: re gwibber ... how do you forward bugs?
[18:34] <asac> jcastro: for me the long to short url feature is more or less essential
[18:35] <jcastro> asac: it's on lp just just file it under gwibber
[18:35] <asac> jcastro: however, that only works if the text you are typing + the long url is shorter than 140 ... e.g. type 70, past url with 60
[18:35] <jcastro> asac: long to short is in preferences
[18:35] <asac> doesnt work ... even though shortening would work
[18:35] <asac> oh ... thought it was enabled
[18:35] <asac> let me check
[18:36] <jcastro> it has a small bug where when you paste and it shortens but after the cursor and it doesn't scroll but that one is known
[18:36] <BUGabundo> good evening asac fta and the rest of the ppl in here!
[18:36] <asac> jcastro: all fine. thanks. should definitly be default
[18:36] <jcastro> I'll let him know
[18:36] <asac> or maybe make that "auto shorten if text would exceed"
[18:37] <jcastro> he just wants to get the account information into gnome keyring and he will release a tarball
[18:37] <asac> could be quite funky: like the url is always full when it fits ... and gets auto shortened when you type and hit the 140 bound
[18:37] <jcastro> he's aware of the jaunty deadlines
[18:37] <BUGabundo> hey asac yesterday I was getting that annoing wifi timeout on an unprotected network! :(
[18:37] <BUGabundo> thought it was fixed!
[18:37] <asac> cool. lets see how much candy he can still provide
[18:37] <asac> default would be good quick solution though
[18:37] <asac> hi BUGabundo
[18:37] <BUGabundo> I know .. OT
[18:38] <asac> BUGabundo: are you running NM 0.7 final packages from PPA?
[18:38] <BUGabundo> nope
[18:38] <BUGabundo> I think I have the archive version
[18:38] <BUGabundo> let me check
[18:38] <asac> so the intrepid/jaunty default?
[18:38] <asac> please check
[18:38] <asac> otherwise try those
[18:39] <BUGabundo> network-manager:
[18:39] <BUGabundo>   Installed: 0.7~~svn20081018t105859-0ubuntu2
[18:39] <BUGabundo>   Candidate: 0.7~~svn20081018t105859-0ubuntu2
[18:39] <BUGabundo>   Version table:
[18:39] <BUGabundo>  *** 0.7~~svn20081018t105859-0ubuntu2 0
[18:39] <BUGabundo>         500 ftp://darkstar.ist.utl.pt jaunty/main Packages
[18:39] <BUGabundo>         500 ftp://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/main Packages
[18:39] <BUGabundo>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
[18:39] <asac> BUGabundo: ok try ppa version (~network-manager)
[18:41] <BUGabundo> will do next time I get a place where I can test it again...
[18:41] <BUGabundo> where I'm right now (WPA2 entreprise) current driver works great... I better not mess with it!
[18:42] <BUGabundo> but I guess I can download a deb from the PPA to install in case I have no wifi then.... lol
[19:12] <BUGabundo> asac: what is the apt-get parameter to just download the PPA NM? I don't to install it right now!
[19:12] <BUGabundo> found it --download-only
[19:16] <BUGabundo> humm NM is being kept back!
[19:16] <BUGabundo> maybe some dep missing!
[19:35] <[reed]> asac: hah, then ping me :)
[19:35] <[reed]> asac: and I can push for you
[20:21] <wikz> fta: Hi, is it enough if I have a project.conf file in debian/mozclient ? here is my conf file: http://paste.ubuntu.com/102332/ and my rules file: http://paste.ubuntu.com/102334/
[20:22] <wikz> when I do a get-orig-source, it says make: *** No rule to make target `.../spicebird-0.7/debian/spicebird.conf'.  Stop.
[20:35] <wikz> asac: ^^
[22:31] <asac> wikz: you probably need to ship debian/spicebird.conf
[22:33] <fta> hi
[22:33] <asac> he
[22:33] <asac> y
[22:34] <fta> wikz, yes, the .conf is enough, the .mk was useful when everything with hosted inside m-d, now, it could be inside debian/rules too
[22:34] <fta> -with+was
[22:34] <asac> fta: maybe its easier (template wise) to put that in an isolated debian/ file?
[22:35]  * fta should not type after n pints of guiness
[22:36] <fta> wikz, do you have MOZCLIENT_PROJECTDIR := $(CURDIR)/debian/mozclient ??
[22:37] <fta> as i mentioned in the README, you need to isolate the .conf as $(MOZCLIENT_PROJECTDIR)/patches would be considered by mozclient, and then, if it's not isolated, there's a confusion with debian/patches
[22:39] <fta> i recommend MOZCLIENT_PROJECTDIR := $(CURDIR)/debian/mozclient. It could be anything but $(CURDIR)/debian (empty means $(CURDIR)/debian)
[22:40] <asac> fta: what would mozclient do with those patches? (if not isolated)? apply after checkout?
[22:42] <fta> see ff3.0, $(MOZCLIENT_PROJECTDIR)/patches is used by quilt to patch mozilla/client.mk for ex
[22:43] <asac> fta: is there a special stae where this is applied?
[22:43] <asac> e.g. first checkout mozilla/client.mk
[22:43] <asac> then apply patches
[22:43] <asac> then the rest?
[22:45] <fta> so for, it's only implemented for cvs, and when MOZCLIENT_WANTPATCH is set
[22:45] <fta> far
[22:45] <asac> k
[22:46] <fta> it's $obj->get_client()
[22:47] <fta> all other VCS have that method but it's not doing anything
[22:50] <asac> i would prefer if we would have clearly defined stages where patches get applied
[22:50] <asac> of course not urgent ;)
[22:51] <fta> use case?
[22:51] <asac> like MOZCLIENT_CHECKOUT_PHASES=getmozclient,getfulltree,wipenobinonly
[22:51] <fta> imho, it's not useful neither before, not afterward
[22:51] <asac> MOZCLIENT_CHECKOUT_PHASE_getmozclient = some command
[22:52] <asac> MOZCLIENT_CHECKOUT_PHASE_getmozclient_POSTPATCHES = PATH/TO/PATCHES
[22:52] <asac> fta: after first stage its useful for client.mk (ffox)
[22:52] <asac> after its definitly useful
[22:52] <asac> e.g. i could produce patched origs
[22:53] <fta> imho patched orig is not right, it's no longer orig, such patches should be in the packaging
[22:59] <asac> depends
[22:59] <asac> if you want to maintain a derivitive and so on it might make sense
[23:00] <fta> please file a wish bug, so i don't forget
[23:15] <Sekhemty> hi to everyone!