[09:11] <tonyyarusso> @schedule montreal
[09:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 10 Oct 16:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 08:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:11] <Fujitsu> @schedule Melbourne
[09:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Melbourne: 11 Oct 06:00: Technical Board | 12 Oct 06:00: Edubuntu | 13 Oct 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 22:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 20 Oct 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:23] <GNAM> @schedule ROME
[09:23] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 10 Oct 22:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 14:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 14:00: Edubuntu | 20 Oct 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:24] <Burgundavia> @schedule boston
[09:24] <Burgundavia> @schedule new york
[09:24] <Burgundavia> @schedule americas/boston
[09:24] <Burgundavia> @schedule US/boston
[09:24] <shawarma> *g*
[09:24] <Burgundavia> @schedule US/new york
[09:24] <GNAM> .
[09:24] <Burgundavia> grumble
[09:24] <GNAM> @schedule america/boston
[09:24] <GNAM> @schedule america/new york
[09:24] <GNAM> .
[09:24] <GNAM> .
[09:24] <Burgundavia> ah
[09:25] <neuralis> @schedule new_york
[09:25] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 10 Oct 16:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 08:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:25] <GNAM> usausas
[09:25] <Burgundavia> just saw that
[09:25] <neuralis> i win. ;)
[09:25] <Burgundavia> @schedule vancouver
[09:25] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Vancouver: 10 Oct 13:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 13:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 05:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 05:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:25] <Burgundavia> neuralis: you do
[09:26] <tonyyarusso> You say @schedule once.......
[09:26] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: it is 3am here. I don't want to have to figure out timezones
[09:26] <Burgundavia> that is why computers do well
[09:27] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Yeah, I'm just amused how everyone does it at once.
[09:36] <Fujitsu> tonyyarusso, waiting for people to break the ice!
[09:36] <tonyyarusso> It's like a tray of cookies at a church dinner.  Nobody wants to take the first one.
[09:37] <Fujitsu> Exactly.
[08:14] <zul> @schedule montreal
[08:14] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 10 Oct 16:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 08:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[08:42] <sivang> @schedule Israel
[08:42] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Israel: 10 Oct 22:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 14:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 14:00: Edubuntu | 20 Oct 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[08:46] <tepsipakki> @schedule finland
[08:46] <tepsipakki> bah
[08:46] <tepsipakki> @schedule helsinki
[08:46] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Helsinki: 10 Oct 23:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 23:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 15:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 15:00: Edubuntu | 20 Oct 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:12] <lfittl> @schedule vienna
[09:12] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vienna: 10 Oct 22:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 14:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 14:00: Edubuntu | 20 Oct 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:12] <jdong> cool
[09:12] <jdong> @schedule detroit
[09:12] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Detroit: 10 Oct 16:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 08:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:13] <jdong> 45 minutes... :)
[09:24] <Toadstool> @schedule Los_angeles
[09:24] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: 10 Oct 13:00: Technical Board | 11 Oct 13:00: Edubuntu | 12 Oct 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Oct 05:00: Community Council | 18 Oct 05:00: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[09:53] <pitti> hi
[09:54] <jdong> hi pitti
[09:55] <pitti> hi jdong
[09:55] <zul> hi pitti
[09:57] <mdz> morning
[09:58] <jdong> afternoon, mdz :)
[09:59] <smurf> mdz, jdong: -EWRONGTIMEZONE
[09:59] <ajmitch> morning
[10:00] <jdong> AFTERNOON
[10:00] <smurf> night ;-)
[10:00] <mdz> welcome all
[10:00] <tepsipakki> good evening <yaawwwn> ;)
[10:00] <mdz> kristog proposed a discussion item for the agenda
[10:00] <Keybuk> mdz: are you going to drive, or shall I?
[10:00] <mdz> but there doesn't seem to be a kristog present
[10:00] <mdz> Keybuk: I've got it
[10:01] <mdz> does anyone know Riccardo Setti  / kristog?
[10:01] <Keybuk> he's on #ubuntu-devel
[10:01] <kristog> hello
[10:01] <mdz> kristog: you're up
[10:01] <mdz> tell us what you want to discuss
[10:02] <kristog> mdz, * i wanted ask if people.ubuntu.com could provide web space for all UbuntuMembers
[10:02] <kristog> as people.debian.org/~developer do
[10:02] <mdz> kristog: what would this space be used for?
[10:02] <kristog> i , but i guess other people, could need space for put theyr work
[10:03] <mdz> can you give some examples?
[10:03] <kristog> mdz, ubuntu work, png, doc, debs
[10:03] <sivang> hi all
[10:03] <kristog> mdz, take a look on people.debian.org/~giskard
[10:03] <jdong> mdz: the most common application I can think of would be a personal APT repo
[10:03] <kristog> mdz, i need to put a .debdiff file
[10:03] <mdz> kristog: is that your directory?
[10:03] <kristog> mdz yes
[10:03] <kristog> jdong, no, i don't think so
[10:03] <Keybuk> jdong: personal APT archives are something that Launchpad intends to provide
[10:03] <ogra> kristog, well, if you keep *everything in a bzr branch you caqn just use launchpad ;)
[10:04] <jdong> kristog: most of the other things I can think of can be attached to malone
[10:04] <mdz> jdong: publishing something on people.ubuntu.com lends a certain officiality to it; I'm not sure that should apply to all members when it comes to producing packages
[10:04] <jdong> or hosted as bzr branches on LP
[10:04] <jdong> mdz: yeah, certainly point taken. I'm not voicing an opinion one way or another yet :)
[10:04] <mdz> kristog: what is the .debdiff for?
[10:05] <kristog> jdong, yes, but i cannot say to  people that they have to use bzr for *download*  a .deb
[10:05] <mdz> kristog: if it's a patch for a package in Ubuntu, it would be better to put it in Launchpad
[10:05] <kristog> mdz, yes .debdiff was an example.
[10:05] <jdong> kristog: malone is useful for that
[10:05] <kristog> but i cannot attach .deb
[10:05] <jdong> kristog: why not?
[10:05] <Keybuk> mdz: otoh, it does seem ... odd that people.u.c is limited to canonical staff; and not at least core-dev members, no?
[10:05] <mjg59> Sorry, hi
[10:05] <raphink> hi
[10:05] <pitti> hi mjg59
[10:05] <jdong> kristog: I attach debs for backports quite often
[10:05] <kristog> hello mjg59
[10:06] <mdz> Keybuk: it's liimted to a pretty arbitrary and inconsistent group of people afaik
[10:06] <sivang> Keybuk++
[10:06] <Keybuk> e.g. there is no people.u.c/~mjg59
[10:06] <mdz> Keybuk: and I'm not arguing that, only the specific proposal on the table atm
[10:06] <jdong> I'd personally lean core-dev and possibly MOTU also
[10:06] <Keybuk> of course, elmo knows where I live ...
[10:06] <sivang> hehe
[10:07] <sivang> Keybuk: should have thought about this before :-)
[10:07] <kristog> mdz, i use my ~ for this kind of stuff, but people should use it for other things (related to ubuntu)
[10:07] <Keybuk> I'm not sure that this is something the TB can make a decision on?
[10:08] <mdz> Keybuk: not directly, but we should have an opinion
[10:08] <Keybuk> or, at least, an effectual decision
[10:08] <kristog> Keybuk,  i don't know sorry if this is not the right place :(
[10:08] <mjg59> I think there are technical arguments in favour of providing a resouce with reasonable bandwidth for developers to distribute files from
[10:08] <Keybuk> we give @ubuntu.com e-mail to every member
[10:08] <Keybuk> so it would fit that they also got people.uc/~ as well
[10:09] <mdz> I think that it is entirely appropriate for the project to have a place for contributors to place content, but there is some question in my mind about the particulars
[10:09] <Keybuk> the "official distribution" moniker would equally apply if they sent it from that e-mail address, no?
[10:09] <jdong> what are the use cases for a ~username that malone/launchpad wouldn't be appropriate?
[10:09] <jdong> other than the PPA's
[10:09] <Keybuk> jdong: launchpad lacks download areas  (I've complained about this from a strictly "LP as an SF replacement" POV)
[10:09] <mjg59> Well, in the launchpad case there's the basic problem that it doesn't have the functionality and someone would need to write it
[10:10] <jdong> mmm, ok, so for _releasing_ arbitrary files
[10:10] <mjg59> Whereas the ~ space is just a simple matter of configuration
[10:10] <Keybuk> not really
[10:10] <Keybuk> it needs a box allocated for it
[10:10] <Keybuk> accounts copied from launchpad
[10:10] <Keybuk> access control somehow arranged (libpam_lp?)
[10:10] <mjg59> Well, that's still likely to be less work than launchpad integration
[10:10] <Keybuk> ssh logins or just sftp?
[10:10] <mdz> mjg59: there's a bit more to it than that; there are substantive issues about authentication, access control, quotas, appropriate content, etc. which would need to be included
[10:11] <mjg59> But yeah, admittedly there are various issues
[10:11] <ogra> but as i understood sabdfl in th epast it shall also provide something to have your own repo with packasges built from your bzr branches
[10:11] <mdz> this should be considered entirely separate from the current rookery setup for canonical, I expect it would be an entirely new service
[10:11] <jdong> a home folder sounds like a temporary workaround for desired launchpad features?
[10:11] <Keybuk> indeed, rookery has been too much of a "staff machine" to just open up
[10:11] <sivang> ogra: yes, probably as PPA's
[10:11] <mdz> ogra: yes, it will
[10:11] <kristog> mdz, yes, i agree with you.
[10:11] <Keybuk> it would be too much of an audit
[10:11] <kristog> simira, PPA?
[10:11] <mdz> which is one of the reasons why there need to be concrete examples of how this service would be used
[10:11] <pitti> kristog: personal package archives
[10:11] <mdz> which are not already planned for launchpad
[10:11] <kristog> pitti,  thank you.
[10:12] <jdong> if we're speaking of LP as a SF, then being a ubuntu member doesn't seem like an appropriate requirement for posting packages to download
[10:12] <sivang> mdz: s/not// ?
[10:12] <mdz> PPA = personal packages archives = a facility provided by launchpad for publishing .debs in a repository for use with apt
[10:12] <Keybuk> mdz: much as the existing staff use their people areas?  random files uploaded for other people to download
[10:12] <Keybuk> it's not just debs
[10:12] <mdz> sivang: no
[10:12] <Keybuk> a quick glance at mine shows various bits and bobs
[10:12] <pitti> yeah, I use mine for screenshots, patches, etc., too
[10:13] <mdz> my public_html has: 1) branches (which now belong on the supermirror)
[10:13] <mdz> 2) random files which apply to bug reports (which should now be attachments in launchpad)
[10:14] <mdz> 3) packages (which will belong in PPAs soon)
[10:14] <pitti> my ~/public_html/bugpatterns/ is an interesting case
[10:14] <mdz> 4) random photos from Ubuntu events
[10:14] <Keybuk> I have a lot of "files I wanted somebody to look at"
[10:14] <pitti> it's functionality that *should* eventually go to LP, but isn't net
[10:14] <mdz> that's pretty much it for me
[10:14] <jdong> pitti: yeah, that's what I'm getting out of this
[10:14] <mdz> a few other things which have moved elsewhere
[10:15] <pitti> so, they are nice for using as a staging area for future LP features
[10:15] <kristog> jdong, in fact we have a wiki a bugtrack a bzr repo, we can do what we want with this services, but in the last 3 weeks i said a lot of times, why i have to put XXXX on my ~ on people.d.o and not on people.u.com
[10:15] <mdz> pitti: what is that?
[10:15] <sivang> pitti: what's http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/bugpatterns/ used for ?
[10:16] <keescook> it's a repo for apport to check for common crashes
[10:16] <pitti> mdz, sivang: I recently announced it to ubuntu-devel, let me find the archive link
[10:16] <smurf> pitti: "staging area" isn't entirely appropriate here, I'd call it "random junk"  ;-)
[10:16] <mdz> pitti: never mind, I'll see it when I catch up on lists
[10:16] <mdz> s/when/if/
[10:16] <sivang> pitti: ah, keescook explained it, thanks.
[10:16] <pitti> unfortunately my network sucks ATM, so new connections take ages
[10:17] <mjg59> I think one interesting example is the set of "unofficial" services on people.debian.org
[10:17] <mjg59> Like alternative interfaces to mailing list archives
[10:17] <keescook> bugpatterns> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-October/021502.html
[10:17] <pitti> keescook: thanks
[10:17] <Keybuk> mjg59: at that point we're talking about more than just a "download area" -- and have elevated it to "shell account"
[10:18] <mjg59> Keybuk: Right
[10:18] <mjg59> Keybuk: I think that useful things have come out of that, and so we ought to consider whether to provide a similar service
[10:18] <mdz> shell accounts for all members would not be workable
[10:18] <mdz> for -core-dev, possibly
[10:19] <kristog> mdz, why not for all member?
[10:19] <mdz> but realistically, Canonical is the only entity in a position to offer this service (and there is a substantial amont of work associated with it, both for setup and manitenance) so we would need to demonstrate a benefit to them
[10:19] <mdz> kristog: security
[10:20] <kristog> mdz, please explain :)
[10:20] <mdz> kristog: handing out shell accounts as liberally as we grant membership is unwise for security reasons.
[10:20] <mdz> that won't fly
[10:20] <Keybuk> kristog: giving shell accounts on a machine in the canonical data centre to every ubuntu member ... it would be hard to get canonical to accept that risk
[10:20] <ajmitch> kristog: you've seen the issues with debian infrastructure at times, with ssh/gpg keys left open & abused
[10:21] <Keybuk> ajmitch: it takes a year or more to get access to the debian machines
[10:21] <ajmitch> the bar for membership is much lower than that for debian
[10:21] <kristog> ajmitch, yes, but afaik only 1 time we had problem
[10:21] <Keybuk> our membership process is MUCH easier
[10:21] <kristog> Keybuk, yes, but we should trust people
[10:21] <kristog> we as ubuntu
[10:21] <ajmitch> Keybuk: I agree, and many members wouldn't understand some of the issues with security either
[10:21] <mdz> kristog: in response to your /msg, becoming a Debian developer is nothing like becoming an ubuntu member
[10:22] <smurf> kristog: security unfortunately doesn't work with a "should trust" metric
[10:22] <kristog> mdz, yes, but it's not a signed gpg key that make the difference
[10:22] <mdz> kristog: and, I might add, Debian has had more than one disastrous security incident involving a breach of one or more of those shell accounts
[10:22] <Keybuk> kristog: why?  I wouldn't expect it to take long before people applied for membership simply to get a free shell account, and then used that for various illegal activities
[10:22] <sivang> that's a very good point.
[10:22] <kristog> sivang, yes, poeple is bad
[10:23] <kristog> but i guess we shouldn't start with this kind of argomentation.
[10:23] <kristog> for example : i can attach an illegal mp3 to LP
[10:23] <Keybuk> mjg59: thoughts on shell accounts?
[10:24] <pitti> kristog: but you still cannot hack the data center with bug attachments
[10:24] <jdong> kristog: you can do a lot more destructive things faster with a shell account
[10:24] <smurf> kristog: but it's obvious when you do that. What you do in your own shell account somewhere isn't.
[10:24] <jdong> and SF also has compromise issues with their shell servers
[10:24] <mjg59> Keybuk: I think it would be desirable to provide them, but as noted it's not reasonable to offer them to all members
[10:25] <mdz> I expect that shell accounts would not be an option for a broad subset of contributors
[10:25] <mdz> it's simply too much security risk and administrative hassle
[10:25] <pitti> ++
[10:25] <mdz> more likely would be a WebDAV share
[10:25] <mdz> or sftp
[10:25] <pitti> also, web space is easy to get and cheap or free nowadays
[10:25] <jdong> pitti: heh, tell me that as a broke student :)
[10:26] <pitti> jdong: students usually have shell accounts in universities
[10:26] <mdz> my universities gave me free web space and shell accounts
[10:26] <pitti> I certainly had *more* bw and storage space than I have now :)
[10:26] <mdz> some of which I still have
[10:26] <mdz> being a student should be an advantage in this case, not a disadvantage
[10:26] <Keybuk> jdong: http://pages.google.com/
[10:26] <pitti> so, an upload area would be great, but shell accounts are not necessary for most use cases
[10:26] <pitti> so I wouldn't give them out by default
[10:26] <kristog> mdz, pitti yes, but i'm doing officially ubuntu work why i cannot put it on an official ubuntu space?
[10:27] <sivang> pitti++
[10:27] <pitti> if a particular member has an idea for a project that requires shell access, this can still be discussed on a case-by-case basis
[10:27] <pitti> e. g. working together with someone who has a shell account, and using bzr branches, or so
[10:27] <Seveas> I'd love to be able to put the various rss feeds I maintain on people.ubuntu.com -- bandwith usage is killing me
[10:27] <pitti> kristog: as I said, an upload area (sftp only) would be nice
[10:28] <sivang> pitti: like specific mass process scripts for certain stuff.
[10:28] <kristog> pitti, right.
[10:28] <pitti> sivang: since that will have a considerable resource impact, it should be discussed with the admins anyway
[10:28] <sivang> pitti: indeed, that's why it's in only special and specific cases :)
[10:29] <Keybuk> Seveas's rss feeds take all the bandwidth away from the archive?
[10:29] <mdz> kristog: I have done work on a lot of projects without having those projects give me a free shell account or web space
[10:29] <ajmitch> note that we do have tiber (revu.tauware.de) for some stuff
[10:29] <pitti> I know that many tasks require mass-processing (I'm hogging rookery with all sorts of weird stuff, too), but we shouldn't give that away *by default* to everyone
[10:29] <mdz> it's not a typical arrangement
[10:29] <sivang> indeed.
[10:29] <ajmitch> a number of MOTUs have accounts & space on tiber
[10:30] <dholbach> (which is the revu host)
[10:30] <sivang> are they canonical machines?
[10:30] <dholbach> no, revu.tauware.de
[10:30] <ajmitch> not in the data centre
[10:30] <sivang> ah
[10:30] <mdz> I think we have a consensus that it would be useful to have a service to allow some Ubuntu contributors to publish content on the web at no cost
[10:31] <mdz> but further discussion is needed (esp. with the CC and Canonical) to estiblish the specifics of what can be put into place
[10:31] <mdz> Keybuk,mjg59: can we agree there and follow up accordingly?
[10:31] <Keybuk> I agree
[10:32] <mjg59> Yup
[10:32] <mdz> ok, I will follow up via email
[10:32] <mdz> to CC and Canonical sysadmin
[10:32] <mdz> (and TB of course)
[10:32] <mdz> when there is something to announce it will go to -devel-announce
[10:32] <mdz> kristog: thanks for bringing this up; it's something which ought to be given serious consideration
[10:32] <kristog> mdz, Keybuk  mjg59 thank you
[10:33] <mdz> on to -core-dev
[10:33] <Keybuk> On cooooorrre dev tonight
[10:33] <mdz> there have been three applicants since the last meeting
[10:33] <mdz> Joao Zanella, "okaratas" and Butch Bristow
[10:34] <mjg59> Any of them here?
[10:34] <mdz> dholbach: did you receive responses to your pings of any of those?
[10:34] <ajmitch> hm, none of those really sound familiar :)
[10:34] <dholbach> mdz: I notified you about each and everyone of them
[10:34] <Keybuk> . o O { I know a Flash Bristow ;) }
[10:34] <mdz> none of them are MOTU yet
[10:35] <dholbach> mdz: I need to compile that list (people <-> date of mail) still -  I was too busy.
[10:35] <ajmitch> mdz: I presume that launchpad can't enforce that people have to be members of one team to try & join another?
[10:35] <mdz> dholbach: did you send me the template you use to explain the process, i.e. joining motu first?
[10:35] <mdz> ajmitch: I don't think so, no
[10:35] <Keybuk> ajmitch: we don't always enforce a strict ubuntu-dev -> ubuntu-core-dev progression
[10:35] <mdz> we could set it up so that no one could apply for -core-dev directly, and would need to ask an administrator
[10:35] <Keybuk> ajmitch: some people have gone straight to the latter
[10:36] <mdz> anyone applying for -core-dev ought to know who to talk to
[10:36] <mdz> and it's in launchpad anyway
[10:36] <dholbach> mdz: I sent you a explanation you put in the launchpad team description
[10:36] <Keybuk> mdz: that would be tricky ... we'd have to keep a manual list of those people
[10:36] <Keybuk> the fact that we have a little date-sorted pending table atm is rather useful
[10:36] <mdz> dholbach: ah, right, that's where I stashed it
[10:36] <mdz> Keybuk: I think it's useful for -dev, but not really for -core-dev
[10:37] <mdz> it's much smaller and more stable
[10:37] <mdz> the vast majority of the applicants there are random people probing the system to see what they can do
[10:37] <Keybuk> my experience is that people just click "Join Team" in an Orkut/Myspace style on everything they see
[10:37] <jdong> lol
[10:37] <mdz> yes
[10:38] <mdz> well, I'm going to go through the -core-dev list and decline everyone who isn't in -dev
[10:38] <mdz> I think there are a few there who were deferred at a meeting but not declined in LP also
[10:38] <tepsipakki> the wikis should also be updated to point out clearly that the path is member -> dev -> core-dev
[10:38] <mdz> I'll see if I can clean those up
[10:39] <mdz> tepsipakki: I wrote https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers to start clarifying the process
[10:39] <mdz> it needs better linkage
[10:40] <tepsipakki> ah, yes.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaintainerCandidates is a bit older
[10:40] <mdz> anyway, moving on
[10:40] <Keybuk> ubuntu-dev
[10:40] <mdz> there seem to be 5 -dev applicants
[10:40] <mdz> one of them is also okaratas
[10:41] <mdz> sbalneav doesn't seem to be present
[10:41] <jdong> mdz: I'm also here to be considered for -dev (my name has been on the list for a very long time, sorry, I know)
[10:41] <mdz><EMAIL_ADDRESS>is a very strange realname
[10:41] <ogra> nope, he's on his way home
[10:41] <mdz> jdong: indeed it has
[10:41] <tepsipakki> I've been on that list for a while now, but since I've had no net at home participation in these meetings has been.. difficult ;)
[10:41] <mdz> jdong: that means you get to go first
[10:41] <jdong> oh boy... :)
[10:42] <jdong> so how does it usually work? you guys ask the questions?
[10:42] <ogra> you give a three line intro
[10:43] <jdong> hi, I'm jdong.. you probably know me from Backports or the forums
[10:43] <jdong> I'm recently been more and more interested in becoming MOTU
[10:43] <jdong> I've found myself scratching at more and more bug reports
[10:43] <jdong> and some Backports work requires reaching into universe
[10:43] <mdz> jdong: you should read  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers and give an introduction which shows how you fit the guidelines for joining
[10:44] <jdong> ah, didn't know bout that
[10:44] <mdz> it's new :-)
[10:44] <mdz> if you'd like to take a few minutes and prepare while someone else presents, that's fine with me
[10:44] <jdong> well, I think I've worked with ubuntu and the developers enough to understand most packaging concepts
[10:44] <jdong> and development processes around here
[10:45] <mdz> jdong: can you give us some examples of packaging work you have done?
[10:45] <mdz> jdong: have you had uploads sponsored for you by existing members of the development team?
[10:45] <jdong> mdz: yeah, I've had some ktorrent and acidrips sponsored
[10:46] <mdz> jdong: by whom?
[10:46] <jdong> imbrandon has sponsored a ktorrent upload for me
[10:46] <ogra> jdong, ... "merge new versions from Debian" ... would you take part in that, even if your focus lies in backports ?
[10:46] <jdong> nafallo sponsored my acidrip upload
[10:46] <mdz> are imbrandon and nafallo present?
[10:46] <jdong> ogra: that seems to fit into the backports paradigm
[10:46] <jdong> ogra: I'd be willing to do more MOTU type of work, certainly
[10:47] <ogra> right, but would ayou do it for plain universe ? :)
[10:47] <ogra> right, thankls :)
[10:47] <ogra> *thanks
[10:47] <jdong> ogra: why not? what's in universe directly benefits backports :)
[10:47] <ogra> correct
[10:47] <jdong> I guess that's something I didn't understand two years back :)
[10:47] <jdong> so, ogra, you were right :)
[10:48] <ogra> :)
[10:48] <ajmitch> jdong: ktorrent/acidrip were new packages or fixes?
[10:48] <jdong> ajmitch: primarily fixes
[10:48] <mdz> jdong: it's a good idea to have a number of uploads reviewed and uploaded by an existing developer, so that we have some background on your work
[10:49] <jdong> ok, what'd be considered "a number"?
[10:49] <mdz> two uploads isn't much, and neither of the sponsors have provided feedback about your work
[10:50] <jdong> ok
[10:50] <mdz> jdong: it would depend on the nature of the work, but if you want a guideline, I'd say probably >=10
[10:50] <jdong> ok
[10:50] <mdz> depending on whether the changes were trivial, who reviewed them, and how they felt about the sponsorship process
[10:51] <mdz> I'm going to improve the documentation about what we expect from developer applicants
[10:52] <jdong> I'll definitely try to get more involved then
[10:52] <mdz> basically what we need is enough information to make a judgement
[10:52] <jdong> sorry if the application was somewhat premature by the standards set
[10:52] <mdz> I know what you've done with backports, but uploading packages is a little different and we need to have more to go on
[10:52] <jdong> ok
[10:52] <mdz> I'll add some tips and a basic process to UbuntuDevelopers, I hope that will help you to prepare and reapply
[10:53] <jdong> thank you
[10:53] <mdz> tepsipakki: are you ready?
[10:53] <tepsipakki> I guess.. :)
[10:54] <mdz> please go ahead
[10:55] <tepsipakki> I'm Timo Aaltonen, working for Computing Centre of Helsinki University of Technology. My work includes administering 220+ dapper-workstations and some Tru64 servers and clusters
[10:55] <tepsipakki> for more go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoAaltonen
[10:56] <mdz> that's quite a few workstations
[10:56] <mdz> have you seen http://www.ubuntu.com/mystory ?
[10:56] <tepsipakki> I've been offline outside of work since June (until two weeks ago), so edgy was a bit off my queue
[10:56] <tepsipakki> mdz: yes I have
[10:57] <tepsipakki> but that kind of stuff has to go via my boss..
[10:57] <mdz> tepsipakki: we certainly would appreciate if you would ask :-)
[10:57] <tepsipakki> I'll do that ;)
[10:57] <mdz> so can you tell us about the development work you have already done on Ubuntu?
[10:58] <tepsipakki> mdz: well, I haven't been sponsored that much.. during dapper there was gtkpod-aac, libgssapi, librpcsecgss that I can remember
[10:59] <mdz> who was your sponsor, and are they able to speak on your behalf?
[10:59] <tepsipakki> then the debian maintainer (anibal) took over libgssapi&librpcsecgss in April I think
[10:59] <tepsipakki> oh, I don't remember
[11:00] <ajmitch> looks like jpatrick, who's not around
[11:00] <tepsipakki> actually, libgssapi&librpcsecgss were sponsored by anibal directly into debian
[11:01] <mdz> tepsipakki: is there any information you can provide us which would be useful in helping us judge whether you meet the guidelines for joining ubuntu-dev?
[11:02] <tepsipakki> hmm
[11:04] <tepsipakki> I'm not sure :/ Since there have been no sponsored packages for a while, it's hard to gather evidence
[11:05] <tepsipakki> not that there ever were that many
[11:06] <mdz> tepsipakki: would you be willing to work with MOTU to find a sponsor who would then advocate you?
[11:06] <tepsipakki> sure
[11:06] <mdz> if you've been away for a while, it would be a good idea to spend some time doing hands-on packaging work to get back into the groove
[11:06] <mdz> ajmitch sounded keen :-)
[11:07] <tepsipakki> there's libpam-krb5 which needs to be sorted out before edgy releases ;)
[11:07] <ajmitch> so far I've just seen UVF exceptions, but I'm happy to work with you on that stuff
[11:07] <mdz> if there's an edgy matter to discuss, please email me; this meeting is already running long
[11:07] <ajmitch> even that should just be a sync
[11:07] <mdz> thanks ajmitch
[11:07] <mdz> I don't think<EMAIL_ADDRESS>is present
[11:07] <mdz> so kristog is up next
[11:08] <tepsipakki> ok, we can continue this when there is more to show :)
[11:08] <kristog> ok :)
[11:08] <mdz> tepsipakki: sounds good
[11:08] <kristog> i'm Riccardo Setti, i'm a debian-developer
[11:08] <kristog> my work on ubuntu until know was do some package work
[11:08] <kristog> i packaged with dholbach most of the telepathy packages
[11:09] <kristog> for more information  you can take a look https://launchpad.net/people/giskard
[11:09] <kristog> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RiccardoSetti
[11:09] <pitti> I often see your name on utopia and network-manager alioth commits, right?
[11:09] <kristog> pitti, :)
[11:09] <kristog> yes.
[11:09] <kristog> pitti, yes i don NM and g-p-m for Debian
[11:10] <mdz> dholbach: do you have some input regarding kristog?
[11:10] <kristog> i'm tring to improve the ubuntu packages too
[11:10] <ogra> kristog expressed interest to care for gnome-power-manager in ubuntu as well btw :)
[11:10] <jdong> heh, that's well needed :D
[11:10] <dholbach> I think I would repeat myself with what I said a the CC meeting: kristog ROCKS, he works hard on galago, telepathy and desktop packages. he's apt, he helps other team members, he talks to upstream, he's everywhere. it's a pleasure to work with him and he's very funny.
[11:10] <ogra> yeah, and i'd love to get it off my back
[11:11] <mdz> dholbach: a ringing endorsement indeed!
[11:11] <mdz> kristog: how long have you been a Debian developer?
[11:11] <kristog> mdz, i paied him ;)
[11:11] <imbrandon> sorry did mdz ping me ?
[11:11] <dholbach> hahahah - a true Italian ;-)
[11:11] <kristog> mdz, officially since may
[11:11] <ogra> dholbach, *giggle*
[11:11] <kristog> mdz, i started my procces long time ago
[11:12] <mdz> kristog: who were your AM/sponsors in Debian?
[11:12] <kristog> mdz, http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=riccardo+Setti&comaint=yes
[11:12] <kristog> mdz, AM seees and HE
[11:12] <kristog> my sponsor frankie md lool sjoerd
[11:12] <kristog> joeyh
[11:12] <kristog> ccontavalli
[11:13] <kristog> vorlon one time
[11:13] <mdz> kristog: how did you become interested in contributing to ubuntu as well as Debian?  do you plan to do similar types of work or different things?
[11:14] <kristog> i shared interest with Ubuntu people
[11:14] <kristog> so i started working with them..
[11:14] <kristog> (galago)
[11:15] <kristog> and with telepathy i started do real work for it
[11:15] <kristog> and..if i maintain NM for Debian why i cannot help the Ubuntu NM maintainer
[11:15] <mdz> how did your experience differ in developing for Ubuntu vs. Debian?
[11:16] <kristog> mdz, the proccess is different
[11:16] <kristog> and the social skill of developer are sometimes different
[11:16] <kristog> i like work with dholbach because we don't speak only of Ubuntu
[11:16] <mdz> can you elaborate regarding the social differences you noticed?
[11:17] <mdz> Keybuk,mjg59: still here?
[11:17] <mjg59> Yup
[11:17] <ogra> kristog, do you teach hinm italian ? i know he lacks there ;)
[11:17] <seb128> kristog is doing a really good job on telepathy team and desktop packages too
[11:18] <kristog> ogra, atm no :) if he will ask me i will happy to do :) i need some german lesson :)
[11:18] <kristog> seb128, :)
[11:18] <Keybuk> mdz: barely I'm afraid, I may have to flake out soon
[11:18] <mdz> Keybuk: just one more after kristog
[11:18] <mjg59> kristog: Have you got an answer to mdz's question?
[11:18] <ogra> kristog, well, teaching dholbach another lang is easy, just send him the latest harry potter italian edition ;)
[11:19] <ogra> :)
[11:19] <kristog> ogra, AHAHAHAAH
[11:19] <kristog> mjg59, ?
[11:19] <mjg59> 22:16 < mdz> can you elaborate regarding the social differences you noticed?
[11:19] <kristog> didn't see it. sorry.
[11:20] <mjg59> np :)
[11:20] <kristog> i feel it in a different way...
[11:20] <kristog> i cannot explain it...it's something...
[11:21] <kristog> mjg59,  mdz  you feel if something is different, i feel Debian more "techincal"
[11:22] <mjg59> Ok, that's a distinction I think I can understand
[11:22] <pitti> more 'human'? :p
[11:22] <ogra> more ubuntu !
[11:22] <mdz> kristog: based on what you said about dholbach, it sounds like you found it easier to relate to Ubuntu developers on a social level
[11:22] <kristog> pitti, no, a lot of debian people are *human*
[11:22] <pitti> kristog: (I know, just kidding)
[11:22] <kristog> pitti, :)
[11:22] <mdz> kristog: do you find it easier to relate to Debian developers on technical issues, relative to Ubuntu?
[11:23] <pitti> kristog: I'm a DD myself, and on the person-to-person level Debian works great for me, too
[11:24] <kristog> mdz, the approach is different
[11:25] <kristog> it's a mind restriction i guess..but in fact is so..
[11:25] <kristog> for example seb128 in #gnome-debian is different from the seb128 in #ubuntu-desktop
[11:25] <kristog> (sorry seb128 ;) )
[11:25] <mdz> really?  there are two faces of seb128?
[11:25] <ogra> heh
[11:26] <kristog> mdz, don't know, but i feel him so
[11:26] <seb128> I'm less participating on #gnome-debian for sure
[11:26] <ogra> the french and the german sebastiens ?
[11:27] <kristog> seb128, this was not my point :)
[11:27] <dholbach> ogra: http://photos.jonathancarter.co.za/udsparis2006/800_PICT0136 <- germans
[11:27] <seb128> the chan ambiance is not the same
[11:27] <seb128> sure I don't hug people on #gnome-debian
[11:27] <seb128> I'm not sure on how much they would like it :p
[11:27] <mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: any questions?
[11:27] <ogra> dholbach, *g*
[11:27] <Keybuk> mdz: none from me
[11:27] <kristog> seb128, RIGHT :)
[11:27] <mjg59> No, I'm happy
[11:28] <mdz> ok, votes
[11:28] <Keybuk> +1
[11:28] <mjg59> 1
[11:28] <mdz> +1 from me based on Debian contributions and strong endorsements
[11:28] <dholbach> CONGRATULATIONS kristog!
[11:28] <mdz> kristog: congratulations and welcome
[11:28] <pitti> kristog: welcome!
[11:28] <seb128> kristog: congrat :)
[11:28] <sivang> congrets kristog
[11:28] <kristog> Keybuk, mjg59  mdz thank you :)
[11:28] <mdz> keescook: you're up next
[11:28] <keescook> I'm Kees Cook, and I'm part of the Ubuntu Security Team.  I've been busy triaging CVE reports that impact Ubuntu.  Outside of the security updates I've been doing, I've also done bug triage/fixing in edgy, and have been making progress towards becoming an official Debian Developer.  (http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=kees@outflux.net).
[11:28] <keescook> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeesCook for details about my recent packaging work.  (I can paste a summary here too, if you want.)
[11:29] <keescook> With MOTU standing, I would continue doing the same work as linked above, but I'd also be in a better position to help with merges and mentoring.  I'd like to someday become ubuntu-core-dev.  Thanks!
[11:29] <ogra> kristog, congrats !
[11:29] <mdz> pitti: I assume you've been sponsoring his uploads; what has your experience been?
[11:29] <phanatic> congrats kristog :)
[11:29] <kristog> phanatic, ogra, thank you.
[11:29] <keescook> I asked crimsun to join us, but I think he is busy.  (he sponsored one of my uploads too)
[11:29] <pitti> keescook quickly became familiar with basic packaging and with all sorts of differnt irky patch systems
[11:30] <pitti> I had to correct his very first updates, but the current ones have a consistent high quality and no major bugs
[11:30] <mdz> pitti: would you say that you generally upload his packages unmodified now?
[11:30] <pitti> he's a quick learner, doesn't hesitate to ask questions and is very curious about everything
[11:30] <pitti> mdz: yes, I do
[11:31] <pitti> I check the debdiff, but there have been no necessary fixes
[11:31] <mdz> great to hear
[11:31] <pitti> and he's very good at analyzing flaws
[11:31] <pitti> writing exploits on his own, etc
[11:32] <pitti> he certainly does not yet know everything about packaging
[11:32] <Keybuk> isn't he supposed to be fixing them? :)
[11:32] <keescook> thanks to pitti's eye and mentoring, I got debian sponsorship for some packages very quickly.
[11:32] <mdz> Keybuk,mjg59: I've talked with kees on more than one occasion already so we are fairly familiar already
[11:32] <pitti> Keybuk: that too :)
[11:32] <mdz> pitti: he needs to know the basics, and enough to know when he doesn't know ;-)
[11:32] <Keybuk> my concern is that Kees hasn't done much packaging work of his own yet
[11:32] <pitti> but he now knows enough for me to have him do uploads on his own
[11:32] <Keybuk> we rejected jdong earlier for only having two sponsored uploads
[11:33] <Keybuk> and kees doesn't show many more to the archive, proper
[11:33] <mdz> Keybuk: not only that; even for those uploads there was no feedback
[11:33] <pitti> he did some non-security uploads to edgy, too
[11:33] <Keybuk> I'm inclined to treat the security archive much like the backports archive, as a separate entity
[11:33] <Keybuk> mdz: do we have feedback on kees uploads to edgy itself?
[11:34] <mdz> I'd disagree, given that the backports system to date has been purely rebuilds and hands-off on packaging
[11:34] <keescook> Keybuk: I can ask crimsun what he thought; he handled my debdiff for abuse-sdl.
[11:34] <ogra> i see 8 tagged with his name
[11:34] <keescook> (which were also taken by the debian maintainer)
[11:35] <keescook> https://launchpad.net/people/keescook/+packages  :)
[11:35] <mdz> Keybuk: yes, security uploads via pitti
[11:35] <Keybuk> mdz: as I said, I'm inclined to treat security differently
[11:35] <mdz> Keybuk: security uploads _to edgy_
[11:35] <Keybuk> especially as group membership has no bearing over it
[11:36] <pitti> Keybuk: it does
[11:36] <pitti> Keybuk: upload privs to -security are no different from the privs to upload to edgy
[11:36] <Keybuk> pitti: I thought security had its own keyring with just you in it?
[11:37] <pitti> Keybuk: no, every MOTU can upload universe apcakges, and every core dev to main -security
[11:37] <pitti> Keybuk: I'm just the only one who approves them in the queue
[11:37] <pitti> (so far)
[11:37] <pitti> ouch, it's too late to type -- 'apcakges' *cough*
[11:37] <mdz> uber privileges are required to actually push the update to users
[11:38] <mdz> but it is more or less like uploading to -updates
[11:38] <mdz> where the upload needs to be approved by an archive admin
[11:38] <pitti> so far Kees has been very cautious when it came to stuff he didn't yet know about
[11:38] <pitti> and he has shown to be very picky about reading debdiffs, etc.
[11:38] <keescook> I don't want my name on broken stuff.  :)
[11:39] <Keybuk> you dpatch'd python2.3? :)
[11:39] <keescook> Keybuk: it lacks dpatch, and as a result, on a clean build, my original patch failed.
[11:40] <keescook> i.e. at the time, I didn't have clean chroots (now I do)
[11:40] <keescook> and they had dpatch, but the buildd's didn't, obviously.
[11:40] <Keybuk> almost all of your sponsored uploads have been to main
[11:40] <Keybuk> what kind of thing do you want to do in universe?
[11:40] <keescook> specifically, I'd like to watch over inkscape, and fix games.
[11:41] <pitti> (inkscape is main, for the record)
[11:41] <keescook> er, whoops, yeah.
[11:41] <keescook> there are things I use in universe as well: sendmail, clamav
[11:41] <keescook> so I'd like to see those kept safe, up to date, etc.
[11:41] <Keybuk> keescook: are you planning to join the MOTU Games Team?
[11:42] <Keybuk> or either of the Ubuntu Games teams? :p
[11:42] <pitti> we also have some universe tasks about cleaning up library duplication (which is sort of security related, too); would you be interested in helping with that?
[11:42] <keescook> Keybuk: if there is need.  :)
[11:42] <pitti> like, getting rid of openssl097, old libdb versions, libtasn1-2, etc.
[11:42] <keescook> pitti: sure, is there a history of that process anywhere for me to read?
[11:43] <pitti> keescook: let's talk about that after the meeting
[11:43] <mdz> there's a specification even
[11:43] <pitti> yeah, DapperDuplicatedPackages or so
[11:43] <mdz> reducing-duplication
[11:44] <mdz> mjg59: any questions for keescook?
[11:46] <mjg59> I think I'm pretty happy wiht him
[11:47] <mdz> Keybuk: anything more?
[11:47] <Keybuk> mdz: nothing more
[11:47] <mdz> ok, votes
[11:47] <mjg59> +1 based on the recommendations from others
[11:47] <mdz> +1 based on substantial Ubuntu and Debian contributions, feedback from pitti and prior personal interviews
[11:48] <Keybuk> -1, not enough uploads to universe at this time
[11:48] <pitti> Keybuk: fair point
[11:48] <mdz> 2/3 majority, welcome keescook
[11:48] <pitti> keescook: welcome to the team!
[11:48] <keescook> woo!
[11:48] <dholbach> congratulations keescook!
[11:48] <mdz> keescook: I expect you to make Keybuk's reservations inapplicable in short order
[11:49] <ogra> welcome keescook !
[11:49] <keescook> Keybuk: given the UVF, what areas should I focus on in the near-term for universe?
[11:49] <mdz> keescook: otherwise it will come back to haunt your -core-dev application :-)
[11:49] <pitti> keescook: openssl transition would be most welcome
[11:49] <Keybuk> keescook: that would be better off co-ordinated with the MOTU than me
[11:49] <keescook> Keybuk: okay, noted.  I will bug dholbach.  ;)
[11:49] <pitti> that is, if universe remains unfrozen for some time until release
[11:49] <mdz> keescook: dholbach can guide you there
[11:50] <mdz> ok, that's all of the pending candidates I saw
[11:50] <dholbach> keescook: tomorrow? :-)
[11:50] <keescook> dholbach: sure thing.  :)
[11:50] <mdz> is there any other business?
[11:50] <dholbach> rock and roll
[11:50] <Keybuk> I had one item of "further business"
[11:50] <mdz> Keybuk: by all means
[11:50] <Keybuk> the original TB appointments (mine and yours) were for two years, and mjg59's I believe was for one year
[11:50] <Keybuk> all of these expire at the end of this month
[11:50] <Keybuk> do we have any word from the sabdfl what the plan is
[11:50] <mdz> wow, the time has passed quickly
[11:50] <Keybuk> hasn't it just
[11:50] <Seveas> (this also holds for the CC)
[11:51] <Keybuk> I suspect the answer is "ask Mark"
[11:51] <Keybuk> interestingly, his technically should expire too ;)
[11:51] <mdz> emailing technical-board would be a good start
[11:51] <mdz> if nothing happens there, I have a call scheduled with him later this week and will raise the issue then
[11:52] <mdz> (have made a note of it)
[11:52] <mdz> Keybuk: the launchpad expiry dates say 2007, but what you said sounds more correct
[11:53] <mdz> anything more?
[11:53] <Keybuk> yeah, the LP stuff is a bit random as it's just when the groups were moved around, etc.
[11:53] <mdz> workrave is demanding my first born
[11:53] <pitti> mdz: what will be the official course for announcing EOL of hoary?
[11:53] <Keybuk> mdz: heh, my other half has been turning lights off around me for the past half an hour
[11:54] <pitti> ok, we can discuss this later, nevermind
[11:54] <mdz> pitti: it'll go to -security-announce and some user-oriented lists/forums
[11:54] <mdz> Canonical comms is handling the announcement
[11:54] <pitti> ah, -s-a is nice, we didn't do that for warty
[11:55] <mdz> ok, not hearing any further business
[11:55] <mdz> adjourned, thanks all
[11:55] <pitti> thanks all
[11:55] <keescook> thanks!
[11:55] <mdz> what a marathon
[11:56] <ajmitch> that's probably a record length meeting
[11:56] <sivang> thanks all
[11:56] <sivang> ajmitch: we've had longer, I'm sure
[11:56] <Seveas> it's nothing compared to CC
[11:56] <pitti> yes, we had some 4 hours already
[11:56] <Seveas> last 2 were 3h+
[11:56] <ajmitch> Seveas: CC is different
[11:57] <mdz> jdong: (I finished those edits to UbuntuDevelopers)
[11:57] <Keybuk> night all
[11:58] <jdong> mdz: thx


[03:41] <uchobby> HOw would one go about getting a USB Headset working on Ubuntu 10.04?
[03:42] <meindian523> um, plug it in and tell Sound Preferences to use it?
[03:42] <uchobby> trying that
[03:43] <uchobby> I get a pop up that says waiting for sound to load, and it never goes away, have tired this already
[03:43] <uchobby> "Waiting for sound system to respond"
[03:44] <meindian523> hmm, did your headset come with a driver CD?
[03:44] <uchobby> no
[03:44] <uchobby> and I've had no sound since I installed Ubuntu
[03:44] <meindian523> :/
[03:45] <uchobby> thought maybe I would try a USB headset
[03:45]  * meindian523 doesn't know
[03:45] <meindian523> hey, irrespective of headset or not
[03:45] <meindian523> you don't have sound?
[03:45] <uchobby> right, no sound
[03:46] <meindian523> uchobby, try replacing Pulseaudio with ALSA
[03:46] <uchobby> how? apt-get ALSA?
[03:47] <meindian523> wait
[03:48] <meindian523> pulseaudio's description in Synaptic reads "Wide range of supported client libraries. ESD, ALSA, oss...."
[03:48] <meindian523> strange
[03:49] <uchobby> apt-get install --reinstall pulseaudio - Saw a suggestion to try this, still get the issue, wonder if a restart is required or a mod probe
[03:51] <meindian523> uchobby, honestly, I would be exceeding my sense of responsibility if I advised anything I wasn't sure of
[03:51]  * uchobby nods
[03:53] <meindian523> you'll have to wait for someone who knows this stuff
[03:54] <meindian523> aveilleux, sound help?
[03:54] <uchobby> I check that there is a new version of alsa
[03:54] <uchobby> have intstructions fo rit
[03:55] <uchobby> a bit ugly but I'm going to try
[04:15] <[styx]> ok i dowloaded a program and when i open it to install it it opens archive manager?
[04:15] <[styx]> how do i get the installer?
[04:15] <meindian523> [styx], what program and where did you download it from?
[04:16] <seidos> [styx], did you download a tar ball?  you might have to compile it.
[04:16] <[styx]> eclipse ide from eclipse .org
[04:17] <seidos> [styx], depends what's in the archive you downloaded.  in all likelihood there is a configure script, if there is you will have to try to compile it
[04:17] <seidos> [styx], did you check synpatic package manager to see if there is an eclipse package there?
[04:18] <[styx]> ill look
[04:19] <seidos> well, there is an "eclipse" package.  i did sudo apt-get install eclipse in a terminal and it was going to install something that's 351MB
[04:20] <[styx]> yeah
[04:20] <seidos> yeah, looks right from sudo aptitude search eclipse
[04:20] <seidos> that'll be easier, to install it from synaptic, unless you want to try compiling it yourself
[04:21] <[styx]> wheres sudo
[04:21] <[styx]> i cant find it lol
[04:21] <[styx]> im new to linux
[04:21] <aveilleux> [styx]: It's a command in Terminal.
[04:21] <[styx]> i forget where i found it lasttime
[04:21] <[styx]> cmnd to get it?
[04:21] <aveilleux> [styx]: Um, sudo is its own command.
[04:22] <seidos> [styx], sudo is a command to run a program in terminal with root privileges
[04:22] <[styx]> ok
[04:22] <[styx]> so shallo
[04:22] <[styx]> shall i google the command?
[04:22] <aveilleux> [styx]: There's no reason to,
[04:23] <[styx]> or i kinda want to try compiling it myself
[04:23] <aveilleux> [styx]: We just explained exactly what it does. "root" is the administration account.
[04:23] <seidos> [styx], if you want to learn about, go for it :)
[04:23] <JoeMaverickSett> [styx]: if you would like to read more of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudo
[04:23] <[styx]> cool thaks
[04:52] <meindian523> aveilleux, I think [styx] wanted to find the Terminal
[04:52] <aveilleux> meindian523: Uh, okay...
[04:53] <meindian523> and (s)he was confusing the command sudo with where you issue it, the terminal
[04:53] <meindian523> common mistake with new to computers/ new to linux
[05:07] <aveilleux> [[]
[05:07] <aveilleux> whoops.
[09:26] <Talib> Hi, I am a windows user trying out ubuntu. I was tols that /usr/bin is kinda like program files. My question is why are there no sub-directories used here? It seems a bit disorganized.
[09:26] <Talib> tols=told
[09:29] <pedro3005> Talib, because it's not a good analogy
[09:30] <pedro3005> Talib, http://tldp.org/LDP/Linux-Filesystem-Hierarchy/html/index.html
[09:37] <Talib> ok, thanks. Still seems disorganized though, but I can live with it.
[09:40] <Talib> Let's say I want to write my own ubuntu software. I downloaded Code::Blocks and can compile a basic program. Now let's say I want to distribute this software. Do I just make tarball with a directory structure or are there package creators?
[09:45] <tdn> I have created a user during installation and said Yes to "Encrypt home dirs?". How do I get back to non-encrypted home dirs?
[09:46] <Talib> don't worry, found The Ubuntu Packaging Guide, just a lot to read
[09:57] <pedro3005> tdn, I found http://art.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8459529&postcount=5
[10:03] <arundracula> my wifi card detected.. driver installed using ndiswrapper.. says hardware present.. but No device for wlan0...pls help
[10:05] <arundracula> iwconfig says only lo, eth0 and ppp0... no wlan
[10:05] <arundracula> And those have no wireless extensions
[10:13] <seidos> arundracula, i see you, but i can't think of anything right now.
[10:14] <arundracula> ok
[10:14] <arundracula> Anyway I am posting it in forum
[10:14] <seidos> arundracula, well, do you know what wireless chipset you have?
[10:14] <seidos> arundracula, good idea.  have you tried searching the forum yet?
[10:15] <arundracula> I searched..
[10:15] <arundracula> belkin : driver installed
[10:15] <arundracula> 	device (1799:700F) present (alternate driver: rtl8180)
[10:15] <seidos> arundracula, that doesn't sound like a wireless chipset.  did you download the windows inf file for your wireless device?
[10:16] <seidos> arundracula, do you know that ndiswrapper uses a windows driver to get your wireless working?
[10:16] <seidos> arundracula, you can get your wireless device by doing lscpi | grep Ethernet in terminal
[10:17] <arundracula> It is working in Windows
[10:17] <arundracula> 00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2)
[10:17] <arundracula> 01:06.0 Ethernet controller: Belkin Device 700f (rev 20)
[10:17] <seidos> arundracula, ndiswrapper "wraps" a windows driver so that it can be used in linux
[10:18] <arundracula> ok
[10:19] <arundracula> In windows, it was showing as Ethernet controller. But I got it working by installing its driver in Windows.
[10:19] <seidos> arundracula, after installing ndiswrapper, you have to download the windows driver (the inf file) to ubuntu, then open ndiswrapper and point it to the inf file in ubuntu.
[10:21] <arundracula> Already done.. And it shows belkin: driver installed device (1799:700F) present (alternate driver: rtl8180)
[10:22] <seidos> all right.  hmmm, i'm trying to remember if there was anything else i had to do.
[10:22] <seidos> do you see network manager in the gnome tray?
[10:22] <tdn> pedro3005, should I run that as root or as the user with encrypted home?
[10:22] <tdn> pedro3005, I think this is an area of Ubuntu that is really poorly documented.
[10:22] <arundracula> Yes
[10:22] <tdn> :(
[10:23] <seidos> arundracula, is wireless checked?
[10:23] <seidos> arundracula, when you right click, is wireless checked on?
[10:23] <arundracula> There is no wireless there.
[10:23] <pedro3005> tdn, as the user with the encrypted home I think
[10:24] <seidos> arundracula, so you have the windows driver loaded in ndiswrapper, and no wireless is available.  have you tried restarting?
[10:24] <tdn> pedro3005, well... I am not really comfortable just running such a command. I do not know if it will delete my encrypted files or what.
[10:24] <arundracula> Restarted already.
[10:25] <seidos> arundracula, all i can think to do is to search the forums or google at this point.
[10:25] <arundracula> ok
[10:25] <arundracula> Anyway thank you
[10:25] <seidos> arundracula, it sounds like you've done everything you need to do, but i may be missing something.
[10:25] <seidos> arundracula, i'll help you search if you stick around :)
[10:25] <arundracula> ok
[10:25] <pedro3005> tdn, try man encryptfs-setup-private
[10:26] <arundracula> ifconfig wlan0 says Device not found
[10:27] <seidos> arundracula, are you using 10.04?
[10:28] <tdn> pedro3005, will et be enough if I just do this: rm -rf /home/foo ; deluser foo ; adduser foo ?
[10:28] <pedro3005> tdn, I suppose, but you'll lose your files
[10:28] <seidos> arundracula, did you use this to setup ndiswrapper:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/Ndiswrapper
[10:28] <tdn> pedro3005, I can just manually copy those outside before.
[10:29] <pedro3005> tdn, worth a shot then. couldn't hurt
[10:29] <tdn> pedro3005, ok.
[10:29] <arundracula> I am using 10.04
[10:30] <arundracula> I installed the driver using ndisgtk
[10:31] <seidos> arundracula, did you blacklist the bcm43xx?
[10:31] <arundracula> No
[10:32] <seidos> arundracula, it says to do so in ndiswrapper docs located here:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/Ndiswrapper
[10:33] <arundracula> I was not sure if it is bcm43xx or something in that xx
[10:33] <tdn> pedro3005, I think it is not enouogh. There is some data under /home/.ecryptfs.
[10:34] <arundracula> done
[10:34] <arundracula> blacklisted
[10:35] <seidos> arundracula, you'll probably have to restart to reinitialize wireless.  you can *try* sudo /etc/init.d/networking restart in terminal to see if that does it, otherwise restart
[10:36] <arundracula> I will restart. You'll be here?
[10:38] <seidos> yeah
[11:04] <arundracula> Ok now. ifconfig returns lo, eth0 and ppp0 only
[11:05] <seidos> arundracula, well, i found this on the ubuntuforums:  http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-713058.html
[11:05] <seidos> arundracula, is the wireless device a pci card?
[11:06] <arundracula> Yes
[11:06] <seidos> ifconfig is the same as before, right?
[11:07] <seidos> arundracula, is the inf file you are using named net8185.inf?
[11:07] <arundracula> Yes
[11:08] <arundracula> There are three files, Belkin.ini, bet8185.cat, and RTL85n86.sys
[11:08] <seidos> if you have the realtek chipset, they recommended the net8185.inf driver to be used with the pci card, especially if you can confirm your card is using a realtek chipset
[11:08] <arundracula> sorry net8185.cat
[11:08] <seidos> hm, that's weird, no .inf file.
[11:08] <arundracula> Again sorry
[11:08] <seidos> arundracula, see if you can get a hold of the net8185.inf file from realtech
[11:08] <arundracula> Belkin.inf is really inf, not ini
[11:09] <arundracula> ok
[11:09] <seidos> i see
[11:12] <seidos> arundracula, i think i found it here:  http://www.realtek.com/downloads/downloadsView.aspx?Langid=1&PFid=1&Level=6&Conn=5&ProdID=35&DownTypeID=3&GetDown=false&Downloads=true
[11:13] <seidos> arundracula, there's also a linux driver.  if you get ndiswrapper working, maybe you can try that out if you're so inclined
[11:13] <arundracula> ok
[11:15] <arundracula> The ndiswrapper is for WindowsXP or Vista?
[11:18] <seidos> i think windows xp is a safer bet
[11:18] <arundracula> Because I tried WinXP and shows hardware not present
[11:18] <seidos> with the net8185.inf driver?
[11:18] <arundracula> yes
[11:18] <arundracula> I am trying Vista drivers now
[11:19] <seidos> and you restarted the system after installing?
[11:19] <arundracula> No
[11:19] <seidos> from what i've read, they recommend it.
[11:19] <seidos> but try the vista drivers if you want
[11:20] <seidos> well, basically arundracula, if this doesn't work, you'll have to pull the card out to verify what chipset your belkin card is using.  if it is the realtek 8185 then other people have got it working, so it should be possible if we follow the directions properly.
[11:22] <arundracula> ok
[11:26] <duanedesign> morning all
[11:27] <arundracula> Vista driver is also not working. Showing hardware present to No
[11:28] <seidos> arundracula, i'm not sure what else to try.  if you can confirm the chipset that is on your pci card, that would probably help verify the net8185.inf is the right driver.
[11:28] <arundracula> what if we use ndiswrapper -a parameter
[11:29] <seidos> instead of the gui?  doesn't hurt to try.
[11:29] <seidos> i'm not familiar with the command
[11:29] <arundracula> I looked into the card and it says RTL8185L
[11:29] <seidos> oh, something i also thought might help is poking around in lsmod
[11:30] <seidos> type lsmod in terminal, and look for the belkin device, and make sure no drivers are assigned to it that shouldn't show up
[11:32] <arundracula> No Belkin there
[11:32] <seidos> arundracula, i checked the ndiswrapper list, and the 8185 isn't listed there.  http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ndiswrapper/index.php?title=Category:PCI
[11:32] <seidos> arundracula, you might have better luck trying the linux driver.
[11:33] <arundracula> before that should I try this one's second post? http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=435065
[11:35] <seidos> arundracula, yeah i saw that, but the device id they get is 701f...yours is 700f, and you verified your device is 8185 real tek chipset, and there is an 8185 linux driver from realtek...sooo, i don't know, it's up to you, but if it were i'd try the linux driver from realtek
[11:36] <arundracula> OK I am trying the linux driver.
[11:38] <seidos> arundracula, do you have a belkin f5d7000?
[11:38] <arundracula> Yes
[11:38] <seidos> arundracula, i think this is the forum post you want:  http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-713058.html
[11:39] <seidos> there is also a section where a user "Povilas" posted a quick guide for getting the linux driver working
[11:39] <arundracula> yeah he says about the -a parameter
[11:39] <seidos> i'll download the linux driver to see what kind of documentation comes with it, but it looks like you'll have to compile it :/  sorry, ndiswrapper would have been easier if it works.
[11:40] <arundracula> ok
[11:40] <arundracula> I am trying this one
[11:40] <duanedesign> bug 176507 <--says 'Fix Released'
[11:40] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 176507 in network-config (Ubuntu) (and 2 other projects) "[hardy] RTL8185L driver not working (dups: 2) (heat: 14)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/176507
[11:42] <seidos> duanedesign, thanks, i'll check it out
[11:44] <seidos> duanedesign, well, he's using 10.04, so the fix should already be included.  i think maybe because the device shows up as a belkin in lspci that the realtek driver isn't installed.
[11:52] <arundracula> tried that step. No changes
[11:52] <seidos> arundracula, are you there?  i just found some more ndiswrapper information.
[11:52] <duanedesign> seidos: bug 368679
[11:52] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 368679 in fedora (and 2 other projects) "wifi module rtl8180 freezes the system (affects: 11) (dups: 1) (heat: 64)" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/368679
[11:53] <seidos> arundracula, check out this bug:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/151600
[11:53] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 151600 in linux-source-2.6.22 (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "madwifi no longer working in kernel 2.6.22-12 and 2.6.22-14 (heat: 3)" [Low,Won't fix]
[11:53] <seidos> arundracula, someone said there that they had to do a "ifconfig wlan0 up" to get there wlan0 to show up in ifconfig
[11:54] <arundracula> wlan0: ERROR while getting interface flags: No such device
[11:55] <seidos> arundracula, you have the 1122 version of the realtek inf loaded in ndiswrapper?
[11:57] <arundracula> I don't know
[11:57] <arundracula> After that last step. system is slowing some times
[11:58] <arundracula> So I removed the ndis drivers
[11:58] <seidos> hmmm
[11:58] <arundracula> But .. my first driver automatically detected the hardware without passing the -a parameter. So I think that is correct version
[11:59] <seidos> arundracula, so you're saying it worked?
[12:00] <arundracula> I think it is more compatible than this Realtek's And also I opened the realtek .inf file and it says Wireless 54M Ethernet controller and my card is 54G
[12:00] <duanedesign> did modprobing the driver work. sudo modprobe rtl8180
[12:04] <seidos> that's actually a good idea, a sudo lshw might be a good idea too
[12:05] <duanedesign> i did that on mine and it loaded the rtl8180  drivers
[12:05]  * seidos tries it
[12:06] <duanedesign> lsmod | grep rtl8180
[12:06] <duanedesign> oops, wrong window :P
[12:07] <seidos> yeah it worked for me too, and sudo rmmod rtl8180 removed it
[12:07] <arundracula> Now I removed all ndis drivers. So I want to install it again. Which one.? Realtek's or the previous one?
[12:08] <duanedesign> arundracula: can you try running : sudo modprobe rtl8180
[12:08] <duanedesign> then:  lsmod | grep rtl8180
[12:08] <duanedesign> to make sure it loads
[12:09] <duanedesign> there is a bug about the module not auto loading
[12:09] <arundracula> done
[12:09] <arundracula> It says two warnings
[12:09] <arundracula> All config files need .conf: /etc/modprobe.d/ndiswrapper, it will be ignored in a future release.
[12:10] <arundracula> wowowwowo
[12:10] <arundracula> Now the wireless icon has wireless connections
[12:11] <arundracula> I have no drivers in ndiswrapper. But I run the above code
[12:11] <arundracula> Now it has wireless Menus
[12:11] <arundracula> Now iwconfig says wlan0
[12:12] <duanedesign> ok the .conf warning is ok
[12:12] <duanedesign> it is just a warning that all files in that folder will somedady be required to have .conf
[12:12] <arundracula> ok
[12:14] <duanedesign> arundracula: if you left-click the network icon in the top panel can you see wireless networks?
[12:14]  * seidos bows out
[12:15] <arundracula> Yes now it is there
[12:18] <seidos> arundracula, so everything is cool?  you can connect to your wireless ap?
[12:18] <arundracula> Yeah
[12:18] <arundracula> Thank you all..
[12:18] <arundracula> But..
[12:19] <arundracula> This is not only for connect to AP.. but also for a hotspot .. that I have to find now..
[12:21] <seidos> i don't see how an AP and a hotspot are any different.
[12:21] <duanedesign> gksudo gedit /etc/modules
[12:21] <duanedesign> that looks like where the module needs to be added so it loads at boot
[12:22] <duanedesign> that way you do not have to modprobe it every time you shutdown and start up
[12:22] <arundracula> In that I have to type.. modprobe rtl8180?
[12:23] <duanedesign> just rtl8180
[12:23] <arundracula> ok
[12:24] <duanedesign> http://paste.ubuntu.com/493592/
[12:24] <duanedesign> should look something like that^^
[12:24] <duanedesign> you might not have lp and rtc
[12:24] <arundracula> done
[12:24] <arundracula> I have lp
[12:25] <duanedesign> makes me wonder what 'rtc' is :)
[12:25] <seidos> i was just thinking i wonder if there is a database of all the modules with descriptions
[12:25]  * seidos googles
[12:26] <duanedesign> arundracula: FWIW, modprobe -r <modulename>   will do the opposite and unload a module
[12:26] <arundracula> ok
[12:30] <seidos> hmmm, couldn't find anything
[12:30] <seidos> well i found modprobe -l | more but that doesn't help, since there are no descriptions
[12:31] <arundracula> there is a problem
[12:32] <arundracula> I created a wireless connection and it is not showing up in the left click menu
[12:32] <arundracula> No there are some connect to hidden networks etc..
[12:33] <arundracula> Yo .. working now
[12:36] <duanedesign> great
[12:37] <arundracula> Actually I want to share my ppp0 connection with my mobile over wifi
[12:37] <arundracula> And that is not happening here
[12:44] <arundracula> Thank you for your support
[14:33] <Silver_Fox_> Hello.
[14:34] <duanedesign> hello Silver_Fox_
[14:34] <Silver_Fox_> Hello duanedesign .
[14:34] <Silver_Fox_> How are you sir ?
[14:35] <hobgoblin> hello Silver_Fox_ duanedesign
[14:35] <Silver_Fox_> o/
[15:01] <duanedesign> Silver_Fox_: i am good. Woke up this morning with a craving for some Lunch from my favorite Indian Food restaurant. So I am counting down the hours till Lunch time :)
[15:01] <Silver_Fox_> I usually have breakfast when i wake up
[15:01] <Silver_Fox_> Maybe you were just hungry?
[15:08] <arundracula> I want to share my wvdial internet over wlan0 . How to do?
[15:08] <arundracula> I am not too good in masquerade. So advice needed
[15:12] <arundracula> I don't know what to do after this:  sysctl -w net.ipv4.conf.all.forwarding=1
[15:12] <arundracula> iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o ppp0 -j MASQUERADE
[15:12] <arundracula> iptables-save
[15:18] <duanedesign> arundracula: i am not sure. I have never done that
[15:19] <arundracula> ok
[15:19] <duanedesign> arundracula: However i did have a link in my bookmarks on the subject. http://www.ubuntugeek.com/sharing-internet-connection-in-ubuntu.html
[15:20] <arundracula> checking..
[15:34] <arundracula> I can say how I connected in Windows if it helps
[17:02] <arundracula> Don't know what to do after IPforwarding
[18:29] <reaper50435> I am having trouble installing this game, tried gmount-iso, wine they both give me a error Pol gives me a list of commands but i cannot get them to work
[18:44] <arundracula> I think my wifi card not supporting master mode.. But here says it is .. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/MasterMode#Realtek%20RTL8180%20cards%20(rtl8180-sa2400%20project)
[19:09] <waheed> hi there need help regarding  ircd-ircu
[20:27] <reaper50435> has anyone got suse 9.3 to install in vbox before because it is not detecting the partition hard drive that i made in vbox for it
[21:11] <red1> hi
[21:13] <phillw> hi red1
[21:13] <sebsebseb> Hi
[21:13] <red1> i can't open the link on this page http://watch-series.com/open/cale/98736/idepisod/14224.html
[21:13] <red1> do i need something to open it?
[21:15] <phillw> red1: I've just followed the link and got the following error "You either took a wrong turn or the site is screwed. Don't panic! "; I suggest you follow the http://watch-series.com/contact link to let them know.
[21:15] <red1> but it works with windows
[21:18] <red1> do i need some kind of flash update?
[21:19] <yofel> hm, trying to open that page I got 1 redirect to a 404 message, and one page that tells me to upgrade flash
[21:20] <phillw> red1: http://watch-series.com/404_page reports that it should work okay, I'm not their tech department so you would be best off asking them via the link provided. Sorry I cannot be of more help, but it is not reporting an error on my system, only a server error on theirs.
[21:20] <red1> ok thanks
[21:21] <phillw> I'm using the daily build of chromium, let me just check with my stable Firefox browser .... ahhh, well, they've gone :-\
[21:24] <metulz231> Hello I'm having a problem getting the sound to work on my computer. I've tried finding the driver I need but no luck
[21:28] <phillw> hi metulz231 http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=334 is a really good place to start with, as they have instructions in the sticky area & you can ask about specific drivers etc.
[21:29] <metulz231> Awesome. I just can't figure this out. Kinda frustrated.
[21:53] <kosaidpo> hello guys
[21:53] <kosaidpo> whats the diffrence btw these tree packages linux-image
[21:53] <kosaidpo> linux-headers
[21:53] <kosaidpo> linux-kernel-headers
[22:05] <yofel> kosaidpo: I can't fine linux-kernel-headers anyway, but the image is the actual kernel image and driver modules package, and the headers package contains the source code headers that are needed to build additional driver modules for the kernel (like the nvidia drivers)
[22:06] <yofel> s/anyway/anywhere/
[22:06] <kosaidpo> yofel: okay tnx : )


[03:04] <akgraner> hey y'all..release parties - anyone planning one?
[03:06] <akgraner> If you are in the Triangle area and can make it  - plans are being worked on for a release party on the 28th...
[03:06] <akgraner> we are trying to get a number together to let a venue know how many to expect
[03:07] <akgraner> jack_, Nivex ^^^
[03:07] <akgraner> oh the venue is in Chapel Hill
[03:08] <Nivex> say what now? I don't have to deal with Raleigh traffic?
[03:09] <Nivex> aww, no pgraner. was just going to mention: most of the features I care about in the next release are all upstream kernel stuff :)
[03:12] <akgraner> :-) nah - he'll be in London for release week there
[03:13] <akgraner> This is his busiest time of the year
[03:15] <akgraner> he is at ELC this week, Texas Next week, London the following week  Portland after than then one to UDS from there...  it's crazy
[03:26] <Nivex> I'm a little concerned about my desired switch to Xubuntu.  I brought my test VM back up and my panel doesn't show up. xfce4-panel is running, but it's not visible
[03:29] <Nivex> and I finally got to the panel prefs manager and the config for it is gone anyway :/
[10:10] <_marx_> Nivex: i think the new xfce panel hides by default
[12:37] <Nivex> _marx_: yeah but I had customized the heck out of mine
[12:37] <Nivex> the settings had been mangled.  I'm not gonna lay any blame yet since it's a not well maintained test environment
[12:37] <Nivex> but at some point I'll look into it
[12:53] <_marx_> i used to always have a hardware test env but...only vm's available now
[12:54] <_marx_> _only two computers, how does one live w/o 3 or 4 ;-)
[13:59] <jack_> akgraner: i haven't made any plans or talked to anyone about it. :O


[01:16] <milleja46> huh, that's odd the netsplit didn't happen here...
[03:12] <holstein> milleja46: o/
[03:14] <milleja46> holstein: don't see how this channel was except from the netsplit very strange
[03:18] <holstein> eh... probably just not anyone on that server or servers that went down are logged in here
[17:20] <_marx_> what's up MarkB1
[17:22] <MarkB1> _marx_: still working @ UNC S.O.M. -- may be moving on, b4 too long
[17:23] <MarkB1> if you know anyone that needs a home: http://bit.ly/1032LauraLane -- Mary Anne died on 20 April of brain cancer, so.........
[17:23] <MarkB1> it's time to move on, in N ways
[17:23] <_marx_> so to hear that
[17:23] <_marx_> sorry to hear that
[17:24] <MarkB1> almost 2 years, it was a long struggle
[17:25] <MarkB1> _marx_: I am usually in Yadkinville on Saturdays
[17:31] <MarkB1> _marx_: still carpenting and ubu'ing?
[17:44] <_marx_> yep to both
[17:44] <_marx_> although current unity doesn't like my hardware
[17:45] <_marx_> and work is kinda part time
[17:51] <MarkB1> _marx_: I am considering running Linux-Mint, when they get a 64-bit KDE release ... for 11.0x
[17:52] <MarkB1> Debian makes a great server OS - my desktop experience has been very good, but not as polished as Mint
[17:52] <MarkB1> Unity/G3 is about where KDE 4.0 was... it seems
[17:52] <_marx_> i've been trying out a few things in virtualbox may just go xubuntu
[17:52] <MarkB1> good idea (vbox)
[17:54] <MarkB1> I was really impressed w/latest linux mint -- runs on latest Thinkpad and a full-up "mmedia" Ideapad (son works for Lenovo)
[17:54] <MarkB1> except I have never liked gnome as a desktop -- xfce is better
[17:54]  * _marx_ has lust attack
[17:55] <MarkB1> I don't own those machines -- I have an older T-400, it's been great
[17:58]  * _marx_ off for a bit going to look at a tree job; results of last night's stormy weather
[18:01] <MarkB1> oh no... more cleanup at LLane
[18:01] <MarkB1> crap
[18:11] <bac> hi MarkB1
[18:17] <MarkB1> bac: howdy brad, been meaning to somehow get up w/you!