[01:11] <axw> hey thumper, have a nice break?
[01:11] <axw> anything I can help with on the maas thing?
[01:12] <thumper> axw: yeah, nice to get that mental break
[01:13] <thumper> axw: I'm trying to work out why maas is having bootstrap issues, and ec2 and openstack not
[01:14] <axw> thumper: I guess I won't be of use without maas knowledge, but give me a yell if there's something I can do.
[01:14] <thumper> sure
[01:14] <bigjools> this is a bit of a critical problem
[01:14] <thumper> bigjools: right
[01:14] <bigjools> thumper: forwarding you another email
[01:14] <thumper> bigjools: do you have any logs of a failed bootstrap?
[01:15] <bigjools> no, I am going to start poking soon
[01:15] <thumper> in particular, I want everything related to the cloud-=init
[01:15] <bigjools> did rvb's email not cover it?
[01:15] <bigjools> send you two emails
[01:16] <bigjools> sent*
[01:16] <bigjools> there's two problems I see at the moment
[01:16] <thumper> bigjools: the pastebin (http://paste.ubuntu.com/6226420/) had  two lines but I don't know what from
[01:16] <bigjools> 1. bootstrap failing as per rvb
[01:16] <bigjools> it's the QA lab environment
[01:16] <bigjools> 2. destroy-env gets its knickers in a twist
[01:17] <bigjools> I reckon the pastebin shows an invalid command line quite frankly
[01:17] <bigjools> --constraints is not getting any arg
[01:17] <thumper> locally, it gets '' if not set
[01:17] <thumper> I'm not sure how it ends up getting missed on the command line
[01:17] <thumper> I can submit a fix *right now* for the empty one
[01:18] <thumper> but I was really wanting to know why we didn't see issues on the ec2/openstack side
[01:18] <bigjools> NFI
[01:18] <thumper> yeah
[01:18] <thumper> me neither
[01:18]  * thumper bootstraps an ec2
[01:19] <bigjools> something is causing --constraints to get passed in with no arg, but I don't know what would do that
[01:19] <bigjools> passed in to jujud that is
[01:19] <thumper> hmm...
[01:19] <thumper> well,
[01:19] <thumper> when we generate the cloudinit
[01:20] <thumper> it makes" --constraints ''   " if empty
[01:20] <thumper> so
[01:20]  * thumper shrugs
[01:20] <bigjools> ok I am going to recreate locally
[01:20] <thumper> why is the version of in lp:juju-core/1.16 1.15?
[01:21] <bigjools> ?
[01:21] <bigjools> I have a sneaking suspicion that the tools are mismatched somewhere
[01:21] <thumper> nah
[01:21] <thumper> well...
[01:21] <thumper> actually
[01:23] <thumper> hmm...
[01:23] <thumper> ah...
[01:23] <thumper> nope, my fault there
[01:24]  * thumper bootstraps again
[01:24] <thumper> bigjools: got time for a hangout?
[01:24] <thumper> bigjools: is your shitty connection up to it?
[01:24] <bigjools> yeah it's ok now
[01:25] <bigjools> I finally plugged in my ADSL filter and it's better :)
[01:25] <thumper> haha
[01:25] <thumper> bigjools: hangout?
[01:25] <bigjools> yea just call me
[01:25] <thumper> kk
[01:27] <axw> thumper: re maas vs. ec2/openstack, I *suspect* it's due to https://codereview.appspot.com/13802045/patch/36001/37002
[01:27] <axw> see IsEmpty
[01:27]  * thumper looks
[01:27] <axw> and parseTags
[01:27] <axw> bit of a wild guess tho
[01:29] <axw> hmm tags= shouldn't be in the string tho, so maybe not
[01:41] <thumper> this isn't about tags, but constraints
[01:43] <axw> thumper: yeah... there's tags in constraints now. was thinking it might've affected whether the constraints are considered empty or not
[02:48] <bigjools> thumper: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1239496
[02:48] <_mup_> Bug #1239496: Packaged 1.16 juju has oauth errors talking to maas <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1239496>
[02:48] <bigjools> rather critical
[02:52] <bigjools> thumper: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6234274/
[02:52] <bigjools> wallyworld_'s fault you say?
[02:52] <wallyworld_> wot
[02:53] <bigjools> hang on
[02:54] <wallyworld_> you are trying to bootstrap using a 1.9 client?
[02:54] <bigjools> trying to work out what TF I am building
[02:54] <bigjools> I rebuilt and it said I am using 1.9
[02:55] <wallyworld_> pbkac
[02:55] <bigjools> trunk branch moved ...
[02:55] <bigjools> old checkout
[03:05] <thumper> axw: you could look at this https://codereview.appspot.com/14494054
[03:06] <axw> thumper: will do
[03:06] <thumper> hang on
[03:06] <thumper> that's bollocks
[03:06] <thumper> WTF went on there then
[03:06] <thumper> I branched from 1.16
[03:06] <thumper> and proposed to trunk
[03:09] <bigjools> ok oauth in latest core is bollixed
[03:09] <bigjools> https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1239496
[03:09] <_mup_> Bug #1239496: 1.16 juju and above has oauth errors talking to maas <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1239496>
[03:16] <davecheney> bigjools: which series are you running
[03:16] <davecheney> i wonder if this is 'compiled against an old versino of go' again
[03:16] <bigjools> saucy
[03:16] <davecheney> hmm
[03:16] <davecheney> nope, not that the
[03:16] <davecheney> then
[03:16] <thumper> davecheney: bigjools says the package version is poked
[03:17] <bigjools> package in saucy itself is bollixed
[03:17] <davecheney> bigjools: ok
[03:17] <davecheney> what if you build from the 1.16.0 tarball
[03:17] <davecheney> download it
[03:17] <davecheney> set yoru GOPATH to the root of the tar
[03:17] <davecheney> go install ./...
[03:17] <davecheney> that is the litmus test
[03:17] <bigjools> where is it again?
[03:17] <davecheney> gotta go to the 1.16 series
[03:18] <davecheney> https://launchpad.net/juju-core/1.16/1.16.0/+download/juju-core_1.16.0.tar.gz
[03:18] <bigjools> ta
[03:18] <thumper> axw: https://codereview.appspot.com/14494054/ diff is now right
[03:18] <axw> thumper: ta, reading
[03:19] <thumper> but still need to target one against 1.16
[03:19] <axw> ok
[03:19] <axw> bigjools: did you also notice that the realm is different in the working/non-working tests?
[03:19] <bigjools> axw: yes
[03:19] <bigjools> maas has a log entry saying "invalid consumer"
[03:20] <thumper> axw: is the realm used in anyway to change the header values?
[03:21] <bigjools> src/code.google.com/p/go.net/ipv6/sockopt_rfc3542_linux.go:33: too many errors
[03:21] <bigjools> nice
[03:21] <axw> thumper: not that I've noticed so far
[03:21] <axw> thumper: I mean, apart from the "realm" part in the HTTP header
[03:22] <axw> one has realm="", one has realm="MAAS+API"
[03:22] <bigjools> davecheney: still got a 401 with that tarball
[03:22] <axw> which is URL-encoded (in code it's "MAAS API")
[03:23] <bigjools> davecheney: it prompts another question - why did Mark's package work
[03:25]  * bigjools grabs food
[03:26] <davecheney> bigjools: is he using saucy ?
[03:26] <axw> thumper: lgtm
[03:26] <thumper> axw: ta
[03:47] <bigjools> davecheney: yes from what I can tell, his juju --version showed 1.16.0-saucy-amd64
[03:51] <davecheney> ok
[03:51] <davecheney> just checking
[03:51] <davecheney> in case he was running precise
[03:53] <bigjools> thumper: did you end up uploading a new binaryu for me?
[03:53] <thumper> bigjools: yes, I copied the one I build into the ~/tim dir
[03:53] <bigjools> ok ta let's try it
[03:54] <bigjools> it gets the 401 too
[03:55] <thumper> wtf?
[03:56]  * thumper goes to do some bzr magic to see the changes to the maas provider between 1.14 and 1.16
[03:56] <thumper> bigjools: could it be gomaasapi?
[03:56] <thumper> davecheney: do we know which revisions of gomaasapi were used for 1.14?
[03:57] <thumper> davecheney: we have tarballs, right?
[03:57] <davecheney> thumper: it's encoded in the release-tarball script on the 1.14 branch
[03:57] <bigjools> thumper: not sure it changed.  Oauth stuff is handled in Go's library
[03:58] <davecheney> there will also be a tag on gomaasapi
[03:58]  * thumper grabs both release tarballs
[03:58] <thumper> bigjools: wondering why sabdfl didn't hit that problem...
[03:59] <bigjools> thumper: exactly
[03:59] <bigjools> thumper: nor in the lab
[03:59] <bigjools> is it only on my box?  if so why does an old version work
[04:05] <thumper> bigjools: yes, very weird
[04:05] <thumper> nothing oauth related has changed in gomaasapi nor provider/maas in the 1.14.1 -> 1.16 change
[04:05] <thumper> we need another maas to test against
[04:05] <bigjools> I was gonna say
[04:06] <bigjools> easy for you to do that
[04:06] <bigjools> you don't need nodes
[04:06] <thumper> bigjools: how?
[04:07] <bigjools> run it from a branch or a package; all you need to do is "juju destroy-environment"
[04:07] <bigjools> and if buggered you get a 401
[04:07] <bigjools> you can even do it on canonistack
[04:07] <thumper> say what?
[04:20] <thumper> axw: and now the 1.16 branch version, with other bug references: https://codereview.appspot.com/14516056/
[04:20] <axw> thumper: just lgtm'd
[04:20] <thumper> ta
[04:20] <axw> thanks for logging the bugs
[04:21] <thumper> np
[05:05] <bigjools> juju is now an easier interface to openstack than the other command line tools
[05:07] <davecheney> :)
[05:07] <davecheney> juju deploy -n 1000 ubuntu
[05:07] <bigjools> well even for adding arbitrary instances
[05:07] <bigjools> I just use bootstrap and abuse it, or add-machine
[05:10] <bigjools> davecheney: on that note, how do I force a particular distroseries with add-machine?
[05:11] <bigjools> oh --series ... duh
[06:04] <bigjools> davecheney: so for some odd reason that oauth problem is only on my maas test box at home
[06:22] <davecheney> does oauth use the hostname of the server ?
[06:24] <bigjools> no idea
[06:24] <bigjools> the server is called "maas" so if that's causing problems I think we can all quit now
[06:25]  * davecheney packs his bags
[06:34] <bigjools> axw, davecheney: if you can think of anything, anything at all, why the Auth header would be screwy only one one system.... I would be rather grateful.
[06:39] <axw> bigjools: what's the diff in Auth header with the same juju, in the two envs?
[06:39] <bigjools> axw: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1239496
[06:39] <_mup_> Bug #1239496: 1.16 juju and above has oauth errors talking to maas <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1239496>
[06:40] <bigjools> older juju binaries work fine
[06:40] <bigjools> so something that is compiled into it, possibly from the stdlib, is behaving differently because of some environmental difference
[06:41] <axw> bigjools: do you have a capture of the auth header from an older juju?
[06:41] <bigjools> I'll get one hang on
[06:42] <bigjools> oh crap overwrote the old binary
[06:42] <bigjools> I'll grab a tarball and rebuild
[06:43] <axw> bigjools: you didn't happen to edit environments.yaml after bootstrapping, did you?
[06:43] <bigjools> nope
[06:43] <axw> k
[06:43] <axw> just asking because environments.yaml gets cached in these .jenv files now
[06:44] <bigjools> O_o
[06:44] <axw> e.g. ~/.juju/environments/maas.jenv
[06:44] <bigjools> what's that for?
[06:44] <axw> so we can auto generate stuff like admin-secret
[06:44] <axw> not sure what else tbh
[06:45] <axw> did you say you got this error when you did a destroy-environment, without first bootstrapping?
[06:45] <axw> or did I imagine that
[06:48] <bigjools> yeah
[06:48] <bigjools> an easy way to test
[06:48] <bigjools> it tries to list nodes and gets a 401
[06:48] <bigjools> but any command gets the same response
[06:52] <bigjools> axw, davecheney: so I can recreate with the 1.15 release, 1.13 does not have  the problem, let me just find the header
[06:54] <bigjools> axw: I updated the bug
[06:54] <axw> ta
[06:56] <axw> bigjools: the only thing that jumps out at me is the non-empty realm in 1.16
[06:56] <axw> both others have realm=""
[06:56] <bigjools> axw: see the latest one
[06:57] <axw> ok
[06:58] <bigjools> axw: ah sorry ignore the realm=""
[06:58] <bigjools> I posted the wrong request on the comment
[06:59] <axw> ok, no worries
[07:00] <bigjools> the ones that don't work use completely the wrong token
[07:01] <bigjools> axw: how do I clear that jenv?
[07:02] <bigjools> axw: because I can see from examining it the oauth is different ...
[07:02] <axw> bigjools: it gets created when you bootstrap
[07:02] <bigjools> so it looks like I did change the envionments.yaml at some point
[07:02] <axw> ok, that would explain it
[07:02] <bigjools> this is a bug in juju IMO - I should be able to change the credentials
[07:02] <bigjools> if my maas server was compromised, I need to change them
[07:03] <axw> yeah, I'm not sure what the supported method of doing that is
[07:04] <axw> you'd need to update the state db I think, via set-environment
[07:05] <axw> whatever's in the .jenv should just be used for connecting to the API server or state server I think.
[07:05] <bigjools> I hacked the jenv
[07:05] <bigjools> works that w3ay
[07:05] <bigjools> not ideal if you don't know about it :/
[07:05] <axw> yeah, I was banging my head against that for a while when dev/testing the null provider :)
[07:06] <axw> perhaps we should check contents of environments.yaml and .jenv, and make sure there's no changes
[07:07] <bigjools> good idea
[07:07] <axw> I'll log a new bug
[07:07] <bigjools> thank you
[07:08] <bigjools> and thanks for the help
[07:08] <axw> no worries
[07:09] <rvba> thumper-afk: I'm testing your fix for the empty constraints stuff in the lab now.
[07:10] <bigjools> I am re-creating that here as well
[07:11] <rvba> thedac: Looks like the fix for that worked (no empty --constraints any more) but jujud is still not starting properly: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6234820/
[07:12] <rvba> arg, sorry thedac, I meant thumper-afk.
[07:37] <bigjools> --upload-tools seems to cause bootstrap to break, at least on maas
[07:37] <bigjools> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6234893/
[07:39] <davecheney> bigjools:  i don't see anythig in that log that it is actually uploading anything
[07:39] <davecheney> that would be the problem
[07:39] <rvba> fwiw, I've this error (EOF) happening from time to time, sometimes when fetching the tools from aws.  But it was always transient.  Any idea?
[07:39] <bigjools> davecheney: the problem is that bootstrap has not done anything!
[07:39] <bigjools> getting that EOF error every time
[07:42]  * thumper looks at rvba's pastebin
[07:42] <rogpeppe> mornin'
[07:42] <rogpeppe> thumper: hiya
[07:42] <rvba> thumper: see my most recent email to the ML to have all the logs.
[07:42] <rvba> Morning rogpeppe.
[07:42] <thumper> rvba: ack
[07:42] <thumper> hi rogpeppe
[07:43] <rogpeppe> rvba: yo!
[07:43] <davecheney> i thin that eof indicates it ran off the end of whatever it was asking maas to list
[07:43] <bigjools> https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1239558
[07:43] <_mup_> Bug #1239558: --upload-tools failure preventing bootstrap completing <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1239558>
[07:43] <thumper> rvba: do you have access to the userdata.txt for the cloud image boot?
[07:43] <thumper> rvba: on ec2 found it in /var/cloud/... somewhere
[07:43] <thumper> sorry
[07:43] <thumper> /var/lib/cloud
[07:44] <rvba> thumper: sure, let me get that for you…
[07:44] <davecheney> /var/lib/cloud/instance/
[07:44] <davecheney> one of those is the text
[07:44] <thumper> rvba: also, log for mongod
[07:44] <thumper> rvba: the one that is the juju one
[07:45]  * thumper looks for the init script name
[07:45] <bigjools> eek, why are tools for quantal getting uploaded by default
[07:45] <rvba> /var/lib/cloud/instance/cloud-config.txt: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6234904/
[07:45] <rvba> /var/log/mongodb/ is empty (!)
[07:46]  * bigjools heading out to eat, back later
[07:46] <rvba> ps aux | grep mongo → zero
[07:46] <thumper> WTF?
[07:46] <thumper> rvba: it seems that we have jujud trying to start before mongod, that would certainly be an error :)
[07:46] <rvba> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6234911/
[07:47] <rvba> Mongodb is not installed
[07:47] <thumper> rvba: what about mongodb-server
[07:47] <rvba> 1:2.0.4-1ubuntu2.1 is installed
[07:48] <thumper> hmm..
[07:48] <thumper> that is the wrong version
[07:48] <rvba>  sudo service mongodb status → mongodb stop/waiting
[07:48] <thumper> the cloud-init has removed the stable ppa that has the mongodb-server package
[07:49] <thumper> rvba: what is the install source of the mongodb server package
[07:49] <thumper> ?
[07:50] <rvba> thumper: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6234922/
[07:50] <thumper> rvba: the juju mongo service is "juju-db"
[07:50] <rvba> arg, one sec…
[07:50] <rvba> thumper: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6234924/
[07:50] <rvba> thumper: ah ok
[07:50] <thumper> rvba: but it will be trying to start with ssl
[07:51] <thumper> and failing
[07:51] <rvba> $ sudo service juju-db status → juju-db stop/waiting
[07:51] <davecheney> rvba: did you see my reply ?
[07:51] <davecheney> Get:17 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ precise-updates/universe mongodb-clients amd64 1:2.0.4-1ubuntu2.1 [16.5 MB]
[07:51] <davecheney> Get:18 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ precise-updates/universe mongodb-server amd64 1:2.0.4-1ubuntu2.1 [4167 kB]
[07:51] <davecheney> ^ ppa:juju/stable is missing from this bootstrap node
[07:51] <davecheney> it will never bootstrap properly
[07:51] <thumper> rvba: and it seems to be logging to syslog
[07:51] <thumper> davecheney: agreed
[07:51] <rvba> davecheney: ah ok
[07:51]  * thumper looks at the 1.16 cloud-init work
[07:52] <davecheney> did someone try to remove ppa:juju/stable from our cloud-init scripts again ?
[07:52] <davecheney> i recall a change recently
[07:52] <thumper> yeah, me too
[07:52] <thumper> that was to add the cloud archive
[07:52] <thumper> I wonder if they removed the old
[07:52]  * thumper greps the bzr logs
[07:53]  * davecheney flips a table
[07:53] <davecheney> jamespage: is the mongodb update available in the cloud tools pocket ?
[07:53] <thumper> ok found the change
[07:53] <thumper> axw: ping
[07:54] <axw> thumper: yo
[07:54] <thumper> hey
[07:54] <thumper> axw: r1948 where you added cloud-tools
[07:54] <thumper> you modified the apt-repository bit for the ppa/stable
[07:55]  * axw brings up the diff
[07:55] <davecheney> thumper: axw just get the mongo depdency installed into the cloud-tools pocket
[07:55] <davecheney> that'll fix it today
[07:55] <davecheney> no release required
[07:56] <axw> last I checked, mongo was in cloud-tools
[07:56] <jamespage> davecheney, its already in the cloud-tools pocket
[07:56] <jamespage> but the cloud archive is just for 12.04
[07:56] <thumper> axw: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6234904/
[07:56] <thumper> axw: the cloud-init userdata doesn't add ppa:juju/stable
[07:56] <thumper> axw: also, it uses mongodb-server
[07:56] <thumper> not mongo
[07:56] <TheMue> morning
[07:57] <thumper> hmm...
[07:57] <thumper> mongodb-server is there
[07:58] <axw> thumper: I tested this live
[07:58] <axw> it's in  both ppa and pocket
[07:58]  * thumper wonders what was booted with maax
[07:59] <thumper> jamespage: it appears to be precise
[07:59]  * thumper ponders
[07:59] <thumper> ah...
[07:59] <thumper> here it goes
[07:59] <thumper> W: Failed to fetch http://ubuntu-cloud.archive.canonical.com/ubuntu/dists/precise-updates/cloud-tools/main/binary-amd64/Packages  403  Forbidden
[07:59] <thumper> E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
[07:59] <axw> yeah just saw that
[08:00] <jamespage> thumper, some sort of proxy blocking access?
[08:00] <axw> what's up with that?
[08:00] <thumper> rvba: can the machine see it?
[08:00]  * rvba tests.
[08:00] <thumper> jamespage: qa lab is firewalled off I think
[08:00] <thumper> rvba: you'll need to get a hole blased to that location
[08:00] <rvba> thumper: that machine can access the file all right.
[08:01] <rvba> (i.e. wget http://ubuntu-cloud.archive.canonical.com/ubuntu/dists/precise-updates/cloud-tools/main/binary-amd64/Packages works)
[08:01] <thumper> rvba: can you do an update, upgrade?
[08:01] <thumper> intermittant blockage?
[08:02] <rvba> hum, apt-get update → Failed to fetch http://ubuntu-cloud.archive.canonical.com/ubuntu/dists/precise-updates/cloud-tools/main/binary-amd64/Packages
[08:02] <thumper> yeah... that'll bit it :)
[08:02] <thumper> jamespage: do you know what has changed with the cloud-init process?
[08:02]  * rvba wonders why wget works.
[08:03] <thumper> something has changed to how it executes the scripts
[08:03] <thumper> in particular the --constraints '' used to work
[08:03] <thumper> and now it doesn't
[08:03] <thumper> the empty two single quote param was getting dropped somewhere
[08:04] <thumper> hmm...
[08:04] <thumper> or perhaps...
[08:04] <thumper> it is just how it is logged out
[08:04] <thumper> and copying that got a different problem
[08:04] <thumper> that would kinda explain it
[08:04] <jamespage> thumper, sorry - no I don't
[08:04] <rvba> Here is goes, apt is configured to use the region's squid as a proxy and that is failing to fetch things from ubuntu-cloud.archive.canonical.com.
[08:05] <thumper> jamespage: doesn't matter, I think I explained it to myself
[08:13] <rvba> thumper: okay, I fixed the proxy in the lab, let's try again to bootstrap a node…
[08:13] <rvba> (with your empty constraints fix)
[08:14] <thumper> rvba: I'd be curious to see it without my fix
[08:14] <thumper> but lets try with first :)
[08:20] <rvba> thumper: node got bootstrapped okay.
[08:22] <bigjools> I recreated it without any fix
[08:22] <thumper> rvba: \o/
[08:24] <thumper> bigjools: did you say you got one bootstrapping without the fix?
[08:24] <bigjools> thumper: I recreated the bug
[08:24] <bigjools> ie. fail
[08:24] <thumper> oh
[08:24] <bigjools> I can retry with the fix
[08:24] <thumper> bigjools: recreated the bug locally?
[08:25] <rvba> thumper: testing again without your fix, just to confirm.
[08:25] <bigjools> thumper: yes
[08:25] <thumper> bigjools: is it the same? no access to the cloud-tools ?
[08:25] <thumper> or the bad command line parsing?
[08:25] <thumper> I'm confused as to how the command-line parsing is different
[08:25] <bigjools> thumper: the command line thing with the --constraint
[08:25] <thumper> really?
[08:25] <thumper> wow
[08:26] <thumper> how does the cloud-init get run in the maas environment?
[08:26] <bigjools> something is arsed in the core
[08:26] <bigjools> it runs as part of the image
[08:26] <bigjools> takes params from kernel cmd line
[08:26] <bigjools> then downloads stuff from the metadata service
[08:26] <thumper> bigjools: no, the cloud-init data is good
[08:27] <thumper> bigjools: something has changed in how it is run
[08:31] <thumper> bigjools: for the failing bootstrap with the constraint error, can I see the cloud-init userdata file?
[08:32] <bigjools> thumper: we're on our call, hang on
[08:32] <rogpeppe> thumper: what's the problem here?
[08:33] <thumper> rogpeppe: it seems that the maas execution of the cloud-init user data was dropping an empty string param
[08:33] <thumper> rogpeppe: causing the jujud bootstrap-state command to fail
[08:33] <thumper> rogpeppe: I'm gathering data
[08:34] <thumper> rogpeppe: landed a fix for it by not passing constraints where there are none
[08:34] <rogpeppe> thumper: this doesn't happen on ec2?
[08:34] <thumper> but I'd like to know why it is happening
[08:34] <thumper> no, ec2 is fine
[08:34] <rogpeppe> thumper: hmm, odd.
[08:34] <thumper> yeah
[08:35] <rvba> thumper: the node bootstrapped okay *without* your fix this time… I'm pretty confused…  maybe the wrong juju was used somehow…
[08:35] <thumper> hmm…
[08:35] <thumper> even more curious about bigjools's cloud-init issue now
[08:35] <rogpeppe> it's a pity that set -x doesn't print quoted commands correctly
[08:36] <thumper> yeah
[08:36] <rogpeppe> thumper: still, you should see an extra space in the log
[08:36] <rogpeppe> thumper: if the command was really there
[08:37] <rogpeppe> thumper: actually, another possible fix: use --constraints=foo rather than --constraints foo
[08:37] <rogpeppe> thumper: well, it would be interesting to see if that made any difference, anyway
[08:37]  * thumper shrugs
[08:37] <thumper> slightly cleaner not to pass through nothing IMO
[08:37] <rogpeppe> thumper: and therefore where it was a quoting issue or not
[08:38]  * thumper nods
[08:38] <thumper> I'm hesitant to think it is a quoting issue
[08:38] <thumper> I'm thinking user error, but want more data :)
[08:39] <rogpeppe> thumper: why do you think the problem was a dropped empty string param?
[08:40] <thumper> rogpeppe: because I didn't read the email properly
[08:40] <thumper> :)
[08:40] <rogpeppe> thumper: heh
[08:40] <thumper> perhaps not enough coffee
[08:40] <thumper> or alcohol
[08:40] <thumper> or something
[08:41] <rogpeppe> thumper: what kind of user error do you think might have caused the problem?
[08:45] <bigjools> thumper: ok sorry I destroyed-env before you asked :(
[08:46] <thumper> :(
[08:46] <thumper> bigjools: do it again :)
[08:46] <bigjools> can do, will leave it running while I deal with kids bedtime
[08:46] <thumper> ta
[08:46] <bigjools> bloody annoying that I get that EOF when using --upload-tools
[08:47] <bigjools> can you fix that too, kthxbai
[08:47] <thumper> wallyworld_: ^^
[08:48] <bigjools> at least is there a way to stop it downloading the world's tools?
[08:48] <bigjools> I only need one set
[08:57] <wallyworld_> reading backscroll, what's the issue?
[08:58] <wallyworld_> EOF uploading tools?
[09:00] <wallyworld_> that usually means the source tools can't be found
[09:00] <wallyworld_> which means the compile failed perhaps
[09:00] <wallyworld_> i'd need to see some logs etc
[09:03] <bigjools> wallyworld_: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1239558
[09:03] <_mup_> Bug #1239558: --upload-tools failure preventing bootstrap completing <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1239558>
[09:04] <bigjools> thumper: ok where's the file you want?
[09:05] <wallyworld_> bigjools: it's not upload tools per se - it;s the maas storage provider returning an EOF when a file is requested
[09:06] <wallyworld_> sorry, i mean a list() is performed
[09:06] <wallyworld_> the expected behaviour for ec2/openstack etc is to return an empty list if there are no such files
[09:06] <wallyworld_> i guess maas is different :-(
[09:06] <bigjools> \o/
[09:07] <bigjools> maas itself returns an empty list
[09:07] <bigjools> so I guess the provider needs changing
[09:07] <wallyworld_> i'll have to look a little closer into it
[09:07] <wallyworld_> upload-tools han't changed really
[09:08] <wallyworld_> i wonder how it worked before
[09:08] <bigjools> pixie dust
[09:08] <wallyworld_> the main change is that upload-tools runs automatically if tools cannot be found
[09:08] <bigjools> and tears drawn from the cheeks of juju developers
[09:09] <wallyworld_> bigjools: you running this against your local maas?
[09:09] <bigjools> wallyworld_: Yes. I just wanted to avoid the long wait while it downloads 8 sets of tools
[09:09] <bigjools> thumper: speak to me!
[09:10] <wallyworld_> bigjools: maybe you can slip me some creds and i'll try against that too?
[09:10] <bigjools> slip you what?
[09:10] <wallyworld_> whatever creds i need to add to my env.yaml
[09:10] <wallyworld_> so i can try bootstrapping on your maas
[09:10] <bigjools> that's not going to help, you need ssh access to my server
[09:10]  * thumper looks up at bigjools
[09:11] <thumper> bigjools: the user data from /var/lib/cloud
[09:11] <bigjools> which I can give you, I'll add your ssh key in one moment once I've given thumper my load
[09:11] <thumper> I don't know exactly where it is
[09:11] <wallyworld_> bigjools: so i need to ssh in and run juju from there?
[09:12] <bigjools> wallyworld_: yep
[09:12] <wallyworld_> ok, so any debugging, i need to checkout juju src etc without my lovely ide :-(
[09:12] <bigjools> thumper: the actual data has this:
[09:12] <bigjools> --constraints '' --debug
[09:13] <thumper> right
[09:13] <bigjools> thumper: so I call cloud-init bug
[09:13] <thumper> bigjools: but cloud-init fails when running it?
[09:13] <bigjools> however I suggest you use --constraints=''
[09:13] <bigjools> thumper: yeah the '' is lost
[09:13] <bigjools> wallyworld_: fraid so
[09:13] <thumper> bigjools: I just don't set --constraints now if empty
[09:13] <wallyworld_> ok
[09:14] <bigjools> wallyworld_: ha apparently I already gave you access once before
[09:14] <wallyworld_> lookslike i never used it :-)
[09:15] <wallyworld_> bigjools: are there live tests for the maas storage provider (save me looking up the code)
[09:15] <wallyworld_> bigjools: cause i need to discover why it's giving an EOF
[09:15] <bigjools> wallyworld_: define live
[09:15] <bigjools> it's all against a crappy mock IIRC
[09:15] <wallyworld_> tests which are run against a live maas instance rather than a test double
[09:16] <bigjools> only place is the QA lab where we run stuff daily
[09:16] <wallyworld_> bollocks
[09:16] <wallyworld_> looks like i'll need to figure out how to get that all set up
[09:17] <wallyworld_> or i may just experiment on your maas
[09:17] <thumper> bigjools: can I get you to email me the cloud-init and the log output for the cloud-init?
[09:18] <bigjools> thumper: one sec
[09:23] <bigjools> thumper: logs are in your "tim" directory on my server
[09:23] <thumper> bigjools: ta
[09:23] <bigjools> thumper: I want to destroy env now, ok?
[09:23] <bigjools> log and cloud-data is there, I mean
[09:23] <thumper> bigjools: gimmie a minute
[09:26] <thumper> bigjools: you don't have a problem with --constraints either
[09:26] <thumper> bigjools: your problem is: 2013-10-14 08:58:18,294 - cc_apt_update_upgrade.py[WARNING]: Source Error: deb http://ubuntu-cloud.archive.canonical.com/ubuntu precise-updates/cloud-tools main:failed to get key from keyserver.ubuntu.com
[09:27] <thumper> bigjools: when the commandline is echoed in the log file
[09:27] <thumper> bigjools: it doesn't quote the parameters
[09:27] <thumper> bigjools: not a cloud-init bug
[09:27] <bigjools> hahaha
[09:28] <rvba> thumper: yeah, the --constraints stuff is not a bug… I thought it was because I copied the output I found in cloudinit's log.
[09:28] <thumper> rvba: bigjools copied you too
[09:29] <bigjools> thumper: so if the keyserver is down, we can't deploy ...
[09:29] <bigjools> \m/
[09:29] <thumper> bigjools: seems a bit weird huh
[09:30] <thumper> I wonder if there is a way to encode the key in cloud-init
[09:30] <bigjools> my nodes don't have internet access BTW
[09:30] <bigjools> can just talk to the proxy on the maas host
[09:31] <bigjools> thumper: that was only a warning, it's not fatal
[09:31] <bigjools> thumper: I still think the error is the --constraints
[09:31] <bigjools> because of the error text
[09:33] <bigjools> thumper: also the connection failed thing
[09:33] <thumper> bigjools: no
[09:33] <thumper> bigjools: it isn't
[09:34] <bigjools> mongo is not running
[09:34] <thumper> correct
[09:34] <thumper> because you have the wrong version of mongodb-server
[09:34] <bigjools> that seems to fairly fatal
[09:34] <thumper> so it isn't running with ssl
[09:34] <thumper> so the client can't connect
[09:34] <bigjools> hurray!
[09:34] <bigjools> why is it wrong?
[09:34] <thumper> because it didn't get the mongodb-server from the cloud-tools archive
[09:34] <bigjools> this is all installed from the archive....
[09:34] <thumper> it got the default one, which is old
[09:35] <bigjools> I thought the ssl-based on was in the ubuntu archive now?
[09:35] <bigjools> one*
[09:35] <thumper> it is, for saucy and raring
[09:35] <thumper> but not precise
[09:35] <thumper> hence the cloud-tools archive
[09:35] <thumper> which it didn't use
[09:35] <thumper> because it wasn't authorized
[09:35] <thumper> anyway
[09:35] <thumper> I have my iom-maas group access now
[09:35] <thumper> will test in the morning
[09:35] <thumper> it is 22:35 here now, and I'm going to have a cuppa
[09:36] <thumper> night all
[09:36] <bigjools> so bootstrapping on precise is basically borked
[09:37] <bigjools> rvba: ^
[09:37] <rvba> bigjools: I didn't get the logs… can you send them to me?
[09:37] <bigjools> rvba: no need - read scrollback
[09:37] <rvba> bigjools: I just got a node bootstrapped with precise in the lab.
[09:37] <bigjools> !
[09:38] <bigjools> rvba: in cloud-init-output.log, where is it downloading mongodb-server from ?
[09:38] <bigjools> rvba: I see Get:18 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ precise-updates/universe mongodb-server amd64 1:2.0.4-1ubuntu2.1 [4167 kB]
[09:40] <rvba> bigjools: No, it was downloading it from the right place (I don't have the logs handy, I'm recreating the env right now).
[09:41] <bigjools> rvba: so it means that the cloud-archive was not added to cloud-init....
[09:41] <davecheney> bigjools: what does /etc/apt.d/sources.list.d/ say ?
[09:42] <bigjools> no cloud archive
[09:42] <davecheney> well, shit
[09:43] <rvba> bigjools: can you share the cloudinit config?
[09:43] <bigjools> and I see this in cloud-data
[09:43] <davecheney> is that 'cos of the proxy issue ?
[09:43] <bigjools> apt_sources:
[09:43] <bigjools> - source: deb http://ubuntu-cloud.archive.canonical.com/ubuntu precise-updates/cloud-tools
[09:44] <bigjools> Oct 14 08:58:18 gxx4a [CLOUDINIT] cc_apt_update_upgrade.py[WARNING]: Source Error: deb http://ubuntu-cloud.archive.canonical.com/ubuntu precise-updates/cloud-tools main:failed to get key from keyserver.ubuntu.com
[09:44] <bigjools> not sure if relevant
[09:44] <davecheney> bigjools: yup
[09:45] <rvba> It is!
[09:45] <bigjools> not necessarily
[09:45] <davecheney> you need to setup the proxy to allow keyserver.ubuntu.com
[09:45] <bigjools> it can continue w/o the key
[09:45] <davecheney> it could
[09:45] <davecheney> but it doesn't
[09:45] <bigjools> but I guess you fixed this already rvba?
[09:45] <rvba> bigjools: In the lab, I fixed it yes.
[09:46] <bigjools> rvba: squid-deb-proxy?
[09:46] <rvba> bigjools: yes.
[09:46] <bigjools> diff please? :)
[09:46] <bigjools> rvba: we need to fix this in the release packaging
[09:46] <rvba> bigjools: hang on, this is only related to the lab's config.
[09:47] <rvba> bigjools: I fixed the config of the lab's proxy.
[09:48] <rvba> bigjools: I'm not talking about the proxy installed on the region, I'm talking about the proxy (installed on the lab's machine) that the region's proxy is setup to use.
[09:48] <rvba> bigjools: does that make sense.
[09:48] <rvba> bigjools: in short, my issue was completely specific to the lab's setup.
[09:48] <bigjools> rvba: we also have a proxy on the region that will disallow access to both the keyserver and the cloud archive
[09:49] <rvba> bigjools: well, apparently not because I didn't have to tweak that at all.
[09:49] <bigjools> actually the latter is ok because of ".archive.canonical.com"
[09:50]  * bigjools bootstraps again
[10:22] <axw> bigjools: is there a session agenda somewhere I can see?
[10:22] <axw> for next week
[10:22] <axw> (just saw your email)
[11:22]  * TheMue => lunch
[11:23]  * rogpeppe is now really quite damp
[11:31] <mgz> rogpeppe: you were going *on* the roof?
[11:31] <rogpeppe> mgz: just out in the rain to look at the roof with the potential contractor
[11:31] <rogpeppe> mgz: it was absolutely chucking it down
[12:43] <rogpeppe> prompted by thumper's remarks this morning, a change to environs/cloudinit tests: https://codereview.appspot.com/14665043
[12:45] <rogpeppe> mgz, TheMue, wallyworld, davecheney: ^
[12:46] <rogpeppe> mattyw: did you get any further with your issues?
[12:59] <TheMue> rogpeppe: nice one. one question: in case of multiple non-continuous lines I'm interested in, can I use patterns there?
[12:59] <rogpeppe> TheMue: i'm not sure what you mean
[13:05] <TheMue> rogpeppe: e.g. I'm expecting foo \n something uninteresting \n bar \n
[13:05] <TheMue> rogpeppe: foo and bar is interesting, but not the part in the middle
[13:05] <rogpeppe> TheMue: yes, sure, that works
[13:05] <TheMue> rogpeppe: ah, fine, expected nothing else, but wanted to get sure
[13:05] <rogpeppe> TheMue: (i tried to say that in the comment on inexactMatch, but i guess i didn't succeed)
[13:06] <rogpeppe> TheMue: the logic in the function should make it fairly clear that that works too
[13:06] <rogpeppe> TheMue: assertScriptMatch, that is
[13:07] <rogpeppe> TheMue: thanks for the review, anyway
[13:09] <TheMue> rogpeppe: yeah, seen the func and thought I mostly got it, but not in total
[13:09] <TheMue> rogpeppe: missing some commments ;)
[13:17] <rogpeppe> mgz: ping
[13:21] <rogpeppe> mgz: ping
[13:21] <mgz> rogpeppe: hey
[13:21] <rogpeppe> mgz: fancy doing some stuff on addresses?
[13:22] <mgz> rogpeppe: lets, give me five then I'll join the hangout
[13:22] <rogpeppe> mgz: tell you what, gimme 15 mins and i'll have a bite to eat first
[13:24] <mgz> rogpeppe: sure
[13:41] <mattyw> rogpeppe, same again, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6235841/ I was looking at other stuff this morning, looking again now
[13:49] <rogpeppe> mattyw: i'm just about to start on some other stuff, but it would be good to find out more about what's going on.
[13:50] <rogpeppe> mgz: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/b9aefae7756c493cf05ba17f092adfe125b6305d?authuser=1
[13:51] <mgz> rogpeppe: ta
[13:54] <rogpeppe> mattyw: perhaps tomorrow morning?
[13:55] <mattyw> rogpeppe, sounds good, I'm going to see if I can get it going on my main machine so I can carry on, but I'll leave that vm as it is and sure, let's look tomorrow morning
[13:56] <mattyw> rogpeppe, is william on holiday?
[13:56] <mgz> mattyw: for a few days, yeah
[15:52] <mattyw> rogpeppe, trying it out on my main machine I get similar errors - not exactly the same, but lots of sockets left open
[15:53] <rogpeppe> mattyw: that's, erm, good
[15:56] <mattyw> rogpeppe, it's certainly "information" but I don't know what it means :)
[17:44] <hazmat> anyone ever tried juju with gccgo?
[17:47] <rogpeppe> hazmat: i haven't tried gccgo period...
[17:47] <rogpeppe> hazmat: i'd like to know what happens :-)
[17:47] <hazmat> rogpeppe, yeah.. it seems  more than a little flakey
[17:48] <hazmat> rogpeppe, i'm trying with just a single go file, and the resulting exec is tossing up errors
[17:48] <hazmat> the question came up wrt to juju portability
[17:48] <rogpeppe> hazmat: hmm. what errors are you seeinG?
[17:48] <sidnei> hazmat: is that related to the arm thread?
[17:48] <hazmat> sidnei, not arm
[17:48] <sidnei> k
[17:49] <hazmat> rogpeppe, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6236943/
[17:50] <hazmat> looks like it got to upstream.. http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=57194
[17:50] <sidnei> hazmat: first hit on google: http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=57194
[17:50] <sidnei> aha
[17:50] <hazmat> :-)
[17:56] <hazmat> looks like it barfs on compiling juju (gccgo 4.8) http://paste.ubuntu.com/6236975/
[17:56] <hazmat> some sort of inter-package dep issue
[17:59] <rogpeppe> hazmat: how are you trying to compile juju there?
[17:59] <hazmat> are we still targeting go 1.0? or have we moved on to go1.1
[17:59] <hazmat> rogpeppe, go install -compiler=gccgo launchpad.net/juju-core/...
[17:59] <rogpeppe> hazmat: we've moved on to 1.1.2
[18:04] <rogpeppe> hazmat: where did you get your gcc from
[18:06] <hazmat> rogpeppe, saucy pkg .. apt-get install gccgo == 4.8.1
[18:06] <rogpeppe> hazmat: i think you'll need to use 4.8.2
[18:07] <hazmat> rogpeppe, it feels like it might be a tool issue.. but i'll give it a whirl
[18:07] <rogpeppe> hazmat: you'll probably need to compile from source
[18:07] <rogpeppe> hazmat: 4.8.1 doesn't support go1.1
[18:08] <hazmat> rogpeppe, sure.. but its only the inter-pkg links that barfs.. 1.1 has prelim support
[18:08] <rogpeppe> hazmat: (i just confirmed that with iant on #go-nuts)
[18:08] <hazmat> in go 4.8.1
[18:08] <hazmat> k
[18:08] <hazmat> rogpeppe, i'll give it a whirl, thanks
[18:09] <hazmat> rogpeppe, is 4.8.2 released?
[18:09] <rogpeppe> hazmat: very soon, apparently
[18:10]  * rogpeppe wonders if he's got enough resources on his laptop to build gcc
[18:16] <rogpeppe>  /me is done for the day
[18:16] <rogpeppe> g'night all
[18:17] <rogpeppe> mgz: quite a few test errors from that branch (not really surprising)
[21:01] <thumper> mramm2: do we have a chat today?
[21:01] <mramm2> I can chat on the phone or skype
[21:02] <mramm2> or on IRC
[21:02] <mramm2> but am traveling today
[21:02] <mramm2> (driving to florida -- national holiday here)
[21:02] <thumper> ah
[21:03] <thumper> well, I don't have anything too urgent I suppose
[21:03] <mramm2> I am currently not driving
[21:03] <thumper> I didn't think you would be
[21:03] <mramm2> my only big thing is making sure we are ready to go for the NYC and SF sprints
[21:03] <thumper> not on irc :)
[21:03] <mramm2> haha
[21:03]  * thumper nods
[21:04] <thumper> I've been looking into the maas issues
[21:04] <thumper> we have one clear deficiency
[21:04] <thumper> and that is if we fail during startup of the bootstrap node
[21:04] <thumper> we have no error reporting mechanism
[21:04] <thumper> like not getting the right mongodb-server
[21:04] <thumper> which means we can never status
[21:04] <thumper> nor destory
[22:30] <hazmat> davecheney, ping
[22:30] <hazmat> davecheney, trying out gccgo (per roger got 4.8.2) but the fundamental issue is the tooling seems to be broken for multi-package compilations
[22:35] <hazmat> aha.. got it
[22:35] <hazmat> needed  a pkg symlink
[22:46] <davecheney> hazmat: i don't know what you're doing
[22:46] <davecheney> but i don't think a symlink is the solution
[22:46] <davecheney> hazmat: rogpeppe related, http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2013-10/msg00085.html
[22:48] <hazmat> davecheney, i'm using that fwiw
[22:48] <davecheney> cool
[22:48] <hazmat> davecheney, gcc took forever to compile
[22:48] <hazmat> davecheney, my underlying issue was the way inter package lookups were being done
[22:49] <hazmat> for linking purposes
[22:49] <hazmat> default compilation was dropping them into $GO_HOME/lib/gccgo but lookup had an architecture suffix
[22:49] <hazmat> a simple symlinked fixed it
[22:50] <hazmat> running through the core test suite atm
[22:50] <davecheney> i rememver seeing a patch about that recently
[22:50] <hazmat> davecheney, i'm on golang trunk also re tooling
[22:51] <hazmat> getting an env to bootstrap on this might be a bit tricky.. haven't tried the static compilation options yet
[22:53] <davecheney> yup, from what I know
[22:53] <davecheney> gccgo binaries need libgo.a on the target
[22:54] <thumper> time to go hit something
[22:54]  * thumper -> gym
[22:55] <hazmat> davecheney, it can be statically linked but running into some issues with that
[22:55] <hazmat> davecheney, ala -gccgoflags '-static -static-libgo'
[22:57] <bigjools> thumper (or anyone): how do you deal with bootstrap failures on other providers then?
[22:57] <davecheney> bigjools: we don
[22:57] <davecheney> dont
[22:57] <bigjools> cloud-init's failure to add the cloud-archive and then silently install the wrong mongo is pretty shite
[22:57] <bigjools> davecheney: ok
[22:58] <davecheney> bigjools: i think this would be the 4th time it's broken
[22:58] <davecheney> i cant break for other reasons, including when cloud-init is setup properly
[22:58] <davecheney> rvba hit one with his proxy
[22:59] <davecheney> if the mongo we needed was SRU'd into precise
[22:59] <davecheney> this would solve the problem
[22:59] <bigjools> davecheney: indeed.  I've no idea why why setup won't install the cloud archive - it can't get to the keyserver for some reason.  Perhaps the apt proxy doesn't get used for that.
[23:00]  * bigjools experiments...again
[23:00] <bigjools> wallyworld_: are you using my maas server?
[23:00] <wallyworld_> not yet
[23:00] <hazmat> davecheney, bigjools we should be doing the cloud-archive by hand per cloud-archive instructions instead of using the ppa facility of cloudinit
[23:01] <hazmat> that will fail more obviously
[23:01] <hazmat> and also remove duplicate work against manual provider for the cloud archive install
[23:01] <hazmat> since its not using cloudinit
[23:02] <davecheney> 1276734
[23:02] <davecheney> lp#1276734
[23:02] <hazmat> bug 1276734
[23:02] <davecheney> no mup ?
[23:02] <hazmat> mup.. where'd you go
[23:02] <davecheney> canonistack strikes again
[23:03] <bigjools> wallyworld_: ok let me know when you might as I am doing some experimentation on it
[23:03] <wallyworld_> ok
[23:03] <kurt_> Hi Guys
[23:04] <kurt_> I discovered bug 1276734 was actually not fixed in 1.16.0 as it said it was.  I noted this in the bug tracker, but no one has responded.  What can I do about this?
[23:04] <bigjools> hazmat: it's using the apt sources directive of cloud-init - what do you mean "by hand"?
[23:05] <kurt_> Oh, I see its the topic du jour already
[23:05] <hazmat> bigjools, use the script part to install the archive
[23:07] <bigjools> add-apt-repo?
[23:19] <hazmat> bigjools, yeah
[23:19] <hazmat> bigjools, see cloud archive install instructions
[23:19] <bigjools> ok ta
[23:19] <hazmat> its not just a ppa
[23:19] <hazmat> np


[01:01] <jrwren> rick_h: that printer thing is very funny
[11:53] <snap-l> Good morning
[11:53] <mydogsnameisrudy> morning
[12:24] <rick_h> party
[12:33] <rick_h> http://hairysun.com/blog/2012/02/19/presidents-day-decorator-sale/
[12:33] <rick_h> good workd brousch who's not here
[13:43] <snap-l> I just ordered it and will at some point read it in the cloud reader.
[14:21] <brousch> i love the python community
[14:32] <snap-l> What did they do now?
[14:33] <brousch> i emailled matt harrison of "Guide to: Learning Python Decorators" about our GRPUG meeting tonight. he said he would use one of his Amazon free ebook days to make his book free today
[14:33] <brousch> i asked for a copy to give away and he made it free for everyone
[14:36] <snap-l> Yeah, that's awesome. :)
[14:36] <snap-l> Thank you. :)
[14:38] <brousch> one of the books i should just give to you. http://www.manning.com/sande/
[14:38] <brousch> since you have kids in their target audience
[14:39] <brousch> they sent 2 copies of that
[14:40] <snap-l> If you want to send it our way, that's cool. :)
[14:41] <brousch> bleh, wrong tab
[14:41] <brousch> but i would be happy to get you in touch with my contact at manning
[14:42] <brousch> she was very helpful
[14:42] <snap-l> brousch: That would be great
[14:42] <snap-l> I think we should get back into the user group panhandling for books. :)
[14:43] <brousch> manning, packt, o'reilly, apress
[14:43]  * snap-l bought a bare Squeezebox Classic last night
[14:43] <snap-l> made a pretty low-ball offer, and the guy accepted it.
[14:43] <snap-l> Whic worries me. :)
[14:44] <snap-l> But my goal is to get rick_h to buy a Squeezebox by the end of the talk.
[14:46] <snap-l> http://www.logitech.com/en-us/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/7934 <- Think I could get rick_h to get this by the end of the talk? :)
[14:47] <brousch> i rarely listen to music over speakers at home
[14:48] <brousch> headphones ftw
[14:48] <snap-l> brousch: Got you covered.
[14:48] <snap-l> Even on your laptop
[14:48] <brousch> but my google music is available on my laptop or in my pocket
[14:49] <snap-l> This will do FLAC
[14:49] <snap-l> and internet radio
[14:49] <brousch> i killed all my flac for mp3 320k
[14:49] <snap-l> brousch: WHY?!?!
[14:49] <brousch> google music was flaky on flac
[14:49] <brousch> and i'm no audiophile ;)
[14:49] <snap-l> brousch: I see that as a deficiency of Google Music.
[14:50] <brousch> indeed
[14:51] <rick_h> what talk is this?
[14:51] <snap-l> I'll be presenting the Squeezebox at MUG
[14:51] <snap-l> in March
[14:53] <rick_h> dude, a 1200 squeezebox?
[14:53] <snap-l> That's the audiophile version. :)
[14:53] <rick_h> hah
[14:54] <snap-l> http://www.logitech.com/en-us/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/squeezebox-touch
[14:54] <snap-l> That's the more earth-bound version
[14:54] <snap-l> plus, I'll have coupon codes for the Logitech Store.
[14:56] <rick_h> better be a big coupon code!
[14:57] <snap-l> 35%
[15:30] <jrwren> squeezebox?
[15:31] <jrwren> way too much $
[15:31] <snap-l> jrwren: Not really. They've come down in price.
[15:31] <snap-l> and I can show you how to get set up for free. :)
[15:31] <snap-l> (well, for the cost of hardware)
[15:32] <jrwren> how?
[15:32] <jrwren> err... i'm still not clear on what it is.
[15:32] <snap-l> squeezeslave or softsqueeze
[15:32] <jrwren> is it just a network adapter
[15:32] <snap-l> No, it's a whole music ecosystem.
[15:32] <jrwren> or does it include amp/speakers
[15:33] <snap-l> Handles internet radio, music service, etc
[15:33] <jrwren> ok, squeezebox controller for iphone looks good.
[15:33] <snap-l> jrwren: You can do both
[15:33] <snap-l> There's the Radio, which is like a kitchen radio
[15:33] <snap-l> and the Touch, which can hook to an amp
[15:34] <snap-l> and the Transporter, which can eat money in pursuit of audiophile perfection
[15:34] <jrwren> lol
[15:34] <snap-l> But there's also software clients
[15:34] <jrwren> interesting.
[15:34] <jrwren> i'd love to run one on a low power something.
[15:34] <snap-l> Squeezeplay is their SqueezeOS with a Lua loader
[15:34] <jrwren> something maybe 1W that I could leave on all the time.
[15:35] <jrwren> hrm... or boots fast so I can 1 button on and be playing music in a few seconds.
[15:35] <snap-l> That's the Radio
[15:35] <snap-l> or the Touch (with speakers)
[15:35] <snap-l> I'm using the Squeezeslave client to play my music over SSH tunnel
[15:35] <jrwren> ha! awesome.
[15:36] <snap-l> so I have access to my entire library.
[15:36] <jrwren> how fast is it at scrubbing your library metadata?
[15:36] <snap-l> and because I don't own lots of bandwidth, I have it set up to transcode it to 128Kbps
[15:36] <snap-l> It's pretty quick
[15:36] <snap-l> Saves it all in sqlite with nightly checks
[15:36] <jrwren> becuase I've tried the same thing with VPN and itunes and it does not work.
[15:36]  * jrwren is checking out squeezeslave
[15:37] <jrwren> is there a last.fm plugin for squeezeslave? :)
[15:37] <snap-l> http://code.google.com/p/squeezeslave/
[15:37] <snap-l> yes
[15:37] <jrwren> oh, slave is the client.
[15:37] <snap-l> It runs on the server
[15:37] <jrwren> and you run squeeze server on your server?
[15:37] <snap-l> Yep
[15:37] <jrwren> so this is like MPD that actually works?
[15:37] <snap-l> Which supports multiple clients
[15:37] <snap-l> and it's OSS
[15:37] <snap-l> (written in Perl)
[15:37] <snap-l> _AND_ they document the protocol.
[15:38] <jrwren> are you familiar with MPD?
[15:38] <jrwren> maybe MPD didn't do the streaming.
[15:38] <jrwren> so this is MPD with streaming.
[15:38] <jrwren> sounds great.
[15:39] <snap-l> I'm not sure if I used something like MPD in the past
[15:39] <jrwren> my friend built an entire streaming internet website thing on mpd and icecast
[15:39] <snap-l> No, I didn't use it. I used Firefly (or whatever the itunes thingie was)
[15:39] <snap-l> jrwren: Nice!
[15:39] <jrwren> he built it all together. sounds like squeeze takes care of this for ya
[15:39] <krondor> I haven't really looked at audio sync stuff yet in my htpc build.  I'll need to check this out a bit.
[15:40] <jrwren> krondor: doesn't sound like this is syncing. this is streaming
[15:40] <rick_h> jrwren: did you ever see anything with the bookie tag control in FF?
[15:40] <krondor> I see there's work on squeezebox xbmc plugin so looks promising to me
[15:40] <jrwren> rick_h: i did see it once more, but didn't screenshot it.
[15:40] <snap-l> jrwren: You can sunc several players together
[15:40] <snap-l> though the software clients tend to get out of sync
[15:40] <rick_h> jrwren: so it's not 100% of the time?
[15:40] <jrwren> syncing several players?  like multiple player points playing same audio in sync?
[15:40] <snap-l> jrwren: Yep
[15:40] <jrwren> rick_h: no, it was 100% of the time, i just don't use bookie that often :)
[15:41] <jrwren> zomg, synced player would be hot.
[15:41] <snap-l> Going to check to see if the hardware players do this better.
[15:41] <rick_h> jrwren: ok, gotcha
[15:41] <jrwren> rick_h: i moved to FF aurora and now the issue is gone.
[15:42] <rick_h> jrwren: ah ok
[15:43] <rick_h> sorry, just hacking on the mobile/responsive ui and figured I'd check while I'm ui hacking
[15:43] <snap-l> krondor: Yeah, that XMBC plugin appears stalled from what I can tell
[15:44] <krondor> you're looking at the old one I think, this is the one I was looking at; http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93544
[15:45] <krondor> this is the other xbmc multiroom/sync plugin I was looking at before.  http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?t=78431
[15:45] <snap-l> Ah, this is a new one
[15:45] <CrusaderAD> Anyone here familiar with setting up SSH on ubuntu server?
[15:45] <krondor> but it's not exactly light, so maybe squeezebox is more practical for just music.
[15:45] <snap-l> CrusaderAD: A bit. :)
[15:46] <snap-l> krondor: Yeah, Squeezebox offloads a lot onto the server, which is perfect for how I listen to music
[15:47] <CrusaderAD> I've setp openssh-server and I can hit it from inside the LAN just fine... when I'm outside (I can test it from my droid :) ) it says connection refused. I'm pretty sure I have my firewall all setup to allow port 22, I have the same rules setup for FTP and that works just fine. Am I missing something?
[15:48] <snap-l> CrusaderAD: IF you can hit on your LAN, then there's some firewall rule preventing access to it
[15:48] <brousch> do you have a nat device in between your computer and the internet?
[15:50] <brousch> you'll need to forward some port on your internet router to port 22 on your computer
[15:51] <CrusaderAD> I was hoping it was some simple setting on the server...  I know all is open on the internet router... gotta be the sonicwall.
[15:52] <krondor> CrusaderAD:  if you're in front of the server on your LAN and trying to hit it over 3G with your droid you could see if the packet is even getting there with tcpdump.
[15:52] <brousch> it's not enough to be open on the router, if it uses nat it has to have specific ports forwarded
[15:53] <krondor> CrusaderAD:  tcpdump -i (yourinterface) port 22
[15:58] <CrusaderAD> krondor: I'll check that out
[16:00] <CrusaderAD> thanks for the suggestions, it's gotta be the sonicwall
[16:07] <snap-l> Man, I <3 Flesh Field's Reflect The Enemy
[16:07] <snap-l> Got me lip-syncing and drumming
[16:08] <rick_h> jrwren: you've got an iphone?
[16:11] <jrwren> yes, i have an iphone
[16:11] <rick_h> jrwren: can you load up https://bmark.us and let me know if it works?
[16:11] <rick_h> can enter a tag to filter and such?
[16:12] <rick_h> it's not overly pretty, but hopefully the responsive css kicks in and the tag control stuff works
[16:12] <jrwren> CrusaderAD: for test you could turn off ftp and tell ssh to listen on port21 and try it. although sonicwall might be doing deeper inspection and block that too :(
[16:12] <jrwren> rick_h: ipad ok?
[16:13] <jrwren> or do you specifically want iphone dimensions?
[16:13] <rick_h> jrwren: ipad is cool I guess
[16:13] <rick_h> it'll probably not get the mobile css media query
[16:13] <jrwren> i'll try both
[16:14] <rick_h> it's set to shrink down at 650px ish
[16:14] <rick_h> I've not messed with anything apple-ish since the JS drive UI stuff has gone in though
[16:15] <jrwren> i actually get no response when searching for a tag on ipad.
[16:15] <jrwren> same search on aurora works great.
[16:15] <rick_h> really, interesting
[16:15] <jrwren> oh.... its a case thing maybe.
[16:15] <jrwren> yup, nm.
[16:15]  * rick_h checks, didn't think tags had case
[16:15] <jrwren> i wonder if there is a case hint you can give it ipad textbox
[16:16] <rick_h> that's just a bug. I should lowercase your input on check. I lowercase all tags I think
[16:16] <jrwren> well, ipad defaults to first letter uppercase and Python gave zero results when python gave results.
[16:16] <rick_h> ah, gotcha. Yea, so I'm not lowering on completion suggest. I'll add a bug for that
[16:17] <jrwren> on phone the lack of go button makes it unclear that the input box is even there, so if no one has never seen it before they might not know the search box is there.
[16:17] <rick_h> yea, but I wanted to give it full width. I've got some polish to do there. Add some margins/padding and such
[16:17] <jrwren> everything else is pretty great.
[16:17] <jrwren> not sure if there are mediaquery options for size whe keyboard is on the screen.
[16:17] <rick_h> I might need to figure out how to add in some default text somehow, but it'll be a pita
[16:18] <rick_h> no, I can't change your keyboard
[16:18] <jrwren> its still a little wide for when phone is in portrait
[16:18] <rick_h> what is wide?
[16:18] <jrwren> i have to scroll left and right
[16:18] <jrwren> by maybe 50%
[16:19] <rick_h> oh hmm, maybe I don't have the viewport things right. It should just be 100% zoom I'd have thoght
[16:19] <rick_h> (does on my android)
[16:19] <jrwren> i'd think too.
[16:19] <rick_h> ok, well I'll have to find someone with some apple gear to play with some time. It's a first baby step
[16:19] <rick_h> thanks for the testing and the feedback onthe tag control. I knew that was going to be a pain point
[16:20] <jrwren> no prob
[16:20] <brousch> totally borked on my droid
[16:21] <rick_h> brousch: make sure to clear cache if you've ever been before
[16:21] <rick_h> mobile devices don't like to give up their cached js/css
[16:21] <brousch> i tried clear cache
[16:21] <rick_h> k, then you've probably got what _stink_ has, he says his 2.2 devices hates me to
[16:21] <rick_h> I'll check it out this weekend when they come by for the sprint
[16:22] <_stink_> brousch: you have what i have
[16:22] <_stink_> sorry, i am contagious
[16:22] <rick_h> hah
[16:23] <jrwren> raspberrypi would make a sweet squeezebox client :)
[16:23] <snap-l> jrwren: I thought about that.
[16:25] <jrwren> snap-l: if only it had 1/8" out.  I think only audio is in HDMI
[16:25] <jrwren> snap-l: pogoplug might be cool too http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1152174
[16:27] <jrwren> holy crap, there is a glut of these things. http://serverfault.com/questions/152869/low-energy-low-cost-24-7-hardware-linux-box
[16:27] <snap-l> Funny thing is the Squeezebox Radio literally has an option to enable SSH
[16:27] <snap-l> password 1234
[16:28] <snap-l> It's a busy box ARM system with a LUA loader
[16:28] <snap-l> all of the config files are in Lua
[16:28] <jrwren> cool.
[16:28] <snap-l> http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SqueezePlay
[16:28] <jrwren> must be a lua web server too?
[16:28] <snap-l> No, server software is Perl CGI
[16:29] <jrwren> ugh.
[16:29] <jrwren> fastcgi at least?
[16:29] <snap-l> Well, consider this device used to be the SLIMp3
[16:30] <snap-l> jrwren: It runs it's own web server.
[16:30] <snap-l> You don't have to run apache to run it. :)
[16:32] <jrwren> oh!
[16:32] <jrwren> that isn't perl CGI then.
[16:32] <jrwren> that is a perl web server.
[16:32] <jrwren> rawk.
[16:35] <snap-l> Yeah
[16:36] <snap-l> Sorry, stuck in the 1990s. :)
[16:36] <snap-l> jrwren: YOu should come out to MUG next month. :)
[16:37] <jrwren> march?
[16:37] <jrwren> first tues?
[16:37] <jrwren> what is the location? i recall it not being farmingon library anymore.
[16:38] <rick_h> it's back there again
[16:38] <jrwren> oh, ok.
[16:39] <snap-l> Second Tuesday of the month
[16:39] <snap-l> So, March 13th
[16:39] <jrwren> i put it on calendar. we shall see.
[16:40] <rick_h> ah crap, I'll be out of town
[16:41] <snap-l> rick_h: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
[16:42] <rick_h> snap-l: pycon waits for no man
[16:42] <brousch> snap-l: you fool. you dare compete with pycon?!
[16:42]  * snap-l plans a private demo at rick_h's bookie sprint
[16:43]  * snap-l wonders if there's a lucrative career in door-to-door music system sales.
[16:48] <PainBank> anyone here done a conversion of a .swf to an html app?  decompiling and converting and such...
[16:51] <brousch> sounds like a buttload of pain
[16:54] <PainBank> meh, there are some tools out there, that on the surface appear to make it easy to do.
[17:12] <snap-l> PainBank: I think they promise more than they deliver
[17:12] <snap-l> much like nash and flash compatibility. :)
[17:58] <snap-l> http://blog.convore.com/post/17951919109/convore-shutting-down-april-1st
[17:59] <snap-l> IN other words, just use IRC and be done with it.
[18:00] <rick_h> heh, poor convore
[18:00] <rick_h> at least they'll go strong through pycon
[18:00] <snap-l> rick_h: Wonder what the new hotness will be for Pycon. :)
[18:00] <rick_h> heh, grove.io eh? take 2
[18:01] <snap-l> Yeah, I don't see that being particularly useful
[18:03] <rick_h> hah, my coffee shop addition paid off. I made the local newspaper it seems
[18:03] <snap-l> Best not use that 15 minutes of fame all in one place.
[18:04] <brousch> i suggested convore to jesse noller for something. i wonder if that's why he responded 'lol'
[18:05] <brousch> i'm sad to see convore shut down. what they did was basically one of my ideas i never got around to.
[18:06] <snap-l> brousch: There's always room for making IRC easier to use
[18:06] <snap-l> much like AOL made newsgroups easier to use.
[18:07] <snap-l> and by extension essentially killed off newsgroups. :)
[18:07] <brousch> not irc. having a forum dedicated to conferences where the point is to continue session discussions after the talk itself
[18:07] <snap-l> I feel remiss in not participating in the last two Humble Bundles
[18:08] <snap-l> but I don't have an Android Phone (yet)
[18:08] <snap-l> and I don't know what they're producing for the Mojam bundle
[18:09] <snap-l> http://fixtstore.com/news/?p=3785
[18:10] <snap-l> Something tells me they're looking for college kids.
[18:44] <nullspace> ouch, 30k I wasn't even paid that little out of college
[18:45] <nullspace> hmm bad example, I jus tmade myself out to be a crappy coder....
[18:47] <rick_h> https://twitter.com/#!/niallohiggins/status/171664967647494144 whoa
[18:50] <snap-l> rick_h: It's only a matter of time
[18:50] <snap-l> Apache is unfortunately on the way out from the Web Server market
[18:50] <rick_h> crazy
[18:50] <nullspace> wtf
[18:54] <jrwren> rediculous.
[18:54] <jrwren> apache is kind and will remain such.
[18:54] <jrwren> ask any shared webhost.
[18:54] <snap-l> kind and slow
[18:55] <jrwren> not really.
[18:55] <nullspace> snap-l: site sources please
[18:55] <snap-l> nginx handles static content like a bat out of hell
[18:55] <snap-l> openmetalcast.com
[18:55] <snap-l> nginx
[18:55] <nullspace> yeah too bad static pages are well so 1999
[18:55] <snap-l> Sourceforge uses nginx
[18:55] <jrwren> you need to watch the node.js video that i posted on friday.
[18:55] <snap-l> nullspace: Save for jpgs and mp3 and ogg files, sure, they're 1999
[18:56] <jrwren> the event loop b.s. is basically exaclty node.js
[18:56] <jrwren> there is a reason nginx is so fast, it doesn't do as much
[18:56] <brousch> and CSS
[18:56] <jrwren> a whole lot of hosters actually use all those extra features of apache.
[18:56] <snap-l> jrwren: You're correct
[18:57] <snap-l> however, there is a huge speed increase, and no mod-rewrite BS to be had with using nginx
[18:57] <snap-l> that covers a good portion of usecases
[18:57] <jrwren> yes, but only a tiny interesting portion
[18:57] <snap-l> If you're trying to do mod_auth with LDAP and kerberos, you're better off with Apache
[18:57] <jrwren> i'd love to see the bmark where someone takes apache, removes all the modules and compares with nginx.
[18:58] <snap-l> jrwren: Tiny? Larger than you think. :)
[18:58] <jrwren> in both mpm_fork and mpm_thread.
[18:58] <jrwren> oh, and BTW, there is no reason someone can't write mpm_eventloop
[18:58] <jrwren> and then apache basically is nginx :p
[18:58] <jrwren> oh look, it already exists.  http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/event.html
[18:58] <rick_h> anyone recall off the top of their head how to extract a tarball into a specified directory?
[18:59] <jrwren> its experiemental, just like nginx :)
[18:59] <rick_h> my man page goggles are missing it
[18:59] <jrwren> rick_h: -C dir ?
[18:59] <nullspace> I'm pretty sure that's what you want
[18:59] <snap-l> jrwren: All I know is I have decent performance and understandable rules for my nginx setup
[19:00] <jrwren> i won't knock nginx at all. it is sweet.
[19:00] <snap-l> and it took me all of an afternoon to convert
[19:00] <jrwren> but i won't knock apache either, it is sweet. And I won't say nginx is any better than apache. it is just different.
[19:00] <snap-l> fair enough
[19:01] <brousch> i'm sure once nginx is feature-complete with apache it will be just as slow and bloated
[19:01] <snap-l> brousch: I doubt it
[19:01] <nullspace> I have yet to run into apache being my bottle neck, ever....
[19:02] <snap-l> nullspace: What's the largest site you've ever deployed?
[19:02] <jrwren> http://nbonvin.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/apache-vs-nginx-vs-varnish-vs-gwan/  looks like gwan i WAY better at static content
[19:02] <nullspace> snap-l: what metric would you like?
[19:02] <snap-l> nullspace: Whatever you can provide. :)
[19:02] <nullspace> but currently what I'm working on is the biggest thing I've ever touched
[19:03]  * brousch suppresses dirty responses
[19:03] <snap-l> Varnish + Nginx is quite a killer combo
[19:03] <snap-l> but varnish has it's own compromises.
[19:04] <rick_h> nullspace: apache sacrifices on memory, it's a memory hog with apps at scale
[19:04] <rick_h> nginx is more cpu bound, and less featureful
[19:04] <rick_h> it's a compromise regardless of what you choose, pick you poison
[19:04] <snap-l> rick_h is no fun.
[19:04] <rick_h> :P
[19:04] <snap-l> ;)
[19:09] <nullspace> 300K+ LOC
[19:09] <nullspace> and it's growing
[19:10] <rick_h> LOC == /dev/null
[19:10] <nullspace> so snap-l asks for what ever metric and you cut the first one I give
[19:10] <rick_h> geeze, this dicussion is a repeat of every bad dev conversation ever if it's gotten down to LoC. have fun: http://www.ohloh.net/
[19:10] <rick_h> LoC doens't mean anything to hosting
[19:11] <rick_h> you show me a coverage chart that shows you hit every LoC during a web request and I guess we can chat on that
[19:11] <jrwren> that would mean you are doign it wrong :)
[19:11] <rick_h> when it gets to the web server we're talking memory footprint, io time, number of workers,
[19:12] <snap-l> number of users
[19:12] <nullspace> 2k users
[19:12] <jrwren> concurrent requests.
[19:12] <rick_h> meh, what's a user? hits to winzip.exe?
[19:12] <snap-l> rick_h: IN my case, yes. :)
[19:12] <nullspace> rick_h: ok so what do you want?
[19:12] <rick_h> or launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs :)
[19:12] <jrwren> can you have 1024+ open files(sockets)
[19:12] <rick_h> snap-l: then in that case varnish is doing all your work, nginx/apache doesn't matter :)
[19:12] <jrwren> so once you raise your file handle limit ot 65k how close to that can you get?
[19:12] <snap-l> *snort*
[19:13] <nullspace> I really don't feel like I'm learning anything, just a lot of trolling going on
[19:13] <jrwren> lol
[19:13] <jrwren> go brad!
[19:13] <jrwren> nice call
[19:13] <rick_h> nullspace: well web appliaction measuring fall along a ton of different limits/bottlenecks (potential bottlenecks)
[19:13] <rick_h> and you end up scaling up/out depending on the limitation your app hits
[19:13] <jrwren> he left
[19:13] <rick_h> did he? crap missed it
[19:14] <rick_h> oh well, wasn't trying to troll, but damn LoC was never a useful metric of anything *sigh*
[19:14] <rick_h> even in LP land someone wants us to use LoC to measure "maint. overhead of changes"
[19:14] <rick_h> makes me cry a little inside
[19:15] <snap-l> LoC is about as useful a measure as furlongs per fortnight
[19:16] <jrwren> less so.
[19:16] <jrwren> because furlongs per fortnight is a valid velocity.
[19:16] <jrwren> LoC isn't valid for anything other than LoC
[19:18] <rick_h> at least in our case it's looking at code by looking at code
[19:18] <jrwren> snap-l: apt-cache search squeezebox says no :(  why no?
[19:18] <rick_h> saying that LoC is a server measure is a giant screwball
[19:18] <snap-l> jrwren: Have to download it from Logitech
[19:19] <jrwren> the server?
[19:19] <jrwren> i thought the linux server was open source
[19:20] <jrwren> the wiki says it is.
[19:20] <jrwren> why has no one packaged it? total bummer
[19:21] <snap-l> It is packaged.
[19:21] <snap-l> one sc
[19:21] <snap-l> sec
[19:23] <snap-l> http://www.mysqueezebox.com/download
[19:23] <jrwren> why is the deb twice the size as the mac/windows package?
[19:24] <brousch> because it's twice as awesome
[19:24] <jrwren> lol
[19:24] <snap-l> brousch: Beat me to it. :)
[19:28] <brousch> because i am twice as awesome!
[19:30] <nullspace> you guys still going at it?
[19:30] <snap-l> Nah, we're done for now.
[19:32] <nullspace> rick_h: I'm really unsure how to test our applications limits but it's a damn sight faster than what it's replacing
[19:33] <rick_h> nullspace: understand. response time is a good metric
[19:34] <brousch> is there a slashdot simulator?
[19:34] <nullspace> it's private site witha  login
[19:34] <rick_h> http://code.google.com/p/multi-mechanize/
[19:34] <brousch> that just means you need your own private cloud to run the simulator ;)
[19:34] <rick_h> sorry http://testutils.org/multi-mechanize/
[19:35] <rick_h> nullspace: yea, but you can always fake the POST request to the server with the right headers and follow the redirect for example
[19:35] <rick_h> anyway, lots of ways of load testing
[19:36] <nullspace> 8.56s, 24 requests 313.6KB  < - from firebird
[19:36] <snap-l> Could also try throwing ab at it.
[19:36] <nullspace> firebug
[19:36] <rick_h> ouch, 9s?
[19:37] <nullspace> yeah but that's loading pretty much the entire site
[19:40] <nullspace> 3.19 - JS, 2.2 for images, 1.48s - HTML
[19:40] <brousch> must be a big dashboard thing?
[19:40] <snap-l> How much of that is just getting things ready to be loaded?
[19:40] <nullspace> more like a big input system for a giant calculator
[19:41] <nullspace> snap-l: not sure where to find that for you
[19:43] <snap-l> That would be the number of seconds before your first bit of data comes back
[19:44] <nullspace> looks like 292ms
[19:45] <nullspace> 680ms for DNS, 514ms for connecting
[19:46] <snap-l> That DNS seems high to me
[19:46] <nullspace> goign through a VPN out to texas
[19:47] <snap-l> Oh, so the load times are going to be pretty skewed
[19:50] <nullspace> well me going out to texas and back to me is 2.69s, but that's lacking the user privilage code
[19:51] <nullspace> 45ms waiting
[19:51] <snap-l> Yeah, so 9s is probably more like 5s
[19:51] <brousch> ouch
[19:53] <nullspace> we did make a consciouse effrot to make the initial load the slowest but moving from page to page is almost instant
[19:54] <brousch> a reasonable compromise for a long-use-time program
[20:07] <nullspace> I haven't looked at tuning our tomcat server configs as I think out biggest gains will be made elseware
[20:13] <nullspace> basic things like gz-ing html, js and css & lowering the frequency or garbage collection are already running
[20:21] <nullspace> any suggestions
[20:22] <brousch> a dns server closer to your users?
[20:23] <brousch> actually, i guess that would be cut out the vps
[20:23] <brousch> vpn
[20:24] <jrwren> 680ms for DNS is insane. that should be <1ms :p
[20:25] <jrwren> vpn is evil.
[20:28] <nullspace> websense proxy is evil
[20:29] <nullspace> the network monkey who is learning networking as he is building it evil
[20:39] <brousch> ut oh. has greg-g defected?  https://twitter.com/#!/g_gerg/status/171694275942285313
[20:40] <greg-g> brousch: I have Ubuntu on my x220, don't worry :)
[20:40]  * greg-g came in here after posting that ready to respond to backlash ;)
[20:41] <brousch> whew
[20:55] <snap-l> heh
[20:57] <jrwren> who cares? I only use linux as server.
[20:59] <brousch> oh don't worry. you're on the list
[21:03] <snap-l> Jesus, recruiters are stupid.
[21:04] <snap-l> Got another call from the recruiter re: the "Python Web Developer" position (Which has no details other than the Python Web Developer heading"
[21:05] <snap-l> ASked them for more info so I can pass it along to other folks
[21:05] <snap-l> Next time, I block 'em. :)
[21:09] <snap-l> I should be grateful that people still call me, but dammit if it doesn't bug me when they can't take a hint.
[21:14] <snap-l> In any event, if someone wants to do Python Web Development in the Detroit area for around 60K - 80K, have I got a hot lead for you. :)
[21:18] <krondor> nullspace:  if you don't need dnssec, amazon dns looks really nice for proximity based responses to users.
[21:18] <krondor> says me never having used it :)
[21:19] <nullspace> turns out I was double VPNing out, it's a last resort in a script in the event both VPN servers appear to be down
[21:20] <nullspace> short story is my VPN timed out twice very quickly and I defaulted to my work mates internet connection, the net monkey is pulling on the cables again
[21:21] <nullspace> this is the only place where I've dropping the net connection is a vaild wayt o fix exchange
[21:21] <krondor> not true, exchange hates network transitions (wired/wireless when undocking).  Always have to kill it end that task.
[21:22] <krondor> Also VPN to non-VPN transitions w/ OutlookAnywhere... but most of these probs are because it's exchange and MAPI is evil.
[21:23] <nullspace> I think I've confused you, usually our net engineer restarts kills the network because someone is complaingin about not getting email in some remote part of the world, though being one of only two people with presistant connections to the net we are teh only ones that complaing when the net drops
[21:24] <nullspace> my email is fine
[21:25] <nullspace> that or he insitutes something funky on ISA, yes we still have an ISA firewall
[21:26] <nullspace> though I've heard some the issues might relate to the barcuda having hardware issues
[21:26] <krondor> ah yes, I thought you meant your issues changing networks with Exchange, not Exchange siezing up until he 'restarts' the network lol.
[21:27] <krondor> I keep having to beat the MS guys down with sticks to keep ISA out of here.  Every new MS box they get is like, with ISA I can do X to Sharepoint.
[21:27] <nullspace> I think I threw up in my mouth a little
[21:29] <krondor> I just scare them away with things like 'hey look at this neat plone thing.  Do you think it's like Sharepoint?'
[21:29] <nullspace> though I think the guys here could use a sharepoint server, constantly fighting to write to network shared files
[21:29] <krondor> Google Docs FTW I say
[21:30] <nullspace> if we could locallly run google docs then maybe
[21:31] <nullspace> sensetive documents, not that we put in any real work in securing things
[21:32] <krondor> box.net + google docs integration, but it's not cheap.
[21:33] <snap-l> Blazeix: BTW: XOnotic 0.5 is released, and it's awesome.
[21:33] <snap-l> Was playing it a little over the weekend.
[21:33] <snap-l> Feels like they tightened up the bits that annoyed me about Nexuiz
[21:34] <snap-l> also doesn't feel like jackrabbits on acid.
[21:34] <Blazeix> ah, cool, i'll take a look
[21:41] <nullspace> hmm I think the 248.5KB of JS on the server could use a bit of a trim
[21:45] <nullspace> on the plus side yslow gives the our site a score of 92
[21:47] <nullspace> snap-l: 5.43s (onload: 4.9s)
[21:47] <nullspace> yeah the JS is most of the wait time
[21:54] <snap-l> That's not surprising
[21:54] <snap-l> Might want to cut that up into separate files
[21:54] <krondor> Newegg was genius to make an android app... I couldn't resist http://bit.ly/ybgnsY
[21:55] <snap-l> krondor: Nice!
[21:56] <krondor> they have an 8 bay enclosure too, but the way HD prices are right now...
[21:57] <jrwren> snap-l: I think he means running the onload event
[21:59] <snap-l> jrwren: Oh, right.
[21:59] <nullspace> not all of the JS is running on load but I'd say a big chunk is