[19:19] <owh> @now
[21:14] <owh> @now
[21:15] <okko7> 44 minutes
[21:16] <okko7> 43 minutes ...
[21:16] <Pretto> @now
[21:18] <Pretto> nixternal, monday i will put the source for the card in GPL and i will send you
[21:19] <leoquant> @schedule amsterdam
[21:50] <candtalan> Hi  is anything going on here?
[21:50] <owh> @schedule
[21:51] <owh> @now
[21:51] <John_B> imeeting starts in a few minutes
[21:51] <owh> candtalan: Well, in 8 minutes from now anyway :)
[21:54] <John_B> I'm new to all this so I figured I'd get here early in case of probs :-)
[21:54] <owh> John_B: That is a good policy. I wondered if I'd wake up with an Internet connection :)
[21:55] <owh> John_B: My satellite provider is upgrading firmware on the network :-|
[21:56] <John_B> why did your comment show up in a different color, can't read it
[21:56] <owh> Hmm. Let me look at that.
[21:57] <John_B> that one was fine maybe I need to play with the settings???
[21:57] <owh> John_B: How is this comment?
[21:57] <owh> And what about the second one?
[21:57] <John_B> the lastt 2 were fine
[21:57] <owh> All good then :)
[21:58] <John_B> let's hope so LOL
[21:59] <John_B> with my screqy vision I have enuf probs as it is. let's not complicate things LOL
[21:59] <John_B> that helpes
[22:00] <owh> So, are people around for our ubuntu-marketing meeting?
[22:00] <johnc4510> +1
[22:00] <Flannel> yep
[22:01] <John_B> what is CTCP VERSION??????
[22:01] <hubuntu> +1
[22:01] <sbc> o/
[22:01] <candtalan> yep
[22:01] <owh> #startmeeting
[22:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:03. The chair is owh.
[22:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[22:01] <owh> Welcome to the Ubuntu-Marketing Team meeting.
[22:01] <owh> [LINK] The agenda for today's meeting is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Agenda
[22:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  The agenda for today's meeting is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Agenda
[22:01] <owh> Given that agenda, we have our work cut out for us. There are two hours set aside for this meeting.
[22:01] <owh> Lets start with introductions, as we're all probably wondering who does what and why?
[22:01] <owh> [TOPIC] Introductions and Role Call
[22:01] <owh> I'm Onno Benschop. I'm a self-employed developer and troubleshooter. I'm a member of the ubuntu-server team and came to ubuntu-marketing because our team needed marketing resources for a survey we're about to launch. I volunteered to chair this meeting.
[22:01] <owh> Note to self: Waking up at 2am to prepare for a meeting at 5am is bad timing or poor volunteering :-)
[22:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Introductions and Role Call
[22:02] <owh> Introduce yourselves...
[22:02] <hubuntu> alphabetical order?
[22:02] <candtalan> hi I am in uk and am active at local computer fairs and exhibitions near me
[22:02] <sbc> Hi everyone. I'm Søren, student and teacher from Copenhagen. I'm involved in the Dansih Team, and only joined the marketing mailing list a few days ago.
[22:03] <owh> hubuntu: Just send it down the line :)
[22:03] <John_B> John Botscharow from USA former marketing consultant online, now writer and blogger
[22:03] <okko7> Simon here. Civil engineer and MBA student.
[22:04] <Flannel> Neal Bussett, LoCo leader for Ubuntu California
[22:04]  * johnc4510 is John, ubuntu arizona team leader, uwn co-editor, fridge editor, ubuntu member
[22:05] <owh> 5
[22:05] <owh> 4
[22:05] <owh> 3
[22:05] <owh> 2
[22:05] <pep> Pierre, student and member of ubuntu-be... probably just listening/reading :)
[22:05] <owh> 1
[22:05] <owh> Last chance...
[22:06] <owh> I would like to take this opportunity to thank those existing team members - old and new - who have put many hours of labour into this team already so we may ride on their coat tails into our future.
[22:06] <hubuntu> Hello. My name is Rubén Romero, I'm a student and work as a Project manager and IT consultant. I live in Norway, but I'm from Ecuador. I am the contact member for the Ubuntu Ecuador LoCo and participate in the Norwegian LoCo as well. Work on the Spanish LoCo cooperation team. I have worked with sales (as salesman and couch), manager.
[22:06] <owh> Our major discussion point today is the "Mission Statement".
[22:06] <owh> I've taken the agenda and broken it down into little baby steps so we can have a chance to get through it :-)
[22:06] <owh> [TOPIC] Define what we want to accomplish in the long term - goals
[22:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Define what we want to accomplish in the long term - goals
[22:06] <owh> The mailing list is full of comments and discussion on this topic so I'm guessing none of you is shy about expressing their notions.
[22:06] <owh> Comments...
[22:07] <John_B> Has everyone read John V's proposal????
[22:07] <owh> Hmm, mootbot isn't playing.
[22:07] <candtalan> can someone start with basic goals?
[22:08] <BHSPitLappy> It begins... :(
[22:08] <hubuntu> wow...
[22:08] <okko7> Goal proposal: Coordination among all the marketing efforts that are going on
[22:08] <John_B> what was that
[22:09] <BHSPitLappy> Netsplit.  Freenode has the flu.
[22:09] <hubuntu> just a mini-earthquake.. don't worry
[22:09] <John_B> U'm not sure how to do this but I think the best way for us to accomplish everything we need to do toay is to accept that proposal as our stating point
[22:09] <bbyever> sorry im late
[22:09] <Flannel> John_B: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2008-June/003149.html that proposal, correct?
[22:10] <John_B> but first we need to set the rule for a quorum
[22:10] <okko7> I think this proposal is a good start. So I would - except if there are major problems with it, accept it, but just for intermediate periode of time.
[22:11] <okko7> In the same time I'd propose to elect an intermediate team who's task it is to finalise this.
[22:11] <okko7> (among other tasks...)
[22:11] <hubuntu> Honestly I agree with VidAs comment on the proposition being too far away from the rest of the community in term of titles. It just does not work that way and it seems to me to be far away for what the CoC represnent within the Ubuntu Community
[22:12] <owh> Well, that's nice, you chair a meeting and the server goes away :)
[22:12] <owh> So, what did I miss :)
[22:12] <hubuntu> besides that, the proposal is a good starting point
[22:12] <pep> (how about all connecting to a same server, to prevent the meeting being interrupted? kornbluth.freenode.net for example...)
[22:12] <hubuntu> ok
[22:12] <hubuntu> what server?
[22:12] <owh> Excellent suggestion pep.
[22:12] <pep> I suggest kornbluth....
[22:12] <hubuntu> what if wre use: /server irc.ubuntu.com
[22:13] <hubuntu> it's kubrick I think
[22:13] <owh> Ok, we'll follow hubuntu's suggestion.
[22:13] <pep> no... it is still using the network i think... better connect directly to a server.. kubrick is fine for me just make one out :) owh?
[22:13] <pep> ok kubrick
[22:14] <owh> Crap, pidgin doesn't support swapping servers.
[22:14] <John_B> how do I do that? Remember I am a newbie LOL
[22:15] <owh> John_B: When you choose an irc server, set it's name in your account.
[22:15] <owh> BRB
[22:15] <okko7> John: are you using Pidgin?
[22:15] <John_B> XChat
[22:15] <hubuntu> good
[22:15] <hubuntu> then just use
[22:15] <pep> (ok, back on kubrick...)
[22:15] <hubuntu> this commando john: /server irc.ubuntu.com
[22:15] <hubuntu> after that
[22:16] <hubuntu> use: /join #ubuntu-meeting
[22:16] <hubuntu> and you'll be back
[22:16] <John_B> but where do I put the commant??????
[22:16] <hubuntu> in the text line :)
[22:17] <owh> Right, my last contribution to this meeting was this: The mailing list is full of comments and discussion on this topic so I'm guessing none of you is shy about expressing their notions.
[22:17] <pep> I don't want to cut you.. but irc.ubuntu.com does not forward to kubrick, it is just a general network host... jsut like irc.freenode;net... better type in kubrick.freenode.net if we ant to be on kubrick...
[22:17] <pep> but nevermind :)
[22:17] <hubuntu> really pep? DIdn't know that...
[22:17] <hubuntu> owh, go on please
[22:17] <owh> Lets move on.
[22:17] <pep> hubuntu: well, here (belgium) it forwards me to kornbluth... but let's go on...
[22:18] <owh> So, what notions do people have for the goals for this team?
[22:18] <John_B> irc.ubuntu.com
[22:18] <John_B> join #ubuntu-meeting
[22:19] <owh> There was no shortage of comment on the list, why is everyone now so shy?
[22:19] <John_B> not sure i did that right
[22:19] <owh> John_B: IRC commands start with a '/'
[22:19] <candtalan> not shy here just unfamiliar with the technology!
[22:19] <pep> nevermind :) as long as you're here ;)
[22:19] <owh> candtalan: Nothing wrong with that :)
[22:19] <John_B> same here LOL
[22:19] <owh> Right, well, I'll start the ball rolling then...
[22:20] <John_B> the proposal is the best starting point anyone has offered
[22:20] <owh> Some suggestions were to act as a team that does marketing for Ubuntu, other suggestions were to act as a resource point for other Ubuntu community members.
[22:20] <John_B> as far as titles go, they are only titles. we can change them
[22:21] <owh> John_B: We're not anywhere near "titles" at this point, just the goals.
[22:21] <owh> [TOPIC] Define what we want to accomplish in the long term - goals
[22:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Define what we want to accomplish in the long term - goals
[22:21] <hubuntu> some suggestions involve both approaches
[22:21] <owh> So, are there any views on this?
[22:21] <John_B> did you all see the FWD I sent to the list about the Damish team
[22:22] <John_B> If enough teams go legal entity, that changes everything
[22:22] <candtalan> goal to include overview discussion an dstrategy
[22:22] <okko7> It's not just about the title, I think that the approach, the structure, the goals and so on need to be reworked so that people can really identify with it. That's why I'd suggest to adopt the proposal but just for a limited time.
[22:22] <John_B> we then have all kinds of marketing optiona
[22:22] <okko7> One point a new team could then work on would also be to think about the question of the legal entity.
[22:22] <hubuntu> John_B, really that is something that is at a discussion level in the loco list
[22:22] <Flannel> John_B: The marketing options don't really change based on the incorporation of LoCo teams
[22:22] <hubuntu> not something we should take into account right now
[22:22] <pep> regarding the decentralised organisation of our community, it does not have much point to centralise the marketing in my opinion... but make sure all efforts are going the same way, and no efforts are made twice... so centralise information, ideas, and guidelines, more than actually leading global marketing projects...
[22:23] <hubuntu> +1 on pep
[22:23] <hubuntu> and adding:
[22:23] <owh> I have to strongly agree with pep, as I've said in the list.
[22:23] <hubuntu> centralise our effort in order to serve the decentralized efforts of the Global community as in LoCo Teams
[22:24] <owh> hubuntu: You're beginning to draft the mission statement I see :)
[22:24] <owh> Ok, so we have three proposals here as I see it:
[22:24] <owh> 1. Act as a marketing arm for Ubuntu
[22:24] <candtalan> a central list can be an information exchange it does not have to be a control mechanism
[22:24] <Flannel> Marketing really will be most effective if done through the LoCo team (people more receptive to locals rather than big far away orgs), the Marketing Team should be assisting and in a small part, offering coordination for LoCo teams if desired
[22:24] <owh> 2. Act as a repository for Ubuntu Teams
[22:25] <owh> 3. Combination of both.
[22:25] <candtalan> 2a an inffformation exchange
[22:25] <okko7> Vote for 3.
[22:25] <owh> candtalan: Yes
[22:25] <John_B> A question: how "cetralized is a Loco?
[22:25] <Flannel> John_B: depends a lot on the LoCo, and depends on your definition of centralized
[22:25] <owh> okko7: I'm worried that if you try to be everything for everyone, you loose focus as has happened in the past.
[22:26] <pep> I go tend more to 2 ....
[22:26] <John_B> or the Developers team>
[22:26] <hubuntu> LoCos are people acting locally representing the community
[22:26] <pep> yes, maybe incoporate in the loco team a "marketing contact" role... as you have a leader, you have a marketing contact... just make marketing more important and automatically merge marketing with the loco teams... through: one contact per team. it wouldn't be "necessary" to form a team... but strongly recommended...
[22:26] <hubuntu> once again +1 on pep
[22:26] <bbyever> +1 pep
[22:26] <owh> Ok, are there additions to this list?
[22:27] <hubuntu> many teams have working groups within them as of today, and in many they ALREADY have a marketing working group
[22:27] <pep> yes, but not necessaril in close relation to the marketing team..
[22:27] <owh> hubuntu: Right, so we can assist them with central resources.
[22:27] <hubuntu> then we come in, don't we?
[22:27] <pep> yes
[22:27] <candtalan> close relationship need not be mandatory
[22:27] <owh> Do I need to put this to a vote, or is there agreement?
[22:28] <Flannel> owh: We're still having a healthy discussion
[22:28] <candtalan> please summarise the suggested agreement?
[22:28] <hubuntu> no mandatory in LoCo teams... they organize as they see fit. But maybe recommend the crewation of such a group
[22:28] <okko7> I'm not sure about the "mandatory" either.
[22:28] <hubuntu> jono, any thought in this part?
[22:28] <owh> Mandatory has never worked in teams I've been part of.
[22:29] <candtalan> mandatory would kill many motives
[22:29] <Flannel> Mandatory will not work, because this is a volunteer based org
[22:29] <Flannel> both on a LoCo level and the entire community
[22:29] <owh> Ok, so the proposal is for he marketing team to: Act as a central marketing resource for the Ubuntu Community.
[22:30] <pep> you can see the marketing team as a team of it's own, but more importantly having a contact in every loco... (I'm not sure about the sense of mandatory... :/)
[22:30] <candtalan> If th eresources are not good enough to be used, it i sno good to force things
[22:30] <pep> yes owh, I agree on that...
[22:30] <owh> Any alterations?
[22:30] <Flannel> owh: I think it'll be modified through usage as time goes on, but for now, looks good.
[22:30] <candtalan> resource includes ideas sharing
[22:31] <owh> candtalan: Yup.
[22:31] <candtalan> ok ffor me
[22:31] <hubuntu> +1 for 3.
[22:31] <John_B> I can live with it
[22:31] <candtalan> +1 ffor 3
[22:31] <owh> [IDEA] The Ubuntu Marketing Team will act as a central marketing resource for the Ubuntu Community.
[22:31] <MootBot> IDEA received:  The Ubuntu Marketing Team will act as a central marketing resource for the Ubuntu Community.
[22:31] <pep> a ressource is something you can use or not... maybe, making the importance to have a marketing contact per loco higher would benefit to solve bug #1 as it would centralize efforts... ?
[22:32] <owh> That then covers the next topic, our target market, so unless there are objections, I'll skip that.
[22:32] <pep> this is maybe a detail, but I think relatively important... get the marketing team and efforts more involved in the locos..
[22:32] <John_B> works for me
[22:32] <pep> fine
[22:33] <owh> Onto the next item.
[22:33] <owh> [TOPIC] Define the steps needed to achieve each goal - objectives
[22:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  Define the steps needed to achieve each goal - objectives
[22:33] <owh> Given our goals and our target market, what needs to be done?
[22:33] <owh> pep: Your point is what exactly?
[22:33] <Flannel> Re-establish contact with the LoCo teams/community at large
[22:33] <John_B> work out the terms of relationship with Canoncial
[22:34] <pep> to get the marketing team efforts more involved with loco teams... it joins the idea of a marketing contact per loco team...
[22:34] <owh> John_B: I've got Canonical on the list as a separate topic.
[22:34] <candtalan> marketing team members may each be themselves in a particular loco(?)
[22:34] <John_B> that way we know what we can do for the LoCos
[22:34] <pep> just raise general interaction between loco team and amrketing team..
[22:34] <owh> So far I've heard lots about LoCo's, but what about other teams, such as for example ubuntu-server?
[22:34] <pep> yes candtalan but not every loco has a marketing team member...
[22:35] <okko7> IMPORTANT: Focus seams until now to be only towards existing ubuntu users, and not the "outside world", that is Windows users.
[22:35] <Flannel> owh: LoCo teams would be the people who do a lot of the marketing (downstream) the other teams are more who we're marketing for (upstream)
[22:35] <owh> okko7: Who's focus?
[22:35] <okko7> General efforts of loco teams but also  - as it seams - the ubuntu marketing teams focus.
[22:36] <owh> Flannel: Well U-S is planning a survey which is going to end users, so they're marketing downstream.
[22:36] <John_B> and they would be more likely to have contact with Windows users on a larger scale than say the developers
[22:36] <pep> yes Flannel, these are indeed different questions I think...
[22:36] <candtalan> In principle th eloco teams would do on the ground marketing.
[22:36] <owh> okko7: Well as we've defined it, we are not catering to the outside world at present. We are catering to Ubuntu so they can cater to the outside with our help.
[22:37] <ompaul>
[22:37] <Flannel> owh: Yes, but they could just as easily ask -marketing to do it for them, or whatever.
[22:37] <okko7> Hm. I dare challenging this.
[22:37] <okko7> Marketing resources should also be available towards the outside.
[22:37] <Flannel> owh: We're not marketing *to* the LoCos, the proposal was to give the LoCos stuff to marketing to the outside world with.
[22:37] <bbyever> but they are, through the locos
[22:37] <owh> I understand the thrust of what you are both saying however...
[22:38] <pep> this joins the spreadubuntu idea....
[22:38] <owh> There are few of us and many LoCo and team members. If we can assist locally, then we can affect globally.
[22:38] <hubuntu> once more +1 on pep. Spreadubuntu, Brainstorm... a  marketing cooperation framework need definition and work
[22:38] <okko7> I have the impression that many locos are focused mostly towards the inside and only exceptionnally towards the outside.
[22:38] <candtalan> being in the marketing team would not stop me doing stuff locally as an individual
[22:39] <owh> Flannel: I understand your point, but okko7 is saying we should market outside Ubuntu.
[22:39] <owh> candtalan: Exactly.
[22:39] <Flannel> okko7: What do you mean mostly towards the inside?
[22:39] <candtalan> okko: yes loco are often inward looking
[22:40] <okko7> Example: A release party is a party organised by geeks for geeks. Newbees will very easily feel lost.
[22:40] <hubuntu> okko7 I can't agree on that.. It may be the case in some places, but not in the global community as a whole
[22:40] <pep> yes. that is why I think my idea of "strongly suggesting" each loco to have a marketing contact, would help this cooperation and centralising work... without taking the loco's fredom or doing something for them...
[22:40] <pep> freedom*
[22:40] <owh> okko7: If that is the case, then we as a team can provide resources to help change that.
[22:40] <bbyever> okko7: i have to disagree as well
[22:40] <Flannel> owh: I don't think that's a bad idea, no.  But it shouldn't be over the heads of the LoCos, since thats really what they're there for, and you don't want to insult them
[22:40] <okko7> My opinion is just that there needs to be an equilibrium between outside and inside marketing.
[22:40] <John_B> if we don't market outside, we are not really working on Bug 1
[22:41] <hubuntu> a installfest is geeks installing ubuntu for 10 times as many non-geeks
[22:41] <hubuntu> given the marketing of the event is right
[22:41] <okko7> As for now I have the impression that the outside marketing is not enough to deal with bug 1.
[22:41] <John_B> besides marketing inside is like kissing your sister LOL
[22:41] <hubuntu> what's the point on selling ubuntu to a geek that has already bought it?
[22:41] <candtalan> in loco that I know ther iare a few who are keen on marketing only, these would focus with this team
[22:41] <pep> I disagree also... but maybe the marketing team should enlighten ubunteros on how to speak to specific categories of people about ubuntu.. (the student, the litteral, the elder, the kids...)
[22:42] <okko7> Good point, pep.
[22:42] <hubuntu> pep you hit everytime... +1
[22:42] <pep> a sort of "what do I say facing a person that is X"
[22:42] <pep> thank you
[22:42] <john-vilsack> Hello all!  Apologies for my tardiness, but I did make it after all ;)
[22:42] <pep> but this is admitting that we are a tool for the locos and ubunteros of course...
[22:42] <candtalan> Hi John
[22:43] <pep> welcome
[22:43] <owh> So, one of our objectives would be to provide resources to assist LoCo's in marketing their release parties to the wider community.
[22:43] <dsas> pep: Being a loco tool and doing central campaigns aren't mutually exclusive.
[22:43] <pep> no of course...
[22:43] <bbyever> +1 owh
[22:43] <pep> you're right
[22:43] <candtalan> one of our objectives would be to provide resources to assist LoCo's -----  and encouraage?
[22:43] <owh> [IDEA] Provide resources to assist LoCo's in marketing their release parties to the wider community.
[22:43] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Provide resources to assist LoCo's in marketing their release parties to the wider community.
[22:44] <owh> Other objectives?
[22:44] <okko7> Not just release parties...
[22:44] <candtalan> can we add 'encourage'?
[22:44] <pep> owh: yes..; and maybe provide a sort of guide explaining which arguments fit which type of public... I don't know...
[22:44] <pep> what do  you think people?
[22:44] <Flannel> pep: I like the "how to talk to people" idea
[22:44] <bbyever> i saw one of those, in ubuntuforums.org
[22:44] <hubuntu> yes a how-to defining best practices for an installfest
[22:44] <nhaines> Good suggestions on effective advocacy are always in order.
[22:45] <candtalan> explaining - will be one resource
[22:45] <John_B> like it
[22:45] <owh> [IDEA] Provide resources to assist and encourage LoCo's in marketing their release parties to the wider community.
[22:45] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Provide resources to assist and encourage LoCo's in marketing their release parties to the wider community.
[22:45] <hubuntu> I made one for the Ecuador LoCo and the FLISOL
[22:45] <pep> it should push aimed-marketing...
[22:45] <owh> pep, can you phrase your suggestion as a single sentence?
[22:46] <okko7> Why limit on "release parties"? Maybe help then in generally marketing ubuntu
[22:46] <pep> I'll try ;)
[22:46] <candtalan> just limted to release parties? What about in their marketing activities or whatever?
[22:46] <hubuntu> okko7, the objectives have to be define into concrete tasks
[22:46] <nhaines> I'd like to see the Marketing Team as a place we can to go find marketing (literature) ideas and designs and templates.
[22:46] <owh> okko7: We're trying to create a list of objectives, not cover the world in one hit.
[22:46] <nhaines> For example, I just did a presentation with slides, and I intend to publish those slides.  It would be nice if I could submit the presentation to the Marketing Team for others to use.
[22:46] <John_B> leave it as general as possible - open to any opportunity
[22:47] <Flannel> owh: but still, "release parties" is a narrow aspect of the LoCos
[22:47] <hubuntu> installfest are important in the difussion of ubuntu, as many other activities are (expositions at schools, talks, etc...)
[22:47] <pep> Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, to reach different types of public... so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...
[22:47] <candtalan> I display at computer fairs, talk at clubs
[22:47] <owh> Flannel: Yes, that is true, but release parties are already a "known" thing, they come around every six months and are plan-able.
[22:47] <pep> I think you see waht I mean...
[22:47] <hubuntu> nhaines, you hit the spot: Stablish an organized repository of material that is both manageable and understandable
[22:48] <nhaines> hubuntu: exactly.  Gather the hard work that LoCo teams are already doing.
[22:48] <pep> yes
[22:48] <owh> Right, so there is another objective.
[22:48] <john-vilsack> This is in line with what I was envisioning: a central repo of materials that could be easily referenced by any aspect of the community.
[22:48] <candtalan> If it needs to be specific then no problem with release parties from me
[22:48] <owh> [IDEA] Gather the hard work that LoCo teams are already doing.
[22:48] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Gather the hard work that LoCo teams are already doing.
[22:48] <Flannel> owh: So is everything else.  We tend to have installfests as our "parties", using that specific term is overly restrictive under some intrepretations
[22:48] <owh> Flannel: Have you got a better wording?
[22:49] <pep> yes, a big gathering work will have to be done.. and sorting, classifying in a clearly structured website...
[22:49] <pep> so that it is easily re-usable
[22:49] <Flannel> owh: s/release parties/activities/
[22:49] <hubuntu> again pep we are heading towards spreadubuntu
[22:49] <owh> [IDEA] Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, to reach different types of public... so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...
[22:49] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, to reach different types of public... so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...
[22:49] <pep> hubuntu: yes... =-)
[22:49] <hubuntu> I always thought it was a good plan.,. just like spreadfirefox is
[22:49] <owh> [IDEA] Provide resources to assist and encourage LoCo's in marketing their activities to the wider community.
[22:49] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Provide resources to assist and encourage LoCo's in marketing their activities to the wider community.
[22:50] <owh> Right, so by my count we have three ideas, any other objectives?
[22:50] <candtalan> reach different types of publi - nice one yes
[22:50] <nhaines> I think a Marketing Team focusing on resources for LoCos and other individuals to reuse and build off of is going to have the quickest payoff while other objectives are in the works.
[22:50] <pep> I strongly agree with hubuntu, the spreadubuntu project should be taken up again... it should be this repository of tools that we talk of...
[22:50] <john-vilsack> I guess I should ask:  Has anyone brought up the proposal I posted to the mailing list last night?  I thought it was a fairly comprehensive direction.
[22:50] <hubuntu> yes john, we are woirking on it right nowe ;)
[22:50] <candtalan> which one please?
[22:51] <owh> john-vilsack: Yes, but we're currently going through the agenda.
[22:51] <john-vilsack> ok, just trying to catch up, thanks :)
[22:51] <owh> So, nhaines, does what we have so far cover what you expect?
[22:52] <John_B> I did
[22:52] <owh> I think we have our objectives for the moment?
[22:52] <candtalan> ok fo rme
[22:52] <nhaines> I feared that the idea was being dismissed, but yes, the last idea received was what I expect.
[22:52] <Flannel> owh: Perhaps it'd be best to summarize what we have so far
[22:52] <owh> Fair enough.
[22:53] <John_B> ok
[22:53] <owh> Provide resources to assist and encourage LoCo's in marketing their activities to the wider community.
[22:53] <owh> Gather the hard work that LoCo teams are already doing.
[22:53] <owh> Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, to reach different types of public... so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...
[22:53]  * owh had to do some fancy copy/paste :)
[22:54] <owh> Any other objectives?
[22:54] <pep> this can be framed in the spreadubuntu project no?
[22:54] <owh> pep Yup
[22:54] <owh> pep: It's on the list...
[22:54] <pep> okok.. just checking if I got it right :)
[22:55] <okko7> Perfect for me.
[22:55] <owh> Right onto the next topic.
[22:55] <owh> [TOPIC] Define a concrete mission statement for the team that reflects the goals and objectives of the team
[22:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  Define a concrete mission statement for the team that reflects the goals and objectives of the team
[22:55] <pep> yes...
[22:55] <owh> Anyone wish to take a stab at a first draft statement, no more than 25 words?
[22:55] <candtalan> so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...  restate as inappropriate person inapropriately ?
[22:56] <candtalan> ( I am elder and I woiul dlove to have xorg explained to me....)
[22:56] <owh> candtalan: Reads a bit strange, we'll work on it. Leave it for now.
[22:56] <pep> yes it was not very intelligently formed...
[22:56] <owh> candtalan: man xorg :)
[22:56] <pep> ^^
[22:56] <candtalan> :-)
[22:56] <john-vilsack> cantalan: How about "learning to speak at the technical level appropriate to the audience"?
[22:56] <pep> yes!
[22:56] <owh> Yup
[22:57] <pep> that was it, I am not a native english speaker :)
[22:57] <hubuntu> nice
[22:57] <hubuntu> but make it more people refering maybe?
[22:57] <owh> john-vilsack: So, how did you want to change this: Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, to reach different types of public... so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...
[22:58] <john-vilsack> Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, Preparing the community to speak speak the tehcnical level appropriate to the audience when talking about Ubuntu
[22:59] <candtalan> so that the audience is informed appropriate to their experience
[22:59] <pep> even if it sounds rather discriminating.... I'm afraid marketing *is* discriminating... my point was to specify clear arguments and "what to talk about" and "what to force on" depending of you audience...
[22:59] <john-vilsack> how's that?
[22:59] <John_B> elderly
[22:59] <pep> yes, I like john-vilsacks formulation..
[22:59] <candtalan> point accepted, it just needs  wording
[22:59] <owh> candtalan: So, are you happy with john-vilsack's wording?
[22:59] <John_B> I can do that once its on the wiki
[23:00] <john-vilsack> My little brother is 20 and can't check his email without throwing a keyboard...its not an aptitude limiting by age... :)
[23:00] <candtalan> john-vilsack: yes
[23:00] <pep> sure :)
[23:00] <owh> [IDEA] Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, Preparing the community to speak speak the technical level appropriate to the audience when talking about Ubuntu.
[23:00] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, Preparing the community to speak speak the technical level appropriate to the audience when talking about Ubuntu.
[23:00] <owh> Right, now that you've all had time to draft a mission statement, where are the proposals :)
[23:01] <John_B> thats good
[23:01] <john-vilsack> rofl give me a moment ;)
[23:01] <owh> Type faster will ya, we're wasting air :)
[23:02] <pep> regarding the second point, I think it important to place the sense of "interactive" nexy to "marketing ressource"... it must be clear that the goal and functioning strongly depends on the actions and feedback of the marketeers in my opinion...
[23:02] <John_B> slower is better
[23:02] <John_B> some of us have handicaps LOL
[23:02] <owh> pep: Do you mind if we leave that alone for the moment, we are an hour in and we have lots to get to.
[23:03] <pep> not at all.... I thought this was waht the seconde point was about no? o.O mission statement..
[23:03] <john-vilsack> ok, i have two.
[23:03] <owh> Bring it on.
[23:03] <john-vilsack> These are a bit wordy and rough, but you get the idea :)
[23:03] <john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team seeks to unify the voice in which our community speaks to the world about the benefits of the Ubuntu Operating Experience.
[23:03] <john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team's goal is to prepare the community with the materials and information needed to spread the word of Ubuntu to the world.
[23:03] <owh> +1 for the second one.
[23:04] <owh> -1 for the first.
[23:04] <pep> to prepare and to propose an interactive exchange point...
[23:04] <owh> IMHO :)
[23:04] <hubuntu> +1 for #2
[23:04] <owh> pep: Don't you think that just makes it overly complex?
[23:04] <hubuntu> +peps input, as usual :)
[23:05] <candtalan> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team's goal is to prepare  ----an dencourage
[23:05] <owh> +1 candtalan
[23:05] <pep> maybe... but I think it is existential... as in, without marketeers, no marketing...
[23:05] <pep> yes +1 candtalan
[23:05] <john-vilsack> I'm trying to play off the past line of my project plan, "Ubuntu by itself can sell itself to millions. Ubuntu with a unified voice can sell itself to the world."
[23:06] <john-vilsack> pep: how about "bridge the divide between---"?
[23:06] <owh> pep: If you can find a better way of wording what you mean, perhaps it would change my view.
[23:06] <candtalan> the unify has to be a voluntary accept from the lider locos though
[23:06] <candtalan> typo from the wider locos
[23:07] <owh> john-vilsack: So, what would it become?
[23:07] <john-vilsack> I don't think that's going to be a problem.  Once we start producing relevant materials, the LoCos at the very least will reference it if nothing else
[23:07] <owh> john-vilsack: Assuming you include candtalan's suggestion as well.
[23:07] <pep> i'm a little lost to tell the truth^^ i have difficulties wording this, but nevermind, it was just to get the idea of strong interaction between marketing team and other teams into the statement... but it must not be necessary...
[23:07] <candtalan> our actions will hope to get unify by  the good ideas and resources
[23:07] <john-vilsack> trying to reform it, one second
[23:08] <owh> +1 candtalan
[23:08] <hubuntu> yes, true, but take into account that the material have to be hosted in a way that makes it easy to use them, change them and make them available to others as well (like in translating material to other languages)
[23:08] <pep> hubuntu: where we rejoin the spreadubuntu ... :)
[23:08] <hubuntu> I know is not relevant now, but it has to be thought of, BEFORE implementing it
[23:08] <hubuntu> I know pep...
[23:08] <owh> hubuntu: So, we start with a marketing project, add it to rosetta, bob's you're uncle :)
[23:09] <john-vilsack> hubuntu: absolutely.  This is the most essential thing.
[23:09] <john-vilsack> hrmm.
[23:09] <owh> john-vilsack: How's the statement coming along?
[23:10] <john-vilsack> all these good ideas keep throwing me for a loop ;)  I'm back to the drawing board for a moment
[23:10] <hubuntu> yeah, something like that owh. But it has also to count regarding images and other resources as well that rosetta just won't be a good tool
[23:10] <pep> I spreadubuntu.com site, a changing, organised and clear repository of all marketing ressources provided and created by Locos over the years, as well as a clear guide is what I have in mind on a long term basis...
[23:10] <candtalan>  The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team's goal is to prepare and encourage the community with the materials and information needed to spread the word of Ubuntu to the world.
[23:11] <owh> WFM
[23:12] <candtalan> The 'encouragement' would lead hopefully to a unification too
[23:12] <owh> candtalan: You probably want to change community to 'Ubuntu Communuty'
[23:12] <candtalan> ok
[23:12] <John_B> add :with one voice" at the end
[23:13] <owh> John_B: Not needed, the LoCo's will still speak with their own voice.
[23:13] <owh> As they should!
[23:13] <owh> We're a resource, not a dictator.
[23:13] <candtalan> that sounds a bit ambitious. Who has the voice, who decides?
[23:13] <john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team serves to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to help unify the voice of Ubuntu from the enterprise to the single user.
[23:13] <owh> Indeed.
[23:14] <john-vilsack> *still massaging*
[23:14] <owh> Hmm.
[23:14] <Flannel> john-vilsack: strives instead of serves?
[23:14] <john-vilsack> I actually like putting us in a service based role :)
[23:14] <owh> Better
[23:14] <john-vilsack> but that's personal preference.
[23:14]  * owh still likes candtalan's better.
[23:15] <pep> The Ubuntu Marketing Team's goal is to provide the Ubuntu Community with a place to exchange marketing projects and tools, as well as clear guidelines to spread Ubuntu in the most effective way. (badly put... I know.. it's my problem^^)
[23:15] <John_B> with one voice means a unified marketing campaign irregardless of language
[23:15] <Flannel> john-vilsack: As long as that overtone was conscious, yep.
[23:15] <owh> The problem I have with john-vilsack's last one is that we're now speaking of external audiences, which we had already decided were not our target.
[23:15] <john-vilsack> oh ok
[23:16]  * owh doesn't really want to revisit that :)
[23:16] <hubuntu> yeah, let's go onb
[23:16] <owh> Are there other views on the matter?
[23:16] <candtalan> my suggestion was a slightly modified one from john-vilsack
[23:16] <hubuntu> I believe a refernece to the spreadubuntu project should be made
[23:16] <John_B> when did we dedice THAT???? I got the impression of the opposite
[23:16] <john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
[23:17] <pep> concise... but true...
[23:17] <john-vilsack> There's a whole lotta Ubuntu in that statement
[23:17] <candtalan> spreadubuntu would be included in the resources and encouragement surely?
[23:17] <john-vilsack> candtalan: absolutely.
[23:17] <pep> I think spreadubuntu.com will be the actual base, we're building on...
[23:18] <owh> So, everyone happy with that? Mission statement: The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
[23:18] <candtalan> +1
[23:18] <pep> maybe drop the second Ubuntu ? :/
[23:18] <hubuntu> yes, it makes it a BIG challenge, but yes +1
[23:19] <pep> I don't know, my ears are maybe not them of a native english seaker^^but else, I agree
[23:19] <Flannel> I think "Ubuntu Community" is redundant, "community" is sufficient
[23:19] <pep> yes
[23:19] <owh> We could do s/Ubuntu Community Marketing Team/Marketing Team/
[23:19] <Flannel> owh: I was talking about "by the community to"
[23:19] <pep> Flannel: +1
[23:19] <john-vilsack> pep: agreed.  Lots of Ubuntu...I think people will get it ;)
[23:19] <John_B> BIG challenges are the only ones worth tsking on LOL
[23:19] <owh> Flannel: Yes, I realise that, but we are specifically catering to the Ubuntu Community, not to the wider community directly.
[23:20] <candtalan> with great regret - I have to leave now - best wishes to all
[23:20] <pep> good bye
[23:20] <owh> candtalan: Thanks for your input.
[23:20] <john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
[23:20] <john-vilsack> ooh
[23:20] <Flannel> owh: If someone is taking something from the Ubuntu community, and using it to spread Ubuntu, they are part of the Ubuntu community
[23:20] <pep> heh
[23:20] <john-vilsack> Target specific:
[23:20] <john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by our community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
[23:20] <hubuntu> I have calculated with 3-4 hours for this meeting...
[23:21] <owh> I'm suggesting: The Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
[23:21] <pep> the "ubuntu marketing team"? :)
[23:21] <owh> hubuntu: We've got the room booked for another 40 minutes :)
[23:21] <pep> ok, agreed with owh
[23:21] <john-vilsack> We have to set ourselves apart from Canonical though.
[23:21] <hubuntu> @schedule
[23:21] <owh> john-vilsack: Our team name already does that.
[23:22] <pep> sorry^^
[23:22] <john-vilsack> so long as we are conscious of that, then I accept OWH's version
[23:22] <owh> hubuntu: Ah, we can talk for another 48 hours or so then :)
[23:22] <owh> Right, so, final go: Mission Statement: The Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
[23:22] <owh> Any objections?
[23:23] <hubuntu> no
[23:23] <hubuntu> ;)
[23:23] <john-vilsack> I like it, but does everyone think that it will translate well?  I'm trying to keep it simple.
[23:23] <owh> [IDEA] Mission Statement: The Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
[23:23] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Mission Statement: The Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
[23:23] <John_B> RODLMAO on the 48 hours
[23:23] <owh> Moving on...
[23:23] <owh> [TOPIC] Define our relationship to the Canonical marketing department
[23:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Define our relationship to the Canonical marketing department
[23:23] <owh> Given that we're two seperate entities, what relationship should we have with Canonical?
[23:23] <hubuntu> that's the translation teams work.. they now how to do that :)
[23:24] <John_B> I don't see how we can do that without talking to Canonical
[23:24] <pep> merely point out that there is professional support... but not do their work...
[23:24] <pep> we re promoting ubuntu... not the support for it
[23:24] <pep> well the ciommunity support, yes^^
[23:24] <owh> John_B: Well, technically, we could, but we can get a lot of leverage and support from Canonical, so we'd be foolish to not talk to them.
[23:24] <john-vilsack> What I propose is informational only.  Some collaboration will exist, but by and large I believe that we will be seperate yet united in our cause.
[23:24] <Flannel> pep: I think this is asking a separate question.  Specific to collaboration
[23:24] <owh> +1 john-vilsack
[23:24] <pep> exactly, +1 john-vilsack
[23:25] <hubuntu> see this  as an example: http://blog.laptopmag.com/ubuntu-netbook-remix-qa-with-canonical
[23:25] <owh> So, do we have any existing ties with Canonical?
[23:25] <Flannel> pep: Since, when dealing with large corporations and stuff, they are looking for commercial support
[23:25] <pep> Flannel: yes, I agree...
[23:25] <john-vilsack> In my doc: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dg523cct_41d8t388r5 I think we should invite a member of Canonical to sit in on Core-Marketing discussions, and have a channel open directly with them...but I wouldn't expect much more than that.
[23:25] <pep> it should be informational...
[23:26] <hubuntu> so: community based activities: Marketing Team. Commercial stuff: Canonical Marketing department?
[23:26] <john-vilsack> Exactly
[23:26] <hubuntu> give Gerry Carr, marketing manager at Canonica a call
[23:26] <john-vilsack> But at the same time, I think we can prepare information that they would use.
[23:26] <owh> Well, that implies that there will be grey areas. I think that is going to be a challenge.
[23:26] <pep> but, spreadubuntu can benefit of canonical's marketing and vice versa of course!
[23:26] <hubuntu> but wait.. I have something to add
[23:27] <owh> hubuntu: Any steak knives with that?
[23:27] <john-vilsack> I've correspnded with Gerry about this whole thing and (he?) has been following our progress.
[23:27] <hubuntu> aren't we also trying to make this a commercial ecosystem as well as a non-commercial one?
[23:27] <john-vilsack> There are some things from Canonical coming down the pipe that will be of interest to us, but nothing they could share as of yet.
[23:27] <pep> I don't think we should stay too long on this matter tonight....
[23:28] <pep> (today)
[23:28] <hubuntu> good pep, let's go on :)
[23:28] <john-vilsack> I think once we have a stable workflow in place to support the community experience we will be able to work on comparison papers, etc. to help the enterprise level.  That's where we will end up working with Canonical alot more.
[23:28] <owh> So, in answer to my question, yes, there are existing relationships with Canonical, in the form of john-vilsack.
[23:28] <hubuntu> john-vilsack, you are really doing your homework ;)
[23:28] <john-vilsack> I'm trying :)
[23:28] <owh> Any further points about this topic?
[23:28] <pep> not for me.
[23:29] <owh> [TOPIC] Develop a better system of internal communications
[23:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  Develop a better system of internal communications
[23:29] <owh> At the moment we have several locations where sometimes incomplete or out of date information lives. Some of the URLs I have are incomplete.
[23:29] <owh> [LINK] Launchpad page: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-marketing
[23:29] <owh> [LINK] Wiki pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam
[23:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  Launchpad page: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-marketing
[23:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  Wiki pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam
[23:29] <owh> [LINK] Mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
[23:29] <owh> [LINK] IRC: irc://freenode.net/ubuntu-marketing
[23:29] <owh> [LINK] Forum: http://ubuntuforums.org/
[23:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  Mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
[23:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  IRC: irc://freenode.net/ubuntu-marketing
[23:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  Forum: http://ubuntuforums.org/
[23:29] <owh> Are there any other places where we have information that we "own".
[23:29] <pep> this will be centralised with spreadubuntu.com I hope...
[23:29] <owh> pep: Well, at the moment spreadubuntu.com just goes to the ubuntu home page.
[23:30] <john-vilsack> +1 pep  If we can use spreadubuntu for the "final products", this would be the best place to do it.
[23:30] <pep> yes, sure.. but that's just a matter of redirecting a URL ...
[23:30] <Flannel> owh: The wiki.
[23:30] <Flannel> Oh, you have that.
[23:30] <owh> Are there any other resources I didn't list?
[23:31] <john-vilsack> Do we have access to web design and developers that would be able to help us build out spreadubuntu?
[23:31] <pep> we could I think...
[23:31] <owh> john-vilsack: Look around you :)
[23:31] <john-vilsack> rofl  touche. :)
[23:31] <owh> pep: ?
[23:31] <Flannel> john-vilsack: Wiki may be a better place, it's more accessible for a lot of people
[23:31] <pep> should not be too great problem in my opinion... the problem is to have a clear view of HWO this should present... topic of a future meeting I suggest...
[23:32] <John_B> depends on what you need, I can do some
[23:32] <owh> Yeah, I'm personally in favour of using a Wiki. It will allow editing by the users which is our aim.
[23:32] <pep> HOW
[23:32] <pep> sorry...
[23:32] <owh> Ok, moving on.
[23:32] <john-vilsack> I think the wiki would be easier for internal discussion/task management.  But I see spreadubuntu as a "Download Ubuntu" "Find Local Fans" "Start a Local Club" "Get More Information" type of deal...
[23:33] <nhaines> +1 john-vilsack
[23:33] <okko7> It will also be necessary to collect existing documents from loco webpages.
[23:33] <owh> The list of resources is what we have today, the next topic goes to the heart of how we use them.
[23:33] <John_B> you are assuming they will know how to use a wqiki BAD assume
[23:33] <Flannel> john-vilsack: SU is where you go for a website, not for LoCo content stuffs
[23:33] <hubuntu> wiki + spreadubuntu download site +1
[23:33] <pep> I don't know... I think a website, but editable, in wiki theory, would be of greater advantage... something that gives a clear overview, enabling to browse through our ressource archive...
[23:33] <pep> dynamically
[23:33] <pep> okko7: yes, collecting and filing all information will be a big work...
[23:34] <pep> +1 on john-vilsack
[23:34] <owh> John_B: The point of a Wiki is that the entry level required is low, that is, it's simple to learn if you have a need.
[23:34] <john-vilsack> Flannel:  but hopefully we can take the good work the LoCos have done and spread it around to the other LoCos and the rest of the Ubuntu Community.  They may have done alot of what we want already.  We just have to help centralize it.
[23:34] <hubuntu> okko7, that means collaboration with existing marketing groups among the LoCos and recopilation from ramdomd wikis of groups not having a marketing contact/group
[23:34] <owh> Let me start the next topic to get some structure here :)
[23:35] <Flannel> john-vilsack: Right, but there's no reason to take that content (which is already on places like /DIYMarketing) and move a particular version to a separate site which is difficult for most to update/append/etc
[23:35] <john-vilsack> owh: exactly.  SU will be for final, polished product....call it "Our Distribution" so to speak of final products.  The Wiki is great for getting it to that point.
[23:35] <hubuntu> john-vilsack, you are right. We are working on that within the SPanish community right now
[23:35] <John_B> there are a number of php scripts like Drupal that would work very nicely and do not regquire much technical knowleged
[23:35] <owh> [TOPIC] Discuss possible guideline for the mailing list to better organize the threads
[23:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss possible guideline for the mailing list to better organize the threads
[23:35] <owh> I think this is more to do with how we harness our ideas, than "better organising the threads".
[23:35] <john-vilsack> Flannel: Right, but we can link to it or offer to have them "merge" it into the....don't laugh... "Marketing Kernel"
[23:35] <hubuntu> regarding marketing material as well as other material (documentation, translations, etc..)
[23:35] <owh> As I see it, the mailing list, irc and any forums are means to communicate, not to store information. The Wiki should be for that.
[23:35] <pep> Flannel: the "site" idea is to present something else, more dynamic.. but nothing keeps this site from being as editable and accessible as a wiki would be imo...
[23:35] <John_B> I can set it up. My own site is Drupal
[23:36] <pep> ok, next point.
[23:36] <owh> I don't want to get into hosting issues today.
[23:37] <owh> So, the topic infers that we need to be a little more disciplined in our information management.
[23:37] <hubuntu> you can have both: http://www.spreadfirefox.com/
[23:37] <pep> (I agree on john-vilsack idea of the roles of wiki and SU)
[23:37] <pep> but we are not talking of the current topic I think :)
[23:37] <owh> The list as I see it is a dynamic discussion to formulate ideas. We then have distribution outlets of some type to spread those resources.
[23:37] <okko7> Along with the question on how we organise ourselves (structuring the team eventually with sub-groups) it might be better to do the same with the mailinglists (or other communication channels).
[23:38] <owh> okko7: Too much decentralisation leads to communication issues.
[23:38] <owh> The agenda point was really to do with how we contribute to the mailing list.
[23:38] <pep> owh: to be honest, I often don't read most of the lists mails... it is very disorganised and difficult to follow a particular subject when people modifiy the email subject...
[23:38] <owh> I expanded it to include information sharing.
[23:38] <nhaines> Usually, people modify the subject line only when the topic changes.
[23:39] <okko7> owh: Of course. We need to find the right equilibrium. To much centralisation is not perfect either.
[23:39] <pep> :/
[23:39] <Flannel> pep: Most clients can thread stuff, and even if the subject changes, there are internal IDs that'll keep threads together
[23:39] <hubuntu> probably everyone on the list should have the emails sent right away and no option to have digests
[23:39] <hubuntu> that really helps a lot
[23:39] <owh> I agree with pep. Most of that has to do with people writing big screeds of text, rather than posting a URL and a summary.
[23:39] <pep> yes, true...
[23:40] <pep> maybe this will set itself once clear objectives for the team are defined, and we get working on spreadubuntu...
[23:40] <pep> actively...
[23:40] <nhaines> That's what mailing lists are for: discussion.  For a list of links you want RSS and Blueprints.
[23:40] <owh> I'd have to hope so pep.
[23:40] <John_B> but the posts on a lot of threads go off subject but don;t modify the subject line to reflect that
[23:40] <okko7> It's not just a users question. It's just that one single mailinglist where EVERYTHING linked to marketing is discussed leads to an overflow of information that is difficult to follow up completly.
[23:40] <owh> nhaines: The lists that I am part of that are most successful are succinct, rather than verbose.
[23:41] <nhaines> owh: The trouble is that URLs disappear but ML archives are forever.
[23:41] <pep> that is why we are now excluding concrete actions, and porting them to active/local level... and setting more importance on centralisation of tools and these concrete projects to use on local levels.. no?
[23:41] <owh> nhaines: Right, but if the point was worth making, then it would create a resource that ended up in the published information.
[23:42] <owh> +1 pep
[23:42] <nhaines> owh: I disagree.  Discussion and metainformation is more important than just having a shiny product.
[23:42] <nhaines> We transmit cultural knowledge by remembering why decisions were made and others dropped.
[23:42] <john-vilsack> I think if we go with the idea of a multiple leaders championing all the different aspects we have to be worried about, I don't see why we can't use the wiki to keep current events summarized...
[23:42] <Flannel> owh: Except in a year URLs get broken and you lose that information
[23:43] <pep> yes... the problem lies in WHAT we talk about I think... which will solve itself once new objectives will be clearly stated and reminded I think...
[23:43] <owh> Ok, so what proposal do you have nhaines and Flannel?
[23:43] <owh> +1 pep
[23:44] <nhaines> Proposal: the mailing list should be used to discuss new marketing ideas as well as current projects, and to collaborate with others on the Marketing Team goals.
[23:44] <owh> WFM
[23:44] <owh> Other views?
[23:44] <pep> yes..
[23:45] <pep> "discuss new marketing ideas as well as current projects" ? would this lead to "sorting" the projects on SU?
[23:45] <hubuntu> should the loco marketing contacts put their input into the list?
[23:45] <hubuntu> or formally become part of this group?
[23:45] <nhaines> pep: The mailing list should be used for all discussion.
[23:45] <pep> mh.. this is where I think the fragility lies...
[23:45] <nhaines> Anything that then needs more real-time discussion can be put on the next IRC meeting agenda.
[23:45] <owh> hubuntu: I think they should be able to contribute, just like they can in any other team.
[23:46] <pep> it should be used merely for achieving the objectives we fixed ourselves for the moment I think...
[23:46] <nhaines> I'm not big on the idea of formal LoCo marketing contacts.  I think it's better to be more open than that.
[23:46] <owh> I'm wondering which issue in particular pep is concerned about with respect to nhaines's proposal.
[23:46] <john-vilsack> I think its a good place for people to share what they think too.  Its always easy to filter a subject out that doesn't concern you.
[23:46] <pep> once, SU and the organisational and exchange instance is set up and runnning it can turn more to concrete marketing discussions I think...
[23:47] <pep> I fear of loosing of sight our primary goals we set ourselves on short term basis owh
[23:47] <hubuntu> LoCo marketing groups is better nhaines... A specialized group of people within the LoCo gathering the information and resources we are working on to local ground level
[23:47] <nhaines> hubuntu: yes, but that should be a LoCo matter and not of any direct concern for the Marketing Team.
[23:47] <owh> pep: Isn't that what our regular IRC meeting will be there for?
[23:47] <pep> that is: SU, the exchange platform.... the building blocks organisation..
[23:48] <nhaines> hubuntu: I agree with you in principal, though.  :)
[23:48] <pep> owh: yes you are righ tI suppose, that is a way of organising..
[23:48] <hubuntu> yes nhaines, this would obviously apply to locos which have such a contact/team, no inforcement of any kind by the LoCo council or any other instance
[23:48] <owh> Ok, so, the proposal is: the mailing list should be used to discuss new marketing ideas as well as current projects, and to collaborate with others on the Marketing Team goals.
[23:48] <nhaines> +1
[23:48] <john-vilsack> +1
[23:48] <pep> yes.
[23:48] <Flannel> owh: mailing lists used as a mailing list, yep.  +1
[23:48] <pep> +A
[23:48] <pep> +1
[23:49] <owh> [IDEA] The mailing list should be used to discuss new marketing ideas as well as current projects, and to collaborate with others on the Marketing Team goals.
[23:49] <MootBot> IDEA received:  The mailing list should be used to discuss new marketing ideas as well as current projects, and to collaborate with others on the Marketing Team goals.
[23:49] <hubuntu> I believe other LoCos will, eventually, see this works and implement it, just like my LoCo has done ;)
[23:49] <owh> Next topic.
[23:49] <nhaines> hubuntu: doubtless.  ;)
[23:49] <hubuntu> +1
[23:49] <owh> [TOPIC] Discuss setting up a team forum for discussion of topics that need a more structured record of the conversation
[23:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss setting up a team forum for discussion of topics that need a more structured record of the conversation
[23:49] <owh> There was some discussion about forum vs. email and I think that both have their proponents. Is there any strong feeling about this?
[23:49] <nhaines> I find that I really don't follow forums, but that mailing lists are more concrete for me.
[23:49] <owh> Personally, I don't like a forum and too many places for discussion causes communication issues.
[23:49] <hubuntu> forums -1
[23:50] <John_B> we discussed this on the list and the consensus was no forum
[23:50] <nhaines> Too redundant with the ML.  -1
[23:50] <dsas> forums are more structured?
[23:50] <Flannel> owh: mailing list tends to work better for people, can download all messages and read them offline, etc.
[23:50] <hubuntu> one place to rule them all: list for discusion, wiki for action [PERIOD]
[23:50] <owh> Flannel: I agree.
[23:50] <john-vilsack> Even though I think forums are more structured for threading, easier to search, and easier for others to participate in, it seemed like it was shot down in the mailing list.
[23:50] <pep> I prefer email... but that would mean a sub-list linked specifically to spreadubuntu project for example.... as our list aprticipants are very numerous...
[23:50] <pep> or not?
[23:51] <owh> I spent a few hours trying to come up with a search tool for the list, so far I cannot embed a form into a wiki. I'll keep at it.
[23:51] <Flannel> pep: No, just decent subjects
[23:51] <nhaines> With all due respect, I think spreadubuntu can be something that is considered in detail once the core team objectives are decided upon.
[23:51] <hubuntu> yes pep, SpreadUbuntu is a project of itself with its own structure
[23:51] <pep> +1 hubuntu, adding: IRC for re-setting the aim on the correct line/not losing our objective of sight...
[23:51] <owh> pep: We'll get to the IRC meeting very shortly :)
[23:51] <owh> [TOPIC] Discuss ways to improve the team wiki
[23:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss ways to improve the team wiki
[23:51] <owh> Comments?
[23:52] <owh> I'm looking for specific simple ideas here.
[23:52] <Flannel> owh: There are some list mirrors out there that support searching and stuff, gmane actually already has it: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.marketing
[23:52] <hubuntu> whatever you do, do either: use the ubuntu wiki
[23:52] <pep> keep team wiki for the team manly... spreadubuntu for marketeers...
[23:52] <hubuntu> or implement openID using launchpad as provider
[23:52] <hubuntu> I just can't stand registering myself in many places
[23:52] <owh> Flannel: Excellent, I'll update the wiki.
[23:52] <pep> mainly*
[23:52] <John_B> There are a lot of resources out in Ubuntu land that need to be linked to the wiki
[23:52] <nhaines> Wiki is better.  LP's OpenID support still needs some refinement.
[23:53] <hubuntu> I believe EVERY SINGLE part of the ubuntu community should implement that
[23:53] <owh> [ACTION] owh to update wiki to include gmain search link.
[23:53] <MootBot> ACTION received:  owh to update wiki to include gmain search link.
[23:53] <pep> +1 hubuntu
[23:53] <nhaines> Ooh, that's good.
[23:53] <owh> There is a project underway in ubuntu-server to unify search as well.
[23:54] <hubuntu> pep +1 spreadubuntu for marketers, wiki for the team
[23:54] <John_B> about time LOL
[23:54] <owh> So, we cannot ourselves update the wiki software to implement OpenID, but we can add it as a todo.
[23:54] <john-vilsack> I think having leaders with ownership in specific areas will dramatically increase the quality of the wiki as a whole.
[23:54] <dsas> the wiki is being upgraded shortly
[23:54] <pep> it would be a general ubuntu-todo
[23:54] <owh> Who wants to take that in hand?
[23:54] <nhaines> john-vilsack: +1
[23:54] <hubuntu> if spreadubuntu uses drupal, for instance, openID is easy to implement
[23:55] <Flannel> owh: offtopic, but -server is on gmane as well: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.server
[23:55] <dsas> A newer version of moinmoin is being tested now.
[23:55] <hubuntu> launchpad.net login to login everywhere should be the goal
[23:55] <pep> +1 hubuntu
[23:55] <nhaines> hubuntu: +1 there as well.
[23:55] <owh> Flannel: Yeah, the search is ubuntu-wide.
[23:55] <hubuntu> moinmoins new version support it too
[23:55] <owh> So, any other ideas to improve the wiki?
[23:55] <owh> [IDEA] Implement LP OpenID on the wiki
[23:55] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Implement LP OpenID on the wiki
[23:56] <john-vilsack> 5 minutes left.
[23:56] <pep> :)
[23:56] <hubuntu> we should go on till it's over
[23:56] <owh> Next topic:
[23:56] <owh> [TOPIC] Establish guideline for new content
[23:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  Establish guideline for new content
[23:56] <hubuntu> the channel is not to be used by anyone else
[23:56] <john-vilsack> ok good.  I was getting worried there!
[23:56] <owh> I agree with hubuntu, but I'm mindful that not all will be able to.
[23:56] <pep> Establish guideline for new content? you mean focusing content of discussions on our previsouly redefined goals?
[23:56] <owh> This topic to me is a little premature.
[23:57] <john-vilsack> Agreed.  We gotta set the table before we can start to eat :)
[23:57] <owh> Objections?
[23:57] <hubuntu> owh can you extend the time for activity by mootbot or is it not necessary?
[23:57] <owh> [TOPIC] Discuss better integration of marketing related content that already exists on the Ubuntu wiki from other teams
[23:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss better integration of marketing related content that already exists on the Ubuntu wiki from other teams
[23:57] <owh> hubuntu: Dunno
[23:57] <owh> I think this topic has the same problem.
[23:58] <pep> this topic will be looked on after having the infrastructure to implement the existing content in imo...
[23:58] <dsas> guys openid is already implemented for the wiki
[23:58] <hubuntu> wait this topic is more relevant than the previous one
[23:58] <dsas> it's just being tested now.
[23:58] <dsas> https://testwiki.ubuntu.com/
[23:58] <hubuntu> dsas given we use some other wiki or drupal or whatever
[23:58] <owh> dsas: Excellent, can you report to us next meeting?
[23:58] <dsas> owh: It's only by fluke I'm here now.
[23:59] <dsas> owh: So maybe, depends when it is.
[23:59] <owh> dsas: You'll use the list then :)
[23:59] <pep> wow looks good
[23:59] <dsas> (it has been in testing for a while)
[23:59] <john-vilsack> I think its tough to talk about merging content from the other groups until we have envoys from those groups and we have a place to merge them to :)
[23:59] <hubuntu> in the wiki it's not an issue as thelaunchpad login ID is the same as  wiki login ID
[23:59] <owh> [ACTION] dsas to report on LP OpenID for the wiki using appropriate method.
[23:59] <pep> +1 john-vilsack, it is what I meant
[23:59] <MootBot> ACTION received:  dsas to report on LP OpenID for the wiki using appropriate method.
[23:59] <dsas> hubuntu: check the link I pasted, press login.
[23:59] <owh> hubuntu: So, what did you mean?


[07:35] <lag> bug 695274
[07:35] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 695274 in linux (Ubuntu) "WARNING: at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.35/net/sched/sch_generic.c:258 dev_watchdog+0x1fd/0x210() (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/695274
[12:07] <trapicki> I've a problem with partition sizes and kernel reported disk size. Partitions seem to extend beyond the end of the disk.
[12:09] <trapicki> Kernel is 2.6.35-24-generic. Seems like Linux calculates the disk size too small. The partition is NTFS and works fine on Windows XP and Windows 7.
[14:49] <trapicki> Anyone an idea about the disk size/capacity problem? I read the Large Disk HOWTO (a little old, anyway), and there seem to have been issues with disk capacity and reported C/H/S . My disk is attached via USB, no idea how capacity is calculated for USB mass storage.
[14:51] <czr> trapicki, capacity is "calculated" by the device reporting it in LBA sectors.
[14:51] <czr> trapicki, how large is the device?
[14:52] <trapicki> Hello czr! The drive is 2TB, more like 1.83 TiB.
[14:52] <czr> what does blockdev --getsize /dev/sdX report?
[14:52] <trapicki> # blockdev --getsize /dev/sdh
[14:52] <trapicki><PHONE_NUMBER>
[14:53] <czr> right. that's just shy above 2TB
[14:53] <czr> which shouldn't cause a problem at all.
[14:54] <czr> can you use pastebin and put the contents of fdisk -l -u /dev/sdh there?
[14:54] <czr> also, prepend to that the contents of : grep sdh /proc/partitions
[14:55]  * czr runs for a smoke meanwhile, brb
[14:58] <czr> trapicki, you still here?
[14:59] <trapicki> czr: see http://pastebin.com/ww7QARuk
[15:00] <czr> hmm. that is severely broken
[15:01] <trapicki> I found quite some reports of that problem with disks not ending at a cylinder. See http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1603349.html Comment srs5694
[15:01] <trapicki> October 28th, 2010, 11:39 PM
[15:02] <trapicki> Is there any way to find out where the calculation went wrong?
[15:02] <czr> yes. the partition table looks really suspect
[15:02] <czr> what did you use to create it?
[15:03] <czr> good news is that the kernel detects the disk size correctly, so it's not a driver problem
[15:03] <trapicki> The drive was shipped with this partition by WD. Works fine on WinXP and Win7.
[15:03] <czr> however, when it starts parsing the partitions, it will get into trouble very quickly, resulting in incorrect /proc/partitions, and hence, completely incorrect view of the disk
[15:04] <trapicki> Of course, a partition stretching beyond the end of the disk is not sane.
[15:04] <czr> let me dig around a bit
[15:04] <trapicki> I checked the partition table, is MBR, no GPT.
[15:08] <czr> trapicki, right. pastebin the following: 1) sudo parted, 2) unit s 3) print
[15:08] <czr> parted is interactive, so enter 2 and 3 as commands
[15:09] <czr> I remembered there was a tool just to dump the "semiraw" contents of partition table, but rememberd that I had to write the tool myself some years back (can't find it now)..
[15:10] <trapicki> # parted /dev/sdh
[15:10] <trapicki> GNU Parted 2.3
[15:10] <trapicki> Using /dev/sdh
[15:10] <trapicki> Welcome to GNU Parted! Type 'help' to view a list of commands.
[15:10] <trapicki> (parted) unit s
[15:10] <trapicki> (parted) print
[15:10] <trapicki> Error: Can't have a partition outside the disk!
[15:10] <trapicki> (parted)
[15:10] <trapicki> Sorry.
[15:12] <czr> heh. ok then.
[15:12] <trapicki> czr, you said the kernel detected the size correctly. But when the partitions are scanned, the partition size is truncated:
[15:12] <czr> seems that the WD comes with broken partition table
[15:12] <czr> yes. I said the kernel detected the disk size correctly.
[15:12] <trapicki> [    4.373991] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdh] Assuming drive cache: write through
[15:12] <trapicki> [    4.373996]  sdh: sdh1
[15:12] <trapicki> [    4.389915] sdh: p1 size<PHONE_NUMBER> extends beyond EOD, enabling native capac
[15:12] <czr> no need to paste here
[15:12] <czr> I read your pastebin from earlier
[15:12] <czr> http://community.wdc.com/t5/Other-Externals/2TB-WD-Elements-HD-can-t-reformat/td-p/37535
[15:12] <czr> seems like a common issue
[15:13] <czr> the fact that it happens to work in windows is not really of interest. the fact that people have to remove the volume and recreate it in order to make a filesystem (in windows) does signal that it's not really an issue in how linux works.
[15:14] <czr> so. linux does the right thing, even if it's not the same thing as your windows.
[15:15] <trapicki> I really do not want to repartition the drive. Lots of stuff on it, and as it's one of the biggest currently available, its not that easy to backup. Given the table is right and the capacity is reported wron
[15:15] <czr> the table is not right.
[15:16] <trapicki>  is there any way to find out which steps are taken to calculate the drive capacity?
[15:16] <czr> now, if you're really desperate, you could make a dm mapping (for example with kpartx tools) and manually set the start and ending sectors for the dm volume slice.
[15:16] <czr> which you could then attempt to mount
[15:18] <czr> trapicki, here are the steps: http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v2.6.36/fs/partitions/msdos.c#L432
[15:19] <trapicki> I guess the drive size is queried via usb mass storage directly from the drive, right?
[15:19] <trapicki> Thanks for the hint btw.
[15:21] <czr> yes
[15:21] <czr> the drive size is detected correctly
[15:21] <czr> but let me think a bit. you're using 32-bit host, right?
[15:22] <trapicki> no, 64bit. Linux corvusmons 2.6.35-24-generic #42-Ubuntu SMP Thu Dec 2 02:41:37 UTC 2010 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[15:24] <czr> hmm. yes. the partition doesn't actually run off that much off the disk
[15:24] <czr> fdisk has internal issues when doing the -l, which is why the values are whacked there
[15:25] <czr> so, the fact that the kernel will clip the partition sizes to end at the disk end would mean that some ntfs structures at the end of the disk wouldn't be accessible
[15:25] <czr> and there's really no good way around that if you plan to use the ntfs in anyway
[15:25] <czr> even the kpartx trick won't work
[15:26] <czr> so, I'm out of help here. the issue isn't in linux. the issue is with the incorrect partition table contents, and probably also ntfs boot device descriptor. windows works around it (but will probably eventually stop working), linux refuses to work around it, since it's just wrong.
[15:26] <trapicki> ntfs would not mount, it accesses the end of the disk soon, and boils out with errors about anavailable sectors. I would ignore the missing sectors, ntfs isn't :-(
[15:26] <czr> dump the data somewhere in windows, then recreate the partition and then you're done.
[15:27] <trapicki> :-(, but ok, seems the way to go.
[15:27] <czr> yes. you could try using ntfsfix to fix the filesystem itself, but it's very likely that you'll just break it even more. so don't do it.
[15:27] <czr> WD is evil.
[15:27] <czr> for selling such crap.
[15:28] <trapicki> Maybe some windows partition tool will resize the fs and the partition.
[15:28] <trapicki> yes, really crappy.
[15:30] <trapicki> Thanks for your help.
[16:18] <trapicki> Finally traced the USB traffic, and it reported<PHONE_NUMBER> LBA with 512 bytes/block. So the partition table is definitely wrong.
[23:37] <apw> xclaesse, that bug already affects the current development release which is natty


[19:49] <wrst> wb netritious
[21:20] <wrst> howdy chris4585
[21:20] <chris4585> hey wrst, how are you?
[21:21] <wrst> good chris4585, how about you?
[21:22] <chris4585> awesome, I'm good thanks


[00:05] <vorlon> bdmurray: certain dev tools fail to work on older releases if the new release name isn't known via distro-info; but I'm not sure why we require that to work in a security-only environment
[01:35] <nisstyre> Does Ubuntu backport bug fixes in libraries or do they just rely on the Debian maintainers? If it's purely Debian, do they only backport security fixes generally, or any kind of bug fixes?
[01:35] <nisstyre> Just curious how that works
[01:39] <sarnold> nisstyre: you can skim a huge number of changelogs pretty quickly at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bionic-changes/ to get a feeling for what gets fixed when
[01:39] <nisstyre> sarnold: cool thanks for the link
[01:40] <Unit193> Canonical peeps basically maintain stuff in main, and "the community" takes care of universe (which tends to mean that stuff gets a bit ignored, but really just depends.)  I have seen an update basically get sync'd from Debian, but often that's not quite how it works (if for no other reason than version scheme differs.)
[01:41] <nisstyre> Unit193: I see. I'm guessing the process for adding packages to universe basically depends on someone creating a PPA and then it becoming popular/used a lot?
[01:43] <Unit193> nisstyre: Universe is comprised of everything not in main, main is basically the stuff on the main Ubuntu flavor as well as the server set (with some additions, usually because infra stuff uses it.)
[01:43] <Unit193> One can actually add something to the repo that isn't in Debian, but that usually has a team looking after it or whatnot.
[01:43] <nisstyre> makes sense
[01:44] <nisstyre> I'm coming from Arch Linux (beeng using it for the past decade basically), and I'm trying to get more familiar with Ubuntu since I've got to start using it for my work machine now.
[01:44] <Unit193> A community member doing a security update usually means someone that can read the wiki page, file a bug on LP, attach a debdiff, and find a sponsor (sub them to the bug), so it's not specifically that hard.  I've done it a few times.
[07:27] <mwhudson> does anyone know how the default mirror selection works in either d-i or ubiquity? is it just http://geoip.ubuntu.com/lookup and then $CountryCode.{archive,ports}.ubuntu.com ?
[10:07] <seb128> sil2100: hey, please don't copy bug #1740894 to bionic-updates if you didn't do it yet
[10:16] <sil2100> seb128: hm, just did cosmic for now
[10:17] <sil2100> seb128: are we still missing the systemd changes?
[10:17] <sil2100> seb128: I mean, seeing that the bug got switched to verification-done (and had no other open tasks), I thought it's good to go
[10:17] <sil2100> I'll wait with bionic
[10:26] <seb128> sil2100: I'm in meetings in London today, but my understanding is that the regression isn't fixed, they likely verified that the fix does work on those models that didn't work but that doesn't tell us that it's not sitll breaking the models that used to work
[10:59] <xnox> doko, vorlon - my understanding is that if one specifies 'skippable' in debian/tests/control Restrictions; one can exit 77 to skip
[11:00] <xnox> doko, vorlon - i recall you mentioning something like that, but "it didn't work on our infra" or something?
[11:00] <xnox> doko, vorlon - do we need to fix things in the webui and/or autopkgtest-cloud?
[11:00] <xnox> Laney, ^^^ might be interesting
[11:27] <Laney> xnox: should work, some tests use that already
[11:27] <ricotz> hello, is there a reason why there are no updates here http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/bionic/daily-live/ ?
[11:27] <Laney> we might not interpret the results in the best way in all circumstances tho
[11:40] <doko> oSoMoN: uploaded LO again to the apps PPA, we were missing debug symbols in this ppa
[11:44] <oSoMoN> ack
[11:58] <xnox> Laney, gotcha
[12:01] <ahasenack> doko: hi, did you get my last yesterday? bzr-git has a Recommends on python-tdb. We either drop that (and break bzr-git somewhat?), or keep building python-tdb (py2)
[12:14] <doko> ahasenack: I didn't check, is this a useful thing?
[12:15] <ahasenack> doko: don't know, not my package (bzr-git)
[12:15] <ahasenack> someone in the internet always finds something useful
[12:17] <rbasak> Is another option to demote it?
[12:18] <rbasak> Oh, it's already in universe. So I guess not.
[12:18] <rbasak> Keep building python-tdb but leave it in universe maybe? Would that work?
[12:24] <ahasenack> rbasak: yes, I was just checking what build-requires python-tdb, and it's just bzr-git, ldb (for python-ldb probably, which we don't build anymorE) and samba itself
[12:24] <ahasenack> I would just have to revert my revert again :)
[12:25] <ahasenack> that's why I kept building python2, to avoid introducing bigger changes
[12:25] <ahasenack> my thinking was we could just move all of the python(2) packages to universe in this first step
[12:29] <ahasenack> doko: everything else in that ppa is py3 now (even tdb, but I will rebuild it with py2 *and* py3 due to bzr-git)
[12:35] <rbasak> ahasenack: might be worth leaving a "uses py2" bug open against bzr-git?
[12:35] <ahasenack> I think we should have worked with the previous packages the way they were, building both py2 and py3
[12:35] <ahasenack> and later figure this out
[12:35] <ahasenack> but, too late now
[12:36] <ahasenack> I just don't want to keep dragging this for too long, since it's an FFe already
[12:37] <ahasenack> beta freeze in march 28th
[13:11] <cjwatson> bzr-git's tdb thing is used by LP
[13:11] <cjwatson> for git-to-bzr code imports
[13:11] <cjwatson> this doesn't mean you should block on it, since we maintain our own copies of the modules we need, just FYI on what sorts of things it's used for
[13:31] <ahasenack> cjwatson: thanks
[13:31] <ahasenack> cjwatson: I think I can keep python-tdb around
[13:32] <cjwatson> Like I say, LP doesn't need you to, though it's perhaps useful for people to be able to reproduce what imports do
[13:33] <cjwatson> Though we'll hopefully get onto the breezy version in the medium term anyway
[13:33] <rbasak> Breezy? :)
[13:33] <cjwatson> Yes?
[13:33] <cjwatson> Not sure I understand the question :)
[13:34] <rbasak> Oh
[13:34] <rbasak> You mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breezy_(software)
[13:34] <cjwatson> Yes
[13:34] <rbasak> I thought you meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breezy_Badger#Ubuntu_5.10_(Breezy_Badger) :-)
[13:35] <rbasak> (well, obviously you didn't, hence the question)
[15:59] <rbasak> Eickmeyer: in what way is the process for becoming a Per-Package Uploader convulated? How do you think we should change it?
[16:01] <Eickmeyer> rbasak: I think it needs to be more clear-cut and better defined. (BTW, that application is still work-in-progress, that might change. I may have been venting a little/in full panic mode considering Ubuntu Studio's status being in danger).
[16:01] <rbasak> Eickmeyer: well OK, but what about the current process isn't clear cut or clearly defined?
[16:02] <Eickmeyer> rbasak: The minimum number of packages and experience required doesn't seem to be defined, at least not that I could see.
[16:02] <Eickmeyer> Or, the minimum number of sponsors required.
[16:03] <rbasak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
[16:03] <rbasak> "There is no minimum number of sponsored uploads into the archive that you need to have. You need to have demonstrated enough previous work to be able to assure your endorsers that you can be trusted with unsupervised upload access to the primary archive."
[16:05] <Eickmeyer> rbasak: I'm actually in the process of eliminating that line from my application right now, as it was written out of frustration/panic.
[16:05] <Eickmeyer> Doing that since I have not yet formally applied.
[16:05] <rbasak> OK. You absolutely are allowed to have that line, FWIW. We want feedback on making the process better.
[16:11] <Eickmeyer> rbasak: I actually changed it to be more about bureaucracy with a little addage about undertanding why it exists, but I have no idea how to improve that. I have a degree in leadership, so different leadership styles and organizations is something I understand pretty well.
[16:13] <rbasak> Eickmeyer: what bureaucracy? No, really. All we want is for you to write down why you need upload (obvious in this case) and demonstrate that you know what you're doing, and we'll consider it in a meeting.
[16:13] <rbasak> For exceptional circumstances such as this, I think you'll find that we can stretch quite a bit.
[16:13] <rbasak> So far, the problem is that nobody has talked to us about it since we all agreed what you needed to do in 2016.
[16:14] <rbasak> You can't pin that on bureaucracy.
[16:16] <Eickmeyer> rbasak: Okay.
[16:22] <Eickmeyer> rbasak: I fixed that. Take a look at the line now, tl;dr: that Ubuntu Studio hasn't had an uploder in several cycles, and not knowing we were required to have one.
[16:24] <rbasak> Eickmeyer: that's fine, but to be clear, I'm not trying to adjust your opinion in your application, or requiring that your application say the right thing or anything. I'd like to think that I won't hold your opinion against you in your application regardless of whether you state it.
[16:24] <Eickmeyer> rbasak: I appreciate that.
[16:24] <rbasak> Eickmeyer: separately from that, I'm frustrated that the current situation seems to be being taken the wrong way. I want to fix it, but I'd like us to end up on the same page about what is wrong and what needs to be addressed in the process (independent of your application)
[16:25] <Eickmeyer> rbasak: I appreciate that as well. I wish I had been alerted that this problem existed earlier. This all happened as a result of me seeking sponsorship, which I thought was the proper way, since that's what had been done for several cycles earlier.
[16:26] <ahasenack> vorlon: hi, samba 4.10 FFe, which also lists the other 4 FFes that are needed for its dependencies: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/samba/+bug/1818518
[16:26] <rbasak> Eickmeyer: so, with that in mind, what I'm trying to get to is that, while welcoming criticism, I also have the expectation that they are adjusted as needed so that they are well thought out and identify specifics.
[16:27] <rbasak> Eickmeyer: yeah. I understand you weren't involved the last time this came up, and that you've been thrown in the deep end.
[16:28] <rbasak> It wasn't because you requested sponsorship. It's that Steve happened to notice and be reminded because you spoke up.
[16:28] <rbasak> It's perhaps not appropriate to have caused you to feel like it was your fault somehow.
[16:28] <rbasak> vorlon: ^
[16:29] <Eickmeyer> The thought has crossed my mind that I should've kept my mouth shut, but in reality, I know that would've been improper.
[16:33] <Eickmeyer> rbasak: Thanks for your help, by the way. I really appreciate it, and I appreciate you asking me the tough questions, and forcing me to think through my application. :)
[16:59] <rbasak> Eickmeyer: sorry, was in a meeting.  We want more contributors :)
[16:59] <rbasak> (and we want them to be able to upload themselves)
[17:10] <vorlon> Eickmeyer: yes, I don't blame you for the current state of things; it would've been nice if you had happened to have escalated this sooner, but you didn't know there was a reason to.  If the TB fixes having a process of reviewing flavor status, this should be less of a fire drill in the future.
[17:14] <Eickmeyer> vorlon, rbasak: Very much appreciated. I wish I had and known this needed to be escalated escalate this much sooner as well. I'm also glad it pointed-out an area that needed improvement.
[17:14] <vorlon> yeah
[17:15] <vorlon> Eickmeyer: from my perspective, it's an alarm bell that someone who's driving a flavor has to go begging for sponsorship from uploaders across the wider Ubuntu developer community
[17:15] <vorlon> and that's what I'm trying to sort out, so that ubuntustudio can be self-sustaining and effective
[17:16] <Eickmeyer> vorlon: Indeed. It seems to be the one missing piece of the puzzle. I hope that either myslf or Ross or both of us can fill that role. My application is in progress.
[17:17] <vorlon> excellent!
[18:03] <LocutusOfBorg> seb128, are you fixing poppler?
[18:03] <LocutusOfBorg> lol I did the same lol :D
[18:04] <seb128> what needs to be fixed in poppler?
[18:04] <LocutusOfBorg> I think I fixed gdcm and gdal
[18:04] <LocutusOfBorg> the last two blockers?
[18:04] <LocutusOfBorg> I was fixing calligra, and I just discovered your upload sigh
[18:04] <LocutusOfBorg> http://debomatic-amd64.debian.net/distribution#disco/gdal/2.4.0+dfsg-1ubuntu1/buildlog
[18:04] <seb128> oSoMoN said he was going to look at that earlier
[18:04] <LocutusOfBorg> http://debomatic-i386.debian.net/distribution#disco/gdcm/2.8.8-6ubuntu2/buildlog
[18:04] <seb128> check with him
[18:05] <seb128> LocutusOfBorg: next time better to ask before starting to poke :)
[18:06] <seb128> oSoMoN: ^ fyi
[18:06] <LocutusOfBorg> sure! but meh, I said "lets do it while on train" :)
[18:07] <LocutusOfBorg> its a work I started yesterday, this is why I didn't check again
[18:08] <LocutusOfBorg> oSoMoN, the gdcm fix is trivial, https://github.com/malaterre/GDCM/pull/84
[18:09] <LocutusOfBorg> you can avoid the build, I'm doing it in the above link (if successful)
[18:10] <oSoMoN> LocutusOfBorg, thanks, I had come to the same conclusion, and have a local build currently running to verify that it's enough
[18:11] <seb128> cjwatson: big thanks from the desktop team for the gitlab support :-)
[18:11] <willcooke> thanks cjwatson!
[18:14] <oSoMoN> LocutusOfBorg, are you uploading the fixes for gdal and gdcm, then?
[18:14] <oSoMoN> I can't upload myself anyway
[18:15] <oSoMoN> gotta go, bbiab
[18:17] <seb128> oSoMoN: sorry if you had started and dupped work, it's annoying when it happens
[20:27] <oSoMoN> LocutusOfBorg, thanks for the gdcm upload, are you going to do gdal as well?


[06:07] <Kilos> morning pk
[18:16] <pavlushka> Hello everyone, Eid Mubarak folks!
[18:17] <Kilos> ohi philipballew how did you get here