[09:42] <Sp4rKy> i thought there's a "test" like to become an ubuntu-member
[09:43] <LaserJock> well, I don't really think of that as a "test" but it is similar
[09:43] <Sp4rKy> k
[09:44] <PriceChild> to become an ubuntu member you just have to be able to prove you've given to the community basically
[09:44] <PriceChild> LaserJock: MOTUC? :O
[09:44] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
[09:44] <LaserJock> PriceChild: Council Grayskull
[09:44] <PriceChild> pardon?
[09:45] <LaserJock> PriceChild: that's the name of the MOTU council that will be handling membership and MOTU applications
[09:45] <Sp4rKy> LaserJock: bookmarked
[09:45] <PriceChild> why Grayskull?
[09:45] <LaserJock> PriceChild: comes from He-Man
[09:45] <pygi> PriceChild: because, think :)
[09:45] <pygi> PriceChild: cartoons ^_^
[09:45] <LaserJock> as does the name MOTU
[09:45] <PriceChild> he he cool :)
[09:45] <PriceChild> ahhhh i getcha now
[09:46] <Sp4rKy> PriceChild: i know for the ubuntu member coucil (i'm one :)
[09:46] <PriceChild> ah k sorry Sp4rKy
[09:46] <LaserJock> bbiab
[09:46] <PriceChild> I'm gonna apply at next CC meting
[09:46] <PriceChild> *meeting
[09:46] <Sp4rKy> PriceChild: np
[09:49] <Adri2000> Sp4rKy: what's the "test" to become an ubuntu member?
[09:49] <Sp4rKy> Adri2000: not really a test in fact
[09:49] <Sp4rKy> just write your name to the next CC list
[09:50] <Sp4rKy> and come at the CC
[09:50] <Sp4rKy> and wait a "CC member" talk to you
[09:50] <Sp4rKy> and then talk about what you do for Ubuntu
[09:50] <Sp4rKy> help / installation / packaging / translation / bugs ...
[09:50] <Sp4rKy> all kind of contribution
[09:50] <Adri2000> yeah ok, you don't have a piece of paper with questions, one hour to do it... :p
[09:50] <Sp4rKy> nop
[09:51] <pygi> Adri2000: hehe :)
[09:51] <secretlondon> you need a history of activity and to document it - and recommendations from people
[09:51] <secretlondon> admittedly i haven't done it yet
[09:51] <Sp4rKy> and so CC member say "yes, you're 'able' to become an ubuntu member"
[09:51] <Sp4rKy> or not
[09:51] <pygi> secretlondon: ^_^
[09:52] <pygi> Sp4rKy: one CC member not enough ;)
[09:52] <Sp4rKy> pygi: i know
[09:52] <Sp4rKy> 3 in fact
[09:52] <Sp4rKy> or you maybe can help some special team
[09:52] <Sp4rKy> ...
[09:52] <Adri2000> sabdfl is supposed to be present at every CC?
[09:52] <LaserJock> no
[09:52] <LaserJock> he's often away
[09:54] <Adri2000> ok, and there is still no date for the next CC?
[09:54] <Adri2000> it should be every two weeks
[09:54] <PriceChild> I've been waiting for the next CC since october :(
[09:54] <LaserJock> usually the developer summits and releases mess up the schedule
[09:55] <LaserJock> as the people on the CC and TB are often the people doing a lot of the work
[09:55] <PriceChild> yeah
[09:55] <giskard> LaserJock, a motu con become CC or TB=
[09:55] <giskard> ?
[09:55] <LaserJock> giskard: can they be on the CC or TB?
[09:56] <LaserJock> is that what you're asking
[09:56] <giskard> yes
[09:56] <LaserJock> siretart: ssshh
[09:56] <LaserJock> giskard: sure
[09:56] <LaserJock> giskard: any member is eligible for CC
[09:56] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 62751 in cryptsetup "Upstart doesn't activate luks volumes in cryptsetup" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/62751
[09:56] <giskard> LaserJock, idem for TB?
[09:56] <giskard> !revu
[09:56] <ubotu> REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
[09:56] <LaserJock> giskard: I'd imagine that it would take being a core-dev to be on the TB
[09:57] <LaserJock> giskard: but there is no rule against a MOTU being on the TB I don't think
[09:57] <LaserJock> nominations are given to sabdfl
[09:57] <LaserJock> he picks people
[09:57] <LaserJock> and they are voted on by the developers/members
[09:58] <giskard> ok
[09:58] <siretart> TB ppl should have a good understanding of technical issues in ubuntu. those ppl are commonly found in ubuntu-core-dev
[09:58] <LaserJock> it should all be happening very soon too
[09:58] <LaserJock> now that the Canonical all-hands meeting is done
[10:00] <pygi> PriceChild: it seems we'll keep search disabled after all for now, at least according to current votes
[10:00] <pygi> PriceChild: lol, all want tracker^_^
[10:00] <giskard> pygi, hello
[10:00] <pygi> hey ho giskard :)
[10:00] <PriceChild> he he :)
[10:00] <PriceChild> pygi: leave it up at least a day or two first though
[10:00] <PriceChild> you've only seen the opinions of a small group
[10:01] <pygi> PriceChild: I will, but Brasero currently doesn't include tracker support, so no point including it as dep when it wouldnt work :p
[10:01] <PriceChild> he he ok
[10:01] <PriceChild> but you might get more feedback about the real question
[10:01] <pygi> yes, I know ...
[10:01] <pygi> and we have plans to include an abstraction layers for burning and search backends...
[10:02] <pygi> it's just not the right time ^_^
[10:02] <PriceChild> he he ok :)
[10:02] <ajmitch> morning all
[10:03] <PriceChild> morning
[10:03] <secretlondon> morning
[10:06] <pygi> PriceChild: it's just interesting how radical opinions some people have ^_^
[10:07] <ajmitch> pygi: like "you *MUST* use tracker"?
[10:07] <pygi> ajmitch: yes ^_^
[10:16] <Laser_away> pygi: what's the point of having tracker/beagle support?
[10:17] <pygi> Laser_away: to have search panel enabled in Brasero...
[10:17] <Laser_away> well, but what are you supposed to search for?
[10:17] <pygi> Laser_away: dunno, files you wanna include on cd or something?
[10:17] <Laser_away> hm
[10:18] <pygi> with a preview, bla, bla
[10:21] <cbx33> why would I search for files I've just put onto a cd?
[10:21] <cbx33> just curious?
[10:22] <Burgundavia> cbx33: I have about 35 cds with random things I have burned on them. I would like to be able to find something on one of those cds easily
[10:22] <cbx33> so is the idea to store in a db everything you've ever written onto a cd?
[10:23] <Burgundavia> only stuff you want
[10:23] <nixternal> ;p
[10:24] <PriceChild> pygi: that's what you get with linux :)
[10:24] <pygi> cbx33: even before you've put to cd, you can do a preview of images, music, video, etc
[10:33] <Simon80> cbx33: there's a mac app that does this search thing
[10:33] <Simon80> I forget the name, but they're one of those "we're perpetually in beta" apps
[10:34] <Simon80> IMO beta is a label you use for the short time in between alpha and release
[10:34] <Simon80> not some snobby indicator that you're somehow cutting edge
[10:38] <pygi> Simon80: why not? ^_^
[10:38] <Simon80> lol
[10:38] <pygi> Simon80: I can't call libburn neither alpha and certainly not release (1.0) ready
[10:38] <Simon80> because it's a misuse of the word for marketing purposes
[10:38] <Simon80> pygi: you aren't selling libburn
[10:38] <pygi> Simon80: true ^_^
[10:43] <metres> Hi there, I dont found where to report a bug... When I start kdesu konqueror, It is unable to launch kate...
[10:44] <secretlondon> metres: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
[10:44] <metres> thank secretlondon
[11:05] <metres> I got  "warning: no utmp entry available and LOGNAME not defined;" with pbuilder... anyone know why ?
[11:11] <joejaxx> nice Feisty is actually working :)
[11:11] <joejaxx> or is usable
[11:11] <pygi> joejaxx: :P
[11:12] <joejaxx> no seriously
[11:12] <joejaxx> before it whould not accepted any input from my synapticpad and keyboard
[11:13] <joejaxx> and the fonts were messed up a bit
[11:14] <chantra> hi there, I was wondering, using a pbuilder chroot, is it possible to build a package for another distro
[11:15] <pygi> chantra: for debian, yes
[11:15] <pygi> others, havent tried
[11:15] <chantra> I mean, having a edgy package, it is possible to change the debian/ settings such as that
[11:15] <pygi> joejaxx: I know :)
[11:15] <chantra> there is changelogs related to dapper and not edgy anymore?
[11:16] <chantra> http://packages.ubuntu.com/ is down :s
[11:18] <chantra> guys, could i build a package using pbuilder like I would with dpkg-buildpackage?
[11:19] <chantra> maybe debuilmd :)
[11:20] <chantra> nope, does not seem to work
[11:20] <pygi> chantra: may I suggest reading ubuntu packaging guide?
[11:20] <pygi> chantra: debian new maintainers guide as well
[11:20] <chantra> :)
[11:21] <chantra> i'm rather struggling with pbuilder
[11:21] <pygi> heh
[11:21] <chantra> it seems this is rather to build a package, not to modify and rebuild a package
[11:21] <kkubasik> if someone has a sec, can I get a review on this
[11:21] <kkubasik> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=3490
[11:21] <chantra> if you see what i mean
[11:23] <chantra> pygi: do you believe I can get a package built for edgy, change some dependancies in debian/control
[11:23] <chantra> and then rebuild it with pbuilder?
[11:24] <chantra> as far as I can experience with pbuilder, I cannot
[11:24] <chantra> i can only build a package using .dsc file, which means i cannot modify the package
[11:25] <fdoving> you can use 'pdebuild'
[11:26] <chantra> fdoving: never heard of that one, will give it a try :)
[11:26] <chantra> cheers :p
[11:26] <pygi> chantra: well, you can do "debuild -S -sa" and then pbuilder build *.dsc
[11:27] <pygi> chantra: and please, o please, read the guides
[11:27] <chantra> pygi: I did, but I might have missed that bit, cheers
[11:37] <chantra> pdebuild seems to do the job, thanks
[11:38] <chantra> do you guys have any tricks for using pdebuild in a multi-chroot environment
[11:38] <chantra> a bit like we can do with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
[11:39] <fdoving> you can use the --pbuilder switch.
[11:39] <fdoving> then you can choose the pbuilder command to use.
[11:42] <chantra> tried pdebuild --pbuilder pbuilder-custom
[11:43] <chantra> this does not seems to work, might try to make some custom pdebuild-xxx so it calls the pbuilder with the appropriate args
[11:44] <pygi> chantra: why are you doing stuff like this? :p
[11:45] <chantra> pygi: :)
[11:46] <chantra> just, some people would like to get a package for dapper
[11:46] <pygi> it's really not a problem to build :P
[11:46] <chantra> i don't have any dapper installed on my comp, and not much space left
[11:46] <pygi> build dapper pbuilder, use "debuild -S -sa" and whatever
[11:46] <pygi> chantra: we use pbuilder, you know :)
[11:46] <chantra> pygi: yep i guess :)
[11:47] <chantra> it just that pdebuild seems to call pbuilder when it is done
[11:47] <chantra> i was wondering if there were any way to make it call the appropriate pbuilder
[11:48] <chantra> such as pbuilder-dapper in my case
[11:48] <pygi> chantra: I told you 1000 times how you can build dapper package, so why complicating? :P
[11:51] <pygi> chantra: change source dir, do "debuild -S -sa" and then "cd .." and "pbuilder-dapper build *.dsc"
[11:52] <nixternal> LaserJock: just so you know, i have nacho libre right here..it was so bad i kept falling asleep during it
[11:52] <LaserJock> bummer, glad I didn't buy it
[11:52] <nixternal> ya, rent do buy it
[11:52] <nixternal> if you have to see it
[11:52] <nixternal> jack black as a mexican isn't funny
[11:53] <chantra> pygi: yep, done and it works, but i just thought we could use pdebuild to trigger the appropriate command
[11:53] <pygi> chantra: dunno, and don't care too much ^_^
[11:53] <nixternal> on that note, i am going for some chili..bbl
[11:53] <pygi> bye nixternal
[11:53] <chantra> pygi: anyway, has you say, debuild -S -sa;cd ..;pbuilder-dapper build *dsc
[11:53] <chantra> workss fine :p
[11:54] <pygi> ofcourse it does :P
[11:54] <giskard> ahah
[11:54] <chantra> okie dokie, catch you later guys, and thanks again
[11:54] <pygi> giskard: still talking?:))))
[11:54] <pygi> bye chantra
[11:54] <giskard> pygi, no :D
[11:54] <pygi> giskard: ok :P
[11:55] <LaserJock> chantra: pdebuild is just a wrapper around debuild -S + pbuilder
[11:55] <chantra> LaserJock: okie dokie
[11:56] <ajmitch> hey LaserJock
[11:56] <LaserJock> hi ajmitch
[11:56] <pygi> LaserJock: I agree ^_^
[11:57] <pygi> LaserJock: I'd be interested in writing something up for packaging guide for feisty if you allow me
[11:57] <ajmitch> pygi: I suspect he'll welcome any contributions
[11:57] <ajmitch> LaserJock: my hero!
[11:58] <LaserJock> pygi: if you want. I think I'm going to blog an "Packaging Guide wants You!"
[11:58] <ajmitch> ok, lunch time, I'm off for awhile :)
[11:58] <pygi> LaserJock: ok, once you do inform me :) Just tell me what needs writing, and you'll get it in couple of weeks :)
[11:58] <LaserJock> well, you still need to finish the Edubuntu Handbook
[11:58] <pygi> LaserJock: I know that :-/
[11:59] <pygi> LaserJock: working, I'm working :)))
[12:01] <xopher> How does one build a deb from a .dsc+tar.gz source ? w/o pbuilder. Just need to know the command, have forgotten how its done. Without extracting the source first.
[12:02] <chantra> LaserJock: maybe a bit extra saying how to manipulate a package
[12:02] <LaserJock> chantra: mhm
[12:02] <plugwash> xopher i can't see how you could build it without extracting it
[12:02] <chantra> like the debuild -sa -S could be explain in pbuilder howto
[12:02] <plugwash> since the compilers etc will expect there to be a source tree
[12:03] <LaserJock> xopher: yeah, I think you'd need to do a dpkg-source -x first
[12:03] <chantra> LaserJock: here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
[12:03] <LaserJock> then debuild
[12:03] <plugwash> so extract it with dpkg-source , change to the directory its extracted to and then run dpkg-buildpackage
[12:03] <xopher> LaserJock, allright, thanks..
[12:03] <chantra> okie got to go, my girlfriend is waiting :s
[12:03] <chantra> catch u
[12:03] <LaserJock> chantra: well yes, the problem is how to arrange the information
[12:04] <chantra> right
[12:05] <LaserJock> the original goal was that the "Getting Started" section was what you read before starting anything
[12:05] <pygi> LaserJock: I'd say that the given examples are too artificial
[12:05] <LaserJock> artificial?
[12:06] <LaserJock> they are packages in the archives
[12:06] <pygi> well, yea. Nobody will in reality package a simple hellp world app.
[12:06] <LaserJock> have you seen the rules for hello?
[12:06] <LaserJock> it's not trivial
[12:06] <LaserJock> I think the hello packages are very good to use
[12:07] <pygi> I know it's not trivial. But other applications are far more complex
[12:07] <LaserJock> they have a hard enough time getting through that
[12:07] <LaserJock> you want it more complicated?
[12:07] <LaserJock> :-)
[12:07] <pygi> yes :P
[12:07] <LaserJock> it shouldn't be about the application
[12:07] <LaserJock> it should be about how to package
[12:07] <pygi> I understand that
[12:08] <LaserJock> I would like to include more info on different areas like Java or python
[12:08] <LaserJock> that might be a bit more advanced
[12:08] <LaserJock> but they are also very hard to write
[12:10] <LaserJock> I just don't have time to do a lot of writing on it :/


[17:51] <svij> mhall119: good luck and have fun at your next job! :)
[18:08] <mhall119> thanks svij :)
[18:08] <mhall119> unfortunately it means I probably won't be at UbuCon Europe this year, which I'm really sad about
[18:09] <svij> aww :(
[21:47] <genii> We need an UbuCon Canada :( I can't afford to travel to all these other places they hold them
[21:47] <wxl> let's do it
[21:47] <wxl> i'll come
[21:47] <wxl> vancouver, please :)
[21:49] <genii> wxl:  :D
[21:51] <genii> wxl: Might be do-able for 2018
[21:51] <wxl> @genii: get the people together and make it happen!
[21:51] <wxl> i've got family dotted throughout CA and would love an excuse to visit
[21:52] <wxl> actually based on that, Alberta would be ideal
[21:52] <genii> Hm
[21:58] <genii> wxl: Looks like the Calgary Marriot has meeting rooms
[21:58] <wxl> ooooh
[22:12] <genii> $190 a night
[22:14] <tsimonq2> OooOOOooo
[22:17] <genii> How many people typically show to something like Ubucon Europe or UbuCon US ?
[22:23] <genii> Group photos I've seen suggest 100-150 but I'm not sure


[01:07] <jjesse> everyone having a good evening?
[01:11] <snap-l> jjesse: So far so good.
[01:11] <jjesse> yay
[01:21] <snap-l> https://twitter.com/#!/squeekyhoho/statuses/161257211241304064
[01:22] <snap-l> http://lococast.net/archives/569
[01:23] <jjesse> yay
[01:25] <rick_h> phew, exhausted with accomplishment
[01:25] <rick_h> new bookie update and new podcast
[01:25] <rick_h> I must be on some good drugs :)
[01:25] <rick_h> thanks for the timely edits snap-l
[01:25] <snap-l> rick_h: NP
[01:26] <snap-l> realy didn't need much editing
[01:38] <tjagoda> You sons of bitches
[01:39] <tjagoda> I click on your podcast link and immediately want to buy Geekdesk
[01:47] <rick_h> lol
[01:49] <snap-l> ;)
[01:50]  * snap-l hopes rick_h has a referral code on there.
[01:53] <rick_h> heh, we can't ger referrels for books, don't think the desk will work
[01:53] <rick_h> but yea, tjagoda let me know if you've got any ?. I love mine
[02:04] <snap-l> rick_h: Yeah, we went to that Moby Dick place one time
[02:04] <snap-l> Looking to purchase a new tank, instead of using the Eclips 5 that I have
[02:29] <snap-l> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204624204577177184275959856.html < holy shit
[02:29] <snap-l> apparently the co-CEOs of RIM are toast
[02:29] <tjagoda> FINALLY
[02:29] <snap-l> make way for the even more clueless CEO
[02:29] <tjagoda> Augh
[02:30] <tjagoda> Although
[02:30] <tjagoda> "little known company insider" could be awesome
[02:30] <tjagoda> I'll hold out hope for that. =(
[02:33] <snap-l> My question is "so what"?
[02:34] <snap-l> They bring in a new CEO from within. How are they going to turn it around?
[02:34] <snap-l> Ne product takes more than 6-12 months
[02:34] <Blazeix> uhoh, rick_h. galaxy nexus troubles?
[02:34] <tjagoda> I always assumed that the CEO's themselves were the root of all evil.
[02:35] <rick_h> Blazeix: yea, it's a real bear.
[02:35] <rick_h> Blazeix: pulling headphone won't enable the speaker on the phone
[02:35] <rick_h> Blazeix: and if I make a call, it goes to headset mode when there's no headset so I can't hear anything
[02:35] <Blazeix> ugh
[02:35] <rick_h> getting freezing UI, having to reboot the device several times a day
[02:35] <Blazeix> must be that free smiley theme you installed
[02:35] <tjagoda> That sounds like my old blackberry!
[02:35] <rick_h> something's gone horribly wrong with it in the last few days, but I've not added any new apps/etc
[02:36] <rick_h> only thing I can think is I moved to the larger battery
[02:36] <rick_h> but can't see how that could blow up the OS
[02:37] <Blazeix> right, i've seen new batteries mess up laptops before, but never phones
[02:37] <Blazeix> i'm curious if phone plugged in with no battery helps
[02:37] <rick_h> I just keep putting off a reset because of all the work getting it going
[02:37] <tjagoda> Crazy volts could confuse the processor
[02:37] <Blazeix> though sounds like the issues are fleeting
[02:37] <rick_h> maybe I'll do that. swap out to the old battery for tomorrow and see
[02:38] <rick_h> I had a couple of apps update, amazon, gmaps
[02:38] <rick_h> but man...annoyed to no end
[02:39] <rick_h> ok, old battery in, we'll see what tomorrow brings
[02:40] <tjagoda> Just read shuttleworth's blog about new Upstream QA stuff
[02:40] <tjagoda> that makes me excited.  having a test suite run against upstream packages every time there's a change.
[02:40] <rick_h> tjagoda: yea? good post. BIG ideas and lots of work going on there
[02:42] <tjagoda> "Research  In Motion names Thorsten Heins President and CEO. Mike Lazaridis,  former Co-Chair and Co-CEO, becomes Vice Chair of RIM’s Board and Chair  of Board’s New Innovation Committee. Jim Balsillie, former Co-CEO  remains a member of the Board. RIM Board Member Barbara Stymiest named  the independent Board Chair. Prem Watsa, CEO of Fairfax Financial  Holdings, also named to Board."
[02:43] <tjagoda> If your name sounds as cool as "Thorsten Heins," I firmly believe you can turn around /anything/.
[04:19] <snap-l> And Kobo is sending me another replacement unit
[04:19] <snap-l> Apparently it has "Enhanced WiFi capabilities"
[04:19] <snap-l> Will be disappointed if it can't find hotspots on Mars.
[11:41] <snap-l> GOod morning
[12:10] <rick_h> morning
[12:27] <rick_h> damn I love 4g. Working from the car dealership this morning and rally can't even tell.
[12:47] <snap-l> rally?
[12:48] <rick_h> ok that was crazy
[12:48] <rick_h> don't try to do ctrl-z in irssi :)
[12:48] <snap-l> really? :)
[12:48] <rick_h> but if you do, a fg will get it back
[12:48] <snap-l> weechat doesn't have that problem
[12:49] <rick_h> :P
[12:49] <rick_h> I'm thinking of checking out weechat
[12:49] <snap-l> heh
[12:49] <rick_h> how does it swap channels?
[12:49] <snap-l> Same as irssi
[12:49] <rick_h> I'm getting always pressed up against my alt-x limits
[12:49] <rick_h> bah
[12:49] <snap-l> although you don't have access to 11+
[12:49] <rick_h> I need something that doesn't start hitting window/terminal shortcuts with alt-e/etc
[12:49] <rick_h> right
[12:49] <rick_h> that's my problem
[12:50] <rick_h> I've got 5 launchpad channels alone
[12:50] <snap-l> so, direct is out, but alt-arrow will work
[12:51] <rick_h> ok, but then it's not getting me anything I don't have with irssi
[12:51] <rick_h> that was my one reason to check it out
[12:51] <snap-l> It gives you a nice nick list
[12:52] <rick_h> bah, /names is enough for me
[12:52] <rick_h> I've never been "oooh, what I need here is to lose valuable real estate with an up to date list of people I don't talk to :P
[12:52] <snap-l> It feels a bit nicer
[12:52] <rick_h> unless it's cool and auto hides like the unity sidebar meh
[12:53] <snap-l> Nah
[12:53] <snap-l> it has it's advantages
[12:53] <snap-l> I like it, overall
[12:54] <rick_h> ok, well I'll put it back on the list but it's a bit low if no coolness with many channels. That's my killer feature
[12:54] <snap-l> only thing I really miss is terminal URL clicking
[12:54] <snap-l> There's a /buffer command to switch buffers
[12:54] <rick_h> urxvt does that for me
[12:56] <snap-l> Have I mentioned it's called "weechat"
[12:56] <snap-l> because, you know... wee
[12:56] <rick_h> lol
[12:57] <snap-l> It supports jabber, allegedly, out of the box
[12:57] <rick_h> ah, cool
[12:57] <rick_h> no need to bitlebee it in there?
[12:57] <snap-l> er, sorry, with plugin
[12:57] <rick_h> lies!!
[12:57] <snap-l> Yeah, so no bitlbee
[12:57] <snap-l> http://www.weechat.org/files/scripts/jabber.py
[12:58] <snap-l> It supports jabber with Python instead of bitlbee
[12:58] <snap-l> so, ++
[12:58] <rick_h> heh
[12:58] <brousch> oooh, i like what i walked in on
[12:58] <brousch> jabber and python
[12:58]  * rick_h gets clothes back on
[13:00] <brousch> oh come on
[13:15] <Wolfger> morning
[13:21] <rick_h> woot, check out the new bug listing stuff in LP https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad
[13:21] <rick_h> now live
[13:21] <rick_h> that's the feature my team worked on and they had me present how I'd do it when I interviewed
[13:21] <rick_h> but for the record...I wasn't around until the tail end of the feature so I'm not a huge fan of all the decisions :)
[13:23] <rick_h> and for the record #@!$#@$#@$#@ doctests
[13:23] <Wolfger> not a fan of doctests?
[13:23] <rick_h> no, @#$ no @#$#@$#@ no @#$#@$#@$#@$#@$#@$#@$#@$@ no
[13:23] <Wolfger> Ooh, that's pretty
[13:25] <brousch> looks like perl
[13:25] <Wolfger> ROFL @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/901203
[13:25] <rick_h> hmmm, perl...doctests feelings are pretty similar :P
[13:25] <rick_h> actually I respect perl...I DON'T doctests
[13:47] <brousch> You guys have talks at CHC now, right?
[13:47] <rick_h> brousch: somewhat
[13:47] <rick_h> not really, but working on it
[13:47] <rick_h> we did a video night that was a talk
[13:47] <rick_h> and I want to do a juju talk
[13:47] <brousch> ah
[13:48] <rick_h> so it's something we're working towards I think
[13:48] <brousch> Brondsema was poking around for someplace else to practice his PyCon talk
[13:48] <rick_h> now that we have the room/space for it
[13:48] <rick_h> what is it?
[13:48] <brousch> Decorators
[13:48] <rick_h> I'd say it'd be cool if he knows it's a small space, 6-12 people in a small room
[13:48] <rick_h> would be shorter drive to give it at Michipug
[13:49] <brousch> same size as GRPUG ;)
[13:49] <brousch> sometimes he in on the east side for work
[13:49] <rick_h> but yea, sure we'd listen at any CHC
[13:49] <rick_h> I can bring a little projector for him to use/etc
[13:50] <brousch> I think he was going to try MichiPUG, but the dates may not work out
[13:50] <brousch> I'll have him contact you if he's interested.
[13:50] <rick_h> right, yea and a pycon talk is only 30min so he can do any CHC
[13:51] <rick_h> sure, sounds like a plan
[13:51] <brousch> I wish LansingPUG would get their butts moving. Would be a good central place
[13:58] <brousch> 99 RSVPs for grwebdev tonight
[13:58] <brousch> yowza
[13:58] <snap-l> brousch: Wow, that's awesome.
[14:09] <brousch> yeah, and i get to be MC
[14:10] <Wolfger> woot
[14:13] <brousch> the original theme was JQuery - Winning!
[14:13] <brousch> but now it's JQuery - Winning?
[14:14] <brousch> only 1 talk is about jquery, 2 are about moving away from jquery to javascript, and one is just about javascript
[14:15] <snap-l> Can we please stop with the Winning!
[14:15] <Wolfger> never
[14:16] <snap-l> Those are some nice kneecaps.  Which is arguably a contradiction in terms, but only really stuck up people would argue that...
[14:21] <snap-l> Bacteria are a culture
[14:21] <Wolfger> different culture
[14:21] <Wolfger> different use of the word, I mean
[14:22] <snap-l> I don't think they're too far apart. ;)
[14:22] <brousch> in my defense, the theme's title was created at the apex of sheen's antics. it's just getting presented now
[14:22] <brousch> i would not choose the same title today
[14:23] <Wolfger> brousch: all wrapped up in snap-l's can of shit
[14:23] <snap-l> Wolfger: It's not my can, I'm just pointing out the packaging.
[14:23] <brousch> i pretty much ignore pop culture, but if some of it bubbles up to me i figure it must be widespread enough to use
[14:23] <Wolfger> Me, I'm just a fan of crazy.
[14:24] <Wolfger> Sheen went crazy in a very entertaining and dare I say cool fashion, as opposed to, say, couch-jumping Tom Cruise
[14:25] <snap-l> Cruise did Top Gun, Sheen did Top Secret
[14:25] <snap-l> I rest my case on who is cooler.
[14:25] <Wolfger> and so things like Winning! and tiger blood appeal to me. They are flags of cool craziness.
[14:25] <snap-l> Bah, I mean Hot Shots!
[14:25] <Wolfger> snap-l: Cruise did cooler movies, Sheen did cooler crazy
[14:26] <Wolfger> for Cruise, going crazy was a huge step down. For Sheen it was a big step *up*
[15:05] <llua> http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Wallpapers
[15:06] <rick_h> brousch: nice on the meetup.
[15:07] <rick_h> brousch: and nice to see that there are others moving on from jquery :)
[15:07] <brousch> yeah, i was surprised. we had a javascript talk almost exactly 1 year ago and 90% of the audience said they use jquery
[15:07] <rick_h> :)
[15:08] <rick_h> I can tell the future!!!
[15:08] <brousch> now allof the local javascript ninjas are moving on
[15:08] <rick_h> except I doubt many people there will be YUI users :(
[15:08] <brousch> i'm seeing a lot of backbone
[15:08] <rick_h> yea
[15:08] <rick_h> backbone is winning, from the guy that did underscore.js
[15:08] <Wolfger> You need to take the next step, from predicting the future to creating the future
[15:09] <brousch> Wolfger: thus the move to canonical!
[15:09] <rick_h> Wolfger: meh, then I run the risk of being ahead of my time and failing
[15:09] <Wolfger> you can't fail. You're too big to fail. Plus, tiger blood... ;-D
[15:17] <krondor> llua:  I kind of like some of those origima inspired wallpapers.  Pretty nice.
[15:23] <llua> krondor: http://www.doodle.com/rci5689d49xkssbp
[15:23] <llua> vote for it then
[15:28] <llua> :D
[15:49] <rick_h> and speaking of wallpapers http://hungfu.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/precisely-how-were-going-to-make-the-wallpapers-in-12-04-the-best-ever/
[15:52] <Wolfger> cool
[15:53] <brousch> i've never really noticed the wallpapers
[15:53] <rick_h> yea, I've not used a wallpaper is a couple of years now
[15:58] <snap-l> heathens
[15:59] <snap-l> Wallpaper is crucial
[15:59] <snap-l> and not just some picture of your kid plastered int he middle of your screen, I'm talking honest-to-goodness Wallpaper
[15:59] <snap-l> the kind that makes people wonder what the hell you're smoking
[16:00] <brousch> mine is always covered by windows
[16:01] <Blazeix> solution: transparent terminals
[16:01] <llua> ^
[16:02] <brousch> i prefer my terminal be readable
[16:02] <Wolfger> Blazeix++
[16:02] <Wolfger> brousch: that's what shading is for
[16:03] <Wolfger> shade enough for readability, but not so much you can't make out the wallpaper
[16:03] <brousch> blah
[16:03] <brousch> if i want pretty fluff i'll go back to osx
[16:03] <rick_h> terminal heathens!
[16:04] <rick_h> brousch: ++
[16:04] <rick_h> as soon as you tile your first terminal you never see a wallpaper
[16:04] <rick_h> if I want pretty inspiration I'll paint the wall
[16:04] <Wolfger> term wars...
[16:04] <Blazeix> brousch: you make the background slightly transparent, but the text not transparent at all
[16:04] <Blazeix> as long as you have a darkish background, it works well :)
[16:04] <rick_h> damn right, it all comes down to if you're getting stuff done or just making pretty screenshots for the desktop gallery in the forums :P
[16:05] <Wolfger> rick_h: painting the wall isn't a mobile solution
[16:13] <rick_h> man, finally a decent win http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/01/supreme-court-holds-warrantless-gps-tracking-unconstitutional.ars
[16:24] <snap-l> There goes rick_h, painting the walls in order to get work done
[16:25]  * snap-l wonders if he can get a mural in his cubicle
[16:28] <brousch> you must have a mighty big cubicle
[16:41] <snap-l> Has to be to contain my awesome. :)
[16:42] <rick_h> see, that cube has to be owned by someone with such powerful humility. So glad the tradition continues on :)
[16:52] <Wolfger> rick_h: I hate reading articles about the 4th Amendment, because somebody always mentions the "expectation of privacy" standard.  My rights should not go away simply because the powers that be succeed in lowering public expectations.
[16:53] <Wolfger> "Oh, everybody knows anything you post to the internet isn't private!" Bam, no 4th amendment protections online.
[16:54] <Wolfger> It's a fine line to saying "Everybody knows you can be tracked by your cell phone" to legal warrantless GPS tracking of anybody who uses one.
[16:55] <Wolfger> Even the majority opinion in this case said they ruled the way they did due to physical trespass involved.
[16:56] <Wolfger> Without physical trespass, this could have been 4-3 or 5-2 in the other direction.
[16:56] <snap-l> I really hate the idea that because it's easier to track people, we should legalize it
[16:57] <snap-l> We have a warrant system for a reason
[16:57] <rick_h> Wolfger: yea, it's not total, but honestly, these days with everything bypassing due process and warrants I'm happy something fights back a little bit
[16:58] <Wolfger> Point taken.
[16:58] <brousch> Wolfger: What do you have to hide?!
[16:58] <Wolfger> But I've never been so demoralized by a victory...
[16:58] <snap-l> rick_h: If you're doing surveillance and not using a judge, it should be inadmissable in court
[16:58]  * brousch releases a pre-lunch troll
[16:58] <snap-l> period
[16:58] <Wolfger> brousch: what do you think I have to hide? I'm confessing nothing.
[16:59] <snap-l> Have a few high-profile cases tossed out because the police didn't follow that rule. They'll adapt
[16:59] <Wolfger> also, you missed pre-lunch by about an hour
[16:59] <snap-l> Getting a warrant should be like reading Miranda
[16:59] <brousch> no, it is 11:59am
[17:01] <rick_h> Blazeix: ok this is crazy, but the phone so far today is behaving better with the old battery.   It will usually take a few charge/discharge cycles before the phone stops lying to you
[17:06] <rick_h> krondor: it's not that
[17:07] <rick_h> I swapped to the official samsung high capacity battery and had all kinds of issues
[17:07] <rick_h> the headphone jack is confused if there's a headphone there/not
[17:07] <rick_h> I'd get total lag, phone would lock up for 30+s
[17:07] <rick_h> and then unfreeze only to hang again
[17:07] <rick_h> I thought I was oging to have to do a total factory reset because something got fubar, but so far today (swapped back the battery last night) I've listened to podcasts, audio books, email etc all seem ok
[17:08] <rick_h> sure, the notification for email has stuttered a couple of times, but no hangs, no headphone jack issues
[17:08] <rick_h> I'll keep going, but it sure seems odd
[17:09] <krondor> that seems really odd, I'm trying to understand how a new battery could do that (short of undervolt/overvolt issues)
[17:09] <rick_h> krondor: that's why I swapped the battery expecting to do a factory reset today
[17:10] <rick_h> and why I say "Giant WTF"
[17:10] <krondor> did your nexus report the battery as healthy when you used it?  Maybe it's defective and giving the wrong volt or running super hot (but you'd notice that)
[17:11] <rick_h> it didn't error at me in any way
[17:11] <rick_h> where do you see if "healthy"?
[17:12] <krondor> about device in settings, status, should have a spot for battery (discharging/not charging).
[17:12] <rick_h> I'll swap back out and check in a bit
[17:12] <krondor> if android thinks its defective it will say unhealthy, but it's a pretty dumb test so I'm not sure how 'unhealthy' the battery really needs to be
[17:13] <rick_h> yea
[17:15] <snap-l> rick_h: Did you order the battery from Amazon?
[17:15] <rick_h> snap-l: no, verizon :)
[17:15] <snap-l> OK
[17:15] <rick_h> it's the official from big red real article
[17:15] <snap-l> Wondering if you got a counterfeit.
[17:20] <rick_h> krondor: ok, so I've got settings->battery which shows the pretty graph and list of apps
[17:21] <rick_h> says 64% discharging and the phone already feels laggy
[17:29] <rick_h> damn, and krondor I can confirm that the diff battery breaks the headphone jack detection
[17:29] <rick_h> guess I'll be visiting my local verizon dude after work
[17:30] <snap-l> That's insane
[17:30] <snap-l> but, then again, it is Linux underneath. ;)
[17:30] <rick_h> I blame java!
[17:34] <Wolfger> sounds like a bad (undervolt) battery...
[17:35] <Wolfger> but Java is a good thing to blame too
[17:45] <Wolfger> snap-l: the king of all navel-gazing questions: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/131402/what-is-programming
[17:49] <snap-l> Wolfger: We have a winner
[17:50] <snap-l> I want to know who decided anise was something you could use for biscotti
[17:50] <snap-l> because now I have this odd licorice taste in my mouth
[17:50]  * rick_h looks up anise
[17:51] <rick_h> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-anise.htm for those playing along at home :)
[17:51] <Wolfger> snap-l: the same people who decided candy-coated anise was a good idea?
[17:51] <snap-l> rick_h: The only reason I know it is because I don't like that black licorice taste
[17:54] <rick_h> oh heh, forgot I don't pull my ubuntu Gmail folder into my imap server so totally not seen any MUG/ubuntu-us-mi emails for a long while
[17:54] <snap-l> rick_h: For shame
[17:55] <snap-l> You've missed all of the job announcements
[17:55] <rick_h> all the gib videos
[17:55] <snap-l> Yep
[18:09] <brousch> i <3 anise
[18:15] <Wolfger> dang
[18:15] <Wolfger> I think you insulted him, snap-l
[18:15] <snap-l> heh
[18:18]  * Wolfger looks at large swathes of missing data, and quietly proclaims "Hulk smash!" (...head into keyboard, repeatedly)
[18:20] <snap-l> Wolfger: Nice
[18:20] <brousch> oh man. a metric buttload of kde stuff is updating now
[18:21] <Wolfger> brousch: nice to see that you storming out of the channel over a profound love of anise was short-lived. :-)
[18:22] <brousch> had to reboot from all these updates
[18:22] <brousch> did someone say something not nice about anise?
[18:27] <Wolfger> not since you left
[18:29] <Wolfger> Some days I hate my job... Last week I analyzed the data from 2 weeks ago and it showed pretty clearly that one station (and not the stations around it) was losing about 0.1% of its data....
[18:29] <Wolfger> So boss and I decided we'd wait until [today] and analyze the data for the week beginning 1/16...
[18:31] <Wolfger> Now I'm seeing a mixture of single station data loss, but mostly I'm seeing diagonal swathes of data loss, indicating that for some period of time the server lost data on all stations
[18:32] <brousch> a server problem that is getting progressively worse? raid array failing?
[18:32] <Wolfger> no nothing like that
[18:33] <brousch> anonymous hacking in and jacking your stuff?
[18:34] <Wolfger> Problem 1 is station PLC programming error that I'm trying to prove to the vendor is not working right (hard to do at a 0.1% failure rate because it "looks good" whenever anybody looks at it during production)
[18:35] <Wolfger> Problem 2 with the time-based-loss of all data either indicates network issue, or server CPU/RAM loading issue (seen that before), or possibly overloading PLC data concentrator if these stations I'm looking at are on the same controller
[18:35] <snap-l> Yeah, and of course it passes muster when all eyes are on it
[18:35] <Wolfger> Having 2 problems at once: not fun to troubleshoot
[18:36] <snap-l> COuld it be a debug-related flag?
[18:36] <Wolfger> ?
[18:36] <Wolfger> There is no debug mode. I'm just analyzing production data
[18:36] <snap-l> are you running the test stand in debug mode in order to see the 0.1% data loss?
[18:36] <snap-l> OK
[18:36] <snap-l> Have you tried turning it off and on again
[18:36] <snap-l> ?
[18:36] <Wolfger> LOL
[18:37] <brousch> REBOOT
[18:45] <Wolfger> On an unrelated note, I just got an e-mail from Groupon Goods, and they are trying to sell me IR night vision binoculars with video recording for $35. I think they want me to go to prison...
[18:49] <brousch> Wolfger: i don't know. sounds like they have your tastes down pat
[18:50] <ColonelPanic001> saw those on woot.com a while ago
[18:50] <snap-l> Wolfger: Or amateur pron
[18:52] <Wolfger> I would get into so much trouble, legal and/or otherwise, if I owned that product and it was any good
[18:52] <Wolfger> s/would/could/
[19:09] <snap-l> Oh this is lovely
[19:09] <snap-l> Kobo wants me to ship back the reader to them (again)
[19:09] <rick_h> oh joy :)
[19:10] <snap-l> apparently they're treating it as though it's defective, and out of warranty.
[19:10] <snap-l> so they're asking me to ship it back at my expense to Toronto
[19:10] <Wolfger> get a Kindle
[19:10] <snap-l> It's light enough; I think I can throw it that far
[19:10] <Wolfger> embrace Amazon
[19:10] <snap-l> Wolfger: Already covered. Got a Nook.
[19:10] <brousch> color?
[19:10] <snap-l> Tablet
[19:11] <brousch> nice
[19:11] <snap-l> I told them either to pay for shipping, send me an updated firmware, or close the ticket
[19:11] <snap-l> frankly the only reason I need wifi on this device is to download their content.
[19:11] <snap-l> and if they're not willing to fix that at their expense, then fuck 'em.
[19:13] <brousch> in the ear or in the neck?
[19:13] <snap-l> both
[19:13] <Wolfger> snap-l likes neck
[19:14] <snap-l> Wolfger: YEah, I need the extra toom
[19:14] <snap-l> room
[19:16] <snap-l> for a service-oriented company, this is pathetic
[19:51] <brousch> sounds like penny pinching from a company on the ropes
[20:07] <snap-l> Got a note from Sen. Carl Levin
[20:08] <snap-l> it's the most wishy-washy "I'll review the new bill when it's available" bit of tripe I've read.
[20:09] <snap-l> We need money out of politics.
[20:09] <snap-l> seriously.
[20:11] <Blazeix> oh, snap-l and rick_h, you were talking about buffers > 10 in weechat a while ago
[20:11] <Blazeix> you can press alt+j, then the number, to go to that buffer
[20:15] <snap-l> Blazeix: Oh, that's pretty cool
[20:15] <snap-l> thanks!
[20:31] <snap-l> http://tots.1o24.org/gvim-problems-after-upgrading-to-ubuntu-11-10-oneiric-ocelot/
[20:31] <snap-l> +++++
[20:59] <snap-l> Anyone know how to get Python's logging to use the same filehandle for a different application name
[21:00] <snap-l> I've already set the filehandle, and want to essentially say "Hey, log this too"
[21:00] <snap-l> I'm not seeing an easy way to do this
[21:06] <rick_h> snap-l: you create a filehandle instance, can't you keep that around for access/reuse?
[21:09] <snap-l> I guess I'm having trouble figuring how to keep it around.
[21:09] <rick_h> hmm, interesting. I've not had the gvim issue at all
[21:09] <snap-l> It's driven me nutty
[21:09] <rick_h> snap-l: you'll need some sort of registery or stick it in a module level global, that kind of thing
[21:10] <snap-l> rick_h: so keep a blank variable during init, and then return it?
[21:10] <snap-l> or just use it as a global?
[21:10] <rick_h> snap-l: well you've got some sort of magic logging module you're importing/using right?
[21:11] <snap-l> Yeah
[21:11] <rick_h> so just have a module level constant there. LOG_INSTANCES
[21:11] <rick_h> and when you create the data, stick it in there as a dict or something
[21:11] <snap-l> Ah, I have an idea.
[21:11] <snap-l> Yeah, thanks
[21:11] <rick_h> then you can do things like "if 'myfile' in logger.LOG_INSTANCES:"
[21:11] <snap-l> Needed a little thought push
[21:11] <rick_h> or whatever, depends on how your stuff is setup
[21:11] <rick_h> cool, let me know if you need anything
[21:14] <snap-l> Basically I'm trying to get sqlalchemy to log alongside the regular log output
[21:14] <rick_h> snap-l: right, like the pylons apps do
[21:14] <rick_h> well, as part of the config
[21:15] <rick_h> basically what happens there is that the .ini defines a FH
[21:15] <rick_h> and then that FH is attached to the app/etc loggers
[21:15] <rick_h> and then that ini config is passed to the SA side when it's setup
[21:15] <rick_h> that's the other thing to do, just mandate a logging.ini that all of the code can read/setup
[21:15] <rick_h> and have your logger module provide helpers for that
[21:16] <snap-l> This started so simply. :)
[21:16] <rick_h> :)


[12:40] <Keybuk> thom: no new spam since requiring ajax comments
[12:40] <Keybuk> sweet
[01:48] <thom> noice
[01:48] <Keybuk> now I just have to delete the 50 pages of spam that appeared in the last week <g>
[01:49] <thom> heh, yeah, did that for trackback spam yesterday
[02:02] <thom> presumably page size is template dependent?
[02:02] <Keybuk> no idea
[02:02] <Keybuk> I mean the size of the feedback admin page
[02:02] <Keybuk> 40 is too low
[02:04] <thom> ah, right
[02:04] <thom> yeah
[02:13] <Keybuk> thom: (re: laptops) I'd guess you'd be championing the Lenovo still?
[02:13] <thom> yep, my x60s is awesome love
[02:13] <thom> (and core 2 duo parts should be available soon)
[02:16] <Keybuk> still no touchpad though
[02:16] <thom> feature not bug
[02:17] <Keybuk> for you maybe
[02:17] <Keybuk> I can't use the nipples
[02:17] <thom> that explains a lot *g*
[02:18] <Keybuk> the Dell D420 looks nice
[02:19] <thom> but Dull.
[02:20] <Keybuk> why Dull?
[02:21] <thom> generic term for dell, innit. i've never been impressed with their build quality
[02:22] <Keybuk> the build quality of the new Lenovos some people had at UDS didn't look great either, tbh
[02:22] <thom> and i know what you do to laptops
[02:22] <Keybuk> the new HPs looked fairly rugged
[02:22] <thom> yeah? not seen one
[02:22] <Keybuk> and jdub's Dell looked pretty rugged too
[02:22] <thom> the lenovos around here have taken some pretty hefty battering
[02:23] <Keybuk> someone had one of the new T? series Lenovo - 15" thing
[02:23] <Keybuk> the case had already cracked, and they'd only had it a month or two
[02:23] <Keybuk> I don't really want a 14" laptop though, 12" is what I'm after, and Lenovo don't have a good range
[02:24] <Keybuk> very few options, underpowered comparatively to others in the same range, no touchpad, etc.
[02:24] <Keybuk> screen is somewhat small now too
[02:25] <Keybuk> somewhat low-res, I should say
[02:42] <thom> yeah, 1024x768 is about my only complaint
[02:44] <Keybuk> everyone with an X60 at UDS/AllHands had severe problems getting them to work with projectors
[02:44] <Keybuk> have you had that?
[02:44] <thom> never tried
[02:44] <thom> i'm pretty sure ross has his working though
[05:58] <Keybuk> AlexExtreme: ping
[05:58] <AlexExtreme> Keybuk, pong
[05:58] <Keybuk> AlexExtreme: need an e-mail address for the ChangeLog
[05:58] <Keybuk> is<EMAIL_ADDRESS>ok?
[05:58] <AlexExtreme> yes, that's the right one :)
[05:59] <Keybuk> thanks
[06:53] <_ion> keybuk: Shouldn't TEST_FILE_RESET in nih/test.h have do { } while (0) around the definition?
[06:54] <Keybuk> _ion: yes, probably
[06:56] <_ion> http://johan.kiviniemi.name/tmp/nih_test.h.diff
[07:04] <Keybuk> thanks
[07:06] <_ion> Yeah, it's neat. :-)
[07:18] <Keybuk> TEST_FILENAME needs a do { } while (0) too
[07:36] <Keybuk> AlexExtreme: did you ever solve bug #69950 ?
[07:38] <AlexExtreme> it's a splashy bug I think
[07:38] <AlexExtreme> so close it if you want
[07:47] <AlexExtreme> whoo, 0.3.1 ;)
[07:47] <Keybuk>  28 files changed, 3020 insertions(+), 5350 deletions(-)
[07:48] <Keybuk>  26 files changed, 4891 insertions(+), 7806 deletions(-)
[07:48] <Keybuk> (upstart and nih)
[07:48] <AlexExtreme> cool
[07:48] <Keybuk> quite an impressive code changage, mostly confirmed to the unit tests :p
[07:48] <Keybuk> confined, even, not confirmed
[07:48] <Keybuk> heh
[07:49] <AlexExtreme> :)
[08:15] <AlexExtreme> brb
[08:26] <AlexExtreme> seems to work ok
[08:26] <Keybuk> :-)
[08:26] <Keybuk> it's not much different from 0.3.0, other than the minor bug fixes
[08:27] <AlexExtreme> yeah
[08:27] <AlexExtreme> now, i can play with syslog-ng sometime
[08:30] <AlexExtreme> bbl
[08:56] <Keybuk> hmm
[08:56] <Keybuk> my machine doesn't boot
[08:56] <Keybuk> I'm sure upgrading to 0.3.1 is a mere coincidence
[08:56] <Keybuk> la la la
[08:58] <Keybuk> *shrug* fine that time
[08:58] <Keybuk> weird
[08:59] <AlexExtreme> back
[09:05] <AlexExtreme> heh, that's just annoying
[09:05] <AlexExtreme> i just bumped the gdm package, then a new gdm version gets release
[09:05] <AlexExtreme> *released
[09:07] <Keybuk> always the way
[09:10] <Keybuk> http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/JobStates
[09:10] <Keybuk> ^ Would appreciate some eyes on that
[09:10] <Keybuk> I think it's finally stable and actually correct
[09:10] <maro> ah, nice, initctl list looks normal again :)
[09:13] <AlexExtreme> Keybuk, looks fine to me
[09:13] <AlexExtreme> (nice diagram, btw ;))
[09:13] <Keybuk> wasabi: ^
[09:21] <wasabi> hi
[09:21] <wasabi> oh ok
[09:24] <Keybuk> does that look right?
[09:24] <wasabi> reading
[09:29] <_ion> keybuk: Looks good.
[09:34] <wasabi> Keybuk: Random little thought I had while falling asleep. How does the system shutdown right now?
[09:34] <wasabi> And how should it shutdown? We've talked a lot about starting, but what about system teardown?
[09:34] <wasabi> There are two things I see, the teardown of existing jobs, then the execution of new jobs to put the machine into an off state
[09:35] <wasabi> There's obviously the shutdown signal? How should that be used appropiatly?
[09:35] <Keybuk> one moment
[09:36] <wasabi> I was just modeling it in my head...  Say you have a "poweroff" task. Should that task be invoked on a signal named "shutdown"? Or is that task something which the user executes (by starting it using a control)
[09:36] <wasabi> s/signal/event/
[09:37] <wasabi> If it was a task, it could do stuff like:        for each mounted file system { emit file system unmounting; unmount; emit file system unmounted; } signal kernel to power off.
[09:38] <wasabi> The unmounting of every file system in turn obviously causes everything to stop.
[09:38] <Keybuk> right
[09:38] <Keybuk> so there's a couple of distinct parts to this
[09:44] <wasabi> And it can of course block on emitting both signals, causing it to wait until everything is shutdown.
[09:44] <wasabi> That introduces another interesting thing. Windows has this thing where some services consciously do not stop on poweroff. They don't go through the effort of anything. The system just powers off.
[09:45] <wasabi> They get the stop signal, but know it was caused by the system powering down, and so don't do any work.
[09:46] <wasabi> filesystem unmounted will be available to those jobs that start explicitly because of it, but it's also not a good indicator of the reason for the file system being unmounted.
[09:47] <wasabi> events being causes by other events, etc. Makes me wonder if $UPSTART_JOB should represent that stack. =)
[09:47] <wasabi> Err, $UPSTART_EVENT
[09:49] <wasabi> # The primary process is run when entering the start
[09:49] <wasabi> state.
[09:50] <wasabi> there's no "start" state defiend on the graph, just "exec process"
[09:50] <wasabi> minor inconsistency i suspect
[09:52] <wasabi> I really do feel that all events emitted internally should block though.
[09:52] <wasabi> perhaps just for consistency.
[09:57] <Keybuk> sorry, juggling a dozen things at once
[09:57] <wasabi> s'ok, me too
[09:57] <Keybuk> so right, two distinct parts
[09:57] <Keybuk> one is the services that are running; those I think will be defined in terms of other things
[09:58] <Keybuk> we can largely ignore them from a startup pov. because they're started as a side effect of things like "fhs filesystem", "networking", etc.
[09:58] <Keybuk> likewise I think we can ignore them from a shutdown pov, because they're stopped as a side effect of the same things going away
[09:58] <wasabi> yup
[10:01] <Keybuk> the side effect here is that it'd negate teardown a little
[10:01] <Keybuk> otoh, they'd all happen in parallel and most wouldn't have post-stop scripts
[10:01] <Keybuk> the goal of teardown was to avoid shell scripts that just did kill -TERM with some time-wasting stuff
[10:01] <Keybuk> we did the kill -TERM *anyway* since we sent kill signals
[10:02] <Keybuk> the real problem is the shutdown tasks
[10:02] <Keybuk> the mirror of the startup tasks
[10:02] <Keybuk> the startup tasks are chained off "startup", and do things like mount the filesystems
[10:03] <Keybuk> I think likewise, the shutdown tasks are chained off "shutdown" and do things like unmount them
[10:03] <wasabi> Is shutdown in fact an event?
[10:03] <wasabi> I know it is now.
[10:03] <wasabi> Is that right, is that proper?
[10:03] <Keybuk> it is currently
[10:04] <Keybuk> I think it has to be, as you need to do something to start bringing things down
[10:04] <wasabi> That seems more like using shutdown as a method call.
[10:04] <Keybuk> I tend to think of events as method calls anyway :p
[10:04] <wasabi> Heh.
[10:04] <wasabi> If "shutdown" was a job/task, would that be any different/better/whatever?
[10:05] <wasabi> Other than looking stupid:
[10:05] <wasabi> initctl shutdown start
[10:05] <Keybuk> I think that having it as a job is a little less flexible
[10:05] <Keybuk> you could only do one thing with it, by modifying that task
[10:05] <Keybuk> by having it as an event, you can write any number of tasks to happen simultaneously
[10:05] <wasabi> Well, depends how you want to take it. What happens, in what order, on shutdown?
[10:05] <Keybuk> e.g. bring the filesystem and network down at once
[10:05] <Keybuk> shutdown is tiny
[10:05] <wasabi> You can do that too. The task can emit furthur signals.
[10:05] <Keybuk> kill all processes
[10:06] <Keybuk> unmount filesystems
[10:06] <wasabi> With more specific meanings.
[10:06] <Keybuk> reboot()
[10:06] <wasabi> Are we commiting to reversing the killall processes with unmounting file systems?
[10:06] <Keybuk> right, but I think that it's better that if a distro wants to do that, they write a task that emits those signals "on shutdown"
[10:06] <Keybuk> more flexible
[10:06] <Keybuk> reversing?
[10:06] <wasabi> hmm.
[10:06] <wasabi> well, we are no longer going to kill anything in direct response to shutdown.
[10:07] <wasabi> Them stoppnig will be a byproduct of their dependencies becoming unavailable:
[10:07] <wasabi> networking, file systems.
[10:07] <wasabi> That's what makes me think about the shutdown task.
[10:07] <Keybuk> you'd still need an equivalent to "killall -TERM"
[10:07] <Keybuk> otherwise you can't unmount the filesystems
[10:08] <wasabi> It can do the work of unmounting the file systems, which indirectly emit filesystem-unmounting, and bring down services.
[10:08] <_ion> Can't you do a lazy unmount?
[10:08] <wasabi> And then it can do the work of killall -TERM.
[10:08] <wasabi> Where is that work going?
[10:08] <Keybuk> _ion: shutdown ... kinda critical it happens before we power off :p
[10:08] <wasabi> Hmm... interesting thing, we aren't actually unmounting file systems on shutdown, either...
[10:09] <wasabi> We are just making them RO, aren't we?
[10:09] <Keybuk> wasabi: I figured there'd be a shutdown task started by the shutdown event :)
[10:09] <Keybuk> wasabi: currently we unmount them
[10:09] <Keybuk> we make the root ro
[10:09] <wasabi> even /?
[10:09] <_ion> kebyuk: Ah. :-)
[10:09] <wasabi> And there is some sort of guarentee that /bin is on the same fs as /
[10:09] <wasabi> heh
[10:09] <wasabi> guess there'd have to be he
[10:10] <wasabi> and /usr shouldn' tmatter.
[10:10] <Keybuk> yeah, you can't have /bin and /sbin different to / :)
[10:10] <Keybuk> otherwise you don't have /sbin/init and /bin/sh <g>
[10:10] <wasabi> So, the shutdown task loops file systems, determines which it should unmount, does so, resulting in services stopping.
[10:10] <wasabi> I'm thinkiing this
[10:11] <Keybuk> windows services knowing stop was caused by poweroff ...
[10:11] <Keybuk> we have that now in two ways
[10:11] <Keybuk> 1) UPSTART_EVENT = "shutdown"
[10:11] <wasabi> for fs in / /usr /usr/local /var /whatever_some_user_has; do ( initctl emit fs-bye-bye $fs *BLOCKING*; umount $fs; initctl emit fs-gone ) *; done
[10:11] <wasabi> Err, that last * should be a &
[10:12] <Keybuk> 2) any event after shutdown (or not) can be matched using complex-event-config
[10:12] <wasabi> UPSTART_EVENT won't == shutdown.
[10:12] <wasabi> It will equal something sill like network-going-away
[10:12] <Keybuk> right
[10:12] <wasabi> s/sill/silly/
[10:12] <wasabi> Which is what makes me wonder. Should UPSTART_EVENT be the stack?
[10:13] <Keybuk> it could be
[10:13] <wasabi> That wa you could go if [ $UPSTART_EVENT starts with "shutdown" ]
[10:13] <Keybuk> start state defined on graph => it's defined as the name of the "exec process" node in the text below the graph
[10:13] <wasabi> Another interesting thing... from the "shutdown" task.
[10:14] <wasabi> If it sees that an event it emits breaks, such as fs-umounting, it can revert.
[10:15] <wasabi> If /usr can't be umounted, it can log, then remount everything.
[10:15] <wasabi> or just issue "startup" again.
[10:15] <Keybuk> right
[10:15] <wasabi> That can go all the way down to being unable to remount / ro
[10:15] <Keybuk> started/stopped being blocking events => while it would be "consistent", they wouldn't actually block anything
[10:15] <wasabi> quite interesting. ;)
[10:15] <Keybuk> the interesting thing about the starting/stopping events is that they can actually block the job from starting or stopping
[10:16] <Keybuk> started/stopped are emitted at the end of a state transition -- so if they block, it has absolutely no effect
[10:16] <wasabi> That's true.
[10:16] <wasabi> You are right. ;)
[10:17] <Keybuk> so it'd be an extra code headache to produce no discernable effect :p
[10:20] <wasabi> I guess, what I'd be afraid of, is by making shutdown an event, is that other software will in fact attempt to shut itself down on shutdown.
[10:20] <Keybuk> no worry about that
[10:20] <Keybuk> e.g. getty :p
[10:20] <wasabi> When it should really not do so, it should wait for it's required resources to go away
[10:21] <wasabi> And I think there needs to be one entry task for the procedure of shutting down... so it can do network/filesystem/whatever and detect failures to revert both.
[10:22] <wasabi> network for instance doesn't go down in response to an event, it goes down because something tells it to.
[10:23] <Keybuk> (back in 15-30 min)
[10:49] <Keybuk> ok
[10:49] <Keybuk> yeah for the most part I agree
[10:49] <Keybuk> I think the reason I dislike having a forced shutdown task is that it's ... icky
[10:50] <Keybuk> of course, I guess we could define neither in upstart, and just let distros decide whether they do "initctl start shutdown" or "initctl emit shutdown"
[10:50] <Keybuk> but again, that's kinda icky, because it removes some consistency
[10:50] <Keybuk> they'd all have a different /sbin/shutdown
[10:53] <theCore> how often the bzr branch (http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~keybuk/upstart/main/) is sync'd?
[10:54] <Keybuk> te
[10:54] <Keybuk> theCore: dunno, hourly or so I guess
[10:54] <theCore> rev 23?
[10:54] <Keybuk> 297
[10:54] <Keybuk> syndicate scott% bzr revno http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~keybuk/upstart/main/
[10:54] <Keybuk> 297
[10:55] <theCore> oh....
[10:55] <theCore> nevermind
[10:55] <Keybuk> did you bzr pull?
[10:55] <theCore> yes
[10:55] <theCore> the tree is sync'd
[10:56] <Keybuk> ...but...?
[10:56] <theCore> bzr's wasn't clear
[10:56] <theCore> bzr's output
[10:56] <theCore> Using saved location: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~keybuk/upstart/main/
[10:56] <theCore> All changes applied successfully.
[10:56] <theCore> 23 revision(s) pulled.
[10:57] <theCore> I thought it was rev23
[10:57] <Keybuk> ah, heh
[10:57] <Keybuk> nah, it means you got 23 new revisions
[10:57] <Keybuk> top one should be NEWS: Updated
[10:57] <theCore> yeah, I figured it out
[10:57] <theCore> bzr log -r 10..23
[10:57] <theCore> was kinda weird
[10:58] <Keybuk> bzr log -r $(($(bzr revno) - 23)..
[10:58] <Keybuk> err
[10:58] <Keybuk> bzr log -r $(($(bzr revno) - 23))..
[10:58] <Keybuk> :p
[10:59] <theCore> ah, I just found better way
[10:59] <theCore> bzr log -r -10...
[10:59] <theCore> er, bzr log -r -10..
[10:59] <Keybuk> ooh
[10:59] <Keybuk> that's shiny
[11:00] <Keybuk> I didn't know about that <g>
[11:00] <theCore> me, either
[11:04] <Keybuk> theCore: pushed the "Bump version to 0.3.2" revision
[11:04] <Keybuk> see how long that takes to show up
[11:07] <theCore> ah, I know what I am going to do
[11:08] <theCore> I will translate upstart in French :)
[11:09] <Keybuk> sweet
[11:09] <Keybuk> I haven't yet worked Rosetta out
[11:12] <Keybuk> I'm vaguely nagging for it to just have a bzr branch with the translated po files on it :)
[11:12] <Keybuk> so I can just bzr merge http://rosetta.launchpad.net/products/upstart
[11:12] <Keybuk> :p
[11:14] <theCore> oh
[11:15] <Keybuk> I click a button, it sends me a tarball
[11:16] <Keybuk> all seems a bit ... primitive
[11:17] <theCore> Writing in French with a English keyboard is painful
[11:18] <theCore> I almost never write in French
[11:18] <theCore> I only speak it


[01:26] <qingluo> hi all, why i use lxde with lubuntu. it requires my passwd when i press shutdown button in graphic mode
[01:30] <hyperair> do you have any other users logged in? i think polkit requires root access to shutdown a system that has others still logged in.
[01:36] <hyperair> no wait, maybe it's a consolekit failing
[01:54] <qingluo> yep
[01:54] <qingluo> i have a root log in background
[01:54] <qingluo> linaro's system
[02:39] <ianorlin> I think it is so people don't log other users out and mess up their data
[02:42] <hyperair> ianorlin: yeah i'd think so too, but the polkit files don't seem to show any difference in behaviour..
[02:43] <hyperair> check out the two <action>...</action> blocks from this command: sed -n '/power-off"/,/\/action/p; /power-off-multiple-session/,/\/action/p' /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/org.freedesktop.login1.policy
[02:45] <Unit193> hyperair: dbus-send --system --print-reply --dest=org.freedesktop.login1 /org/freedesktop/login1 org.freedesktop.login1.Manager.CanPowerOff    if you are using logind.
[02:45] <hyperair> ooih
[02:46] <hyperair> it says "challenge"
[02:46] <hyperair> CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
[02:46] <hyperair> wait, how do i accept this challenge?
[02:46] <Unit193> string "yes"
[02:46] <hyperair> hmm.
[02:46] <hyperair> maybe it means to prompt me?
[02:46] <hyperair> i mean i have a guest account active right now
[02:47] <hyperair> so maybe it just prompts me for yes/no confirmation
[02:47] <hyperair> hang on, wasn't logind supposed to replace consolekit? i still have consolekit running.
[02:48] <hyperair> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/logind/ this says possible, but only after authorization.
[02:49] <hyperair> poking around consolekit's dbus methods says that CanRestart -> false, and CanStop -> false
[02:49] <hyperair> hmm
[02:50] <hyperair> GetSessions() gives me a blank array
[02:50] <hyperair> derp
[02:54] <Unit193> `ck-list-sessions` ?
[02:54] <hyperair> nothin
[02:54] <hyperair> is it supposed to have stuff?
[02:54] <hyperair> or is logind supposed to handle it now?
[02:54] <Unit193> logind is supposed to, but not so sure how it works in Lubuntu.
[02:55] <hyperair> well, i'm on ubuntu
[02:55] <hyperair> eh interesting, i can remove consolekit.
[02:55] <hyperair> i don't think it's being used.
[02:55] <Unit193> Logind is what's used there.
[02:56] <hyperair> except by KDE, apparently.
[02:56] <hyperair>  libpolkit-qt-1-1 : Depends: consolekit but it is not going to be installed.
[02:56] <Unit193> hyperair: dpkg -l | grep systemd
[02:56] <hyperair> and with it, goes kdelibs5-plugins
[06:41] <llogiq> Hi folks. I just updated to 13.10 and now ssh always asks for my rsa key. What has changed and how can I restore the old behavior?
[06:45] <hyperair> llogiq: what's the old behaviour?
[06:45] <roscogruen> i'm wanting to use unetbootin to make a usb install stick.  "lubuntu" is not a choice but other ubuntu types are.  which do i choose
[06:45] <roscogruen> ?
[06:45] <hyperair> asking for your rsa key seems like correct behaviour to me
[06:45] <Unit193> hyperair: Gnome keyring.
[06:45] <Unit193> roscogruen: Download ISO, use the ISO option.
[06:45] <hyperair> Unit193: oh the agent
[06:46] <hyperair> is lubuntu using the upstart user session too?
[06:46] <roscogruen> what iso option, Unit193 ?
[06:47] <roscogruen> ooooh
[06:47] <Unit193> Yep, in unetbootin.
[06:47] <llogiq> Unit193, thanks, that should do the trick
[06:48] <Unit193> hyperair: I thought they all were, but not sure and haven't upgraded yet. :P
[06:49] <llogiq> Nope, that didn't do anything. It still asks for the passphrase to my rsa key.
[06:50] <hyperair> llogiq: you need to get the ssh-agent info
[06:50] <hyperair> it's in the SSH_AUTH_SOCK environment variable
[06:50] <roscogruen> i've a usb stick in the port now but it doesn't pick it up.  suggests i reformat to FAT32.  i'm lost
[06:55] <hyperair> run blkid on the usb stick partition
[06:55] <hyperair> as root
[06:56] <hyperair> Unit193: okay, i've done some poking around, and i have absolutely no idea how gnome-sessoin handles environment variables any more.
[06:56] <hyperair> Unit193: it used to be set inside /etc/X11/Xsession.d/
[06:56] <hyperair> but it's shifted away to /etc/xdg/autostart/gnome-keyring-ssh.desktop
[06:56] <hyperair> but afaik nothing plugs directly into the gnome-session process, so how does it set environment variables?
[06:57] <hyperair> =\
[06:57] <hyperair> oh Apps in this phase can make use of a D-Bus interface to set environment variables in gnome-session's environment. This can be used for things like $GTK_MODULES, $GNOME_KEYRING_SOCKET, etc
[06:57] <hyperair> it's broken for lubuntu then.
[06:58] <hyperair> derp
[06:58] <llogiq> yep.
[06:59] <llogiq> I got a /tmp/ssh-LUserGaRBleD/agent.1234 socket
[07:01] <llogiq> @roscogruen: Maybe unplugging it and plugging it in again might help? Otherwise, which version of UNetBootin do you use? My version here has Lubuntu alright.
[07:02] <llogiq> roscogruen, if you want to format the stick, mkfs.vfat is your friend.
[07:03] <hyperair> llogiq: can you check if your user has a process called init running?
[07:04] <Unit193> hyperair: What about /etc/xdg/lxsession/Lubuntu/desktop.conf?
[07:04] <hyperair> oh i didn't know there was something like that.
[07:04]  * hyperair isn't familiar with lxsession
[07:05] <hyperair> but gnome-keyring-daemon invoked with `gnome-keyring-daemon -s` shows you the environment variables
[07:05] <hyperair> so you could basically put something like [ -n "$DISPLAY" ] && eval $(gnome-kerying-daemon -s)
[07:09] <llogiq> hyperair, "ps aux | grep init" returns, among the grep and /sbin/init a "init --user" entry
[07:09] <llogiq> So yes, the user init is running.
[07:10] <llogiq> The gnome-keyring-daemon also runs, if that helps
[07:10] <hyperair> eh?
[07:10] <hyperair> by default?
[07:11] <hyperair> or not?
[07:12] <llogiq> I think I started it when trying things out.
[07:12] <llogiq> Maybe I'll just reboot and come back if the problem persists.
[07:13] <hyperair> well the simplest way is to just dump this line: [ -n "$DISPLAY" ] && eval $(gnome-keyring-daemon --start)
[07:13] <hyperair> inside your .bashrc
[07:13] <hyperair> you just need to log out and log back in
[07:13] <hyperair> or if you're trying out the bashrc trick, then open a new terminal
[07:17] <llogiq> hyperair, this doesn't export the values
[07:18] <llogiq> Ah, my fault, I mis-copied it :-)
[07:19] <llogiq> Thanks, hyperair.
[07:20] <llogiq> What needs to be done for this to be fixed in the main Lubuntu? I know ISOs will not change, but which packages should be changed?
[07:20] <hyperair> llogiq: oh yeah whoops, sorry about that.
[07:21] <hyperair> llogiq: it's eval $(set -e; gnome-keyring-daemon --start)
[07:21] <hyperair> oh and unset -e
[07:21] <hyperair> eh not -e
[07:21] <hyperair> -a
[07:21] <hyperair> eval $(set -a gnome-keyring-daemon --start; unset -a)
[07:23] <llogiq> hyperair, this gives me an error: "bash: unset: -a: Invalid Option"
[07:23] <hyperair> whoops
[07:24] <llogiq> I'll go with your original version: [ -n "$DISPLAY" ] && eval $(gnome-keyring-daemon --start)  - it works for me
[07:24] <llogiq> Thank you for the workaround.
[07:24] <hyperair> uh okay
[07:24] <llogiq> Again, does anybody know which package would we need to patch to bring this fix into mainline?
[07:25] <hyperair> this wasn't a fix
[07:25] <hyperair> this was a hack
[07:25] <llogiq> Sure thing. Ok, let me rephrase that.
[07:25] <llogiq> What can be done to fix this problem in mainline?
[07:25] <hyperair> the right fix would probably be to get gnome-keyring ported to upstart
[07:26] <hyperair> so that it sets the env vars inside upstart instead
[07:26] <llogiq> Ok
[07:36] <llogiq> There is a file /usr/share/upstart/sessions/ssh-agent.conf which contains what you specified, except it uses ssh-agent instead of gnome-keyring-daemon
[07:39] <llogiq> so it should (in theory) already work. I'll revert the bashrc hack, reboot and see if that was an odd post-installation error.
[07:39] <llogiq> brb
[07:43] <llogiq> No, that doesn't work for some reason.
[07:50] <llogiq> How do I debug upstart?
[07:50] <llogiq> I'd like to know if the ssh-agent job was run
[08:32] <hyperair> inictl list
[08:32] <hyperair> er
[08:32] <hyperair> initctl list
[08:41] <llogiq> thanks, hyperair - ssh-agent is running. Why doesn't it cache the id_rsa passphrase?
[08:41] <hyperair> llogiq: because ssh-agent is the wrong one.
[08:42] <llogiq> I see.
[08:42] <hyperair> llogiq: with ssh-agent, you have to manually add it via ssh-add
[08:42] <llogiq> So the solution would be to disable ssh-agent and use a similar upstart script to run gnome-keyring-daemon?
[08:42] <hyperair> gnome-keyring-daemon implements the ssh-agent interface, but isn't the same as ssh-agent
[08:42] <hyperair> yesh something like that.
[08:43] <hyperair> the existing ssh-agent script is in /usr/share/upstart/sessions/ssh-agent.conf
[08:43] <llogiq> I know.
[08:43] <hyperair> right
[08:43] <hyperair> just cp it into ~/.config/upstart/ as gnome-keyring-daemon.conf and modify it to use g-k-d instead
[08:46] <llogiq> Interestingly, synaptics shows libgnome-keyring0 as defect.
[08:47] <llogiq> Also gnome-keyring comes with /etc/xdg/autostart files
[08:47] <llogiq> But apparently that works only for gnome.
[08:49] <qingluo> my lubuntu didn't recognize hdmi screen well, how can i set the xorg.conf file to recognize it?
[08:59] <llogiq> I'll be back after trying out my upstart script.
[09:02] <llogiq> Yep, it worked.#
[09:02] <llogiq> Someone interested in getting the upstart script into the gnome-keyring-daemon package?
[09:03] <llogiq> (which could effectively replace the xdg autostart files)
[09:05] <brainwash> the keyring cannot be enabled via lubuntu's default apps config dialog?
[09:07] <Unit193> lxsession-edit, I saw it in there, on Raring.  I still don't know much about Lubuntu on Saucy. :/
[09:10] <llogiq> Unit193, apparently it is no longer available on saucy. But as hyperair said, using upstart is the right fix.
[09:10] <llogiq> So why not fix it while we're at it?
[09:18] <brainwash> lxsession-default-apps?
[09:19] <brainwash> here's a picture of it http://i.stack.imgur.com/HTvnJ.png
[09:20] <llogiq> brainwash: I know it (having run Lubuntu since 10.10)
[09:21] <llogiq> Still, it's not here by default.
[09:21] <llogiq> I'm in the process of creating a bug on launchpad attaching the upstart script.
[09:22] <brainwash> does lubuntu even utilize the upstart user session?
[09:23] <brainwash> looks like it does
[09:27] <llogiq> Apparently, yes. And I just opened bug #1244138
[09:27] <llogiq> thanks, ubottu
[09:27] <llogiq> :-)
[09:28] <llogiq> cu folks, I've got work to do.
[09:32] <brainwash> mmh, but lxsession-default-apps offers the user to enable xdg autostart entries or select a default app to manage the keyring
[10:26] <llogiq> Hi again. Lunch break ;-)
[10:27] <bioterror> llogiq, if you want to chat, you can join #lubuntu-offtopic
[10:28] <llogiq> Since 13.10 can lock the screen using lightdm-greeter, can I remove xscreensaver?
[10:31] <Unit193> It can't.
[10:33] <llogiq> Unit193, Go to the logout screen and select "Lock".
[10:33] <Unit193> llogiq: ...Then hit CTRL+Alt+F7 ;)
[10:33] <brainwash> bug 1205384
[10:34]  * Unit193 wonders if brainwash highlights on that.
[10:34] <brainwash> :P
[10:39] <lehongnguyen> hi everyone
[10:39] <lehongnguyen> when I doubleclick on an icon, how can I know it works
[10:40] <lehongnguyen> sometimes I open it few times, because I don't see anything open
[10:53] <llogiq> brainwash, Unit193 : Great. I'll probably be OK with suckless (in fact I quite like it), but I'll need something more user friendly for my wife.
[10:54] <llogiq> cu folks (back to work)
[11:19] <ozbrk> hi guys are there any other menu appellts which we can use
[11:19] <ozbrk> I mean different menu styles
[13:31] <nb-eca> greetings
[13:31] <nb-eca> some languages do not display well on my firefox or chrome
[13:31] <nb-eca> im on lxle btw
[13:31] <nb-eca> any ideas?
[13:48] <holstein> nb-eca: lxle is its own thing.. they might have a support channel.. not sure
[13:48] <holstein> nb-eca: what languages do what exactly? do you have or want to take a screenshot?
[13:53] <nb-eca> oh sorry
[13:53] <nb-eca> some korean and chinese characters
[13:54] <nb-eca> i'd post this in their forums
[13:54] <nb-eca> :)
[13:56] <nb-eca> i'll *
[13:56] <llogiq> hi again. Apropos characters: Has anyone else noticed that with 13.10 sometimes characters will show up wrong? Marking the text seems to repair it.
[14:10] <brainwash> llogiq: visual glitch? intel gpu?
[14:12] <llogiq> brainwash: I'm afraid yes.
[14:13] <brainwash> some intel chips are affected by this weird font rendering issue, if SNA is being used as accel method (default)
[14:13] <llogiq> How do I change the method?
[14:13] <brainwash> bug 1098334
[14:13] <llogiq> Thanks, brainwash
[14:15] <brainwash> llogiq: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Intel_Graphics#Choose_acceleration_method
[14:16] <brainwash> UXA was the previous default method
[14:16] <brainwash> it's slower, but does cause less visual glitches
[14:21] <llogiq> cu folks.
[19:24] <Stretchy> Hi there, new to Lubuntu and excited to really dive in but I'm having an issue determining what firmware I need to get wireless to work.  I'm sure you get this question all the time so I figured this was the best place to look.
[19:27] <Unit193> Stretchy: Open lxterminal,  lspci
[19:30] <mikkie> I have a big problem with my Screen-Configuration. -> I have two n210 (nvidia) cards in my pc and four screens but however I try (nvidia-settings or xorg.conf) I cant set them right to split screen all over them. please help
[19:31] <Unit193> mikkie: Nvidia settings I thought would take care of it, but have you installed and tried using arandr?
[19:32] <mikkie> yes I have tried both
[19:32] <mikkie> arandr lets me turn on and off the screens of the first graphic card
[19:33] <mikkie> the other are gray
[19:33] <mikkie> grayed-out
[19:34] <mikkie> nvidia-settings shows them all but doesnt do the job
[19:36] <mikkie> and even if it does than I have two running and the others are turned off or black (when move mouse over it turns from arrow to X) or just background of loginscreen
[19:37] <Unit193> I have setup dual monitors only once, and it went off without a hitch, so not much more I can say there.  Maybe someone else might know.  The nvidia drivers are in use I'd presume?
[19:38] <mikkie> I think so
[19:38]  * ianorlin unfortuanley hasn't treid multiple monitors
[19:39] <Unit193> `lsmod`  to find out.
[19:39] <mikkie> is there an option to do it with xrandr?
[19:41] <mikkie> mikkie@desktop:/media/data/home/mikkie$ lsmod | egrep "nouveau|nvidia|vesa"
[19:41] <mikkie> nvidia               9430532  222
[19:44] <GoGoo> The problem with Lubuntu 13.10 is that it does not have the plug and play printers drivers like the other Ubuntu’s do.  I had to manually add the printer driver of my HP Deskjet 1050A All-in-One printer by going into the Printer Settings Menu in Lubuntu.  It allowed me to add the recommended driver for my printer but when I tried to print something with it nothing came out of the printer.
[19:45] <Unit193> Install hplip.
[19:45] <GoGoo> The problem with the HPLIP is that you need the internet to install it completely.  But I do not have the internet at home so can somebody tell how I can get my printer working without it?
[19:48] <phillw> Unit193: does not the .deb have all the data? It's ~ 6.3 Mb
[19:49] <GoGoo> The HPLIB does not come with a .DEB file.
[19:49] <Unit193> GoGoo: I see nothing in the post or preinst scripts that would prevent it.  Sure it does!  apt-get download hplip  on a computer with internet.
[19:50] <Unit193> phillw: Check it yourself, see if it does.  People fail, I may overlook something.
[19:50] <GoGoo> The HPLIP is .RUN file or a TAR.GZ file.
[19:50] <phillw> GoGoo: also you may want to look at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1157609 which is specifically for installing on a machine with no internet.
[19:51] <phillw> GoGoo: the .deb is available at http://packages.debian.org/sid/all/hplip-data/download
[19:51] <ianorlin> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptCdrom would this be of help
[19:51] <phillw> but I think that forum thread may better explain things.
[19:52] <Unit193> ianorlin: Better to use apt-offline
[19:53] <ianorlin> ok
[19:53] <ianorlin> thank you
[19:53] <GoGoo> Thanks guys.  To resolve the problem I installed Xubuntu.  Its has plug and play drivers.  But I prefer Lubuntu over Xubuntu.
[19:55] <Stretchy> Unit193: Thanks for the help.  I'll try that out.
[19:55] <wxl> Stretchy: did you get taken care of?
[19:56] <Unit193> Well, not fully.
[19:56] <Stretchy> I'm going to try the lspci in terminal
[19:56] <wxl> ah, k
[19:56] <wxl> that would be helpful :)
[19:56]  * wxl goes back to work
[19:56] <phillw> GoGoo: that's the advantage of being dvd sized :D Lubuntu, however, are comitted to CD size.
[19:56] <Stretchy> I'm away from my laptop that I'm trying to get working so I can't do much from here but I'll take your advice and give it a try when I get home.
[19:57] <Unit193> Stretchy: That will only tell you what card you have, you have to know/figure out from there what you need.
[19:57] <wxl> Stretchy: unfortunately that's not so much advice as it is a necessary investigative step that's a precursor to giving advice
[19:57] <wxl> Stretchy: what kind of laptop is it?
[19:57] <Unit193> !bcm | Doesn't mean it's this, but tends to be more often than not. :P
[19:58] <wxl> tru dat!
[19:58] <Stretchy> I see.  I have to admit I don't have a whole lot of experience with this but I'm trying to learn all that I can.
[19:58] <wxl> the word "firmware" kind of tipped me off :)
[19:59] <Stretchy> it's a Toshiba Satellite...can't think of the specific model off the top of my head...
[19:59] <Stretchy> Let me look through my notes as I wrote it down somewhere because I new I'd need to know it at some point in this process
[20:00] <wxl> yeah there are like 30,000 of the darn things
[20:00] <Stretchy> yeah that's why I can't remember off the top of my head...
[20:00] <wxl> :)
[20:02] <Stretchy> I'm going to head out, fire up the ol' laptop when I get home later, and hop on here and do this all "live".  That'll probably be the best plan of attack...
[20:02] <Stretchy> thanks for your help so far and I'll be back later
[20:09] <Unit193> Make sure to ping wxl when you do! :----D
[22:32] <sisterFister> hello is anyone here?
[22:33] <phillw> !ask | sisterFister
[22:33] <phillw>  :D
[22:35] <sisterFister> Thanks. So I'm using Lubuntu and really like it. The thing is that in the terminal the letters are spaced very strangely, some overlapping and others too far apart. Changing the fonts to monospace in the "customize look and feel" options didn't solve the issue either. Anyone know how to fix this?
[22:35] <wxl> sisterFister: screenshot?
[22:36] <phillw> !screenshot | phillw
[22:37] <phillw> wxl: the factoid is wrong :(
[22:37] <wxl> sisterFister: you know how to handle a screenshot?
[22:38] <sisterFister> wxl: lol not here in lubuntu
[22:38] <wxl> sisterFister: just hit print screen. it'll be in ~
[22:38] <phillw> !screenshot | wxl
[22:38] <sisterFister> i pressed the button and am used to it being saved in the pictures folder
[22:39] <sisterFister> it's not in ~
[22:39] <phillw> sisterFister: it get saved to your home directory
[22:39] <wxl> ~ = /home/$(whoami)
[22:40] <wxl> if it's not there for some reason, ~/Desktop is possible
[22:40] <sisterFister> not there either.
[22:40] <wxl> oh for pete's sake
[22:40] <sisterFister> I know how to take a screenshot lol.
[22:40] <phillw> wxl: I'll leave this with you, having both of us chatting will complicate; but PrtSc gets saved where you said
[22:41] <sisterFister> how do i shot screen?
[22:41] <sisterFister> jk
[22:41] <sisterFister> i'll be back in a bit guys.
[22:41] <wxl> sisterFister: try scrot /path/to/filename
[23:59] <sisterFister> so I installed knapshot to get a screenshot. Print sc key didn't seem to be auto saving to anywhere. Anyway any insight as to why my terminal letter spacing looks this way? http://imgur.com/085KN3r


[06:11] <ESphynx> hey guys, anybody aware of a bug effectively looking like you're looking at the back buffer?
[06:23] <RAOF> ESphynx: Got some context? :))
[06:34] <ESphynx> RAOF: hi
[06:34] <ESphynx> basically, our toolkit is rendering to a pixmap and then right away doing a XCopyArea() to the Xlib window to update the screen
[06:34] <ESphynx> I end up where pressing up highlights a selection down, and pressing down highlights a seleciton up sometimes...
[06:37] <ESphynx> It's on and off and very strange! As much as I would like to think it's a bug in our toolkit and fix it, I've never ran into this before running Saucy on this new laptop... (nVidia drivers)
[06:43] <RAOF> Hm. How are you rendering to the pixmap?
[06:43] <ESphynx> Xlib / XRender calls
[06:44] <ESphynx> For some reason I used to do an XFlush right after the XCopyArea(), it's still there...
[06:45] <RAOF> You're not doing something strange with threads?
[06:45] <ESphynx> The toolkit is using threads to handle events...
[06:45] <RAOF> AFAIK the X protocol ensures that your rendering should be done before XCopyArea kicks in.
[06:46] <ESphynx> I would think so, since both the pixmap and window are server side objects, right?
[06:46] <ESphynx> I had even tried an XFlush() before the XCopyArea, I thought that helped, but in the end the problem still happened
[06:47] <ESphynx> I have one thread doing a select on the X socket
[06:48] <ESphynx> which essentially just wakes up the main thread, which will use XCheckIfEvent()
[06:48] <ESphynx> I would suspect a display driver issue or something?
[06:50] <RAOF> ESphynx: Plausibly.
[06:50] <RAOF> ESphynx: Does it happen under different compositors / no compositor?
[06:51] <ESphynx> well I was in Unity right now
[06:51] <ESphynx> how can I try no compositor
[06:51] <ESphynx> GNOME Flashback (No effects) would that be good/
[06:51] <RAOF> Yeah, I think so.
[06:52] <RAOF> You can also install metacity and run metacity --replace
[06:54] <ESphynx> RAOF: In GNOME FB no fx, haven't been able to reproduce it yet! with quite a fair bit of hammering
[06:55] <ESphynx> (To the detriment of my brand new lappy's poor keyboard :( )
[06:55] <ESphynx> What does that say?
[06:55] <RAOF> That it's possibly a damage issue.
[06:55] <RAOF> (Or a Unity issue ☺)
[06:56] <ESphynx> I've seen it in GNOME as well
[06:59] <ESphynx> (though not in GNOME classic it would seem)
[07:14] <ESphynx> :S I can't even reproduce it in Unity now!
[07:16] <ESphynx> It might be the new Unity that fixed it? I got a EN showing up now in the title bar
[07:27] <ESphynx> damn all this time I was testing the GL driver :S
[07:28] <ESphynx> definitely get the issue in Unity!
[08:02] <ESphynx> OK I have definitely reproduced it in Gnome Classic as well.
[08:06] <ESphynx> and in Gnome flashback (with fx as well)
[08:08] <ESphynx> that is, only with fx
[08:15] <ESphynx> Strange thing happens on Gnome Flashback with Effects: clicking on close button in top/left corner turns the title bar gray rather than closing the app ... It's basically very messed up. Does this mean it's the compositor? As soon as effects are on, everything is messed up
[08:19] <ESphynx> Without effects, the close button works just fine!
[08:24] <ESphynx> See http://ecere.com/mantis/view.php?id=987 -- exhausted, gonna go get some rest :| keep sleeping well guys :P
[12:34] <GuidoPallemans> are there any guides on how to use the styles? I want to change the background color of all my pages and the foreground color of all my text
[12:50] <GuidoPallemans> put a new app submission on the subreddit, will now post (the same) to g+
[12:56] <Ampelbein> GuidoPallemans: You might be better off asking in #ubuntu-app-devel
[12:56] <GuidoPallemans> hmm yes, maybe :D


[05:53] <pitti> Good morning
[06:01] <larsu> good morning!
[06:05] <pitti> hey larsu, wie gehts?
[06:06] <larsu> pitti: sehr gut. Hatte ein entspanntes Wochendende. Und dir?
[06:07] <pitti> larsu: wir auch, sehr gut
[06:09] <larsu> schön :)
[07:19] <mlankhor1t> morning
[07:22] <didrocks> morning
[07:23] <duflu> Morning...
[07:24] <duflu> You know what would be helpful to users? If they didn't have to know the trick to tick the box that mostly talks about MP3 support in order to get a Broadcom wireless driver installed (during Ubuntu installation)
[07:40] <seb128> good morning desktopers
[07:41] <didrocks> hey seb128
[07:41] <seb128> duflu, hey, it wouldn't be practical to list all the things included under that option, but we could perhaps improve the description ... I guess suggestions in bug reports are welcome ;-)
[07:41] <seb128> lut didrocks
[07:42] <duflu> seb128: Yeah I know. Was actually wondering if anyone had plans already
[07:45] <seb128> I don't think so
[07:47] <duflu> seb128: What's the installer project name?
[07:47] <seb128> duflu, ubiquity
[07:47] <duflu> seb128: Thanks
[07:47] <seb128> yw!
[07:48] <darkxst> seb128, pitti, didrocks hey
[07:48] <seb128> hey
[07:48] <duflu> Hmm, last I did hacking in the realm of broadcom wireless they were putting their latest drivers in-kernel. Or is that only for newer chips?
[07:49] <didrocks> hey darkxst
[07:49] <darkxst> seb128, I attacked nautilus, if you want to upload it to -desktop ppa, bug 1393252
[07:49] <pitti> bonojur didrocks et seb128, hey darkxst
[07:49] <didrocks> morning pitti
[07:57] <seb128> hey pitti
[07:57] <seb128> darkxst, k, I'm adding to my review list
[07:57] <seb128> was there anything tricky/special.?
[07:57] <seb128> or just the headerbar?
[07:58] <seb128> pitti, wie gehts? had a good w.e?
[07:59] <pitti> seb128: yeah, very relaxing; we went to the cinema, badminton, sauna, and had some nice long walk yesterday
[07:59] <pitti> seb128: comment était ton w.e. ?
[08:01] <seb128> c'était bien ! though took it easy, trying to get over the cold I have since wednesday, already feeling much better so that's good, only the "annoyances" remaining
[08:02] <seb128> went to buy for some sport shoes on saturday (on a shop that film your steps and look at the feet position/defaults and recommend adapted shoes), dinner with friends in the evening and swimming on sunday, otherwise mostly spent time indoor relaxing
[08:03] <seb128> it rained most of the w.e
[08:03] <duflu> seb128: Heh, yeah the bug exists... has done for 3 years :)
[08:05] <seb128> duflu, no action on it/waiting on design input  I guess?
[08:06] <duflu> seb128: No design was involved, but also waiting on some developer keen enough to propose a fix (and translations?)
[08:07] <duflu> Design _was_ involved.
[08:07] <seb128> translations are not an issue if we change it in vivid
[08:13] <darkxst> seb128, menu patch was the worst, mostly otherwise ok
[08:13] <seb128> k
[08:32] <desrt> hi hi eurotypes
[08:35] <didrocks> hey desrt, in Europe again?
[08:35] <desrt> nope.  vegas.
[08:35] <didrocks> quite late then
[08:35] <desrt> only midnight.5
[08:35] <desrt> just got back to hotel room
[08:36] <didrocks> which kind of sprint are you at?
[08:36] <desrt> uh.... family sprint?
[08:37] <didrocks> ah, vegas family sprint ;)
[08:49] <seb128> hey desrt, having fun there? ;-)
[09:03] <Laney> hey hey
[09:04] <pitti> hey desrt
[09:04] <pitti> hey Laney, good morning
[09:06] <seb128> hey Laney, how are you? good w.e?
[09:07] <didrocks> morning Laney
[09:07] <Laney> hey pitti seb128 didrocks
[09:08] <Laney> very good weekend, lots of family visits!
[09:08] <Laney> (= eating out)
[09:08] <Laney> hope you all did too ;-)
[09:09] <seb128> yeah, w.e was good ;-)
[10:45] <czajkowski> seb128: didrocks any idea where to best promote an event in Paris aimed at Mobile Dev? Free workshop
[10:45] <seb128> czajkowski, hey, no idea, sorry
[10:46] <didrocks> czajkowski: not really sure either, if it's free software, there is linuxfr.org
[10:46] <didrocks> and you can use ubuntu-party.org/ubuntu-fr (I can help for that one) if it's related to ubuntu of course :)
[10:47] <czajkowski> not for Ubuntu this time :) it's android atm
[10:47] <czajkowski> https://www.eventbrite.com/e/couchbase-mobile-developer-workshop-paris-tickets-14320275329
[10:47] <czajkowski> thanks for the tips folks
[10:47] <didrocks> yeah, you can try linuxfr.org I guess
[11:03] <czajkowski> cheers
[15:03] <mlankhor1t> noon
[16:19] <mdeslaur> seb128: mind if I split the xchat-indicator package into xchat-gnome-indicator and xchat-indicator?
[16:19] <mdeslaur> I can't maintain compatibility for both gtk2 and gtk3 in the same code
[16:42] <mdeslaur> seb128: actually, scratch that, I can probably do it in the same package
[16:42] <seb128> mdeslaur, hey, ok, your call
[16:42] <mdeslaur> well, if you don't mind, it's a lot easier to split it
[16:43] <seb128> mdeslaur, oh btw, did you notice that xchat-gnome lost translations, did you change the domain? or is that a code bug? (the translations are still installed from langpacks/on disk)
[16:43] <seb128> mdeslaur, do whatever is easier
[16:44] <mdeslaur> seb128: hrm, good question, I'll take a look
[16:44] <seb128> mdeslaur, thanks, I can also have a look if you want, wanted to check if it's known first though
[16:45] <mdeslaur> seb128: oh, if you could check, that would be great
[16:45] <seb128> mdeslaur, ok, let it to me then ;-)
[17:30] <seb128> larsu, hey, what's the status of the new gtk? I know you got sidetracked working on other things, but back to gtk this week? do you need help with the update?
[17:57] <tkamppeter> Does someone know about the Python3 support of pyqt4? There is a python-qt4-dbus but no python3-qt4-dbus for example.
[18:00] <seb128> tkamppeter, Mirv might know, or maybe ask on #ubuntu-devel rather
[18:01] <tkamppeter> Mirv, ^^
[18:01] <tkamppeter> seb128, thanks, I have also posted on ubuntu-devel now.
[18:11] <tedg`> larsu, Looking at the service log here, should this be a cups bug? bug 1393469
[18:11]  * didrocks waves goodbye
[18:21] <Steve_Jobs> anyone have any issues with compiz on MATE?
[18:21] <Steve_Jobs> I can't launch ccsm
[18:22] <Steve_Jobs> getting connection refused when launching ccsm
[18:22] <Steve_Jobs> failed to connect to socket
[18:37] <ogra_> did you install compiz and told mate to use it (is that even possible) ?
[18:38] <ogra_> it definitely doesnt use it by default
[22:41] <robert_ancell> RAOF, did you get your Inbox invite?
[23:23] <RAOF> robert_ancell: I did indeed.