[14:22] <frederickjh> I have a program that is using settings in /etc/security/limits.d/<program>.conf to give it real time priorities. This is not working on boot with upstart but restarting the service after boot allows it to star with real time priorities. I see in the list of started processes a polkitd that is started by dbus. Is the polkitd what needs to be running before my job starts?  I do not see a upstart job for this so how do I make it wait til
[20:16] <[diablo]> evening
[20:16] <[diablo]> anyone running Ubuntu 10.04 here please?
[20:25] <[diablo]> ah, forget it, just answered my own untold question :-)


[15:30] <sarnold> good morning
[15:31] <cpaelzer> hey
[15:31] <eslerm_> greetings from 34k" over the dakotas o/
[15:31] <cpaelzer> noble is completely time_t'ed - let us see how that looks in the reports
[15:31] <cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
[15:31] <meetingology> Meeting started at 15:31:53 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
[15:31] <meetingology> Available commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick
[15:31] <cpaelzer> Ping for MIR meeting - didrocks joalif slyon sarnold cpaelzer jamespage ( eslerm dviererbe )
[15:32] <cpaelzer> #topic current component mismatches
[15:32] <cpaelzer> Mission: Identify required actions and spread the load among the teams
[15:32] <cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
[15:32] <cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg
[15:32] <cpaelzer> trace-cmd is an ongoing effort
[15:32] <cpaelzer> we have reviewed some of them, no new action
[15:32] <cpaelzer> #topic New MIRs
[15:32] <cpaelzer> Mission: ensure to assign all incoming reviews for fast processing
[15:32] <cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
[15:32] <cpaelzer> hmm, two new ones here
[15:33] <cpaelzer> first: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tree/+bug/2056099
[15:33] -ubottu:#ubuntu-meeting- Launchpad bug 2056099 in tree (Ubuntu) "[MIR] tree" [Undecided, New]
[15:33] <cpaelzer> reading the rational before we try to assign ...
[15:34] <cpaelzer> hmm - reading "this has been discussed with the Foundations team"
[15:34] <cpaelzer> slyon isn't around
[15:34] <cpaelzer> What I see makes me think could it not do that while staying in universe?
[15:35] <cpaelzer> it won't be seeded, nor will it be advertised much outside of the mentioned SDK
[15:35] <ahresse> Hello, I posted the MIR about tree . It is my first MIR so feel free to ask me questions here.
[15:35] <cpaelzer> hi ahresse, welcome
[15:35] <cpaelzer> try to answer the above I guess
[15:35] <cpaelzer> it is mostly me trying to get if the motivation to do that is valid
[15:35] <joalif> o/
[15:36] <cpaelzer> hi joalif (and sarnold and eslerm_)
[15:36] <cpaelzer> JFTR
[15:36] <cpaelzer> ahresse: what I mean is that you've written "their user experience on their Ubuntu based SDK images"
[15:36] <cpaelzer> which is fine, but why does it have to be in main for that
[15:37] <cpaelzer> what is the value it provides to the rest of Ubuntu, since you said "enerally useful for a large part of our user base using the command-line" over it being what it is right now
[15:37] <ahresse> I guess we (Canonical) concluded to support these packages officially in our partneship contract
[15:37] <ahresse> And getting these into main is the way to validate this
[15:38] <cpaelzer> If (IIFF) foundations is truly happy to own this, I'm ok then. This will go to some -supported seed and not be pulled in anywhere.
[15:38] <cpaelzer> since slyon isn't around and do_ko extra busy with time_t64 I'd wait until next week for them to say something instead of assigning it right away
[15:39] <eslerm_> doesn't the contract validate support?
[15:39] <cpaelzer> oh eslerm_ do not get me started "support" is an undefined term to begin with
[15:39] <cpaelzer> it means 105 things to 52 different people
[15:39] <sarnold> it could just be that getting updates for this from esm to sdk users might be A Real Challenge
[15:39] <cpaelzer> ahresse: you could speed that up or avoid the same delay to happen again if you could ask Fundations management to comment on the bug agreeing that they will own it and that they consider this a good idea too
[15:40] <cpaelzer> ahresse: this isn't negelcting your request, but we need to validate you are not secretly putting that onto their agenda :-)
[15:40] <cpaelzer> and I'd not feel well for someon in the MIR team to review before I feel sure this will happen
[15:40] <cpaelzer> does that work for you ahresse?
[15:40] <ahresse> What I noted from my meeting from Fundation was: Lukasz: low risk, not so critical. Should go with a MIR. No strong objection from Foundation.
[15:41] <cpaelzer> I totally believe you, but "No strong objection from Foundation" does not yet say "I'm ok that our team will take care for this for a decade" - although to admit this one seems low effort indeed
[15:42] <cpaelzer> still I need to hold everything against sort of the same bar to pass
[15:42] <cpaelzer> and we had others suggesting other owning teams ... guess how those ended up
[15:42] <cpaelzer> @MIR folks - how do you think about adding a rule to the template that enforced an ack from the to be owning team?
[15:42] <cpaelzer> I feel we almost have discussed that ...
[15:43] <eslerm_> ++1
[15:43] <sarnold> that's probably a good idea, we've had other community folks try to get teams to support (sorry) packages that they weren't interested in
[15:43] <joalif> +1
[15:44] <cpaelzer> ok, 1 sec
[15:45] <cpaelzer> created https://github.com/canonical/ubuntu-mir/issues/52
[15:45] -ubottu:#ubuntu-meeting- Issue 52 in canonical/ubuntu-mir "Suggested owner should provide a confirmation from the owning team" [Open]
[15:45] <ahresse> TBH, this is my first MIR attempt so I will just follow what you propose... Let's just summerize it on the associated LP bug at the end.
[15:46] <cpaelzer> ok, on tree we will recheck next week with foundations people around
[15:46] <cpaelzer> again ahresse you can help with asking them to please comment and confirm on the bug
[15:46] <cpaelzer> no problem ahresse, we are friendly and try to get your case resolved
[15:46] <cpaelzer> excuse us for immediately starting with an extra whoop to jump through
[15:46] <sarnold> ahresse: to be clear, this is a lovely mir :)
[15:46] <cpaelzer> indeed sarnold
[15:46] <cpaelzer> the rest LGTM in a glance
[15:47] <cpaelzer> just in the 360 and FF week resources are scarce
[15:47] <cpaelzer> hence I'm hoolding back and want to ensure ownership before spending any
[15:47] <cpaelzer> next to look at is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pemmican/+bug/2055434
[15:47] -ubottu:#ubuntu-meeting- Launchpad bug 2055434 in pemmican (Ubuntu) "[MIR] pemmican" [Undecided, New]
[15:47] <cpaelzer> and ahresse - thanks for being here for discussion
[15:47] <cpaelzer> that helps to speed up things - so it is highly appreciated
[15:48] <cpaelzer> in regard to the former discussion foundations team asking to own it themselve
[15:48] <cpaelzer> also a pattern that we had before - special Pi bits for the Pi images that need to be in main for that reason
[15:48] <cpaelzer> joalif: do you have any capacity to consider reviewing this (I'm drowned in 360 efforts)?
[15:48] <waveform> sorry :)
[15:49] <joalif> yup
[15:49] <cpaelzer> hu, why excusing waveform
[15:49] <cpaelzer> all good
[15:49] <cpaelzer> thank you so much joalif
[15:49] <cpaelzer> assigning
[15:49] <cpaelzer> #topic Process/Documentation improvements
[15:49] <cpaelzer> Mission: Review pending process/documentation pull-requests or issues
[15:49] <cpaelzer> #link https://github.com/canonical/ubuntu-mir/pulls
[15:49] <cpaelzer> #link https://github.com/canonical/ubuntu-mir/issues
[15:49] <cpaelzer> my issue of 4 minutes ago
[15:50] <cpaelzer> and eslerm with cargo vendor
[15:50] <cpaelzer> reading ...
[15:50] <cpaelzer> https://github.com/canonical/ubuntu-mir/issues/51
[15:50] -ubottu:#ubuntu-meeting- Issue 51 in canonical/ubuntu-mir "cargo vendor adds unnecessary crates" [Open]
[15:51] <cpaelzer> yeah, we need to have the toolchain folks comment
[15:51] <cpaelzer> and until then probably leave a note in the MIR policies
[15:51] <cpaelzer> WDYT?
[15:51] <eslerm_> toolchains commented in the linked jira task
[15:51] <cpaelzer> opening
[15:51] <sarnold> I understand there's around 80megs of windows crates in the authd packages
[15:52] <cpaelzer> so what can we do for now, other than expecting anyone touching it to manually do the culling to those that matters?
[15:52] <sarnold> should we ask for those to be deleted by hand before release? shipping that to all mirrors for ten more years makes me sad :(
[15:52] <cpaelzer> we can not say "no rust until it solved" not can we "all that is listed needs to be fully reviewed" :-/
[15:53] <cpaelzer> sarnold: with "by hand" you mean d/rules removing them along the source build and build?
[15:53] <sarnold> cpaelzer: exactly
[15:54] <cpaelzer> posting on the case
[15:54] <cpaelzer> but I'm unsure who to wait/block/gate/assign
[15:54] <cpaelzer> so what will happen now, and by whom ... ?
[15:56] <cpaelzer> updated to ask didrocks what he thinks
[15:56] <eslerm_> waiting for more discussion might be a good place to wait for next week
[15:56] <cpaelzer> that was triggered by a desktop package right?
[15:56] <eslerm_> correct
[15:56] <cpaelzer> authd - yeah
[15:56] <cpaelzer> let us see what becomes of this
[15:56] <cpaelzer> interesting for sure
[15:56] <cpaelzer> rushing the last steps, 4 minutes to go
[15:56] <cpaelzer> #topic MIR related Security Review Queue
[15:56] <cpaelzer> Mission: Check on progress, do deadlines seem doable?
[15:56] <cpaelzer> Some clients can only work with one, some with the other escaping - the URLs point to the same place.
[15:56] <cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security/+bugs?field.searchtext=%5BMIR%5D&assignee_option=choose&field.assignee=ubuntu-security&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
[15:57] <cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security/+bugs?field.searchtext=[MIR]&assignee_option=choose&field.assignee=ubuntu-security&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
[15:57] <cpaelzer> Internal link
[15:57] <cpaelzer> - ensure your teams items are prioritized among each other as you'd expect
[15:57] <cpaelzer> - ensure community requests do not get stomped by teams calling for favors too much
[15:57] <cpaelzer> #link https://warthogs.atlassian.net/jira/software/c/projects/SEC/boards/594
[15:57] <eslerm_> security mirs are progressing :)
[15:57] <eslerm_> we need a volunteer for a perl package, we'll ifnd one
[15:57] <cpaelzer> make them found eslerm_! :-)
[15:57] <eslerm_> bpf mirs are going smoothly
[15:58] <cpaelzer> I guess there is not much more to say here
[15:58] <cpaelzer> any other around bpf (like trace and such) showing any signs of trouble?
[15:58] <eslerm_> yes
[15:58] <cpaelzer> oh
[15:58] <eslerm_> I mention it in the spec
[15:59] <eslerm_> the binaries from these packages are numerous (which is fine) and duplicate each others function
[15:59] <eslerm_> but, those working on the spec can figure this out
[15:59] <cpaelzer> yeah I've seen that if you mean libbpf-tools and bpt-tools IIRC
[15:59] <cpaelzer> but they are from the same source - so just one effort to maintain
[15:59] <eslerm_> we don't want ALL of these binaries to be installed by default most likely
[15:59] <cpaelzer> and we'd not install all
[15:59] <cpaelzer> yeah
[15:59] <cpaelzer> ack on not installing all
[16:00] <cpaelzer> TBH only the smaller ones built with less dependencies would be my suggestions (libbpf-tools)
[16:00] <eslerm_> and bpftrace, it dupes bpt-tools too
[16:00] <cpaelzer> oh
[16:00] <cpaelzer> unexpected
[16:00] <cpaelzer> thanks for raising
[16:00] <cpaelzer> rushing on then ...
[16:00] <eslerm_> in bpftrace's cases, I'd make the binaries examples since that is really what they are
[16:00] <eslerm_> examples of writing bpfc-tools with bpftrace
[16:00] <cpaelzer> agreed, that is what I considered them
[16:00] <cpaelzer> useful examples though
[16:00] <eslerm_> very
[16:00] <cpaelzer> #topic Any other business?
[16:00] <cpaelzer> not from me
[16:01] <joalif> none
[16:01] <eslerm_> none
[16:01] <sarnold> none here
[16:01] <cpaelzer> thanks
[16:01] <cpaelzer> sorry for the rush
[16:01] <cpaelzer> two more meetings now ...
[16:01] <cpaelzer> o/
[16:01] <eslerm_> o/
[16:01] <joalif> thanks cpaelzer, all :)
[16:01] <sarnold> thanks cpaelzer, all :)
[16:01] <cpaelzer> #endmeeting
[16:01] <meetingology> Meeting ended at 16:01:34 UTC.  Minutes at https://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2024/ubuntu-meeting.2024-03-05-15.31.moin.txt


[10:40] <reon> anybody know if there is a menu editor in the works from upstream?
[10:42] <beardygnome> reon: I don't know, but have you tried alacarte?
[10:46] <reon> beardygnome, I made the mistake of just installing it with all it's recommends and now I can't get rid of them, sigh!
[14:32] <beardygnome> i have switched my lightdm greeter from the unity one to the lightdm-gtk-greeter and now i can't login
[14:32] <beardygnome> it just loops back to the greeter screen
[14:32] <beardygnome> any ideas how to debug this?
[15:57] <GridCube> ochosi, you here?
[16:00] <ochosi> GridCube: i'm leaving in fact
[16:00] <GridCube> oh
[16:00] <ochosi> but shoot
[16:00] <GridCube> well im seeing a lot of broken icons
[16:00] <ochosi> to the worst i'll read the backlog and answer tomorrow
[16:00] <ochosi> where?
[16:01] <GridCube> http://ompldr.org/vYXU0dQ/pavu.png
[16:01] <GridCube> example
[16:01] <GridCube> see the >Clear chat...
[16:01] <ochosi> yeah, guess that specific headphone-icon is missing in elementary
[16:01] <GridCube> im getting those on empathy as well
[16:01] <GridCube> on the + and - symbols
[16:02] <ochosi> what you can try is extend the "Inherit=" line in elementary-xubuntu's index.theme file
[16:02] <ochosi> i can look into this in more depth some other time, not today
[16:02] <GridCube> http://imagebin.org/179323
[16:02] <ochosi> the question is in which icon themes those icons exist
[16:03] <ochosi> probably "gnome"
[16:03] <GridCube> oh, probably yes
[16:03] <ochosi> elementary decided to drop quite a few icons
[16:03] <GridCube> :/ oh
[16:03] <ochosi> and they're focussing on their own OS/distro atm, so i guess at some point we'll have to start looking for something new
[16:03] <GridCube> well i wanted to let you know
[16:03] <GridCube> i see
[16:04] <ochosi> well, xchat is obviously using non-standard "+"-" icons
[16:04] <ochosi> otherwise they would appear, i'm rather sure
[16:04] <knome> oh, ochosi is speaking
[16:04] <knome> ;)
[16:04] <ochosi> but anyway, more time to speak about that another day
[16:04] <ochosi> see you everyone!
[16:04] <GridCube> :)
[16:04] <GridCube> see you
[16:04] <knome> haha
[16:04] <knome> yeah, i thought that was too good to be true.
[16:17] <knome> bah. i wonder where we are with canonical IS
[16:17] <knome> pleia2??
[16:49] <neighborlee> Hi ;),,quick question; Is xubuntu ( read a review which stated this but that was a yearish ago ) still mono free and is that meant to be forwarded onto future releases ? ;)
[16:51] <knome> neighborlee, afaik it is. it's not a definitive goal to keep xubuntu mono-free, but since mono would bring up many dependencies and stuff, it's highly possible that it will not get included
[16:52] <neighborlee> I need more than 'possible'
[16:52] <neighborlee> I need to know its purposely gone
[16:52] <neighborlee> mono is dangerous. as clearly stated by richard stalman of the FSF
[16:53] <neighborlee> thats my reason basically
[16:53] <neighborlee> and why I was curious
[16:53] <neighborlee> :)))
[16:53] <neighborlee> othewise id have to goto fedora
[16:54] <neighborlee> sorry to seem anal about it.but I have to know its meant to be gone on purpose ;)
[16:54] <GridCube> its not
[16:54] <madnick> I doubt a moral stand is taken on the subject
[16:55] <GridCube> if for some reason it is thinked to be nesesary it could get in, but its not probable
[16:55] <Unit193> Simple, sudo apt-get purge mono*   fixed
[16:55] <knome> neighborlee, the only way to make sure your distro doesn't ever have mono is to create and maintain your own distro
[16:56] <neighborlee> fedora already has
[16:56] <neighborlee> they agree apparently with richard stallman of FSF ;)
[16:56] <neighborlee> I was hoping xubuntu did too ;)
[16:56] <neighborlee> hence the question :(
[16:57] <madnick> Fedora even have tutorials on how to properly use Mono :P
[16:57] <neighborlee> your missing the point my friend
[16:57] <neighborlee> I meant ,,mono or any mono app, not incuded by default
[16:57] <neighborlee> I dont care what someone installs later ;)
[16:57] <knome> it's not a matter of heart for us. if you want to affect/make sure mono is not included, feel free to join the developer community and act
[16:57] <neighborlee> heart ?
[16:58] <neighborlee> im not talking about heart..
[16:58] <neighborlee> Im referencing facts
[16:58] <neighborlee> you dont know who richard stallman , of the FSF is ?
[16:58] <knome> i do know, but that's got nothing to do with this.
[16:58] <neighborlee> of course it does
[16:58] <neighborlee> he specificallay says to 'avoid mono'
[16:58] <neighborlee> pretty clear ;)
[16:59] <GridCube> he says many things
[16:59] <neighborlee> but anyway..this isn't a arguement..its fact
[16:59] <knome> he is entitled to is opinion
[16:59] <neighborlee> he is a foss leader
[16:59] <neighborlee> faik ;)
[16:59] <knome> so?
[16:59]  * GridCube shrugs
[16:59] <knome> he doesn't lead xubuntu
[16:59] <neighborlee> I surmised that ;)
[16:59] <neighborlee> ok thx for info
[17:00] <knome> no problem.
[17:00] <GridCube> my country has the biggest worldwide system for giving free computers to school students, stallman said it was EVEEL because it came whit dual boot linux/7
[17:00] <GridCube> that simple thing says many things about stallman
[17:02] <neighborlee> excuse me ?
[17:02] <neighborlee> GridCube, ie ?
[17:03] <knome> neighborlee, GridCube: #xubuntu-offtopic please, if you want to continue
[17:03] <neighborlee> :)
[17:29] <knome> madnick, good job there getting the fellow silent :P
[17:30] <madnick> haha
[17:31]  * micahg would've said that the Ubuntu Tech Board has approved of mono, so any derivative is free to include it (it's in the repositories...)
[17:32] <Unit193> For the record, this is the second derivative he's bothered
[17:33] <micahg> Unit193: if it gets trollish, you could mention it to the IRC council
[17:33] <knome> Unit193, ugh. if you don't mind, tell that in -ops-team
[17:33] <knome> micahg, council too, but -ops(-team) first, much faster response
[17:33] <knome> micahg, and people can do something for the issue too
[17:34] <Unit193> knome: Do I have to? They are scary...
[17:35] <Unit193> micahg: No worse than here/offtopic
[17:35] <knome> Unit193, they aren't :)
[17:40] <micahg> knome: sorry, that's what I meant (no caffeine yet today)
[17:40] <knome> micahg, hehe, np
[17:41] <Unit193> knome , micahg: Thanks
[17:42] <knome> Unit193, np :)
[17:42] <knome> Unit193, thank you
[17:46] <Unit193> I searched, it was 2011-09-27
[17:46] <knome> the previous attack?
[17:48] <Unit193> Not as highkey afaict
[17:52] <knome> huh?
[17:54] <Unit193> Worse here, but I'll read it again :P
[20:24] <marcus_> hello
[20:25] <marcus_> some1 here?
[20:25] <madnick> Yes
[20:26] <marcus_> Maybe you can help me with a problem I got with xubuntu 11.10
[20:26] <marcus_> ?
[20:26] <madnick> #xubuntu is for support, there are more people to help there :)
[20:27] <marcus_> but if no one answers I need to look somewhere else for help :-)
[20:27] <madnick> hehe
[20:27] <Unit193> Next on the list would be either #ubuntu or #ubuntu-beginners
[20:27] <madnick> (i was not in #xubuntu, sorry)
[20:29] <marcus_> okay so the problem is this: if I try to mount or open an audio-cd thunar tells me: could not mount audio-cd and place could not be mounted
[20:29] <marcus_> in ubuntu 10.10 this is possible
[20:32] <marcus_> got no clue ?
[20:33] <Unit193> Well, I hardly ever use CDs, but remote filesystems give an error then they work
[20:34] <madnick> well, whats the filesystem of an audio cd?
[20:34] <madnick> bug 159527
[20:34] <madnick> sorry
[20:34] <madnick> bug 159627
[20:35] <marcus_> dont know what filesystem an audio-cd has
[20:35] <marcus_> okay I will read this launchpad thind
[20:35] <marcus_> -d+g
[20:36] <madnick> It was fixed in natty it says
[20:36] <madnick> But
[20:36] <madnick> I cannot test it myself
[20:37] <madnick> (don't have any audio cd's)
[20:38] <marcus_> you can burn one and then try it :-)
[20:39] <Unit193> Oneiric is current (Hard to think)
[20:39] <marcus_> to me it seems it is not fixed
[20:40] <mr_pouit> it's fixed in thunar >= 1.2, when you have the needed gvfs modules installed
[20:41] <mr_pouit> (probably gvfs-backends)
[20:41] <marcus_> gvfs do I get them via synaptics packet manager ?
[20:44] <marcus_> yes I got it
[20:44] <marcus_> it works
[20:45] <marcus_> thank you


[15:44] <cid420> morning yall
[15:44] <belkinsa> Morning cid420
[15:45] <cid420> hey bro how you been
[15:45] <belkinsa> I been fine, how about you?
[15:45] <cid420> doing pretty good, waiting on some early christmas presents i just ordered
[15:46] <cid420> getting 3tb hard drive
[15:48] <cid420> belkinsa: y ou run any servers?
[15:48] <belkinsa> No, I don't.
[15:48] <cid420> should try it sometime there pretty fun setting up :)
[15:49] <belkinsa> Eh, I tired one for a MUD once but I never got the MUD all written up.
[15:49] <cid420> MUD?!?!? that would be cool setting up
[15:51] <cid420> if i find it on the web and getting it to install would you be interested on playing MUD
[15:53] <belkinsa> Yeah, but it's a lot of work, not coding but working on the world and objects of that world.
[15:53] <belkinsa> It's all text-based.
[15:53] <cid420> there is a MUD called Mordor in the universe
[15:53] <belkinsa> I play Armageddon MUD
[15:54] <cid420> if you want you can help me find it and give me the information I will try it out.
[15:55] <cid420> this is what is possible setting up i will show you the link  http://www.andreasen.org/newmud/
[15:55] <jenni> [ New MUD codebases ] - https://j.mp/1bQd14T
[15:56] <belkinsa> http://www.armageddon.org/ It's a roleplay enforced one
[15:56] <jenni> [ ArmageddonMUD Home Page ] - https://j.mp/1bQd00D
[15:56] <belkinsa> Oh, I tired to use CoffeeMUD codebase for mine
[15:56] <belkinsa> But I think I never left off with the worldbuilding
[15:58] <cid420> if you want i will get it installed and can setup the permissions for you work on it? or i can mess around with it to get it to work
[16:00] <belkinsa> Naw, no thanks.  I have other things to do.  Besides, the world was meant to be for a novel.
[16:01] <cid420> I will mess with it, if i can get it to work right the website has information on scripting and other sort of information on it.
[16:03] <cid420> this one is setup through linux desktop and since i run all servers it would be impossible to run it with out a desktop. sorry
[16:04] <belkinsa> Don't care, you are the one who wants to play with it.
[16:04] <cid420> Ouch ok i was being nice
[16:04] <belkinsa> Oh, sorry.  Why did I say that.
[16:05] <cid420> it was a thought on maybe getting it to work for both of us
[16:05] <belkinsa> Eh, someone else is wanting me to help him get a distro going.
[16:05] <cid420> oh ok


[00:59] <axw> wallyworld: I've just left a comment on your PR about a major issue, but still going through it
[00:59] <wallyworld> ok, ty
[01:01] <wallyworld> fair point
[01:01] <wallyworld> veebers: that unit test that failed on CI works fine for me - not interactive auth failures
[01:01] <wallyworld> *no
[01:02] <wallyworld> i've got an up-to-date zesty
[01:10] <wallyworld> axw: part of the issue is that passing in collections to watch from the apiserver facade breaks layering elsewhere. the collections are not exposed at that layer. i'll have to try and think of something else
[01:11] <axw> wallyworld: you don't need to specify collections, just concepts
[01:11] <axw> wallyworld: we still talk about application offers above the state layer do we not?
[01:12] <axw> wallyworld: I'm not suggesting you pass in the collection names, but rather pass in a struct/bool saying whether or not to include "application offers"
[01:12] <axw> wallyworld: and that should be decided at the apiserver, where we normally do the permission checking
[01:12] <wallyworld> we do. it comes down to how to map that. does the struct has a single bool - watch everything except offers. or do all the things to watch need to be enumerated etc. i liked the perm approach because it was sort of role based
[01:13] <wallyworld> i could start out with a bool i guess
[01:13] <axw> wallyworld: my point is that we don't do role checking in the state layer. *that* is a layer violation
[01:13] <wallyworld> that is true
[01:13] <axw> wallyworld: IMO, a struct with a single bool just for application offers. everything else is on by default and can't be controlled, until/unless we need to do that
[01:14] <wallyworld> but there's no easy way to map the concept of a role to a what do i do
[01:14] <wallyworld> that works for now
[01:45] <veebers> wallyworld: let me dig around, I'll have more questions for you in a bit :-)
[01:46] <wallyworld> ok
[01:58] <menn0> thumper: ping?
[01:58] <thumper> pong
[01:59] <menn0> thumper: actually, switching to onyx channel
[02:15] <wallyworld> veebers: will be there soon, just in another meeting
[02:16] <veebers> wallyworld: ack
[02:31] <wallyworld> burton-aus: test!
[03:23] <burton-aus> wallyworld Got it.
[05:55] <thumper> hmm...
[05:55] <thumper> if I have an api connection to a controller...
[05:55] <thumper> how do I download some tools...
[06:03] <thumper> ugh...
[06:03]  * thumper will look Monday
[06:03] <thumper> have a good weekend everyone
[06:22] <wallyworld> jam: unless i am wrong, it looks like our bot runs unit tests with mongo 2.4.9
[06:23] <wallyworld> it seems i am getting a landing error due to a 2.4.9 vs 3.2 thing. i need to re-test locally with 2.4.9 to be sure
[06:23] <wallyworld> did you think we were still using 2.4.9?
[06:24] <wallyworld> but i can't get the tests to fail locally (incl with --race). but the bot is not happy with some inernal mongo error (or so it seems)
[08:32] <jam> wallyworld: yes, everything on trusty uses 2.4
[08:32] <jam> wallyworld: so you have to support both
[08:32] <jam> wallyworld: as in, juju bootstrap --series=trusty *also* uses 2.4 (from what I understood)
[12:04] <rogpeppe> a small fix to juju/utils to help it pass juju tests: https://github.com/juju/utils/pull/275
[12:05] <rogpeppe> wpk: you might want to take a look at this ^
[12:05] <anastasiamac> rogpeppe: lgtm
[12:05] <rogpeppe> anastasiamac: ta!
[12:05] <rogpeppe> anastasiamac: hi, BTW :)
[12:05] <anastasiamac> rogpeppe: thnx for following it up :) hi \o/
[12:06] <rogpeppe> anastasiamac: only trying to fix tests in juju-core that were broken when i updated utils...
[12:16] <SimonKLB> i guess it is by design that you're not able to access relation data from "relation B" while youre in the context of "relation A" - but does anyone here have a viable solution to get around that?
[12:16] <SimonKLB> in this case both relation A and B is related on the same interface (if that matters at all)
[12:18] <SimonKLB> say you have 3 different data-sources and you want to grab the connection information of all 3 when configuring your charmed application
[12:25] <jrwren> SimonKLB: AFAIK you can always access any relation data. What are you seeing which suggests that you cannot?
[12:26] <SimonKLB> "error: permission denied"
[12:27] <jrwren> from which command?
[12:28] <SimonKLB> relation-get -r [id]
[12:28] <jrwren> that is very surprising. I've never seen that. Maybe the relation does not actually exist?
[12:29] <jrwren> does it show in relation-list -r [id] ?
[12:30] <jrwren> is the [id] used one that is related to the unit for which the hook is running? does it show in relation-ids?
[12:32] <SimonKLB> jrwren: yes i grabbed it from relation-ods
[12:32] <SimonKLB> ids*
[12:33] <SimonKLB> relation-list -r [id] works fine
[12:33] <SimonKLB> shows the correct charm/unit-no
[12:34] <SimonKLB> jrwren: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24426504/
[12:36] <jrwren> that has got to be a bug or something very strange going on. It worked with one id but not another. What version of juju is this?
[12:36] <jrwren> why does your relation-get not require a unit id?
[12:37] <SimonKLB> jrwren: could it be that it gets it from an env?
[12:37] <SimonKLB> juju version: 2.2-beta2-xenial-amd64
[12:37] <jrwren> SimonKLB: not afaik, but this is the edge of my juju knowledge.
[12:38] <SimonKLB> echo $JUJU_REMOTE_UNIT
[12:38] <SimonKLB> charmscaler-metric-cpu/0
[12:38] <SimonKLB> that is probably it
[12:38] <wpk> rogpeppe: ok, I'll fix the PR for juju/juju change
[12:38] <jrwren> ah. I see. interesting.
[12:39] <wpk> rogpeppe: it didn't feel right tbh
[12:39] <rogpeppe> wpk: i've changed it
[12:39] <rogpeppe> wpk: another change was needed in juju-core because of the ordering change - that's landing in https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/7254
[12:39] <jrwren> SimonKLB: yup, beyond my knowledge.
[12:40] <SimonKLB> that's ok! anyone else?
[12:44] <jrwren> SimonKLB: one last thought, is it a container-scoped relation?
[12:46] <SimonKLB> jrwren: nope, global
[12:46] <jrwren> SimonKLB: ok, thanks. It shall be interesting to learn of the resolution.
[12:47] <SimonKLB> me too :D
[12:47] <wpk> rogpeppe: I mean for https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/7162
[12:47] <wpk> rogpeppe: I'm waiting with this merge as it can really break stuff
[12:48] <wpk> rogpeppe: (as it makes proxy settings truly global, at least on Xenial)
[12:50] <rogpeppe> wpk: i just made a comment on that PR
[12:53] <wpk> rogpeppe: thanks
[16:49] <bdx> I'm wondering how/why machine spaces constraints are all of the sudden being passed through to the lxd containers on them ..... https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju/+bug/1684143/comments/10
[16:49] <mup> Bug #1684143: applications deployed to lxd on aws instances failing <juju:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1684143>
[16:50] <bdx> I hadn't experienced this up until this week .... all prvious lxd deploys to instances in the past had never experienced this issue
[16:51] <bdx> I have lxd on top of aws instance instance deploys that I sent off all last week, and for all of time prior to hitting this this week
[19:55] <balloons> hml, externalreality, someone want to have a glance at https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/7257?
[23:14] <mup> Bug #1685382 opened: max_user_instances in inotify runs low on juju-db units - version 1.25.6 <canonical-bootstack> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1685382>


[00:00] <sarnold> aikidouke: hmm, some of these probably don't exist in the main archive..  pianohat for example isn't on my rpi3b+'s indexes (eoan)
[00:00] <Patrick_NI> Why must I needlessly torture myself
[00:00] <Patrick_NI> This is hilarious. Now to track down an XP iso
[00:00] <Patrick_NI> Database maintenance
[00:00] <Patrick_NI> X-D
[00:01] <aikidouke> universe maybe? I usually do ubuntu sources/ppa's on the desktop so will poke around a bit on this...
[00:02] <sarnold> Patrick_NI: bugger, the links at the bottom of https://rufus.ie/ for XP and vista are dead..
[00:02] <Patrick_NI> Internet archive to the rescue
[00:02] <sarnold> badsektur: snap is a new packaging format that bundles together dependencies, to make it easier to support new software on old operatnig systems, provide some sandboxing, etc
[00:02] <sarnold> yay
[00:03] <aikidouke> this looks promising;
[00:03] <aikidouke> Get:6 http://archive.canonical.com/ubuntu eoan/partner arm64 Packages [548 B]
[00:04] <sarnold> http://archive.canonical.com/ubuntu/dists/eoan/partner/binary-arm64/ ~500 bytes long ..
[00:04] <sarnold> don't get your hopes up :)
[00:05] <aikidouke> I have very small hopes ;) it doesnt take much to make them fly and doesn't hurt too bad when they crash and burn lol
[00:05] <sarnold> lol
[00:06] <aikidouke> thanks for having a look sarnold, I'm off to play. have a good one
[00:10] <madprops> what kind of updates are done on each lts point? http://i.imgur.com/nnSUfwL.png
[00:11] <sarnold> madprops: click onthe 'changes' links to find out in detail
[00:20] <k_sze> Is badblocks' non-destructive read-write test any less accurate than the normal destructive read-write test?
[00:21] <k_sze> Or is it just slower because it has to first read, then write, then read again?
[00:32] <sarnold> k_sze: that's a very good question; I've always assumed read-only is less reliable, as it feels entirely plausible to me that a specific sector's existing data may be readable, but unable to write into that sector again..
[00:37] <Jeffrey_f> Offtopic:  Can someone answer what I know will be a simple windows batch copy question?  To keep it on topic, I can go to PM
[01:46] <scaredysquirrel> ,v kde-plasma-desktop
[05:15] <DarwinElf> some days ago I had to boot Kubuntu 18.04.3 recovery from my installation media.  I tried the menu option to start networking.  I write to you with tears in my eyes as it wouldn't work as there's no /etc/init.d/networking .  What package do I need to (re)install to have that file there?
[07:28] <jeffmr> is the fingerprint reader in 19 compatible with any more devices than fingerprint-gui in 18?
[07:30] <oerheks> no, see the complete list in https://launchpad.net/~fingerprint/+archive/ubuntu/fingerprint-gui and https://fprint.freedesktop.org/supported-devices.html
[07:30] <oerheks> same IDs i guess, up2ddate
[07:31] <jeffmr> thanks.
[08:44] <coldpress59> hi, I understand that python-dotenv can load envvars from `.env`. Is there any way to have a `.env` file inside a python package module?
[08:46] <coldpress59> or is the user unable to both configure `.env` and run the script as a module, at the same time?
[08:54] <coldpress59> hmm, imported variables are not transferable between module files
[10:57] <jmadero> hi all, I picked up a new machine and what previously worked in my fstab no longer works. I suspect that it's getting to mount commands before network is connected so my nfs drives aren't mounting. My fstab line is: <IP_ADDRESS>:/volume1/Media /mnt/Synology/Volume1 nfs auto,nofail,noatime,nolock,intr,tcp,actimeo=1800 0 0
[10:57] <jmadero> suggestions on what I can do to fix?
[11:07] <geirha> add _netdev to the list of options
[11:07] <geirha> explained in man mount
[11:11] <aivit> where do people usually save docker container configs? /opt/docker/configs/appname or something like that?
[11:12] <jmadero> geirha: no impact, sorry should have said I had already tried that
[11:44] <chmykh> Hello! I am looking for sleek, easy to use and good GUI application for system and home forled backuping with excluding options for steam folders. Thank you!
[11:49] <Teikoman_fi> Is it normal that I can't see my additional address subnet at all when using `networkctl status show --all`? I can see the main address(which was defined to be "on-link: true") but for some reason it doesn't show the second "to:" address part which was set to "scope: link". yet the VMs under that subnet work fine
[11:58] <jmadero> chmykh: isn't Ubuntu packaged with something these days that is used for backing up?
[11:58] <jmadero> I don't know what "sleek" looking means, that's super subjective
[12:01] <chmykh> jmadero, I am on ubuntu-based distro, elementaryos.
[12:15] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[12:22] <FailBacon> Hello is there a way to start a screen session and wait for it to shutdown and after it stopped the script resumes?
[12:55] <xbfrog> is this a beginners channel or not
[12:56] <ioria> xbfrog, how can we help you ?
[12:56] <xbfrog> thanks :)
[12:57] <xbfrog> am in a beginners channel? i don't wanna ask a question that is beneath answer
[12:58] <ioria> xbfrog, yes, you are
[12:58] <xbfrog> ok great
[12:59] <xbfrog> i'm not sure how to charactise my quesiton it needs discription in my unseemely way
[12:59] <xbfrog> i have an issue with the app launcher appearing on my second monitor
[13:00] <xbfrog> cand seem to put it on the main screen
[13:00] <xbfrog> cant*
[13:00] <xbfrog> i dunno what to do
[13:00] <xbfrog> clarify:
[13:01] <xbfrog> i have some visual issues and need a slightly larger screen
[13:01] <xbfrog> but when i change this even to the next step things go wonky
[13:03] <xbfrog> either the screen is too large for apps or the apps banners are too small to read
[13:03] <xbfrog> x the other way: apps to large for the screen
[13:03] <ioria> xbfrog, what release of ubuntu and desktop in use ?
[13:04] <xbfrog> ubuntu 18.04 kplasma desktop
[13:05] <xbfrog> LTS
[13:05] <xbfrog> i'm not a command line user,wish i was but not
[13:06] <ioria> xbfrog, on gnome you can open Settings > Dock >   (and/or Display) and   adjust your setup; you should find the equivalent on kde
[13:07] <xbfrog> i have, but it seems there is a confusion to me which to set first
[13:08] <xbfrog> if i scale the display the apps are too large for the screen
[13:09] <xbfrog> keep in mind i had an external display in the micx
[13:09] <xbfrog> mix*
[13:10] <xbfrog> had, oof,have
[13:11] <xbfrog> it helps when i try to find fixes, which haven't been many
[13:13] <ioria> xbfrog, you can try also to re-set the Fonts
[13:13] <xbfrog> i have
[13:13] <xbfrog> it seems there is a step process
[13:14] <xbfrog> i have done what you said but they seem to overlap/confuse one another
[13:14] <ioria> xbfrog, y maybe the kubuntu or kde channels know more
[13:14] <xbfrog> to me at least
[13:14] <xbfrog> ok thanks for the try
[13:15] <xbfrog> i'm glad ppl like this channel are here :) thanks
[13:15] <ioria> ok
[13:16] <xbfrog> i'm finding the channels i join are not beginner channels, they seem to ignore simple questions
[13:17] <xbfrog> but thanks
[13:17] <BluesKaj> xbfrog, what reolution and scale are you using
[13:17] <BluesKaj> resolution
[13:17] <BluesKaj> oops
[13:50] <sazawal> Hi all. I am using Ubuntu 19.04 with gnome-shell. My bluetooth suddenly stopped working. How do I troubleshoot it? I am not getting any output with bluetoothctl
[13:56] <jeremy31> sazawal: Support for 19.04 ends soon
[13:56] <sazawal> jeremy31, Yes I am aware of that. I will be installing the next LTS 20.04
[13:58] <sorin-mihai__> sazawal, any errors in dmesg?
[13:58] <jeremy31> sazawal: post URL from terminal for>  (lsusb; rfkill list; dmesg | egrep -i 'blue|firm') | nc termbin.com 9999
[13:59] <sazawal> sorin-mihai__, There is this error in dmesg Bluetooth: hci0: unexpected event for opcode 0xfc2f
[14:00] <sazawal> jeremy31, https://termbin.com/3qht
[14:05] <jeremy31> sazawal: All I can find are reports that say that error doesn't affect the bluetooth function
[14:07] <sazawal> jeremy31, I see. I have tried rfkill, bluetoothctl and the gnome-control-center. Doesn't work with any of these and they don't show any errors.
[14:09] <Angs> I am logging two activities on terminal: one of them a serial port via minicom, otherone is a remote device with ssh connection. I'd appreciate to have the time stamp of each time the terminal goes into a new line, does anyone know what tool I can use to get all the timestamps per terminal activity?
[14:10] <jeremy31> sazawal: does bluetoothctl report no controller found?
[14:10] <sazawal> jeremy31, No, it doesn't give a response until I kill it with Ctrl+c
[14:12] <jeremy31> sazawal: See if booting into an older kernel helps.  Another thing would be to shut down and do a cold boot
[14:13] <sazawal> jeremy31, I just did systemctl start bluetooth.service and now it turned on. Don't know why the service was not running already. I have restarted the system 3 times and still it was suspended.
[14:14] <sorin-mihai> Angs, which shell you're using? change the prompt in the shell config, resource the config and should be enough to get the time at prompt return after the command ends
[14:15] <Angs> sorin-mihai, I am using gnome terminal
[14:16] <sorin-mihai> Angs, it shouldn't matter which terminal, it depends what shell you're using in the remote systems. i'd consider the one over minicom to also be remote, since it's not exactly localhost
[14:17] <Angs> I found that minicom has an options for to enable the timestamp, the ssh program is a binary file I couldn't find how to get timestamp per terminal activity
[14:18] <Angs> I mean I run a binary file over ssh (other end also has ubuntu)
[14:19] <sorin-mihai> Angs, that's exactly where the prompt comes in. i guess you're using bash as shell on the remote (unless you changed it, that should be it)?
[14:20] <sorin-mihai> Angs, https://bneijt.nl/blog/post/add-a-timestamp-to-your-bash-prompt/
[14:20] <Angs> no I am using the default options
[14:21] <Angs> I did exactly "export PS1="\t [\u@\h \W]\\$ \[$(tput sgr0)\]"" it outputs the timestamp when I press enter
[14:21] <Angs> but when I run the binary, it just shows the timestamp at the time I press enter, but it doesn't show the timestamp for the printf s that the binary outputs
[14:25] <sorin-mihai> Angs, yeah, static timestamp at the return of the prompt is what PS1 does, since it's the only moment it's being refreshed. another way would be to use powerline for bash, you'd have to install and configure powerline and test it before running the binary
[14:26] <sorin-mihai> Angs, if ssh in the remote server and then run the binary, then you need to configure powerline in the remote server, otherwise, if you get the output in the local system, then you need to configure powerline in the local system
[14:26] <Angs> ok, I will google more about it, thank you very much
[14:50] <H3dn1ng> Does Ubuntu backports clash with Kubuntu backports?
[14:51] <H3dn1ng> Is it ok to use them at the same time?
[14:57] <sorin-mihai> H3dn1ng, i thought kubuntu is just having a different default interface and some small differences, but still using the main repositories
[15:06] <gambl0re> is it possible to install a new distro without having to reinstall all my applications?
[15:23] <H3dn1ng> sorin-mihai: There is an official ubuntu backports but also a semi-official ppa for kubuntu backports
[16:35] <ducasse> gambl0re: you usually wipe the filesystem when you install a new distro
[16:35] <ducasse> gambl0re: if you don't do that you end up with an unholy mess
[16:37] <oerheks> interesting experiment
[16:41] <ducasse> feel free to try it, oerheks
[17:58] <eelstrebor> why does a generic game controller work fine with supertuxcart while a ps4 controller won't?
[18:05] <lotuspsychje> eelstrebor: ubuntu version? connecting method, usb/BT ?
[18:08] <eelstrebor> 18.04.3 , bluetooth connection
[18:10] <lotuspsychje> eelstrebor: from what i read, steam has settings for ps4 controllers, but on ubuntu you might need to github ds4drv to make a proper connection with BT
[18:14] <lotuspsychje> eelstrebor: over usb cable your controller get recognized out of the box on 18.04?
[18:17] <eelstrebor> lotuspsychje, yep
[18:17] <lotuspsychje> eelstrebor: allrighty, try at your own risk, we dont officially support this https://github.com/chrippa/ds4drv
[18:19] <lotuspsychje> eelstrebor: are you using gnome's stock BT or bluez/blueman?
[18:24] <eelstrebor> lotuspsychje, don't know
[18:25] <eelstrebor> i'm having trouble installing ds4drv with "pip" or "python"
[18:25] <eelstrebor> ds4drv doesn't appear to be inn the ubuntu repository
[18:25] <lotuspsychje> eelstrebor: thats what i just told you, not officially supported
[18:26] <eelstrebor> looks like i have bluez installed
[18:27] <lotuspsychje> eelstrebor: here's the most relevant bug i found about it: bug #1511855
[18:28] <eelstrebor> lotuspsychje, maybe that's the problem since i'm using kernel 5.x
[18:29] <lotuspsychje> eelstrebor: bug says kernel 4.5 fixxed
[18:30] <eelstrebor> i suppose i could lower myself to that kernel level (at least to see if it works)
[18:31] <eelstrebor> it really sucks having to go through so many controllers to find one that works - gets a little expensive
[18:39] <sumagna> hello
[19:28] <lotuspsychje> eelstrebor: wich kernel are you on currently
[19:40] <eelstrebor> lotuspsychje, 5.4.12
[19:43] <lotuspsychje> eelstrebor: thats not bionics kernel
[19:52] <seveneleven> how can I setup a serial login shell in ubuntu?
[19:52] <seveneleven> this tutorial seems to be deprecated for ubuntu 18.04 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SerialConsoleHowto
[19:55] <ioria> seveneleven, maybe the part about upstart; check if this help : http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/serial-console.html
[19:56] <seveneleven> trying that, thanks
[19:57] <ioria> ok
[20:01] <rhoks> hey guys whats the lightest web browser one can use?
[20:02] <lotuspsychje> !info links2 | rhoks one of them
[20:03] <rhoks> is it good for youtube and stuff
[20:04] <ioria> rhoks, i don't think so
[20:04] <rhoks> anyone use xombrero before?
[20:06] <rhoks> sooo
[20:06]  * sethh_89 test
[20:07] <ioria> rhoks, there no light web browsers
[20:08] <rhoks> I need to give this laptop back to the old man like right now
[20:08] <ioria> rhoks, the specs ?
[20:09] <rhoks> I think I'll just go as generic and as safe as possible and install either chrome or chromium and install adblock plus and tell him to not use more then 3 or 4 tabs
[20:09] <rhoks> ioria, its laptop from 2010 or 2011
[20:09] <ioria> rhoks, the specs ?
[20:09] <rhoks> with about 3.5GB RAM from what I can tel
[20:09] <ioria> rhoks, the cpu ?
[20:10] <rhoks> I forgot how to get cpu info ioria
[20:10] <ioria> rhoks, lscpu
[20:10] <ioria> rhoks, lscpu | grep 'Model name'
[20:10] <rhoks> AMD E-450 APU with Radeon (tm) HD Graphics
[20:11] <rhoks> CPU MHz: 823.605
[20:11] <rhoks> CPU max MHz: 1650,0000
[20:11] <ioria> rhoks, low, but ff should work
[20:11] <rhoks> ioria
[20:12] <rhoks> would it better the better option than chrome or chromium ioria
[20:13] <ioria> rhoks, peobably, you can try midori from snap ... but now midori is different
[20:13] <jayjo> I asked this earlier today on #ubuntu-server as well but didn't get anything. I'm trying to setup ubuntu to require either a google authenticator or yubikey 2fa when ssh is established. Does this require two different PAM modules? Can I enable both modules, but require a user to use one or the other? That way, if one is lost, the other method can still be used?
[20:14] <pragmaticenigma> rhoks: It's a subjective question, what one person cosiders to be better may not be what you or the owner of the machine will think. With that said, most of the mainstream web browsers available do allow tweaking for better support of older harder. You might have to do a little research to find out how to manager their configurations.
[20:16] <ioria> i remember uzbl, it was great (apart the everyday crashes )
[20:16] <rhoks> :)
[20:16] <pragmaticenigma> rhoks, I would avoid looking at non-mainstream browsers, as there is no way to know if they're properly patched and secured against the most recent attack vectors. Especially a machine that you will not have access to when you return it to it's owner. It would be better to stay closer to what is commonly used.
[20:17] <rhoks> yeah
[20:17] <rhoks> plus I don't have time to research what you suggest so much.
[20:17] <rhoks> I will just tell him to not use too many tabs and tbh I even doubt he does.
[20:18] <pragmaticenigma> jayjo: #ubuntu-server is the best place to ask that question, however it is the weekend and usually activity in that channel is much quieter. You might want to wait for a week day and try to ask between the hours of 0900 Eastern Time and 1700 Eastern Time
[20:19] <pragmaticenigma> rhoks: Just because you give the machine back doesn't mean you can't still research ;-)
[20:20] <rhoks> hehe :P
[20:20] <rhoks> yeah its been with me a while I tried to update win7 so much but at the end found out Microsoft is ending support this year (already) as of 14th of January
[20:21] <rhoks> even if that wasn't so the laptop was far too slow and buggy and laggy with windows7
[20:21] <rhoks> it needed a lighter system and now it has one in xubuntu pragmaticenigma ioria :)
[20:21] <rhoks> Thank you folks.
[20:22] <ioria> rhoks, yeah, xubuntu is ok
[20:22] <rhoks> even though the fan is working apparently as hard as it did when win7 was there
[20:22] <rhoks> I can feel the difference in speed though
[20:23] <ioria> rhoks, the xfce session should be lighter, and you can remove autostart applications
[20:27] <rhoks> Done.
[20:27] <rhoks> I'll just tell the old man not to use more than 3 or 4 tabs and it should be fine.
[20:27] <rhoks> thanks guys
[20:28] <ioria> no problem
[20:37] <pragmaticenigma> rhoks, A note on the fans... if no has opened that unit up in 9-10 years... it's probably clogged with dust and debris... would be a good idea to open it and clean out the dust
[20:40] <elias_a> Yep. Compressed air is your friend.
[20:53] <myuser> When setting up a new system, I understand the benefits of separate /boot and /home partitions. What are the benefits of /var and /tmp?
[20:57] <pragmaticenigma> myuser, for a home user, there isn't any benefit
[20:59] <pragmaticenigma> myuser: those are some out dated practices. on my home machines, I only partition /home into it's own area. I don't recommend a /boot partition, as kernel updates can fill up that partition quickly if not properly managed.
[21:00] <chamar> "/var/log" contains a bunch of logs file.  so if something goes south, it won't fill your / ..
[21:02] <myuser> pragmaticenigma: Thanks.
[21:02] <myuser> chamar: Is that the same reasoning for /tmp?
[21:03] <chamar> tmp is a special filesytem (tmpfs) that is supposed to be only used for temporary file.  The files are actually store in RAM / swap.
[21:04] <pragmaticenigma> chamar, that is not correct
[21:04] <chamar> hum. at least on Fedora? now I'm confused.
[21:04] <chamar> (booting ubuntu)
[21:06] <chamar> I retract what I said.  @pragmaticenigma is right.
[21:07] <pragmaticenigma> "/tmp" is a path where applications can generate files that are temporary, it's considered volitile as on boot the folder will be cleared out. Similar to the comment about /var/log filling up a disk with entries, the same can happen in the "/tmp" path. So some users prefer to partition it, to make sure it doesn't get too big
[21:09] <pragmaticenigma> myuser, in a typical home user setting. There is no real need to do much partitioning. The advisment on partitions is more appropriate where the system would be used in a server role.
[21:09] <chamar> geez. I took for granted that /tmp was always a tmpfs .. well.. never too late to learn I guess.  Thanks for the hint @pragmaticenigma
[21:10] <pragmaticenigma> chamar, It could the case for some distributions. But I've not seen it implemented that way in Ubuntu
[21:10] <myuser> pragmaticenigma: Are these files only removed on boot. I pretty much run it like a server 24/7.
[21:11] <pragmaticenigma> myuser, most programs automatically remove their temporary files. I run my machine all the time, the folder rarely sees more than a few files in it, and they're actively being used by Firefox or other applications I presently have running.
[21:12] <EdFletcherT137> on a server it is indeed more of a consideration though, as they are rarely rebooted and not all daemons are so well-behaved :)
[21:12] <chamar> (or user are not well-behaved) ....
[21:12] <myuser> pragmaticenigma: Do logs ever get purged?
[21:13] <pragmaticenigma> myuser, Ubuntu uses an application called logrotate, that automatically handles that
[21:13] <myuser> do any of you setup disk quotas to check on that sort of thing?
[21:13] <pragmaticenigma> myuser, not for a home machine
[21:14] <myuser> fair enough
[21:15] <pragmaticenigma> myuser, partitioning can be a good thing and a bad thing. it's a good thing if you regularly are going to monitor usage and resize partitions or clean up after messy programs regularly
[21:16] <pragmaticenigma> it becomes a bad thing when you don't constantly monitor all the usage and a partition fille up, and causes issues elsewhere in the system. That is why Ubuntu's default partitioning scheme for Desktop doesn't partition anything by default.
[21:16] <myuser> how big are you / paritions for home machines?
[21:20] <pragmaticenigma> myuser, mine take up the full disk size
[21:20] <adrian_1908> Anyone here using Redshift? It stopped working for me today, after package updates (including new kernel) came in.
[21:22] <pragmaticenigma> adrian_1908, have you rebooted since the new kernal was installed?
[21:22] <adrian_1908> yes
[21:23] <adrian_1908> This was from a fresh boot, I upgraded earlier today and shut down the machine. Only notice it now that's it's dark.
[21:25] <pragmaticenigma> adrian_1908, anything in your log files?
[21:25] <adrian_1908> lemme check
[21:28] <adrian_1908> pragmaticenigma: not seeing anything. But other error logs I'll have to look into (CUPS, colord) sometime.
[21:28] <adrian_1908> If i start redshift manually from the cli, I get `Gamma ramp size too small: 0; Failed to start adjustment method randr. (…)`
[21:29] <adrian_1908> But that might have been there before, who knows.
[21:38] <adrian_1908> Will reboot, might not be Redshift's fault.
[22:04] <RadSurfer_> is there a command/utility that will identify the desktop-gui by name?
[22:05] <Bashing-om> RadSurfer_: echo $DESKTOP_SESSION " " $XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP
[22:10] <RadSurfer_> no other details? Thanks
[22:11] <Bashing-om> RadSurfer_: What else is there to respond to ? We are here to help :P
[22:12] <RadSurfer_> "gnome 3" , "unity" using 19.10 here
[22:12] <RadSurfer_> so this would not using using either of those?
[22:12] <RadSurfer_> which version of gnome, for example?
[22:12] <Bashing-om> RadSurfer_: Possible >>
[22:13] <bobdobbs> I recently switched to plasma desktop. I love it, but there's this one thing I find frustrating. Dolphin and other apps don't show image file previews
[22:13] <Bashing-om> !unity | RadSurfer_
[22:13] <bobdobbs> Can KDE/plasma be configured to show image previews?
[22:13] <RadSurfer_> I went through Setup program, it makes no mention of desktop at all
[22:14] <bobdobbs> This is particularly frustrating in applications like gimp and inkscape. I'd like to see what it is that I'm opening.
[22:15] <adrian_1908> Alright so my problem is apparently with the nvidia driver and the latest kernel update. Where would I look on launchpad for bug reports regarding that? I don't know in which package that would be reported (if someone did).
[22:15] <Bashing-om> RadSurfer_: Depending on what falvour you installed, is what the desktop environment is.
[22:16] <RadSurfer_> surely, there's a way to check it
[22:18] <Bashing-om> RadSurfer_: "sysop@x1804mini:~$ echo $DESKTOP_SESSION " " $XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP >> xubuntu   XFCE" where I am running (x)ubuntu with the xfce desktop. Your case? gnome? what shows terminal command ' dpkg -l gnome ' ?
[22:18] <RadSurfer_> 'Gnome 3.34.2' ah! Okay!
[22:18] <RadSurfer_> I've only been back to using Ubuntu since November
[22:19] <RadSurfer_> $ dpkg -l gnome
[22:19] <RadSurfer_> dpkg-query: no packages found matching gnome
[22:20] <Bashing-om> RadSurfer_: Not to know is not an ubuntu sin. We were all new at one time :P
[22:21] <RadSurfer_> Were we always able to resize/hide that side bar of icons?
[22:22] <Bashing-om> !info gnome eoan | RadSurfer_
[22:25] <Bashing-om> !info gdm3 eoan | RadSurfer_
[22:26] <RadSurfer_> how would I check that? your dpkg doesn't work here
[22:27] <RadSurfer_> ahah!
[22:27] <Bashing-om> RadSurfer_: What returns ' dpkg -l gdm3 ' ?
[22:28] <RadSurfer_> http://dpaste.com/337DK7E  :-|}
[22:31] <RadSurfer_> Excellent. :)
[22:31] <Bashing-om> RadSurfer_: "ii" says that gdm3 is fully installed - version 3.34.1-1ubuntu1.
[22:31] <RadSurfer_> Okie.
[22:32] <adrian_1908> Managed to solve my issue. Ubuntu defaults to a conservative, older branch of the Nvidia driver. I checked online and more recent drivers (restricted repo, no PPA) also support my gfx card. So Installed the latest one and the conflict with the recent HWE kernel is gone.
[22:33] <RadSurfer_> is there a way to turn OFF auto-arrangement of Desktop Icons?
[22:34] <Bashing-om> RadSurfer_: That one I can not adrress as I have no GDM expeience.
[22:34] <Bashing-om> experience*
[22:41] <Bashing-om> !info gnome-tweak-tool eoan | RadSurfer_
[22:42] <RadSurfer_> whatevr that does
[22:44] <Bashing-om> RadSurfer_: Want to alter gdm ? ^^ that is the tool to do it with :)
[22:44] <RadSurfer_> I see.
[22:51] <myuser> I plan to setup some different linux distros on top of lvm. I was going to setup volume groups based on the underlying pv structure - e.g. block, RAID 6, etc. This would tell me what redundancy (if any) my lvs have. Is there a convention or best practice I should use instead?
[22:58] <Mr_Cyclops> Hello. Need a fully featured web based file manager for Ubuntu. I am using Bionic. Any suggestions please? thank you
[23:06] <pragmaticenigma> myuser: This channel is more focused on the support of a running instance of Ubuntu. How you wish to setup your computer, especially such advanced ones like that, is up to you to do your research and decide what works best for you. You could try channels such as #ubuntu-offtopic or ##linux as resources for those types of questions.
[23:09] <myuser> ok
[23:36] <bencc1> is there something opensource equivalent to virtualbox?
[23:41] <ducasse> bencc1: qemu/kvm
[23:41] <ducasse> bencc1: for a gui see virt-manager
[23:54] <Goji> I did something stupid and put a script in /etc/grub.d that broke my bootloader. I need to get in and delete that file, but I encrypted my drive at installation. Is this recoverable? Or do I need to format?
[23:57] <blackhole> Hi All, I have ubuntu 18.04 and I am trying to use my mic for first time, it shows up as plugged but doesn't seems to work or record anything
[23:57] <blackhole> can someone help or guide me on how to make it work?
[23:59] <akemhp> blackhole, install pavucontrol and audacity.
[23:59] <blackhole> akemhp, already have those


[05:20] <mborzecki> morning
[06:38] <mborzecki> mvo: morning
[06:39] <mvo> hey mborzecki
[07:03] <pstolowski> morning
[07:07] <mborzecki> pstolowski: hey
[07:13] <mvo> good morning pstolowski
[07:14] <mvo> pstolowski: 7016 has two +1, can I squash it and cherry pick it to 2.40?
[07:14] <mborzecki> https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7093 can land easily
[07:15] <mvo> pstolowski: also see my last comment, AIUI the sublevel patch is applied not more often now than before? or am I misreading something?
[07:15] <pstolowski> mvo: yes! thank you
[07:15] <mvo> pstolowski: thank *you*
[07:36] <mborzecki> passing a suite selector with ... on spread command line, those are nor ORed apparently
[07:38] <mborzecki> duh, manual: true :/
[07:41] <zyga> Hey, trying to connect from my laptop but fighting network issue
[07:41] <zyga> Somehow cannot tether
[08:05] <pedronis> mborzecki: reviewed again 6890, it needs a 2nd review, John gave it but has changed a lot since.
[08:06] <mborzecki> pedronis: great, i'll ping Chipaca when he's around
[08:41] <zyga> re
[08:41] <zyga> yay
[09:38] <ackk> hi, is there a way for a (confined) snap to know the channel it's tracking?
[09:39] <zyga> ackk: no, but we discussed adding that via snapctl
[09:39] <zyga> ackk: perhaps pstolowski knows this?
[09:41] <pedronis> I don't remember discussing this in particular
[09:42] <pstolowski> yep, as pedronis says
[09:42] <pedronis> we mainly discussed: checking whether an interface is connected, check whether there is new revision, and very recently checking whether there's a missed/pending auto-refresh because an app was running
[09:43] <pedronis> I think is not totally out of question to return this info in the 2nd of that list
[09:43] <pedronis> but I would like to understand the use case
[09:44] <ackk> pedronis, in maas' case, we have an option to deploy a machine as a maas rackcontroller, which installs the snap. ideally we want the same version of the currently running maas. of course there's no guarantee that the channel doesn't have a newer revision, but pointing the new machine to the same channel is the best option
[09:45] <pedronis> ackk: you want to use cohorts for that
[09:45] <pedronis> that's what they are designed for
[09:45] <ackk> pedronis, how do they work?
[09:45] <pedronis> make sure a cluster always uses the same revision
[09:46] <pedronis> ackk: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/managing-cohorts/8995  they will be in 2.40
[09:46]  * ackk reads up
[09:47] <ackk> pedronis, so the idea is you create a cohort on machine A ("pinning" the version of maas), deploy machine B and install maas using the cohort, delete the cohort?
[09:48] <pedronis> ackk: yes, you don't delete cohorts though
[09:48] <pedronis> they don't take space in the store
[09:48] <ackk> pedronis, but they will prevent both machines for getting updated if a new snap is released right?
[09:48] <zyga> pedronis: we did discuss checking which channel is being tracked in lyon
[09:49] <pedronis> zyga: I don't remember, maybe in a conversation I was not in, or maybe it was before I arrived
[09:49] <zyga> pedronis: perhaps in a hallway but I'm sure we had that conversation
[09:49] <zyga> I don't recall that detail
[09:49] <pedronis> ackk: they will prevent the machine to get updated for 90 days, then they update but they will again update to the same revisions
[09:50] <ackk> pedronis, ok. so if we don't want to hold the update, just to get them on the same channel, deleting is fine. correct?
[09:50] <pedronis> ackk: deleting what?
[09:50] <ackk> pedronis, the cohort after installing machine B
[09:50] <pedronis> ackk: there is not deleting of cohorts
[09:51] <ackk> sorry, i mean, leaving it
[09:51] <pedronis> ackk: no, if you leave it
[09:51] <pedronis> they will potentially go out of sync
[09:52] <pedronis> if you want to refresh you do the same
[09:52] <pedronis> get a new cohort
[09:52] <pedronis> on a machine
[09:52] <pedronis> and refresh again on the others using that cohort
[09:52] <zyga> mborzecki: found one more leaky test https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7091/commits/bace705b928d065a61870cf16953b652ad5c576a
[09:53] <ackk> pedronis, but you have to leave the cohoort to refresh, right?
[09:53] <pedronis> ackk: no
[09:53] <ondra> zyga ping
[09:54] <zyga> hey ondra
[09:54] <pedronis> acck: you do snap refresh --cohort=<new-cohort>
[09:54] <ondra> zyga I have machine which just went into funny state

[09:54] <ondra> zyga opengrok-2 opengrok.tomcat[3188]: cannot locate base snap core18: No such file or directory
[09:54] <ondra> zyga ut
[09:54] <ondra> zyga it's classic ubuntu 18.04
[09:54] <pedronis> ackk: you can switch from cohort to cohort without leaving using those ops
[09:54] <zyga> ondra: is core18 mounted?
[09:54] <ackk> pedronis, oh, I see, I thought create-cohort would be related to what you have, I see it's not
[09:55] <zyga> ondra: mborzecki reported weird system state after systemd update today
[09:55] <ondra> zyga it has not rebooted for weeks
[09:55] <ondra> zyga it's mounted, but there is not sym link to 'current'
[09:55] <zyga> ondra: but systemd updates in place
[09:56] <zyga> ondra: oh, that's curiour
[09:56] <mborzecki> ondra: looked like systemd lost track of loopback devices and where they were mounted at after it was daemon-reexec'ed during the update
[09:56] <zyga> ondra: can you check snap changes?
[09:56] <zyga> mvo: ^^
[09:56] <ackk> pedronis, I see, thanks
[09:56] <zyga> mvo: current went away on ondra's machine
[09:56] <ondra> zyga yep 86   Error   today at 07:04 UTC      today at 07:04 UTC      Auto-refresh snap "core18"
[09:57] <ondra> zyga https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/G4rT485kFr/
[09:57] <ondra> zyga hmm Error   today at 07:04 UTC  today at 07:04 UTC  Make current revision for snap "core18" unavailable
[09:58] <ondra> zyga I did not. update systemd for ages there
[09:58] <zyga> ondra: can you show snap tasks  for that change please?
[09:58] <ondra> zyga this machine is running web service, so I did not touch it for several weeks/months
[09:59] <zyga> ondra: some updates auto apply via security pocket
[09:59] <ondra> zyga do you mean that paste bin I sent?
[09:59] <zyga> oh, looking
[09:59] <zyga> ondra: your fs is broken
[09:59] <zyga> ondra: is / writable?
[09:59] <ondra> zyga it's classic ubuntu
[10:00] <zyga> ondra: is it writable
[10:00] <zyga> looks like it switched to read only mode
[10:00] <ondra> zyga looks like
[10:00] <ondra> I was able to touch file in home
[10:00] <ondra> zyga and root
[10:01] <zyga> actually, the error is curious
[10:01] <zyga> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/CEml5ETz/
[10:01] <zyga> er
[10:02] <zyga> that's the $SNAP_DATA data-set
[10:02] <zyga> is /var/snap mounted on another partition>?
[10:02] <ondra> zyga it is :)
[10:03] <zyga> is that partition read only?
[10:03] <ondra> zyga nope writable
[10:04] <zyga> ondra: then I don't know
[10:04] <zyga> ondra: check system logs for around 2019-07-12T07:04:46Z
[10:04] <zyga> maybe something happened then?
[10:06] <ondra> zyga no I could only see there that read only error
[10:07] <ondra> zyga so manual 'snap refresh core18' went fine and fixed it
[10:07] <zyga> ondra: which cloud provider is this?
[10:11] <mvo> pstolowski: thanks for 7096! really nice to see how straightforward this is now
[10:11] <pstolowski> mvo: it became so much simplier with nulls internally
[10:12] <mvo> pstolowski: cool stuff!
[10:12] <pstolowski> i could throw away a large chunk of the new code
[10:13] <ondra> zyga you do not want to know, canonistack :D
[10:13] <ondra> zyga I blame it on cosmic rays
[10:13] <zyga> pstolowski: with https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7096/files we could look at tests that set stuff to unset it
[10:14] <zyga> I have a few for sure
[10:14] <zyga> thanks for that!
[10:17] <zyga> pstolowski: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7096#pullrequestreview-261176295
[10:18] <pstolowski> zyga: thanks!
[10:20] <Chipaca> pedronis: fwiw, fyi, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1828500
[10:21] <zyga> pstolowski: one more https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7096/files#r302922240
[10:21] <pedronis> Chipaca: we need to loop in whoever is making those images
[10:22] <Chipaca> pedronis: loop in, yes. With steel wire around <body parts>.
[10:22] <Chipaca> pedronis: assuming my suspicion is correct
[10:22] <Chipaca> which I suspect it is :-)
[10:22] <pstolowski> zyga: right, thanks!
[10:22] <Chipaca> anyhow, time for a break
[10:22]  * Chipaca breaks things
[10:27] <mborzecki> this is interesting https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/too-early-for-operations/12243/8
[10:27] <mborzecki> shouldn't core be listed there?
[10:28] <zyga> mborzecki: yes
[10:28] <zyga> whoever makes that seed needs to fix it
[10:29] <mborzecki> hm that's 19.10 :) at least it hasn't been released yet
[10:30] <mborzecki> mvo: do you know how seed.yaml is generated for those images?
[10:31] <zyga> mborzecki: perhaps manually
[10:31] <zyga> mborzecki: many people don't know about snap prepare-image and use a page full of shell to do the "equivalent"
[10:31] <zyga> given that there are on snap IDs there I bet it is the shell versioni
[10:32] <mvo> mborzecki: what image exactly?
[10:33] <mborzecki> mvo: see the topic, someone installed 19.10 from a daily image, seed.yaml looks broken
[10:33] <mvo> mborzecki: :( I think those seeds are generated "manually" by some livecd-rootfs shell. we can ask foundations (cc sil2100) how 19.10 daily image seed.yaml is generated and if it can be fixed
[10:34] <pedronis> we are trying to move them to prepare-image --classic
[10:34] <pedronis> but given the complexity of livecd-rootfs, is not trivial
[10:40] <diddledan> Chipaca: I just added the seed.yaml from a hyper-v image
[10:40] <diddledan> ref: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1828500
[10:46] <Chipaca> diddledan: thanks! could you do the followup, ie sudo snap info --verbose /var/lib/snapd/seed/snaps/*.snap | grep base:  ?
[10:48] <diddledan> done
[10:49] <Chipaca> diddledan: who creates these images, do you know?
[10:49] <diddledan> I don't
[10:50] <diddledan> looks like willcooke might know as he posted the blog entry about them https://ubuntu.com/blog/optimised-ubuntu-desktop-images-available-in-microsoft-hyper-v-gallery
[10:51] <Chipaca> willcooke: can we talk about QAing stuff :/
[10:52] <zyga> I can try the hyper v image later if anyone needs me to
[10:53] <diddledan> does snapd wait for the user to login before doing any pre-seed? I'm wondering if the way those images logs you in is confusing matters - it uses XRDP over a Hyper-V internal socket
[10:54] <Chipaca> diddledan: no it does not
[10:54] <diddledan> ok, ignore that then :-p
[10:54]  * diddledan throws more random at the wall until stuff sticks :-D
[10:54] <Chipaca> diddledan: it's simple, the seed.yaml needs to be self-contained
[10:54] <willcooke> Chipaca, it has been working previously, because things like calc are snaps.  I have a feeling we have talked about this problem previously, but kenvandine will need to comment further.
[10:54] <Chipaca> diddledan: if a snap in seed needs core18, core18 needs to be in the seed
[10:55] <diddledan> aha. so the seed.yaml is missing core18!
[10:55] <Chipaca> willcooke: calc and things have needed core18 since shortly after 18.04
[10:55] <Chipaca> willcooke: those images have gone out, and we blogged about them, without them working: the _seeded_ snaps have core18
[10:55] <diddledan> that makes sense, because core did get installed by the pre-seed
[10:55] <Chipaca> this isn't a weird things-got-updated-after-image-baking, the image is baked and has not been tested
[10:56] <Chipaca> willcooke: thus me asking about QA
[10:57] <Chipaca> willcooke: you have the same issue in dailies fwiw, if that's also 'under' you
[10:57] <Chipaca> willcooke: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/too-early-for-operations/12243?u=chipaca
[10:58] <Chipaca> (i'm less concerned about these because those are explicitly not qa'd)
[11:00] <willcooke> Chipaca, kenvandine knows about this, he'll be online in an hour or so I expect
[11:01] <Chipaca> ok
[11:01] <Chipaca> willcooke: both of these?
[11:02] <willcooke> Chipaca, yes, I think it's the same problem, and I have a feeling that he's spoken to someone in your team about this recently. I thought he'd worked around it, but it would seem not
[11:03] <Chipaca> willcooke: I'll wait and talk with kenvandine when they're around, then
[11:03] <Chipaca> my view is very snapd-centric but I don't see what there's to workaround :-)
[11:07] <ackk> I've been seeing a weird behavior recently. At times some snaps (maybe it's actually just core18) show up in nautilus as removable devices. If I click on it it gets mounted under /media and I see the content, but the file is not actually there: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/9DMCxHR3RN/
[11:09]  * zyga sees that as more rationale to mount snaps in dedicated namespaces only
[11:10] <ackk> zyga, I don't understand how nautilus finds it, the file is not there but I can mount/umount it multiple times and it actually works
[11:11] <zyga> ackk: nautilus probably tracks all mount ops
[11:14] <ackk> zyga, yeah but the snap is gone, and it's not mounted anymore
[11:14] <Chipaca> ackk: wait until you notice using tab completion on snap makes devices flicker in nautilus
[11:14] <Chipaca> ackk: *that* will do your head in
[11:14] <zyga> Chipaca: whaaat?
[11:14] <ackk> wat?
[11:15] <Chipaca> not all the time, sadly
[11:15] <mborzecki> zyga: rawhide cloud image https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/FTTpjJv2Hj/ hm doesn't look like only v2
[11:15] <zyga> mborzecki: perhaps not switched by default yet, the plan is to by release though
[11:16] <mborzecki> zyga: mhm
[11:19] <mborzecki> zyga: ok, on cgroup2 now only
[11:19] <zyga> mborzecki: woot
[11:19] <zyga> mborzecki: I'm fixing leaky tests
[11:19] <zyga> mborzecki: found a good way now
[11:19] <mborzecki> zyga: i mean the image is switched to unified hierarchy https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/YzcFg4rD7z/ ;)
[11:20] <zyga> mborzecki: ?
[11:20] <zyga> mborzecki: did you switch yourself
[11:20] <zyga> mborzecki: or did you update?
[11:20] <zyga> mborzecki: I like one thing about v2
[11:20] <zyga> mborzecki: run mount
[11:20] <zyga> mborzecki: see how short that is? :D
[11:20] <mborzecki> zyga: switched it myself, this the yesterday's compose
[11:21] <mborzecki> zyga: shorter but not super short :)
[11:22] <zyga> mborzecki: how long is it?
[11:25] <mborzecki> zyga: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/sbfygMW6Hr/
[11:25]  * zyga sees more bpf
[11:26] <mborzecki> heh
[11:27] <mborzecki> poeple seem use some automation to track upstream releases for aur packages, mvo uploaded a release 2h go, 40 minutes ago got an email from aur that the package has been flagged already
[11:31] <zyga> god, why is apt removing lxd all the time
[11:31] <zyga> mvo: how can I check that a package is installed vs auto-installed
[11:41] <mvo> zyga: apt show lxd
[11:41] <mvo> zyga: watch out for "APT-Manual-Installed: yes
[11:41] <mvo> "
[11:41] <zyga> mvo: thank you
[11:41] <zyga> mvo: tests are wreaking havoc to lxc preinstalled in cloud image
[11:41] <zyga> mvo: because unrelated apt-get autoremove other-package # removes lxd
[11:43] <mvo> fun
[11:43] <mvo> apt install xld
[11:43] <mvo> apt install lxd
[11:43] <mvo> will set lxd to manual installed
[11:43] <zyga> yeah, I'm just double checking the initial state
[11:43] <zyga> the qemu images don't have lxd
[11:43] <zyga> but cloud images do
[11:44]  * pstolowski lunch
[11:45] <mvo> 7k closed PRs
[11:46]  * mvo is impressed
[11:55] <zyga> mvo: so, I don't see the manual flag
[11:55] <zyga> mvo: but apt autoremove doesn't remove it
[11:56] <zyga> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qI2YEpuO/
[11:58] <mborzecki> Chipaca: also https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/too-early-for-operations/12243/ is a daily 19.10 image
[11:58] <zyga> hmmmm
[11:59] <zyga> gosh
[11:59] <zyga> what is making this broken :.
[12:01] <Chipaca> zyga: which thing?
[12:08] <zyga> Chipaca: tests installing and removing packages
[12:08] <zyga> I don't understand it yet
[12:08] <zyga> but some remove operations remove lxd
[12:08] <zyga> why, don't know
[12:08] <zyga> fighting spread to give me shell before changing the image much
[12:09] <zyga> usability of spread is sometimes lacking
[12:10] <mvo> zyga: that means its used by something
[12:11] <zyga> mvo: is that apt show line going to show me this  information reliably, that it is auto-installed?
[12:11] <zyga> mvo: I want to understand what is breaking the state (changing it from manual to auto)
[12:11]  * zyga is extremely fed up with the heat
[12:12] <mvo> zyga: maybe we can have a quick chat ? I'm not sure I have enough context but there are a bunch of debug option available to figure out why something gets removed
[12:12] <mvo> zyga: do you have a link to a log or something?
[12:12] <zyga> mvo: I'm tired, need a break
[12:12] <zyga> mvo: I will look at this later
[12:14] <jdstrand> ackk: not sure you say from yesterday: 17:24 < jdstrand> ackk: fyi, https://people.canonical.com/~jamie/snapd-daemon-user/
[12:14] <mvo> zyga: yeah, lets just talk after the standup
[12:20] <mborzecki> zyga: broken snaps looks like a larger problem with systemd/5.2 kernel
[12:20] <mborzecki> zyga: just got the same state after a reboot
[12:22] <mborzecki> zyga: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/QMH66ZXcNW/
[12:24] <mborzecki> arch package updated
[12:25] <Chipaca> drat, late for lunch
[12:25]  * Chipaca runs
[12:49]  * Chipaca om noms
[12:50]  * Chipaca is on fire
[12:50]  * Chipaca makes a note to use fewer chillies next time
[13:01] <Eighth_Doctor> ugh...
[13:01]  * Chipaca omw
[13:01] <Eighth_Doctor> https://twitter.com/hughsient/status/1149663770026733571
[13:01] <Eighth_Doctor> https://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2019/07/12/gnome-software-in-fedora-will-no-longer-support-snapd/
[13:03] <Chipaca> I was particularly perturbed by him saying we're at war
[13:08] <diddledan> "One ISO consortium member asks whether they should remove hydrogen engine support from the ISO car as they feel BMW is not playing fair." <-- that's the crux, it is being used as a punishment for daring to consider alternatives
[13:10] <diddledan> and let's be clear. the investigation is barely 20 days old
[13:15] <Eighth_Doctor> diddledan: imo, having something that isn't g-s for the non-gnome flavors would be useful anyway
[13:15] <Eighth_Doctor> right now, there's nothing available for DEs that don't have their own software management frontend
[13:22] <Eighth_Doctor> like MATE, for example
[13:24] <Eighth_Doctor> diddledan: I'm not happy that I'm being caught in the crossfire though :(
[13:27] <mborzecki> zyga: added a topic about mount problems with 5.2 I see here: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snap-mounts-broken-with-kernel-5-2-and-systemd-242/12272
[13:28] <zyga> thank you, looking
[13:31] <Chipaca> Eighth_Doctor: is there anything i can do to help
[13:31] <diddledan> cuddles?
[13:31] <Chipaca> Eighth_Doctor: even if it's just something like, send you pizza or flowers or beer or something
[13:31] <Eighth_Doctor> Chipaca: I don't know
[13:31] <Eighth_Doctor> haha
[13:31] <zyga> mborzecki: thank you for reminding me about 2.40; I'll update openSUSE and look at Debian
[13:32] <Eighth_Doctor> zyga: is 2.40 out now?
[13:32] <mborzecki> Eighth_Doctor: yes
[13:32] <Eighth_Doctor> joy...
[13:32] <roadmr> https://snapcraft.io/core
[13:33] <Eighth_Doctor> alright, since hughsie is being a jerk, I guess I have to package gnome-software-snap separately
[13:34] <Eighth_Doctor> Chipaca: what makes this situation worse is that he's trapped me with the snap store thing
[13:34] <Eighth_Doctor> I don't know if I dare bring up this to FESCo or the Council, because he might try to use it to get snapd removed from the distro entirely
[13:34]  * diddledan wants 2.41 already :-p ('cos it'll have my change from https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/6876)
[13:35] <Eighth_Doctor> Chipaca: he put that in the changelog entry for justification: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/gnome-software/c/ef1746da8c7613c6bd29d9b9bbfbe95c4291bc85
[13:37] <Chipaca> Eighth_Doctor: *hugs*
[13:37] <diddledan> surely all this throwing of toys is just gonna force Ubuntu to not use gnome software ever again?
[13:37] <Eighth_Doctor> to me, it looks like he's just unhappy he can't have flathub
[13:38] <Eighth_Doctor> that's what it seems like to me, but he says he was already told Ubuntu wasn't going to
[13:39] <Eighth_Doctor> I think I've handled this fairly well, all things considered<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[13:45] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: oh man
[13:45] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: changelog entry
[13:46] <Eighth_Doctor> zyga: yup
[13:46] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: yeah, it feels like a lot of hurt feelings now
[13:46] <pstolowski> mvo: btw #6977 needs your re-review
[13:47] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: thank you for participating in that discussion, I feel that it is unfortunate it ended up like that and that  some heat-of-the-moment-commit-messages will be regretted eventually
[13:47] <zyga> but what's done is done
[13:47] <mvo> pstolowski: aha, nice - thank you!
[13:48] <Eighth_Doctor> zyga: I guess I'm packaging gnome-software-snap separately now
[13:48] <Eighth_Doctor> god damn all of this
[13:49] <mvo>  /o\
[13:49] <mborzecki> Eighth_Doctor: hopefully it's smooth as long as g-s doesn't break the a[pb]i
[13:49] <mvo> Eighth_Doctor: sorry for the trouble
[13:49] <Eighth_Doctor> mborzecki: ABI breaks every release
[13:50] <Eighth_Doctor> that's why no one does out of tree plugins
[13:55] <zyga> https://twitter.com/hughsient/status/1149677435933224960
[14:12]  * cachio afk
[14:40] <kenvandine> mvo: https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntu/commit/?h=eoan&id=6f3707c8dd8fdc7c4c0ca1eeff428fa0e4678db6
[14:41] <diddledan> \o/
[14:41] <diddledan> awesome, kenvandine :-)
[14:41] <Chipaca> kenvandine: note you also need to have 'core'
[14:42] <kenvandine> Chipaca: iirc livecd-rootfs pulls in core explicitly
[14:42] <Chipaca> dunno if the new logic thing does that
[14:42] <kenvandine> or was
[14:42] <kenvandine> right
[14:42] <diddledan> you need to have both now
[14:42] <Chipaca> kenvandine: yesterday's daily did not
[14:42] <kenvandine> right
[14:42] <Chipaca> kenvandine: that's what the forum issue was about
[14:42] <kenvandine> looks like this has been broken for a while
[14:42] <Chipaca> kenvandine: the launchpad one was a missing core18
[14:42] <mvo> kenvandine: thank you!
[14:43] <Chipaca> kenvandine: what project should I assign the launchpad one to?
[14:43] <kenvandine> livecd-rootfs i guess
[14:43] <kenvandine> since according to this commit should be explicitly pulling in core18
[14:44] <Chipaca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/livecd-rootfs/+bug/1828500
[14:44] <Chipaca> done :)
[14:44] <diddledan> the commit is `- * core18` - the commit explicitly removed core18 from the list
[14:44] <kenvandine> right
[14:45] <kenvandine> but the commit message said they did that because livecd-rootfs explicitly adds it
[14:45] <Chipaca> kenvandine: what QA is done on these images? how did get to make a blog post about an image that was broken in this way?
[14:45] <Chipaca> kenvandine: talking about the hyperv ones in particular
[14:45] <kenvandine> we manually tested he hyperv images, so i don't know what happened there
[14:45] <kenvandine> Chipaca: remember i had run into a similar problem with this?
[14:46] <kenvandine> and we figured out what was needed to get the seed to work
[14:46] <Chipaca> kenvandine: yes which is why i assumed there was some sort of automated qa to catch it
[14:46] <kenvandine> when i was creating the 19.04 images
[14:46] <Chipaca> 18.05 already had these issues (from hwe peeps)
[14:46] <Chipaca> or was it 18.06
[14:46] <kenvandine> and it was working, so i'm really confused as to how what ended up on partner-images is broken
[14:46] <Chipaca> anyway, yeah
[14:46] <kenvandine> unless it wasn't the right image that was copied there
[14:47] <kenvandine> which could b
[14:47] <kenvandine> +e
[14:47] <kenvandine> at the time we were manually moving files around and had a series of broken images
[14:48] <kenvandine> we're just now getting a more formalized process as foundations is taking over creating those images
[14:54] <kenvandine> Chipaca: so i guess we should actually revert that commit and add core18 to the bionic seed?
[14:54] <diddledan> I can't find a corresponding commit (removing core18) for bionic branch - it looks like core18 was never added in the first place
[14:54] <kenvandine> right
[14:54] <kenvandine> it wasn't
[14:55] <kenvandine> livecd-rootfs was supposed to be handling that
[14:57] <diddledan> well it seemingly does for the downloadable isos.. somehow the hyper-v ones were different (unavoidably they need a separate spin because they have the xrdp changes)
[14:59] <pedronis> mvo: this is the pastebin I mentioned in the standup (about core18): https://pastebin.canonical.com/p/hVfzbMmwm2/
[15:01] <diddledan> bah @ private pastes :-p
[15:02] <diddledan> how's a nosey busybody gonna watch what ya'll up to if you keep it private ;-p
[15:02] <mvo> diddledan: haha - sorry for that, its just about testing stuff
[15:02] <diddledan> for "nosey busybody" read: diddledan
[15:04] <kenvandine> https://code.launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntu/+merge/370061
[15:04] <kenvandine> https://code.launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntu/+merge/370062
[15:04] <kenvandine> https://code.launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntu/+merge/370063
[15:05] <diddledan> heh. launchpad is having a brainfart
[15:05] <diddledan> .. and it's back
[15:06] <diddledan> will need to make sure to check the images this produces that explicitly adding core18 doesn't somehow conflict with anything livecd-rootfs does
[15:07] <diddledan> I'm thinking about the non-hyper-v cases here where we had the right thing™ already
[15:08] <ackk> did something changed in recent snapds wrt /proc/PID/mounts?
[15:10] <kenvandine> diddledan: we didn't though, the latest 19.10 isos have the same problem
[15:10] <diddledan> oh ok..
[15:10] <kenvandine> it's not just hyperv
[15:10] <kenvandine> the released 19.04 and 18.04.2 isos were fine
[15:11] <diddledan> I figured they were fine 'cos bionic and cosmic seemingly did the right thing
[15:11] <zyga> ackk: what are you seeing?
[15:11] <diddledan> you need mount-observe IIRC?
[15:11] <ackk> zyga, denials on those files. not sure if they're causing issues, but I don't think they were there before
[15:12] <zyga> ackk: the mount table is a "mild information leak" so it was always denied without mount-observe AFAIR
[15:12] <ackk> zyga, I see
[15:12] <zyga> ackk: I think nothing has changed there recently
[15:14] <ackk> zyga, thanks
[15:17] <Chipaca> kenvandine: the latest 19.10 isos have a different problem, maybe, not the same
[15:17] <Chipaca> kenvandine: as they have core18, and they don't have core
[15:17] <kenvandine> ah... actually i think they wanted to drop core and add the snapd snap?
[15:18] <kenvandine> they tried that late in disco and found problems
[15:18] <kenvandine> Chipaca: so maybe attempting the same for eoan
[15:18] <kenvandine> mvo: ^^ do you recall that?
[15:18] <mvo> kenvandine: in a meeting right now
[15:18] <kenvandine> ok
[15:21] <Chipaca> kenvandine: that will only work if you have a model and the model has a base
[15:21] <kenvandine> ok, i know that's something they wanted to do.
[15:22] <Chipaca> kenvandine: given that we're getting «cannot proceed without seeding “core”»
[15:22] <Chipaca> kenvandine: then you're missing one of those two things :-)
[15:22] <Chipaca> s/you/we/
[15:22] <Chipaca> s/you/we/g
[15:25] <Chipaca> kenvandine: to be clear, you'd only get that message in three scenarios:
[15:25] <Chipaca> dammit!
[15:25] <Chipaca> kenvandine: to be clear, we'd only get that message in three scenarios:
[15:25] <Chipaca> 1. we don't have a model (wut)
[15:25] <Chipaca> 2. the model doesn't have a base
[15:25] <Chipaca> 3. the model has a base that is explicitly set to "core"
[15:26] <Chipaca> that's because that message comes from installSeedEssential
[15:26] <Chipaca> which happens before the rest of the seeding proceeds
[15:26] <kenvandine> https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/livecd-rootfs/tree/live-build/functions?h=ubuntu/eoan#n434
[15:28] <Chipaca> kenvandine: yeah, the "is the model ok with this" isn't in the picture there is it
[15:28] <kenvandine> right
[15:29] <Chipaca> snap_prepare_assertions does look into the model, so maybe it can extract this info to feed into the seeding logi
[15:29] <Chipaca> but, dunno
[15:30] <Chipaca> anyway, imma go break things for a bit
[15:30]  * Chipaca takes a break
[15:32] <kenvandine> looks to me like the disco branch has the same logic, so expects to be able to seed snapd instead of core
[15:33] <kenvandine> but the bionic branch doesn't, it does explicitly seed core
[15:33] <Chipaca> kenvandine: I don't know what model we use, but all it would take would be for it to have a core18 base
[15:33] <Chipaca> pedronis: maybe you know ^
[15:33] <pedronis> Chipaca: no base doesnt make sense for classic images
[15:34] <pedronis> it's only for core images
[15:34] <Chipaca> pedronis: ?
[15:34] <pedronis> what I said
[15:34] <Chipaca> pedronis: 'snap known model' on classic ubuntu 16 says we don't have a base
[15:34] <pedronis> cannot put base: core18 and classic: true in a model
[15:34] <pedronis> Chipaca: true
[15:35] <pedronis> doesn't mean core is the base
[15:35] <pedronis> there's no root base for a classic system
[15:35] <Chipaca> d'oh, i missed trivialSeeding
[15:35] <Chipaca> 	configTs := snapstate.ConfigureSnap(st, "core", 0)
[15:35] <Chipaca> grr
[15:36] <Chipaca> kenvandine: classic always needs core
[15:36] <Chipaca> pedronis: thank you
[15:36] <Chipaca> pedronis: also maybe classic always needing core is a bug
[15:36] <pedronis> it doesn't quite need core
[15:36] <pedronis> that is config
[15:36] <Chipaca> sigh
[15:36] <Chipaca> pedronis: hol' up
[15:36] <Chipaca> pedronis: there's only one place that prints that error message
[15:36] <pedronis> which error message?
[15:36] <Chipaca> pedronis: so we're obviously hitting that code path
[15:37] <Chipaca> pedronis: cannot proceed without seeding “core”
[15:37] <pedronis> Chipaca: to be clear, I'm not saying there are no bugs
[15:37] <Chipaca> :-)
[15:37] <pedronis> just makign clear that setting a base
[15:37] <pedronis> is not the answer
[15:37] <Chipaca> yeah, i got you so far
[15:38] <Chipaca> ah, we only do trivial seeding if _no_ seed is there
[15:38] <Chipaca> otherwise we do seeding as normal
[15:38] <Chipaca> and, given you can't set a base for a classic model
[15:38] <Chipaca> you'll always require core
[15:38] <pedronis> atm yes
[15:38] <Chipaca> which means adding snapd makes no sense
[15:39] <Chipaca> so that code in livecd-rootfs-wotsit is wrong, or at least ahead of its time
[15:39] <Chipaca> kenvandine: ^
[15:39] <kenvandine> ok
[15:39] <pedronis> Chipaca: we don't have tests about this
[15:39] <pedronis> classic with just snapd
[15:39] <pedronis> that's why is not worky
[15:39] <Chipaca> pedronis: well, we do now, in the shape of cd images in the wild
[15:40] <Chipaca> :)
[15:40] <Chipaca> rather expensive tests
[15:40] <pedronis> I wouldn't call it
[15:40] <pedronis> us having a test
[15:40] <pedronis> more, there is a test
[15:40] <Chipaca> make your 'we' bigger and you'll get there
[15:40] <Chipaca> :-p
[15:40] <pedronis> also why livece-rootfs shouldn't be in the game
[15:40] <pedronis> for 2nd guessing snapd
[15:42] <pedronis> Chipaca: anyway just a matter of having a variant tests/main/classic-firstboot/task.yaml
[15:42] <pedronis> and fixing first boot to do sane things
[15:45] <pedronis> Chipaca: relatedly, this is still wip: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/6404
[15:50] <Chipaca> I'm going afk for a while, will be back later to EOW properly
[15:55]  * pstolowski pstolowski|afk
[17:58] <Chipaca> you know it's time to EOW when you're having to up the font size of everything
[17:58] <Chipaca> have an excellent weekend, all!
[17:58] <zyga> Chipaca: heh :)
[17:59] <zyga> Chipaca: see you after next week
[17:59] <zyga> Chipaca: enjoy the quiet days
[17:59] <Chipaca> Eighth_Doctor: still waiting on where to send pizza etc
[17:59] <zyga> (when everything is on fire and nobody picks up the phone ;-)
[17:59] <Chipaca> Eighth_Doctor: (but reach me on twitter :) )
[17:59] <Chipaca> zyga: we'll give everybody your tg contact info, no fear
[17:59] <zyga> Chipaca: excellent, I'll be somewhere between here and poland